Books for learning how to write "big" programs

[duli]

Hi:
I would like recommendations for books (in any language, not
necessarily C++, C, python) which have walkthroughs for developing
a big software project ? So starting from inception, problem
definition, design, coding and final delivery on a single theme
or application.

Most of the code I have written and books that I have read deal with
toy programs and I am looking for something a bit more
comprehensive. For example, maybe a complete compiler written in C++
for some language, or a complete web server or implementing
..net libraries in some language (just a few examples of the scale of
things I am interested in learning).

Thanks!
Duli.

[Kurt Smith]

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 10:55 AM, duli <du*******@gmail.comwrote:

Hi:
I would like recommendations for books (in any language, not
necessarily C++, C, python) which have walkthroughs for developing
a big software project ? So starting from inception, problem
definition, design, coding and final delivery on a single theme
or application.

The bigger the project, the more likely it is that you'll have
documentation on how to use it (for a language or library, how to use
the features in your program) but to take the time to write up a
dead-tree book on the project's "inception, problem definition,
design, coding and final delivery" is not likely well spent. Anyone
who has the expertise to write such a book would probably be spending
his time working on the next phase of the project itself.

Someone will probably respond with an amazon link to a book that does
exactly what you're asking, in which case, I will stand corrected.
But I'll be surprised.

>
Most of the code I have written and books that I have read deal with
toy programs and I am looking for something a bit more
comprehensive. For example, maybe a complete compiler written in C++
for some language, or a complete web server or implementing
.net libraries in some language (just a few examples of the scale of
things I am interested in learning).

It seems to me the reason toy programs are so prevalent is because
they illustrate a (few) well defined ideas in a short amount of code.
A big project, necessarily, brings together all kinds of stuff, much
of which may not interest the author at all, and so doesn't motivate
him to write a book about it.

Compilers, web servers & .NET libraries are *widely* varying areas.
You may have interest in them all, but to significantly contribute to
any requires a fair amount of expertise and specialization.

The best route I've found to learn how to organize & program large
scale applications is this: find a cutting edge program that interests
you and that is open source. Download its source, and read the code.
Diagram it. Map it out. Read the comments. Join the mailing list
(probably the developer's list), lurk for a while, and ask questions
about why they organized things the way they did. Get the overall big
picture and learn from it. Better yet, find out what pitfalls they
found and avoided (or fell into). Compare their approach &
organization with another competing project. This is the wonder of
open source software -- you have access to everything, and can learn
from all the expertise the developers put into their opus.

You can learn the basics from books, but nothing beats analyzing a
species in the wild.

Kurt

[Dan Upton]

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 1:49 PM, Kurt Smith <kw******@gmail.comwrote:

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 10:55 AM, duli <du*******@gmail.comwrote:

>Hi:
I would like recommendations for books (in any language, not
necessarily C++, C, python) which have walkthroughs for developing
a big software project ? So starting from inception, problem
definition, design, coding and final delivery on a single theme
or application.

The bigger the project, the more likely it is that you'll have
documentation on how to use it (for a language or library, how to use
the features in your program) but to take the time to write up a
dead-tree book on the project's "inception, problem definition,
design, coding and final delivery" is not likely well spent. Anyone
who has the expertise to write such a book would probably be spending
his time working on the next phase of the project itself.

Someone will probably respond with an amazon link to a book that does
exactly what you're asking, in which case, I will stand corrected.
But I'll be surprised.

Well, except for some higher-level textbooks. For instance, I *think*
(not positive) that any of Appel's "Modern Compiler Implementation"
books give a pretty thorough treatment of implementing a compiler
(except for the obvious part where, since it's intended as a textbook,
some gaps are left for the student to fill in). I also think the
recent edition of the Dragon book (Compilers: Principles, Techniques,
and Tools 2nd ed) has a complete compiler frontend in one of the
appendices (although you kind of have to mix and match to figure out
where in the book they've described the parts that lead to writing out
the code shown in the appendix).

-dan

[Simon Brunning]

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 4:55 PM, duli <du*******@gmail.comwrote:

Hi:
I would like recommendations for books (in any language, not
necessarily C++, C, python) which have walkthroughs for developing
a big software project ? So starting from inception, problem
definition, design, coding and final delivery on a single theme
or application.

With regard to the arcitecture of systems rather than process, there
are some good boos liked to from here:
<http://martinfowler.com/articles/enterprisePatterns.html>. Patterns
of Enterprise Application Architecture in particular is a bit of a
classic.

--
Cheers,
Simon B.
si***@brunningonline.net
http://www.brunningonline.net/simon/blog/
GTalk: simon.brunning | MSN: small_values | Yahoo: smallvalues | Twitter: brunns

[c james]

duli wrote:

Hi:
I would like recommendations for books (in any language, not
necessarily C++, C, python) which have walkthroughs for developing
a big software project ? So starting from inception, problem
definition, design, coding and final delivery on a single theme
or application.

Most of the code I have written and books that I have read deal with
toy programs and I am looking for something a bit more
comprehensive. For example, maybe a complete compiler written in C++
for some language, or a complete web server or implementing
.net libraries in some language (just a few examples of the scale of
things I am interested in learning).

Thanks!
Duli.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

"Dreaming in Code" www.dreamingincode.com may fit part of this
description. While it isn't exactly what you desire, it is a good read
on the difficulty in creating excellent software.

[mabbikeel]

On May 27, 9:58*pm, c james <[e-mail]:

duli wrote:

Hi:
I would like recommendations for books (in any language, not
necessarily C++, C, python) which have walkthroughs for developing
a big software project ? So starting from inception, problem
definition, design, coding and final delivery on a single theme
or application.

I'm not sure, but perhaps Code Complete would be one to check out. I
found it a good read on general design and implementation details, and
has some bits on managing complexity.

[s0suk3]

On May 22, 12:49*pm, "Kurt Smith" <[e-mail]:

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 10:55 AM, duli <[e-mail]:

Hi:
I would like recommendations forbooks(in any language, not
necessarily C++, C, python) which have walkthroughs for developing
a big software project ? So starting from inception, problem
definition, design, coding and final delivery on a single theme
or application.

The bigger the project, the more likely it is that you'll have
documentation on how to use it (for a language or library, how to use
the features in your program) but to take the time to write up a
dead-tree book on the project's "inception, problem definition,
design, coding and final delivery" is not likely well spent. *Anyone
who has the expertise to write such a book would probably be spending
his time working on the next phase of the project itself.

Someone will probably respond with an amazon link to a book that does
exactly what you're asking, in which case, I will stand corrected.
But I'll be surprised.

Most of the code I have written andbooksthat I have read deal with
toy programs and I am looking for something a bit more
comprehensive. *For example, maybe a complete compiler written in C++
for some language, or a complete web server or implementing
.net libraries in some language (just a few examples of the scale of
things I am interested in learning).

It seems to me the reason toy programs are so prevalent is because
they illustrate a (few) well defined ideas in a short amount of code.
A big project, necessarily, brings together all kinds of stuff, much
of which may not interest the author at all, and so doesn't motivate
him to write a book about it.

Compilers, web servers & .NET libraries are *widely* varying areas.
You may have interest in them all, but to significantly contribute to
any requires a fair amount of expertise and specialization.

The best route I've found to learn how to organize & program large
scale applications is this: find a cutting edge program that interests
you and that is open source. *Download its source, and read the code.
Diagram it. *Map it out. *Read the comments. *Join the mailing list
(probably the developer's list), lurk for a while, and ask questions
about why they organized things the way they did. *Get the overall big
picture and learn from it. *Better yet, find out what pitfalls they
found and avoided (or fell into). *Compare their approach &
organization with another competing project. *This is the wonder of
open source software -- you have access to everything, and can learn
from all the expertise the developers put into their opus.

You can learn the basics frombooks, but nothing beats analyzing a
species in the wild.

I think I have lately understood what you mean, thanks to Programming
Python 3rd Ed by Lutz. It doesn't teach Python itself -- the book aims
to teach Python programming at an application level, but I'm starting
to wonder whether that knowledge can be obtained from any book. The
book goes through over 1500 pages (!) giving small- and medium-sized
example programs and describing their details. Roughly after a couple
of hundred pages I started to feel like all that was trivial (isn't
looking at code and figuring their details what we do in our every-day
programmer lifes?), and then started to feel like it was really
useless. Maybe large-scale programming can only be self-thought in
every day life, am I right?.

[Bob Martin]

in 69148 20080605 140635 s0****@gmail.com wrote:

>On May 22, 12:49=A0pm, "Kurt Smith" <[e-mail]:

>On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 10:55 AM, duli <[e-mail]:

Hi:
I would like recommendations forbooks(in any language, not
necessarily C++, C, python) which have walkthroughs for developing
a big software project ? So starting from inception, problem
definition, design, coding and final delivery on a single theme
or application.

The bigger the project, the more likely it is that you'll have
documentation on how to use it (for a language or library, how to use
the features in your program) but to take the time to write up a
dead-tree book on the project's "inception, problem definition,
design, coding and final delivery" is not likely well spent. =A0Anyone
who has the expertise to write such a book would probably be spending
his time working on the next phase of the project itself.

Someone will probably respond with an amazon link to a book that does
exactly what you're asking, in which case, I will stand corrected.
But I'll be surprised.

Most of the code I have written andbooksthat I have read deal with
toy programs and I am looking for something a bit more
comprehensive. =A0For example, maybe a complete compiler written in C++
for some language, or a complete web server or implementing
.net libraries in some language (just a few examples of the scale of
things I am interested in learning).

It seems to me the reason toy programs are so prevalent is because
they illustrate a (few) well defined ideas in a short amount of code.
A big project, necessarily, brings together all kinds of stuff, much
of which may not interest the author at all, and so doesn't motivate
him to write a book about it.

Compilers, web servers & .NET libraries are *widely* varying areas.
You may have interest in them all, but to significantly contribute to
any requires a fair amount of expertise and specialization.

The best route I've found to learn how to organize & program large
scale applications is this: find a cutting edge program that interests
you and that is open source. =A0Download its source, and read the code.
Diagram it. =A0Map it out. =A0Read the comments. =A0Join the mailing list
(probably the developer's list), lurk for a while, and ask questions
about why they organized things the way they did. =A0Get the overall big
picture and learn from it. =A0Better yet, find out what pitfalls they
found and avoided (or fell into). =A0Compare their approach &
organization with another competing project. =A0This is the wonder of
open source software -- you have access to everything, and can learn
from all the expertise the developers put into their opus.

You can learn the basics frombooks, but nothing beats analyzing a
species in the wild.

I think I have lately understood what you mean, thanks to Programming
Python 3rd Ed by Lutz. It doesn't teach Python itself -- the book aims
to teach Python programming at an application level, but I'm starting
to wonder whether that knowledge can be obtained from any book. The
book goes through over 1500 pages (!) giving small- and medium-sized
example programs and describing their details. Roughly after a couple
of hundred pages I started to feel like all that was trivial (isn't
looking at code and figuring their details what we do in our every-day
programmer lifes?), and then started to feel like it was really
useless. Maybe large-scale programming can only be self-thought in
every day life, am I right?.

Of course.