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Access or Visual Studio?

P: n/a
Hi, I'm a bit confused ... when would I rather write an database
application using MS Access and Visual Basic and when (and why) would I
rather write it using Visual Studio .Net?

Is it as easy in Visual Studio to create reports and labels as it's in
Access?`

The advantage of VS.net is that not every user needs Access, right? And
that would eliminate the Access version problem as well I guess.

I've both done stuff in Access as well as asp.net

Thanks!
Jul 21 '05 #1
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63 Replies


P: n/a
"Jerome" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Hi, I'm a bit confused ... when would I rather write an database
application using MS Access and Visual Basic and when (and why) would I
rather write it using Visual Studio .Net?

Is it as easy in Visual Studio to create reports and labels as it's in
Access?`

The advantage of VS.net is that not every user needs Access, right? And
that would eliminate the Access version problem as well I guess.

I've both done stuff in Access as well as asp.net

Thanks!


Access is a vastly superior development platform for database applications:
the cost of development is far lower, and it has wonderful database-centric
features like linked subforms and continuous forms. The only reason to use
anything other than Access to build a database application is if you want it
on the internet, which is something that you just can't do with Access.
Even if you have a large user population or demanding security/resilience
requirements, it's still best to use Access, linked to a sever database
engine such as SQL Server.

If you buy the Office Developer Edition, or whatever Microsoft is calling it
these days, you can freely distribute a run-time version of Access so that
you don't need to buy Access for all your users.
Jul 21 '05 #2

P: n/a
Access should be used as a portible database where large amounts of data is not expected.
SQL Server (Oracle, etc.) should be used for rooted databases where potentially large amounts of data will be used.

VS.NET is not a database. It can connect to an instance of any ODBC database, and I believe that some (maybe all) versions of
VS.NET ship with MSDE version of SQL Server. This is a desktop engine which allows developers to develop database code without
having to purchase full versions of the software.

If your planning on using the database for a website, Access is viable if there will not be large amounts of data, high performance
is not expected in a stressful environment, security roles are not required and the benefits of T-SQL, DTC and Extended Stored Procs
are not required.

Otherwise, think about purchasing a more robust database server.

For the time being, I believe you can use the MSDE version that shipped with VS.NET for development purposes.

Hope it helps.
--
Dave Sexton
dave@www..jwaonline..com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Jerome" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Hi, I'm a bit confused ... when would I rather write an database
application using MS Access and Visual Basic and when (and why) would I
rather write it using Visual Studio .Net?

Is it as easy in Visual Studio to create reports and labels as it's in
Access?`

The advantage of VS.net is that not every user needs Access, right? And
that would eliminate the Access version problem as well I guess.

I've both done stuff in Access as well as asp.net

Thanks!

Jul 21 '05 #3

P: n/a
Brian,

Access is a vastly superior development platform for database
applications:
the cost of development is far lower, and it has wonderful
database-centric
features like linked subforms and continuous forms. The only reason to
use
anything other than Access to build a database application is if you want
it
on the internet, which is something that you just can't do with Access.
Even if you have a large user population or demanding security/resilience
requirements, it's still best to use Access, linked to a sever database
engine such as SQL Server.


How large is your team to build simultanisly applications with?

And how you have reusability implemented with that?

Cor
Jul 21 '05 #4

P: n/a
Access is a monolithic approach. There are many good apps written in Access.
But, once you start including forms, queries, etc., it is hard to divorce
yourself from Access and move up to another backend database, like SQL
Server, as you end up rewriting all of your code.

If you opt for an external solution, using Access as the backend only, you
can switch to another database without much pain.

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA

***********************************************
Think outside the box!
***********************************************
"Jerome" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Hi, I'm a bit confused ... when would I rather write an database
application using MS Access and Visual Basic and when (and why) would I
rather write it using Visual Studio .Net?

Is it as easy in Visual Studio to create reports and labels as it's in
Access?`

The advantage of VS.net is that not every user needs Access, right? And
that would eliminate the Access version problem as well I guess.

I've both done stuff in Access as well as asp.net

Thanks!

Jul 21 '05 #5

P: n/a
I would disagree with you on many points.

1. Access is a horrible platform for large databases. While it can get to a
rather large size, it is a file based DB, which means perf degrades
horribly. I would say 50MB is a good theoretical max, although I have seen
Access DBs in the ridiculous range.

2. Access is great for single developers, but bad for team development. It
is difficult to impossible to get a team working on the same solution,
unless Access is merely a data repository.

3. Access creates monolithic applications, which means there is little
flexibility in distributing the work as your company grows.

Access certainly fits a niche. It has a wonderful designer and allows you to
leverage your work with forms, queries, reports, etc. Much of the work can
be done without a huge amount of code. But, you pay a price, as you lock
yourself into the Access solution. If you later outgrow, you end up
rewriting everything.

I am not knocking Access, as it is a great product, but it definitely has
its limitations. Whether Jerome should use Access or not depends on his
final goal.

Lots of growth - Access as a backend only. Not wise to lock into to Access
forms.
Speed of getting product to market - Access may be the best option, if
Jerome is an Access developer
Application needs to scale - Access as backend, with plans on scaling data
up later (or MSDE from start)

There are other items to consider, of course.

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA

***********************************************
Think outside the box!
***********************************************
"Brian" <bc**@IHATESPAMclara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:11****************@doris.uk.clara.net...
"Jerome" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Hi, I'm a bit confused ... when would I rather write an database
application using MS Access and Visual Basic and when (and why) would I
rather write it using Visual Studio .Net?

Is it as easy in Visual Studio to create reports and labels as it's in
Access?`

The advantage of VS.net is that not every user needs Access, right? And
that would eliminate the Access version problem as well I guess.

I've both done stuff in Access as well as asp.net

Thanks!


Access is a vastly superior development platform for database
applications:
the cost of development is far lower, and it has wonderful
database-centric
features like linked subforms and continuous forms. The only reason to
use
anything other than Access to build a database application is if you want
it
on the internet, which is something that you just can't do with Access.
Even if you have a large user population or demanding security/resilience
requirements, it's still best to use Access, linked to a sever database
engine such as SQL Server.

If you buy the Office Developer Edition, or whatever Microsoft is calling
it
these days, you can freely distribute a run-time version of Access so that
you don't need to buy Access for all your users.

Jul 21 '05 #6

P: n/a

"Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" <No*************@comcast.netNoOSpamM> wrote in
message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
I would disagree with you on many points.

1. Access is a horrible platform for large databases. While it can get to a rather large size, it is a file based DB, which means perf degrades
horribly. I would say 50MB is a good theoretical max, although I have seen
Access DBs in the ridiculous range.

2. Access is great for single developers, but bad for team development. It
is difficult to impossible to get a team working on the same solution,
unless Access is merely a data repository.

3. Access creates monolithic applications, which means there is little
flexibility in distributing the work as your company grows.

Access certainly fits a niche. It has a wonderful designer and allows you to leverage your work with forms, queries, reports, etc. Much of the work can
be done without a huge amount of code. But, you pay a price, as you lock
yourself into the Access solution. If you later outgrow, you end up
rewriting everything.

I am not knocking Access, as it is a great product, but it definitely has
its limitations. Whether Jerome should use Access or not depends on his
final goal.

Lots of growth - Access as a backend only. Not wise to lock into to Access
forms.
Speed of getting product to market - Access may be the best option, if
Jerome is an Access developer
Application needs to scale - Access as backend, with plans on scaling data
up later (or MSDE from start)

There are other items to consider, of course.

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA

***********************************************
Think outside the box!
***********************************************


1. "it is a file based DB"

You are talking specifically here about Jet databases. What you say is not
correct, I have live Access/Jet applications running just fine for years at
database sizes approaching 1Gb. Not a problem at all, you just need to
design 'em right. What IS ridiculous is your suggestion of a theoretical
maximum of 50Mb, and I cannot imagine what you base such a silly claim on.

Nonetheless, if you do expect to exceed the capabilities of a Jet database
(which is possible in many ways, not just in terms of size e.g. you may have
security/resilience requirements which Jet simply can't meet) then (as I
believe I mentioned) Access makes an excellent client to server database
engines such as SQL Server or Oracle.

2. "Access is great for single developers, but bad for team development.
It
is difficult to impossible to get a team working on the same solution,
unless Access is merely a data repository.

Sorry, you lost me here, it's perfectly straightforward to have different
people working on different front-end areas and then to integrate them.

3. "Access creates monolithic applications, which means there is little
flexibility in distributing the work as your company grows."

You are going to have to explain that one a bit better. Access as a client
to a server database engine is every bit as scalable as any two-tier
client-server architecture using the same database engine. You seem to be
stuck on Jet again.

4. "But, you pay a price, as you lock
yourself into the Access solution. If you later outgrow, you end up
rewriting everything."

See above re Access as a client to server database engines.

5. "I am not knocking Access, as it is a great product, but it definitely
has
its limitations. Whether Jerome should use Access or not depends on his
final goal"

Jet, whilst an excellent product for the right purpose, certainly does have
limitations. Access as a client to a server database engine is limited only
by the server (unless you are big enough to need a three-or-more-tier
architecture, or you are looking to distribute your app across the internet
which I already said Access is no good at).

6. "Not wise to lock into to Access forms."

How is that any less wise than locking in to, say, dotnet Windows Forms?
You've got to build your clients in something, and, as soon as you make that
decision, hey presto, you are locked in.

7. "Speed of getting product to market"

What's your point here? All other things being equal, a database
application will take, quite literally, a fraction of the time to develop in
Access as compared to Windows Forms in dotnet.





Jul 21 '05 #7

P: n/a

"Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" <No*************@comcast.netNoOSpamM> wrote in
message news:uZ*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Access is a monolithic approach. There are many good apps written in Access. But, once you start including forms, queries, etc., it is hard to divorce
yourself from Access and move up to another backend database, like SQL
Server, as you end up rewriting all of your code.

If you opt for an external solution, using Access as the backend only, you
can switch to another database without much pain.

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA


See my other reply, that is just so not true.
Jul 21 '05 #8

P: n/a
"Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" <No*************@comcast.netNoOSpamM> wrote in
message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
I would disagree with you on many points.

1. Access is a horrible platform for large databases. While it can get to
a rather large size, it is a file based DB, which means perf degrades
horribly. I would say 50MB is a good theoretical max, although I have seen
Access DBs in the ridiculous range.


Depends upon how you design it. I currently have a client running a split
ACCESS database product over a LAN, where the backend file is almost 100MB,
with up to 15 concurrent users.
--

Ken Snell
<MS ACCESS MVP>
Jul 21 '05 #9

P: n/a
"Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" <No*************@comcast.netNoOSpamM> wrote in
message news:uZ*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Access is a monolithic approach. There are many good apps written in Access. But, once you start including forms, queries, etc., it is hard to divorce
yourself from Access and move up to another backend database, like SQL
Server, as you end up rewriting all of your code.

If you opt for an external solution, using Access as the backend only, you
can switch to another database without much pain.


Not true at all. I have several apps that made the move from Access to
SQL-Server with only a few hours of testing. Some of my apps have required
no code changes at all, others benefited from using some pass-through
queries to stored procedures. Still others were written with adp code and
used SQL-Server views and stored procs directly. Larry Linson, one of the
Access MVPs has worked almost exclusively on Access front-ends to Server
based back-ends. Unless there are a large number of users or a need to use a
web app, there is no reason to ever use anything but Access as a front-end.
Most database apps are small and never need anything but Access as a
back-end either. Anyone who uses anything other than Access to write
thick-client front ends is wasting his time and his client's money. I
suspect that there are some who may argue with this, but they probably
haven't been working for the kind of clients that Access benefits most, nor
do they have significant business process experience to go with their coding
skills.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Microsoft Access
Free Access downloads:
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access
Jul 21 '05 #10

P: n/a
I've worked with teams of as many as 6 developers building large
applications for small numbers of users. With competent project management
there were no problems at all. With incompetence, even 2 developers is 2 too
many. As far as reuseability goes, I can't speak for others, but most of my
code (maybe 75 to 80%) is reuseable.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Microsoft Access
Free Access downloads:
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access

"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:Ob**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Brian,

Access is a vastly superior development platform for database
applications:
the cost of development is far lower, and it has wonderful
database-centric
features like linked subforms and continuous forms. The only reason to
use
anything other than Access to build a database application is if you want it
on the internet, which is something that you just can't do with Access.
Even if you have a large user population or demanding security/resilience requirements, it's still best to use Access, linked to a sever database
engine such as SQL Server.


How large is your team to build simultanisly applications with?

And how you have reusability implemented with that?

Cor

Jul 21 '05 #11

P: n/a
Hi,

I disagree with the idea that once you start developing forms in Access, its
difficult to move the backend up to SQL. Depending on how the app is build,
its not very difficult at all to upsize an Access application from using JET
to SQL.

If youre talking about completely moving away from Access front-end
development, yeah, then youd have to rewrite a lot of your code. But its
the same situation if you were to abandon .NET forms as your front end too.
However, one advantage of using .NET approach is you can properly layer your
application so that if you do decide to change the front end, it can be a
lot easier to handle situations where the front-end changes. Access doesnt
easily allow you to structure your projects to promote reuse. But in a
smaller, ad-hoc database project its probably fastest to develop.

My biggest hassle with Access development involve handling deployments of
front-end and Office versioning issues. As far as how easy it is to do
reports, look into Sql Reporting Services, it can import existing Access
reports. Its pretty easy to use (dont know about labels tho). But theres
nothing stopping you from building your database app using .NET, and having
an Access db solely for queries/reports/labels.

I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for multiuser
app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. I read recently that
electronic voting machines used JET, and almost fell out of my chair...

HTH,
Premier JiangZemin

"Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" <No*************@comcast.netNoOSpamM> wrote in
message news:uZ*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Access is a monolithic approach. There are many good apps written in
Access. But, once you start including forms, queries, etc., it is hard to
divorce yourself from Access and move up to another backend database, like
SQL Server, as you end up rewriting all of your code.

If you opt for an external solution, using Access as the backend only, you
can switch to another database without much pain.

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA

***********************************************
Think outside the box!
***********************************************
"Jerome" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Hi, I'm a bit confused ... when would I rather write an database
application using MS Access and Visual Basic and when (and why) would I
rather write it using Visual Studio .Net?

Is it as easy in Visual Studio to create reports and labels as it's in
Access?`

The advantage of VS.net is that not every user needs Access, right? And
that would eliminate the Access version problem as well I guess.

I've both done stuff in Access as well as asp.net

Thanks!



Jul 21 '05 #12

P: n/a
"Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" <No*************@comcast.netNoOSpamM> wrote in
message news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
I would disagree with you on many points.

1. Access is a horrible platform for large databases. While it can get to a rather large size, it is a file based DB, which means perf degrades
horribly. I would say 50MB is a good theoretical max, although I have seen
Access DBs in the ridiculous range.
I have seen them in the ridiculous range too, and they run fine if well
designed. I had a client several years ago that experienced her first
corruption of one of the 80 Access 2.0 databases she had hung off a single
front end. Once I fixed it she went happily on. Size: 30GB
2. Access is great for single developers, but bad for team development. It
is difficult to impossible to get a team working on the same solution,
unless Access is merely a data repository.
As I said elsewhere, I've worked with a team of 6. I know of other
developers that use Source-safe, but I've never found it necessary.
3. Access creates monolithic applications, which means there is little
flexibility in distributing the work as your company grows.


I've not had any problems, my databases are distributed by the server. As a
user logs on he gets the front-ends he needs.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Microsoft Access
Free Access downloads:
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access
Jul 21 '05 #13

P: n/a
You wrote:
<q>
I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for multiuser
app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. I read recently that
electronic voting machines used JET, and almost fell out of my chair...
</q>

Why?

Susan

"JiangZemin" <fo*********@example.com> wrote in message
news:uR**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Hi,

I disagree with the idea that once you start developing forms in Access,
its
difficult to move the backend up to SQL. Depending on how the app is
build,
its not very difficult at all to upsize an Access application from using
JET
to SQL.

If youre talking about completely moving away from Access front-end
development, yeah, then youd have to rewrite a lot of your code. But its
the same situation if you were to abandon .NET forms as your front end
too.
However, one advantage of using .NET approach is you can properly layer
your
application so that if you do decide to change the front end, it can be a
lot easier to handle situations where the front-end changes. Access
doesnt
easily allow you to structure your projects to promote reuse. But in a
smaller, ad-hoc database project its probably fastest to develop.

My biggest hassle with Access development involve handling deployments of
front-end and Office versioning issues. As far as how easy it is to do
reports, look into Sql Reporting Services, it can import existing Access
reports. Its pretty easy to use (dont know about labels tho). But
theres
nothing stopping you from building your database app using .NET, and
having
an Access db solely for queries/reports/labels.

I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for multiuser
app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. I read recently that
electronic voting machines used JET, and almost fell out of my chair...

HTH,
Premier JiangZemin

"Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" <No*************@comcast.netNoOSpamM> wrote
in
message news:uZ*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Access is a monolithic approach. There are many good apps written in
Access. But, once you start including forms, queries, etc., it is hard to
divorce yourself from Access and move up to another backend database,
like
SQL Server, as you end up rewriting all of your code.

If you opt for an external solution, using Access as the backend only,
you
can switch to another database without much pain.

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA

***********************************************
Think outside the box!
***********************************************
"Jerome" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Hi, I'm a bit confused ... when would I rather write an database
application using MS Access and Visual Basic and when (and why) would I
rather write it using Visual Studio .Net?

Is it as easy in Visual Studio to create reports and labels as it's in
Access?`

The advantage of VS.net is that not every user needs Access, right? And
that would eliminate the Access version problem as well I guess.

I've both done stuff in Access as well as asp.net

Thanks!



Jul 21 '05 #14

P: n/a
Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
except for Greg should be using Access,
and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access has its
place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office users/developers
in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.

While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat out-of-date (I
can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in all that
he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can be used
to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no licensing fee
for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The Jet
engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are based upon
the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
databases which require a large concurrent number of users.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" <No*************@comcast.netNoOSpamM> wrote in
message news:uZ*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Access is a monolithic approach. There are many good apps written in
Access. But, once you start including forms, queries, etc., it is hard to
divorce yourself from Access and move up to another backend database, like
SQL Server, as you end up rewriting all of your code.

If you opt for an external solution, using Access as the backend only, you
can switch to another database without much pain.

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA

***********************************************
Think outside the box!
***********************************************
"Jerome" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Hi, I'm a bit confused ... when would I rather write an database
application using MS Access and Visual Basic and when (and why) would I
rather write it using Visual Studio .Net?

Is it as easy in Visual Studio to create reports and labels as it's in
Access?`

The advantage of VS.net is that not every user needs Access, right? And
that would eliminate the Access version problem as well I guess.

I've both done stuff in Access as well as asp.net

Thanks!


Jul 21 '05 #15

P: n/a

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
except for Greg should be using Access,
and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access has its place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office users/developers in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.

While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat out-of-date (I can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in all that he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can be used to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no licensing fee for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The Jet
engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are based upon
the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
databases which require a large concurrent number of users.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.


You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above trolling
newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.
Jul 21 '05 #16

P: n/a

"JiangZemin" <fo*********@example.com> wrote in message
news:uR**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for multiuser
app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP.


That's going to come as a big surprise for those millions of competent and
knowledgeable people worldwide who are happily doing exactly that.

As with any endeavour, you need to know what you are doing. You need to
know how to design your application and it's environment to minimise the
potential problems. You need to understand that some risks will remain, and
you need to decide whether they are acceptable for your application.
Multiple intra-day backups are quite possible, so that the risk of data loss
through database corruption can be reduced to a very short time span indeed.
Security is a big issue: it's not good enough in Access, so if that's a
problem for you, then use a server backend.

I'm astonished at the number of people prepared to pontificate here about
the limitations of Access when clearly they don't know the first thing about
it.
Jul 21 '05 #17

P: n/a
Kevin,
Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
except for Greg should be using Access,
What do you mean with that sentence above? Do you mean that Greg is not
allowed to give comments?
and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.


This give me the idea that you probably never made an ASP page?

I can assure you that using VBS is the same programming or whatever other
kind of programming (In my opinion is VBA not that different from VBS, it
has some additions)..

This discussion goes the same as we have seen in a discussion a month ago
about Delphi and .Net programming. We see people stating things who probably
have forever only used one of both.

Access is a widely and too full statifaction used development tool. I have
not used it enough to give any comment on it what is "better".

In my opinion will it depend on the situation where it has to be used and
the knowledge of the ones who use the tools.

Just my thought,

Cor
Jul 21 '05 #18

P: n/a
Jerome wrote:
Hi, I'm a bit confused ... when would I rather write an database
application using MS Access and Visual Basic and when (and why) would I
rather write it using Visual Studio .Net?

Is it as easy in Visual Studio to create reports and labels as it's in
Access?`

The advantage of VS.net is that not every user needs Access, right? And
that would eliminate the Access version problem as well I guess.

I've both done stuff in Access as well as asp.net

Thanks!

Thanks everybody for the information! Even though the debate got a
little heated it seems ...

I'm still not entirely sure but I think I'll stay with Access as a
front-end to my SQL Server DB since it has so many useful report and
label wizards (which are a pain to emulate in Visual Studio?).

I'd thought about Visual Studio because I had to code some ASP.NET web
pages and thought that if the data connection is the same in Visual
Studio I could use that new-gained knowledge and 'be free' of Access and
its version 'problem' since I would be creating independent applications.

Hm, I'm gonna read some more first about Visual Studio and where it
really fits in!

Thanks again.
Jul 21 '05 #19

P: n/a
Hi, let me clarify what i mean by "multiuser", i mean several dozen
concurrent users and up. This assumes that the Access application is
designed correctly of course. Which i think maybe the root of a lot of
conflicting opinions here. Even more than .NET development, theres a very
wide range of skill among Access developers. Just as an inexperienced
ASP.NET programmer might build a horrible web application and then blame
ASP.NET itself for its failings, the same thing is even more prone to happen
in Access, precisely because its so easy to slap together a form that can do
something useful. Unfortunately this leads to a lot of terribly designed
Access apps which many of us have had to deal with, because the guy in
Accounting who put this neat database together probably didnt care too much
about relational table design, security, handling ongoing deployments, code
reuse, backups, transactions, or concurrency.

In other words it probably takes as much skill and effort to build a
properly designed Access application as it does a properly designed .NET
application. In fact it might be easier to write a .NET/SQL application
which includes those items just mentioned, except for Access experts who have
learned how to address those issues. The problem is one of perception
because with Access its so much easier to build horrible database
applications that seem to work, and thus there are a lot more of them around.

JMHO,
idi_amin/Premier JiangZemin
-.NET guy who uses Access all the time, enduring the laughter of Oracle and
SQL DBAs

"SusanV" wrote:
You wrote:
<q>
I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for multiuser
app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. I read recently that
electronic voting machines used JET, and almost fell out of my chair...
</q>

Why?

Susan

"JiangZemin" <fo*********@example.com> wrote in message
news:uR**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Hi,

I disagree with the idea that once you start developing forms in Access,
its
difficult to move the backend up to SQL. Depending on how the app is
build,
its not very difficult at all to upsize an Access application from using
JET
to SQL.

If youre talking about completely moving away from Access front-end
development, yeah, then youd have to rewrite a lot of your code. But its
the same situation if you were to abandon .NET forms as your front end
too.
However, one advantage of using .NET approach is you can properly layer
your
application so that if you do decide to change the front end, it can be a
lot easier to handle situations where the front-end changes. Access
doesnt
easily allow you to structure your projects to promote reuse. But in a
smaller, ad-hoc database project its probably fastest to develop.

My biggest hassle with Access development involve handling deployments of
front-end and Office versioning issues. As far as how easy it is to do
reports, look into Sql Reporting Services, it can import existing Access
reports. Its pretty easy to use (dont know about labels tho). But
theres
nothing stopping you from building your database app using .NET, and
having
an Access db solely for queries/reports/labels.

I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for multiuser
app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. I read recently that
electronic voting machines used JET, and almost fell out of my chair...

HTH,
Premier JiangZemin

"Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" <No*************@comcast.netNoOSpamM> wrote
in
message news:uZ*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
Access is a monolithic approach. There are many good apps written in
Access. But, once you start including forms, queries, etc., it is hard to
divorce yourself from Access and move up to another backend database,
like
SQL Server, as you end up rewriting all of your code.

If you opt for an external solution, using Access as the backend only,
you
can switch to another database without much pain.

--
Gregory A. Beamer
MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA

***********************************************
Think outside the box!
***********************************************
"Jerome" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Hi, I'm a bit confused ... when would I rather write an database
application using MS Access and Visual Basic and when (and why) would I
rather write it using Visual Studio .Net?

Is it as easy in Visual Studio to create reports and labels as it's in
Access?`

The advantage of VS.net is that not every user needs Access, right? And
that would eliminate the Access version problem as well I guess.

I've both done stuff in Access as well as asp.net

Thanks!



Jul 21 '05 #20

P: n/a
Thanks for the clarification, but can one simply learn as they go in .NET?
I've got some VB.Net and some C++, but both of those were VERY difficult to
learn - never mind actually put into real-world use. Access may not be the
be-all-end-all, but pretty much anyone with half a brain can at least learn
by doing, and it sure beats nothing at all. IMHO for a small office it's
ideal, especially when resources for software, hardware, training and
support are minimal.

Just my 2 cents...

Susan

"idi_amin" <id*****@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:9A**********************************@microsof t.com...
Hi, let me clarify what i mean by "multiuser", i mean several dozen
concurrent users and up. This assumes that the Access application is
designed correctly of course. Which i think maybe the root of a lot of
conflicting opinions here. Even more than .NET development, theres a very
wide range of skill among Access developers. Just as an inexperienced
ASP.NET programmer might build a horrible web application and then blame
ASP.NET itself for its failings, the same thing is even more prone to
happen
in Access, precisely because its so easy to slap together a form that can
do
something useful. Unfortunately this leads to a lot of terribly designed
Access apps which many of us have had to deal with, because the guy in
Accounting who put this neat database together probably didnt care too
much
about relational table design, security, handling ongoing deployments,
code
reuse, backups, transactions, or concurrency.

In other words it probably takes as much skill and effort to build a
properly designed Access application as it does a properly designed .NET
application. In fact it might be easier to write a .NET/SQL application
which includes those items just mentioned, except for Access experts who
have
learned how to address those issues. The problem is one of perception
because with Access its so much easier to build horrible database
applications that seem to work, and thus there are a lot more of them
around.

JMHO,
idi_amin/Premier JiangZemin
-.NET guy who uses Access all the time, enduring the laughter of Oracle
and
SQL DBAs

"SusanV" wrote:
You wrote:
<q>
I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for
multiuser
app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. I read recently that
electronic voting machines used JET, and almost fell out of my chair...
</q>

Why?

Susan

"JiangZemin" <fo*********@example.com> wrote in message
news:uR**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Hi,
>
> I disagree with the idea that once you start developing forms in
> Access,
> its
> difficult to move the backend up to SQL. Depending on how the app is
> build,
> its not very difficult at all to upsize an Access application from
> using
> JET
> to SQL.
>
> If youre talking about completely moving away from Access front-end
> development, yeah, then youd have to rewrite a lot of your code. But
> its
> the same situation if you were to abandon .NET forms as your front end
> too.
> However, one advantage of using .NET approach is you can properly layer
> your
> application so that if you do decide to change the front end, it can be
> a
> lot easier to handle situations where the front-end changes. Access
> doesnt
> easily allow you to structure your projects to promote reuse. But in
> a
> smaller, ad-hoc database project its probably fastest to develop.
>
> My biggest hassle with Access development involve handling deployments
> of
> front-end and Office versioning issues. As far as how easy it is to do
> reports, look into Sql Reporting Services, it can import existing
> Access
> reports. Its pretty easy to use (dont know about labels tho). But
> theres
> nothing stopping you from building your database app using .NET, and
> having
> an Access db solely for queries/reports/labels.
>
> I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for
> multiuser
> app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. I read recently that
> electronic voting machines used JET, and almost fell out of my chair...
>
> HTH,
> Premier JiangZemin
>
> "Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" <No*************@comcast.netNoOSpamM>
> wrote
> in
> message news:uZ*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>> Access is a monolithic approach. There are many good apps written in
>> Access. But, once you start including forms, queries, etc., it is hard
>> to
>> divorce yourself from Access and move up to another backend database,
>> like
>> SQL Server, as you end up rewriting all of your code.
>>
>> If you opt for an external solution, using Access as the backend only,
>> you
>> can switch to another database without much pain.
>>
>> --
>> Gregory A. Beamer
>> MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA
>>
>> ***********************************************
>> Think outside the box!
>> ***********************************************
>> "Jerome" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>>> Hi, I'm a bit confused ... when would I rather write an database
>>> application using MS Access and Visual Basic and when (and why) would
>>> I
>>> rather write it using Visual Studio .Net?
>>>
>>> Is it as easy in Visual Studio to create reports and labels as it's
>>> in
>>> Access?`
>>>
>>> The advantage of VS.net is that not every user needs Access, right?
>>> And
>>> that would eliminate the Access version problem as well I guess.
>>>
>>> I've both done stuff in Access as well as asp.net
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>
>
>


Jul 21 '05 #21

P: n/a
re:
I'm astonished at the number of people prepared to
pontificate here about the limitations of Access when
clearly they don't know the first thing about it.
Particularly when the message is cross-posted to dotnet newsgroups.

Give us a frigging break !

If the topic is Access, please discuss it in the Access newsgroups,
unless the topic refers to using Access in the .Net Framework environment.

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"Brian" <bc**@IHATESPAMclara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:11***************@doris.uk.clara.net...
"JiangZemin" <fo*********@example.com> wrote in message
news:uR**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for
multiuser
app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP.


That's going to come as a big surprise for those millions of competent and
knowledgeable people worldwide who are happily doing exactly that.

As with any endeavour, you need to know what you are doing. You need to
know how to design your application and it's environment to minimise the
potential problems. You need to understand that some risks will remain,
and
you need to decide whether they are acceptable for your application.
Multiple intra-day backups are quite possible, so that the risk of data
loss
through database corruption can be reduced to a very short time span
indeed.
Security is a big issue: it's not good enough in Access, so if that's a
problem for you, then use a server backend.

I'm astonished at the number of people prepared to pontificate here about
the limitations of Access when clearly they don't know the first thing
about
it.

Jul 21 '05 #22

P: n/a
"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:%2******************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Kevin,
Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
except for Greg should be using Access,
What do you mean with that sentence above? Do you mean that Greg is not
allowed to give comments?
and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.


This give me the idea that you probably never made an ASP page?

I can assure you that using VBS is the same programming or whatever other
kind of programming (In my opinion is VBA not that different from VBS, it
has some additions)..

This discussion goes the same as we have seen in a discussion a month ago
about Delphi and .Net programming. We see people stating things who

probably have forever only used one of both.

Access is a widely and too full statifaction used development tool. I have
not used it enough to give any comment on it what is "better".

In my opinion will it depend on the situation where it has to be used and
the knowledge of the ones who use the tools.

Just my thought,

Cor


Indeed. The most complicated stuff I ever wrote in any flavour of VB I
originally developed as classes in VBA. When someone wanted the
functionality as a DLL (for use on their web server) the classes converted
to VB6 with virtually no code changes whatsoever. Conversely, I often get
VB code and classes from free source code sites and convert them very easily
for use in Access.

Maybe Kevin thinks that programming in any flavour of VB is not real
programming. However, since he is a self-confessed dotnet developer, this
seems unlikely: he should be quite used to the notion that what you get to
program these days is not a computer, it's what Microsoft wants you to see,
filtered through any number of layers of their infernal bloatware. None of
it is real programming, not like wot we used to do in the old days, with
proper compilers and real binaries and so on. Ah, happy days.

If Kevin wants to come over all macho and do real programming, he'll have to
convert to the Linux/open source crowd. Kinda hard to put food on the
table, though. Or, he could just shut up and accept that the best tool for
the job is the best tool for the job, and who the hell cares whether it's
"programming" according to some half-baked definition or other.
Jul 21 '05 #23

P: n/a
"Jerome" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Thanks everybody for the information! Even though the debate got a
little heated it seems ...

I'm still not entirely sure but I think I'll stay with Access as a
front-end to my SQL Server DB since it has so many useful report and
label wizards (which are a pain to emulate in Visual Studio?).

I'd thought about Visual Studio because I had to code some ASP.NET web
pages and thought that if the data connection is the same in Visual
Studio I could use that new-gained knowledge and 'be free' of Access and
its version 'problem' since I would be creating independent applications.

Hm, I'm gonna read some more first about Visual Studio and where it
really fits in!

Thanks again.


Hehehe, if you are worried about version problems, just wait and see what
happens when the dotnet framework has been through a few incarnations.

Don't be fooled by the fact that your dotnet app has the suffix "exe". A
freestanding binary program it is not. In fact, it is so far from being a
freestanding binary program that you have to use an obfuscator to deter
people from nicking your code!
Jul 21 '05 #24

P: n/a
Jerome,

Where it real fits direct in, is when you are using applications not
dedicated for one client, using Internet, using PDA's, using hugh and/or
more at once and all types of databases, having endless amount of users,
have high security issues, etc etc,

However telling that because of your question would mean that there is no
business for one of those. And we have seen that that is not.

Just my opinon.

Cor
Jul 21 '05 #25

P: n/a

"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:ux**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
re:
I'm astonished at the number of people prepared to
pontificate here about the limitations of Access when
clearly they don't know the first thing about it.


Particularly when the message is cross-posted to dotnet newsgroups.

Give us a frigging break !

If the topic is Access, please discuss it in the Access newsgroups,
unless the topic refers to using Access in the .Net Framework environment.

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================


I did not notice that it was cross-posted - it wasn't me wot done it, it was
the OP! Whilst that explains the presence of all you rabid dotnet-o-philes
on the thread, my point still stands: people really shouldn't express
opinions on something they know nothing about!
Jul 21 '05 #26

P: n/a
Juan,

I am from the dotNet newsgroups, I find it an interesting discussion.
Therefore in my opinion is this very good use of the UseNet crosspost
facility.

Cor
Jul 21 '05 #27

P: n/a
re:
I am from the dotNet newsgroups
That's no excuse for cross-posting.

re:I find it an interesting discussion.
If you do, please post your opinions in the Access newsgroups.

Thank you.
We have enough posting volume here as it is.

If anybody is interested in the militations of Access,
in a sense not necessarily related to the .Net Framework,
they should be oerfectly able to find the Access newsgroups
to research or post anything they choose.

re: Therefore in my opinion is this very good use of the UseNet crosspost
facility.
It was a *lousy* use of cross-posting.
Please don't foist your lazyness on the rest of us.

I know it's hard to be organized,
but you should make a habit of that.

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:eR**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl... Juan,

I am from the dotNet newsgroups, I find it an interesting discussion.
Therefore in my opinion is this very good use of the UseNet crosspost
facility.

Cor

Jul 21 '05 #28

P: n/a
"Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" <bc**@IHATESPAMclara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:11***************@doris.uk.clara.net...

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
except for Greg should be using Access,
and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access has

its
place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office

users/developers
in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.

While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat out-of-date

(I
can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in all

that
he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can be

used
to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no licensing

fee
for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The Jet
engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are based
upon
the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
databases which require a large concurrent number of users.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.


You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above trolling
newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.

Jul 21 '05 #29

P: n/a
> I did not notice that it was cross-posted - it wasn't me wot done it, it
was
the OP! Whilst that explains the presence of all you rabid
dotnet-o-philes
on the thread, my point still stands: people really shouldn't express
opinions on something they know nothing about!
Physician: Heal Thyself.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" <bc**@IHATESPAMclara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:11****************@dyke.uk.clara.net...
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:ux**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
re:
> I'm astonished at the number of people prepared to
> pontificate here about the limitations of Access when
> clearly they don't know the first thing about it.


Particularly when the message is cross-posted to dotnet newsgroups.

Give us a frigging break !

If the topic is Access, please discuss it in the Access newsgroups,
unless the topic refers to using Access in the .Net Framework
environment.

Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================


I did not notice that it was cross-posted - it wasn't me wot done it, it
was
the OP! Whilst that explains the presence of all you rabid
dotnet-o-philes
on the thread, my point still stands: people really shouldn't express
opinions on something they know nothing about!

Jul 21 '05 #30

P: n/a
>> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
except for Greg should be using Access,
What do you mean with that sentence above? Do you mean that Greg is not
allowed to give comments?


Yeah, that's what I meant.... ;-P

Sheesh!

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:%2******************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... Kevin,
Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
except for Greg should be using Access,


What do you mean with that sentence above? Do you mean that Greg is not
allowed to give comments?
and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.


This give me the idea that you probably never made an ASP page?

I can assure you that using VBS is the same programming or whatever other
kind of programming (In my opinion is VBA not that different from VBS, it
has some additions)..

This discussion goes the same as we have seen in a discussion a month ago
about Delphi and .Net programming. We see people stating things who
probably have forever only used one of both.

Access is a widely and too full statifaction used development tool. I have
not used it enough to give any comment on it what is "better".

In my opinion will it depend on the situation where it has to be used and
the knowledge of the ones who use the tools.

Just my thought,

Cor

Jul 21 '05 #31

P: n/a
Do you program with that logic?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" <bc**@IHATESPAMclara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:11****************@dyke.uk.clara.net...
"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:%2******************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Kevin,
> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
> except for Greg should be using Access,


What do you mean with that sentence above? Do you mean that Greg is not
allowed to give comments?
> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all
> the
> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.


This give me the idea that you probably never made an ASP page?

I can assure you that using VBS is the same programming or whatever other
kind of programming (In my opinion is VBA not that different from VBS, it
has some additions)..

This discussion goes the same as we have seen in a discussion a month ago
about Delphi and .Net programming. We see people stating things who

probably
have forever only used one of both.

Access is a widely and too full statifaction used development tool. I
have
not used it enough to give any comment on it what is "better".

In my opinion will it depend on the situation where it has to be used and
the knowledge of the ones who use the tools.

Just my thought,

Cor


Indeed. The most complicated stuff I ever wrote in any flavour of VB I
originally developed as classes in VBA. When someone wanted the
functionality as a DLL (for use on their web server) the classes converted
to VB6 with virtually no code changes whatsoever. Conversely, I often get
VB code and classes from free source code sites and convert them very
easily
for use in Access.

Maybe Kevin thinks that programming in any flavour of VB is not real
programming. However, since he is a self-confessed dotnet developer, this
seems unlikely: he should be quite used to the notion that what you get to
program these days is not a computer, it's what Microsoft wants you to
see,
filtered through any number of layers of their infernal bloatware. None
of
it is real programming, not like wot we used to do in the old days, with
proper compilers and real binaries and so on. Ah, happy days.

If Kevin wants to come over all macho and do real programming, he'll have
to
convert to the Linux/open source crowd. Kinda hard to put food on the
table, though. Or, he could just shut up and accept that the best tool
for
the job is the best tool for the job, and who the hell cares whether it's
"programming" according to some half-baked definition or other.

Jul 21 '05 #32

P: n/a
> In other words it probably takes as much skill and effort to build a
properly designed Access application as it does a properly designed .NET
application. In fact it might be easier to write a .NET/SQL application
which includes those items just mentioned, except for Access experts who
have
learned how to address those issues. The problem is one of perception
because with Access its so much easier to build horrible database
applications that seem to work, and thus there are a lot more of them
around.
Interesting point of view. An Access database application is just that: a
database application. Now, let's have a look at the CLR - tens of thousands
of classes that do nearly everything that can be done with a computer, a
network, a portable device, etc. So, in essence you're saying that it takes
as much skill to build a house as it takes to architect a skyscraper,
perhaps more?

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"idi_amin" <id*****@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:9A**********************************@microsof t.com... Hi, let me clarify what i mean by "multiuser", i mean several dozen
concurrent users and up. This assumes that the Access application is
designed correctly of course. Which i think maybe the root of a lot of
conflicting opinions here. Even more than .NET development, theres a very
wide range of skill among Access developers. Just as an inexperienced
ASP.NET programmer might build a horrible web application and then blame
ASP.NET itself for its failings, the same thing is even more prone to
happen
in Access, precisely because its so easy to slap together a form that can
do
something useful. Unfortunately this leads to a lot of terribly designed
Access apps which many of us have had to deal with, because the guy in
Accounting who put this neat database together probably didnt care too
much
about relational table design, security, handling ongoing deployments,
code
reuse, backups, transactions, or concurrency.

In other words it probably takes as much skill and effort to build a
properly designed Access application as it does a properly designed .NET
application. In fact it might be easier to write a .NET/SQL application
which includes those items just mentioned, except for Access experts who
have
learned how to address those issues. The problem is one of perception
because with Access its so much easier to build horrible database
applications that seem to work, and thus there are a lot more of them
around.

JMHO,
idi_amin/Premier JiangZemin
-.NET guy who uses Access all the time, enduring the laughter of Oracle
and
SQL DBAs

"SusanV" wrote:
You wrote:
<q>
I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for
multiuser
app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. I read recently that
electronic voting machines used JET, and almost fell out of my chair...
</q>

Why?

Susan

"JiangZemin" <fo*********@example.com> wrote in message
news:uR**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Hi,
>
> I disagree with the idea that once you start developing forms in
> Access,
> its
> difficult to move the backend up to SQL. Depending on how the app is
> build,
> its not very difficult at all to upsize an Access application from
> using
> JET
> to SQL.
>
> If youre talking about completely moving away from Access front-end
> development, yeah, then youd have to rewrite a lot of your code. But
> its
> the same situation if you were to abandon .NET forms as your front end
> too.
> However, one advantage of using .NET approach is you can properly layer
> your
> application so that if you do decide to change the front end, it can be
> a
> lot easier to handle situations where the front-end changes. Access
> doesnt
> easily allow you to structure your projects to promote reuse. But in
> a
> smaller, ad-hoc database project its probably fastest to develop.
>
> My biggest hassle with Access development involve handling deployments
> of
> front-end and Office versioning issues. As far as how easy it is to do
> reports, look into Sql Reporting Services, it can import existing
> Access
> reports. Its pretty easy to use (dont know about labels tho). But
> theres
> nothing stopping you from building your database app using .NET, and
> having
> an Access db solely for queries/reports/labels.
>
> I think anyone who would use Access/JET as backend DB engine for
> multiuser
> app in business setting has to be stopped ASAP. I read recently that
> electronic voting machines used JET, and almost fell out of my chair...
>
> HTH,
> Premier JiangZemin
>
> "Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" <No*************@comcast.netNoOSpamM>
> wrote
> in
> message news:uZ*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>> Access is a monolithic approach. There are many good apps written in
>> Access. But, once you start including forms, queries, etc., it is hard
>> to
>> divorce yourself from Access and move up to another backend database,
>> like
>> SQL Server, as you end up rewriting all of your code.
>>
>> If you opt for an external solution, using Access as the backend only,
>> you
>> can switch to another database without much pain.
>>
>> --
>> Gregory A. Beamer
>> MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA
>>
>> ***********************************************
>> Think outside the box!
>> ***********************************************
>> "Jerome" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:ey**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>>> Hi, I'm a bit confused ... when would I rather write an database
>>> application using MS Access and Visual Basic and when (and why) would
>>> I
>>> rather write it using Visual Studio .Net?
>>>
>>> Is it as easy in Visual Studio to create reports and labels as it's
>>> in
>>> Access?`
>>>
>>> The advantage of VS.net is that not every user needs Access, right?
>>> And
>>> that would eliminate the Access version problem as well I guess.
>>>
>>> I've both done stuff in Access as well as asp.net
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>
>
>


Jul 21 '05 #33

P: n/a
"Cowboy (Gregory A. Beamer)" <No*************@comcast.netNoOSpamM> wrote in
message news:%

1. Access is a horrible platform for large databases. While it can get to
a rather large size, it is a file based DB, which means perf degrades
horribly.
Actually, in single user mode a JET based file application is faster then
sql
server. I am going to repeat this again just in case you think this was a
type-o. The JET engine is faster then sql server!!! Anywhere from 30 to
200% faster. Remember, sql server has a ton of
overhead, and JET simply scrapes data right off of the disk drive.

Further, you seem to imply that you don't have a choice of what data engine
to use. Remember, ms-access is just a ide. It is a ide like visual studio.
You write code, you build forms, you build class objects. The data engine
you use with ms-access can be JET, or it can be sq server. There are
companies
out there with 1000 simultaneous users of ms-access all hitting the SAME
database. The fact of the matter sql server runs no different if you code
in c++, or use ms-access (they both are using the same oleDB library).
You can scale the applications to 100's of users in all cases when you use
sql
server.

However, the fact remains that JET grabs records faster then sql
server (we taking same hardware....no network involved here). In fact, to
normally grab data from sql server you still (on a local host) have to grab
data through a socket connection, and that alone is going to slow things
down
(further, sql serve has to wrap most things in a transaction, and also use
timestamp
fields to ensure things are ATOMIC).
2. Access is great for single developers, but bad for team development. It
is difficult to impossible to get a team working on the same solution,
unless Access is merely a data repository.
Remember, the coding environment in ms-access is the same as VB6. You can
create calls objects in ms-access, and this does help in the re-usability
area. Also, Visual Source Safe also works with ms-access also. So, I am just
point out that ms-access is not a database at all, and all of the
development trappings such as using visual source safe etc does work with
ms-access. If you want to use VSS, and have users check in/ check out
code, the you can do so with ms-access. So, I think for this discussion
it
is impart to distinguish between the
database part, and the IDE that ms-access is.

The database part that you use with ms-access can be the file based JET
engine, or you can use sql server.

Having said the above, as a project does get larger, then coding approaches
used, and things like considering a 3 tried approach to the application does
favor using Visual studio, source code control, and a language like .net, or
even c++. However, to use c++ for writing a average business application
is kind like writing some calculations in assembler to add a few numbers
when you got Excel sitting on your desktop. However, for real-time fluid
calculations
that c, or assembler would be a good choice.

Note that the same arguments can be made
against VB6 in this regards of project size. So, yes, I do agree with you
that project size is most certainly a consideration here. I have to agree
that as a project scales to MANY developers, then the fact of reduced
development speed becomes less of a factor, and things like using a OO
approach in terms of design and modeling code most certainly does
become an advantage in other IDE's. (.net for example!!) However, it also
needs pointing out that the MAJORITY of bussing applications written today
do NOT HUGELY benefit form the large use of a OO approach. However,
more and more business applications do benefit from a general OO approach.
With
..net gaining traction in the marketplace, then the OO approach becomes more
common.

3. Access creates monolithic applications, which means there is little
flexibility in distributing the work as your company grows.
This is a interesting aspect. Virtually all ms-access developers now split
their
code/forms away from the data part. You create what is called a mde in
ms-access
(essentially a compiled version of the application). This means to update a
user, you simply send them the new mde, and they copy it over the old one
Since the application has no data..then this works great. In fact,
ms-access developers have enjoyed this x-copy development process for years.
You now hear today .net developers singing the praise of x-copy development.
I
just last week deployed a whole version of my software to 5 different
companies (and, they were in a different city then me!!). To deploy this new
software, all the users had to do was copy the application to their
computers..and away they went (I did wrap the mde in a Inno install..and
send them a .exe to run). However, this band new "singing" of the praise
by .net developers of how you can simply copy the application part to the
users
computer and it runs has been a feature, and part of the landscape for
ms-access developers for a long time. There is no question that many
arm-chair ms-access developers make the mistake of not splitting out the
code/forms/logic from the data, .but as a general rule, ms-access developers
do not keep the data part, and application part as one monolithic
application.
This decision is not the fault of the ms-access design, but that of the
developers using the product. So, while .net users sing the praise of x-copy
development and deployment...we had that great feature for years!

Access certainly fits a niche. It has a wonderful designer and allows you
to leverage your work with forms, queries, reports, etc. Much of the work
can be done without a huge amount of code. But, you pay a price, as you
lock yourself into the Access solution. If you later outgrow, you end up
rewriting everything.


The outgrow part you mention has to be defined here. Do you mean the data
part, or the application complex part? The data part is easy, you just move
the back end data part to Oracle, sql-server, or whatever your favorite
data
engine tends to be. The application part is a fair issue you bring up. Once
again, as a developer I do commonly now use, and built class objects in
ms-access. However, you can't use ms-access to build the middle tier in a 3
tiered applications (apparently, there is a com add in for ms-access..but I
don't think it is appropriate use here). And, ms-access does support xml,
and
also has the soap tool kit add-in. With the soap kit, ms-access can now
easily consume ..net services.

I have to say that the MAJORITY of small business applications written don't
need more
then a few developers. However, if the product you are crating is to be
widely distributed, and you want a reduction in dependencies, and you expect
to have a large development team, then ms-access is a weak choice. However,
it is VERY difficult to outgrow ms-access in terms of a large database
(since
you just move the data to a server based product).

Once again, I am not saying ms-access should be use for all projects. And,to
be fair, ms-access works well in a two tiered approach, but not much well in
a 3 tiered approach. However, again, if you only got 30 -200 users, then
a two tiered approach (ms-access/sql server back end), then sql server and
ms-access will hardly break out a sweat. For larger user counts, and
applications with larger amounts of business logic, then better environments
most certainly do exist then ms-access. The only question that remains is
when to choose what tools for the right job. As always, this is about the
right horse for the right course...
--
Albert D. Kallal (Access MVP)
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
pl*****************@msn.com
http://www.members.shaw.ca/AlbertKallal

Jul 21 '05 #34

P: n/a
#2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :

"deliberately provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards, usually
with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:e4**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
"Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" <bc**@IHATESPAMclara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:11***************@doris.uk.clara.net...

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
except for Greg should be using Access,
and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access has
its
place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office

users/developers
in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.

While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat
out-of-date (I
can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in all

that
he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can be

used
to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no
licensing fee
for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The

Jet engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are based
upon
the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
databases which require a large concurrent number of users.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.


You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above trolling
newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.


Jul 21 '05 #35

P: n/a
Yep, spot on.

"gerry" <ge**@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:un**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
#2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :

"deliberately provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards, usually with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:e4**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
"Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" <bc**@IHATESPAMclara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:11***************@doris.uk.clara.net...

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread> except for Greg should be using Access,
> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access has its
> place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
> users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
users/developers
> in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.
>
> While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat out-of-date (I
> can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in all that
> he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can be used
> to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no licensing fee
> for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The Jet> engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are based
> upon
> the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
> databases which require a large concurrent number of users.
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> What You Seek Is What You Get.

You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above trolling newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.



Jul 21 '05 #36

P: n/a
You assume a lot. Hope you don't program with that logic.

I've been an MVP for almost 10 years, and have been helping people for free
on the newsgroups for longer than that. My remarks were made in the interest
and for the benefit of those who would hear and heed them, not for you, or
for any other self-appointed hall monitors.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"gerry" <ge**@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:un**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
#2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :

"deliberately provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards,
usually
with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:e4**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
"Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" <bc**@IHATESPAMclara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:11***************@doris.uk.clara.net...
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
> news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this
>> thread
>> except for Greg should be using Access,
>> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses
>> VBA,
>> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the >> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access has > its
>> place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
>> users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
> users/developers
>> in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.
>>
>> While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat out-of-date > (I
>> can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in
>> all
> that
>> he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can
>> be
> used
>> to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no licensing > fee
>> for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The Jet >> engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are based
>> upon
>> the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
>> databases which require a large concurrent number of users.
>>
>> --
>> HTH,
>>
>> Kevin Spencer
>> Microsoft MVP
>> .Net Developer
>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>
> You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above trolling
> newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.
>
>



Jul 21 '05 #37

P: n/a
Coming from you, Brian, I'll take that as a compliment. Please don't
disappoint me by saying anything nice or helpful.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" <bc**@IHATESPAMclara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:11****************@demeter.uk.clara.net...
Yep, spot on.

"gerry" <ge**@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:un**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
#2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :

"deliberately provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards,

usually
with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:e4**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> "Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>
> "Brian" <bc**@IHATESPAMclara.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:11***************@doris.uk.clara.net...
> >
> > "Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
> > news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> >> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread > >> except for Greg should be using Access,
> >> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA, > >> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all

the
> >> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access

has
> > its
> >> place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
> >> users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
> > users/developers
> >> in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.
> >>
> >> While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat

out-of-date
> > (I
> >> can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in all > > that
> >> he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can be > > used
> >> to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no

licensing
> > fee
> >> for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The

Jet
> >> engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are
> >> based
> >> upon
> >> the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
> >> databases which require a large concurrent number of users.
> >>
> >> --
> >> HTH,
> >>
> >> Kevin Spencer
> >> Microsoft MVP
> >> .Net Developer
> >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
> >
> > You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above trolling > > newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.
> >
> >
>
>



Jul 21 '05 #38

P: n/a
"Juan T. Llibre" <no***********@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

That's no excuse for cross-posting.


Hi Juan,

I seriously considered removing the .NET groups, but that would have
eliminated the audience that I was answering. For the same reason, I see
that you didn't eliminate them either. :-p <g>

After all, this is a great forum for the discussion of ideas and the
elimination of misinterpreted notions.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Microsoft Access
Free Access Downloads
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access
Jul 21 '05 #39

P: n/a
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.


VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor part
of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am in
the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've been
pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and VBA
without any real expertise there.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Microsoft Access
Free Access Downloads
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access
Jul 21 '05 #40

P: n/a
> VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
part
of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am
in
the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've been
pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and VBA
without any real expertise there.
A bit thin-skinned when it comes to our favorite program, aren't we? I
haven't seen any "denigration" of Access or VBA in this thread. Any
"denigration" that you perceive is just that: perceived. Here in the ASP.Net
newsgroup, we are a slightly different breeed than you folks. We talk about
capabilities and limitations as properties, not as "good" or "bad." Nobody
here has any axe to grind against Access, which, incidentally, I've been
using for about 10 years now. Access is a tool., As such, it has properties,
capabilities, and limitations, just as any other tool. Even Microsoft
doesn't recommend using Access for Internet applications, and if anyone ever
loved Access, it would be Microsoft.

As for expertise, well, as I said, I've been using Microsoft products for
many years. I've developed for DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 9X, NT, Windows
2000, XP, Server 2003, and Longhorn. I have co-authored 2 books on databases
and SQL, written articles for MSDN, know C, C++, C#, VBScript, VBA, VB6,
VB.Net, Java, JavaScript, a smattering of Perl. I have written ASP
applications, ASP.Net applications, Windows Forms applications in both
native machine and .Net, Batch Files, Scripts, Macros, Services, XML Web
Services, managed Direct3D applications, console applications, Access
applications, Visual FoxPro applications, applications that use Modems,
serial ports, TCP ports, FTP clients and services, UDP clients and services,
and, well, darn, I don't have them all written down somewhere, but let's
hope that's sufficient.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Arvin Meyer" <a@m.com> wrote in message
news:O4**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... "Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.


VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
part
of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am
in
the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've been
pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and VBA
without any real expertise there.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Microsoft Access
Free Access Downloads
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access

Jul 21 '05 #41

P: n/a
excuse me ?
what exactly did I assume ?
what 'logic' are you referring to ?
who said I programmed at all ?

I don't see any relationship between what I posted and your reply so I have
to assume that you took some offence to my post.
you posted the link , I just quoted it back.
how does that definition not apply to what you said ?

and who gives a rats ass how long you've been an mvp - I have been watching
your posts on these groups for long enough and would call most of what I see
from you as preaching and brow beating as opposed to any kind of helping.

self appointed hall monitor ??? seems that you are the one trying to tell
people who can post what on the groups and who's opinion is trash because it
doesn't happen to coincide with your own.

HTH ? ya right

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
You assume a lot. Hope you don't program with that logic.

I've been an MVP for almost 10 years, and have been helping people for free on the newsgroups for longer than that. My remarks were made in the interest and for the benefit of those who would hear and heed them, not for you, or
for any other self-appointed hall monitors.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"gerry" <ge**@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:un**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
#2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :

"deliberately provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards,
usually
with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:e4**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
"Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Brian" <bc**@IHATESPAMclara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:11***************@doris.uk.clara.net...
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
> news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this
>> thread
>> except for Greg should be using Access,
>> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses
>> VBA,
>> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all

the
>> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access

has
> its
>> place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
>> users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
> users/developers
>> in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.
>>
>> While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat

out-of-date
> (I
>> can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in
>> all
> that
>> he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can
>> be
> used
>> to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no

licensing
> fee
>> for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The

Jet
>> engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are based >> upon
>> the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
>> databases which require a large concurrent number of users.
>>
>> --
>> HTH,
>>
>> Kevin Spencer
>> Microsoft MVP
>> .Net Developer
>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>
> You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above trolling > newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.
>
>



Jul 21 '05 #42

P: n/a
> and who gives a rats ass how long you've been an mvp - I have been
watching
your posts on these groups for long enough
Afraid not kid. You're not old enough to have seen all of my posts.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"gerry" <ge**@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eT**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl... excuse me ?
what exactly did I assume ?
what 'logic' are you referring to ?
who said I programmed at all ?

I don't see any relationship between what I posted and your reply so I
have
to assume that you took some offence to my post.
you posted the link , I just quoted it back.
how does that definition not apply to what you said ?

and who gives a rats ass how long you've been an mvp - I have been
watching
your posts on these groups for long enough and would call most of what I
see
from you as preaching and brow beating as opposed to any kind of helping.

self appointed hall monitor ??? seems that you are the one trying to tell
people who can post what on the groups and who's opinion is trash because
it
doesn't happen to coincide with your own.

HTH ? ya right

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
You assume a lot. Hope you don't program with that logic.

I've been an MVP for almost 10 years, and have been helping people for

free
on the newsgroups for longer than that. My remarks were made in the

interest
and for the benefit of those who would hear and heed them, not for you,
or
for any other self-appointed hall monitors.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"gerry" <ge**@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:un**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> #2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :
>
> "deliberately provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards,
> usually
> with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
> 4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"
>
>
>
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
> news:e4**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> "Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:
>>
>> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling
>>
>> --
>> HTH,
>>
>> Kevin Spencer
>> Microsoft MVP
>> .Net Developer
>> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>>
>> "Brian" <bc**@IHATESPAMclara.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:11***************@doris.uk.clara.net...
>> >
>> > "Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
>> > news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> >> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this
>> >> thread
>> >> except for Greg should be using Access,
>> >> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses
>> >> VBA,
>> >> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with
>> >> all
> the
>> >> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.
>> >> Access
> has
>> > its
>> >> place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
>> >> users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
>> > users/developers
>> >> in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.
>> >>
>> >> While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat
> out-of-date
>> > (I
>> >> can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in
>> >> all
>> > that
>> >> he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database
>> >> can
>> >> be
>> > used
>> >> to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no
> licensing
>> > fee
>> >> for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app.
>> >> The
> Jet
>> >> engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are based >> >> upon
>> >> the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or
>> >> databases which require a large concurrent number of users.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> HTH,
>> >>
>> >> Kevin Spencer
>> >> Microsoft MVP
>> >> .Net Developer
>> >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>> >
>> > You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above trolling >> > newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>



Jul 21 '05 #43

P: n/a
I'd say that your implication earlier in the thread that programming in VBA
is not programming IS denigrating Access and Access developers. Based on
your followup to Arvin's post (and some others), now everyone can see you're
a pedantic self promoting blowhard too....if they didn't know it already.

--
Paul Overway
Logico Solutions
http://www.logico-solutions.com
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:uy**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
part
of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am
in
the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
been
pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and
VBA
without any real expertise there.


A bit thin-skinned when it comes to our favorite program, aren't we? I
haven't seen any "denigration" of Access or VBA in this thread. Any
"denigration" that you perceive is just that: perceived. Here in the
ASP.Net newsgroup, we are a slightly different breeed than you folks. We
talk about capabilities and limitations as properties, not as "good" or
"bad." Nobody here has any axe to grind against Access, which,
incidentally, I've been using for about 10 years now. Access is a tool.,
As such, it has properties, capabilities, and limitations, just as any
other tool. Even Microsoft doesn't recommend using Access for Internet
applications, and if anyone ever loved Access, it would be Microsoft.

As for expertise, well, as I said, I've been using Microsoft products for
many years. I've developed for DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 9X, NT, Windows
2000, XP, Server 2003, and Longhorn. I have co-authored 2 books on
databases and SQL, written articles for MSDN, know C, C++, C#, VBScript,
VBA, VB6, VB.Net, Java, JavaScript, a smattering of Perl. I have written
ASP applications, ASP.Net applications, Windows Forms applications in both
native machine and .Net, Batch Files, Scripts, Macros, Services, XML Web
Services, managed Direct3D applications, console applications, Access
applications, Visual FoxPro applications, applications that use Modems,
serial ports, TCP ports, FTP clients and services, UDP clients and
services, and, well, darn, I don't have them all written down somewhere,
but let's hope that's sufficient.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Arvin Meyer" <a@m.com> wrote in message
news:O4**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.


VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
part
of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am
in
the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
been
pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and
VBA
without any real expertise there.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Microsoft Access
Free Access Downloads
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access


Jul 21 '05 #44

P: n/a
I'm afraid you're attributing your own subjective opinion to "everyone."

As to my "implication," only I would know what I implied. Again, you are
projecting your opinion on someone else (myself). And since only I know what
I implied, I can tell you for a fact that you are wrong.

As you are not a regular on the newsgroups which I use every day, and have
no other knowledge of me than this thread, I would have to say that your
opinion speaks for itself.

Now go and pick on someone smaller than you.

--
Your pedantic self-promiting blowhard,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Paul Overway" <pa**@I.hate.spam.logico-solutions.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
I'd say that your implication earlier in the thread that programming in
VBA is not programming IS denigrating Access and Access developers. Based
on your followup to Arvin's post (and some others), now everyone can see
you're a pedantic self promoting blowhard too....if they didn't know it
already.

--
Paul Overway
Logico Solutions
http://www.logico-solutions.com
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:uy**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
part
of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am
in
the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
been
pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and
VBA
without any real expertise there.


A bit thin-skinned when it comes to our favorite program, aren't we? I
haven't seen any "denigration" of Access or VBA in this thread. Any
"denigration" that you perceive is just that: perceived. Here in the
ASP.Net newsgroup, we are a slightly different breeed than you folks. We
talk about capabilities and limitations as properties, not as "good" or
"bad." Nobody here has any axe to grind against Access, which,
incidentally, I've been using for about 10 years now. Access is a tool.,
As such, it has properties, capabilities, and limitations, just as any
other tool. Even Microsoft doesn't recommend using Access for Internet
applications, and if anyone ever loved Access, it would be Microsoft.

As for expertise, well, as I said, I've been using Microsoft products for
many years. I've developed for DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 9X, NT, Windows
2000, XP, Server 2003, and Longhorn. I have co-authored 2 books on
databases and SQL, written articles for MSDN, know C, C++, C#, VBScript,
VBA, VB6, VB.Net, Java, JavaScript, a smattering of Perl. I have written
ASP applications, ASP.Net applications, Windows Forms applications in
both native machine and .Net, Batch Files, Scripts, Macros, Services, XML
Web Services, managed Direct3D applications, console applications, Access
applications, Visual FoxPro applications, applications that use Modems,
serial ports, TCP ports, FTP clients and services, UDP clients and
services, and, well, darn, I don't have them all written down somewhere,
but let's hope that's sufficient.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Arvin Meyer" <a@m.com> wrote in message
news:O4**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all
the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.

VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
part
of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I am
in
the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
been
pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and
VBA
without any real expertise there.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Microsoft Access
Free Access Downloads
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access



Jul 21 '05 #45

P: n/a
I agree with you, Access is ideal for many scenarios. There is nothing wrong
with the tool itself (at least the client IDE/reporting/querying part, i
think there are a number of issues with using it as a backend DB, but even
those may not matter depending on your needs).

It seems to me that the Access vs. VS.NET "argument" is between two equally
valid and effective toolsets, just different paradigms re: deployments and
thick vs. thin client. In that light it is silly to point to one paradigm or
another as "not being a serious development environment".

-idi_amin

"SusanV" wrote:
Thanks for the clarification, but can one simply learn as they go in .NET?
I've got some VB.Net and some C++, but both of those were VERY difficult to
learn - never mind actually put into real-world use. Access may not be the
be-all-end-all, but pretty much anyone with half a brain can at least learn
by doing, and it sure beats nothing at all. IMHO for a small office it's
ideal, especially when resources for software, hardware, training and
support are minimal.

Just my 2 cents...

Susan


Jul 21 '05 #46

P: n/a
Perceptions and projections aside, if your statment below doesn't denigrate
Access and Access developers, you need writing lessons, a course on
manners....or maybe Haldol.

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this thread
except for Greg should be using Access,
and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses VBA,
which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access has
its place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
users/developers in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.

--
Paul Overway
Logico Solutions
http://www.logico-solutions.com
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:OZ**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl... I'm afraid you're attributing your own subjective opinion to "everyone."

As to my "implication," only I would know what I implied. Again, you are
projecting your opinion on someone else (myself). And since only I know
what I implied, I can tell you for a fact that you are wrong.

As you are not a regular on the newsgroups which I use every day, and have
no other knowledge of me than this thread, I would have to say that your
opinion speaks for itself.

Now go and pick on someone smaller than you.

--
Your pedantic self-promiting blowhard,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Paul Overway" <pa**@I.hate.spam.logico-solutions.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
I'd say that your implication earlier in the thread that programming in
VBA is not programming IS denigrating Access and Access developers.
Based on your followup to Arvin's post (and some others), now everyone
can see you're a pedantic self promoting blowhard too....if they didn't
know it already.

--
Paul Overway
Logico Solutions
http://www.logico-solutions.com
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:uy**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
part
of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I
am in
the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
been
pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and
VBA
without any real expertise there.

A bit thin-skinned when it comes to our favorite program, aren't we? I
haven't seen any "denigration" of Access or VBA in this thread. Any
"denigration" that you perceive is just that: perceived. Here in the
ASP.Net newsgroup, we are a slightly different breeed than you folks. We
talk about capabilities and limitations as properties, not as "good" or
"bad." Nobody here has any axe to grind against Access, which,
incidentally, I've been using for about 10 years now. Access is a tool.,
As such, it has properties, capabilities, and limitations, just as any
other tool. Even Microsoft doesn't recommend using Access for Internet
applications, and if anyone ever loved Access, it would be Microsoft.

As for expertise, well, as I said, I've been using Microsoft products
for many years. I've developed for DOS, Windows 3.1, Windows 9X, NT,
Windows 2000, XP, Server 2003, and Longhorn. I have co-authored 2 books
on databases and SQL, written articles for MSDN, know C, C++, C#,
VBScript, VBA, VB6, VB.Net, Java, JavaScript, a smattering of Perl. I
have written ASP applications, ASP.Net applications, Windows Forms
applications in both native machine and .Net, Batch Files, Scripts,
Macros, Services, XML Web Services, managed Direct3D applications,
console applications, Access applications, Visual FoxPro applications,
applications that use Modems, serial ports, TCP ports, FTP clients and
services, UDP clients and services, and, well, darn, I don't have them
all written down somewhere, but let's hope that's sufficient.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"Arvin Meyer" <a@m.com> wrote in message
news:O4**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

> It uses VBA,
> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all
> the
> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails.

VBA is essentially VB with the *addition* of extensions for each
application. It does contain some macro elements, but they are a minor
part
of it, mostly for doing simple tasks like opening a form or report. I
am in
the middle of learning some VB.NET right now. You will notice that my
arguments do not pontificate on the details of the .NET languages or
platform. That's because I do not have expertise there. Instead, I've
been
pointing out the fallacies of those who choose to denigrate Access and
VBA
without any real expertise there.
--
Arvin Meyer, MCP, MVP
Microsoft Access
Free Access Downloads
http://www.datastrat.com
http://www.mvps.org/access



Jul 21 '05 #47

P: n/a
Which "Access vs. VS.NET argument" ?

How can there BE an "Access vs. VS.NET argument" ?


Juan T. Llibre
ASP.NET MVP
http://asp.net.do/foros/
Foros de ASP.NET en Español
Ven, y hablemos de ASP.NET...
======================

"idi_amin" <id*****@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:3D**********************************@microsof t.com...
I agree with you, Access is ideal for many scenarios. There is nothing
wrong
with the tool itself (at least the client IDE/reporting/querying part, i
think there are a number of issues with using it as a backend DB, but even
those may not matter depending on your needs).

It seems to me that the Access vs. VS.NET "argument" is between two
equally
valid and effective toolsets, just different paradigms re: deployments and
thick vs. thin client. In that light it is silly to point to one paradigm
or
another as "not being a serious development environment".

-idi_amin

"SusanV" wrote:
Thanks for the clarification, but can one simply learn as they go in
.NET?
I've got some VB.Net and some C++, but both of those were VERY difficult
to
learn - never mind actually put into real-world use. Access may not be
the
be-all-end-all, but pretty much anyone with half a brain can at least
learn
by doing, and it sure beats nothing at all. IMHO for a small office it's
ideal, especially when resources for software, hardware, training and
support are minimal.

Just my 2 cents...

Susan

Jul 21 '05 #48

P: n/a
This is my answer in working code. If I every get a burst of energy I
will finish
off the label maker.

http://www.geocities.com/jeff_louie/windows_forms.htm

I use both Access and FilemakerPro. I have written corporate database
applications in which I wrote the database file system. I have a RAD
database
application that has been continuously updated and running for 18 years.
I
don't care if you use Access, FileMakerPro or .NET. Each approach has
advantages and disadvantages.

Regards,
Jeff

? Why did the chicken wear a bag over his head when he crossed the road?
A. To hide is pecker ;)

*** Sent via Developersdex http://www.developersdex.com ***
Jul 21 '05 #49

P: n/a
Please don't feed the troll.

"gerry" <ge**@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eT**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
excuse me ?
what exactly did I assume ?
what 'logic' are you referring to ?
who said I programmed at all ?

I don't see any relationship between what I posted and your reply so I have to assume that you took some offence to my post.
you posted the link , I just quoted it back.
how does that definition not apply to what you said ?

and who gives a rats ass how long you've been an mvp - I have been watching your posts on these groups for long enough and would call most of what I see from you as preaching and brow beating as opposed to any kind of helping.

self appointed hall monitor ??? seems that you are the one trying to tell
people who can post what on the groups and who's opinion is trash because it doesn't happen to coincide with your own.

HTH ? ya right

"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
You assume a lot. Hope you don't program with that logic.

I've been an MVP for almost 10 years, and have been helping people for

free
on the newsgroups for longer than that. My remarks were made in the

interest
and for the benefit of those who would hear and heed them, not for you, or
for any other self-appointed hall monitors.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
What You Seek Is What You Get.

"gerry" <ge**@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:un**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
#2 sounds like a pretty appropro definition to me :

"deliberately provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards,
usually
with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.
4umi.com/web/glossary.htm"


"Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
news:e4**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> "Trolling?" Looks like you need a little help with your terminology:
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...efine:Trolling
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> What You Seek Is What You Get.
>
> "Brian" <bc**@IHATESPAMclara.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:11***************@doris.uk.clara.net...
> >
> > "Kevin Spencer" <ke***@DIESPAMMERSDIEtakempis.com> wrote in message
> > news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> >> Here's my recommendation. Everybody who has participated in this
> >> thread
> >> except for Greg should be using Access,
> >> and understand that Access development is not programming. It uses
> >> VBA,
> >> which is a macro language, not a real programming language, with all the
> >> capabilities and complexities that real programming entails. Access has
> > its
> >> place - Microsoft Office. It's an office application, for office
> >> users/devlopers. It was developed specifically with office
> > users/developers
> >> in mind, and is nearly perfect for such users/developers.
> >>
> >> While Greg's estimation of Access's limitations was somewhat
out-of-date
> > (I
> >> can remember when 50MB was the limit), he is essentially correct in> >> all
> > that
> >> he has said. There are certainly places where an Access database can> >> be
> > used
> >> to great efficacy in a LAN or Desktop application. There is no
licensing
> > fee
> >> for an .mdb file, which can be distributed legally with the app. The Jet
> >> engine is fast and clean. but it does have limitations that are

based> >> upon
> >> the intended use of Access, which is NOT for Internet databases, or> >> databases which require a large concurrent number of users.
> >>
> >> --
> >> HTH,
> >>
> >> Kevin Spencer
> >> Microsoft MVP
> >> .Net Developer
> >> What You Seek Is What You Get.
> >
> > You'd have thought that an MVP, of any flavour, would be above trolling> > newsgroups. Hey ho, you live and learn.
> >
> >
>
>



Jul 21 '05 #50

63 Replies

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