"private" variables a.k.a. name mangling (WAS: What is print? A function?)

[Steven Bethard]

Philippe C. Martin wrote:

class Debug_Stderr:
__m_text = ''
__m_log_text = None
__m_dbg = None
__m_refresh_count = 0

<rant>

I don't see the benefit in 99.9% of cases for making class variables
like this "private". If you don't want people to use them, simply use
the standard convention[1] for non-public variables:

class Debug_Stderr:
_text = ''
_log_text = None
_dbg = None
_refresh_count = 0

A lot of the time, it actually makes sense to make (at least some of)
the attributes public, e.g.:

class Debug_Stderr:
text = ''
log_text = None
dbg = None
refresh_count = 0

I don't know what all the variables in this specific example are
intended to be, but it certainly seems like something like
'refresh_count' might be useful to clients of the class.

Name mangling is there to keep you from accidentally hiding such an
attribute in a subclass, but how often is this really a danger? Can
someone give me an example of where __-mangling really solved a problem
for them, where a simple leading underscore wouldn't have solved the
same problem?

</rant>

Steve

[1] http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0008.html

[michele.simionato]

>Name mangling is there to keep you from accidentally hiding such an

attribute in a subclass, but how often is this really a danger? Can
someone give me an example of where __-mangling really solved a problemfor them, where a simple leading underscore wouldn't have solved the
same problem?

Look at the "autosuper" implementation on Guido's descrintro paper;
there the
fact that you user __super instead of _super is essential.

However I have written tens of thousands of lines of Python code and
never
needed __protected variables except in a few experimental scripts for
learning purpose. So I agree that the need does not occur often, but it
is still an useful thing to have.
Michele Simionato

[Richie Hindle]

[Steven]

Can someone give me an example of where __-mangling really solved a problem
for them, where a simple leading underscore wouldn't have solved the
same problem?

http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.p...13&r2=1.13.4.1

That's a bugfix to SpamBayes, where I'd inadvertently named an instance
variable '_map' without realising that the base class
(asynchat.async_chat) also had an instance variable of that name. Using
double underscores fixed it, and had I used them from the beginning the
bug would never have cropped up (even if asynchat.async_chat had an
instance variable named '__map', which is the whole point (which you know,
Steven, but others might not)).

--
Richie Hindle
ri****@entrian.com

[Toby Dickenson]

On Tuesday 25 January 2005 12:40, Richie Hindle wrote:

[Steven]

Can someone give me an example of where __-mangling really solved a problem for them, where a simple leading underscore wouldn't have solved the
same problem?

http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.p...13&r2=1.13.4.1
That's a bugfix to SpamBayes, where I'd inadvertently named an instance
variable '_map' without realising that the base class
(asynchat.async_chat) also had an instance variable of that name. Using
double underscores fixed it, and had I used them from the beginning the
bug would never have cropped up (even if asynchat.async_chat had an
instance variable named '__map', which is the whole point (which you know,
Steven, but others might not)).

I have a counterexample. Consider refactoring a class from....

class B(A):
etc

.....into....

class C(A):
etc
class B(C):
etc

Usage of some double-undescore attributes moved from B to the new intermediate
base class C. Unit tests on B still passed, so that change is safe. right?

The problem occured because the double-underscore mangling uses the class
name, but ignores module names. A related project already had a class named C
derived from B (same name - different module). My refactoring caused
aliasing of some originally distinct double-underscore attributes.

--
Toby Dickenson

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[Richie Hindle]

[Toby]

The problem occured because the double-underscore mangling uses the class
name, but ignores module names. A related project already had a class named C
derived from B (same name - different module).

Yikes! A pretty bizarre case, but nasty when it hits. I guess the
double-underscore system can give you a false sense of security.

--
Richie Hindle
ri****@entrian.com

[Steven Bethard]

Toby Dickenson wrote:

I have a counterexample. Consider refactoring a class from....

class B(A):
etc

....into....

class C(A):
etc
class B(C):
etc

Usage of some double-undescore attributes moved from B to the new intermediate
base class C. Unit tests on B still passed, so that change is safe. right?

The problem occured because the double-underscore mangling uses the class
name, but ignores module names. A related project already had a class named C
derived from B (same name - different module). My refactoring caused
aliasing of some originally distinct double-underscore attributes.

Very interesting. I hadn't ever really thought about it, but I guess
this shows that even __-mangling won't solve all of the
attribute-renaming problems...

A somewhat related problem is briefly discussed in Guido's autosuper
example:
http://www.python.org/2.2.3/descrint...class_examples
where a base class derived from a class using autosuper but with the
same name as the superclass might get the wrong self.__super.

Steve