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&ensp in a monospaced font

P: n/a
Hi,

I am trying to output some html in monospaced font, and I want spaces to
take up the same width as any other character. i thought this would be easy
for monospaced fonts - surely   and   would both be the same
width?

unfortunately not -   is narrower than other characters and   is
wider :-(

so how do i generate a sequence of normal width spaces?

I can't use the <pretag because there is HTML markup in the output - it's
not only plain text

Andy
Feb 29 '08 #1
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59 Replies


P: n/a
On Feb 29, 9:38 am, "Andy Fish" <ajf...@blueyonder.co.ukwrote:
Hi,

I am trying to output some html in monospaced font, and I want spaces to
take up the same width as any other character. i thought this would be easy
for monospaced fonts - surely &ensp; and &emsp; would both be the same
width?

unfortunately not - &ensp; is narrower than other characters and &emsp; is
wider :-(

so how do i generate a sequence of normal width spaces?

I can't use the <pretag because there is HTML markup in the output - it's
not only plain text

Andy
maybe &nbsp;
Feb 29 '08 #2

P: n/a
Andy Fish wrote:
I can't use the <pretag because there is HTML markup in the output -
it's not only plain text
You can use markup within <pre>.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 30 days, 22:37.]

Bottled Water
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/
Feb 29 '08 #3

P: n/a
On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Andy Fish wrote:
I am trying to output some html in monospaced font, and I want spaces to
take up the same width as any other character. i thought this would be easy
for monospaced fonts - surely &ensp; and &emsp; would both be the same
width?
Some things are meaningless in monospaced fonts. Think of all the
characters that have "zero-width" in their names.
unfortunately not - &ensp; is narrower than other characters and &emsp;
is wider :-(
In *which* font?
It is also possible that the browser takes ensp and emsp
from some other font.

--
In memoriam Alan J. Flavell
http://groups.google.com/groups/sear...Alan.J.Flavell
Feb 29 '08 #4

P: n/a
Andy Fish wrote:
I am trying to output some html in monospaced font, and I want spaces to
take up the same width as any other character. i thought this would be easy
for monospaced fonts - surely &ensp; and &emsp; would both be the same
width?
Why would you think that?
unfortunately not - &ensp; is narrower than other characters and &emsp; is
wider :-(
Of course.
so how do i generate a sequence of normal width spaces?
Something I have done on occasion is user '0' characters where I want
spaces, but with the colour the same as the background, so they look
like spaces.
Feb 29 '08 #5

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Scripsit Andy Fish:
I am trying to output some html in monospaced font,
Do you mean you wish to present HTML markup visibly or audibly on the
page? Then a monospace font would normally be a good idea. I would
suggest using <codemarkup together with a style sheet like
code { font-family: Consolas, "Courier New"; }
to reduce the risk that some poor default monospace font is used.
and I want spaces
to take up the same width as any other character.
A normal space, as well as a no-break space, has the same width as other
characters, when the font is monospace
i thought this
would be easy for monospaced fonts - surely &ensp; and &emsp; would
both be the same width?
What? Why would you use specific-width space characters (which are
poorly supported in fonts) _and_ ask them to have the same width as
other characters? Why would you use them at all?
so how do i generate a sequence of normal width spaces?
By using the SPACE character U+0020 as everyone else.
I can't use the <pretag because there is HTML markup in the output
- it's not only plain text
You have misunderstood the meaning of <pre>, and what else?

The real problem is probably very different from the picture we've got
so far. To avoid wasting more of everyone's time, post the URL.

--
Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

Feb 29 '08 #6

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Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
>
suggest using <codemarkup together with a style sheet like
code { font-family: Consolas, "Courier New"; }
to reduce the risk that some poor default monospace font is used.
I suggest font-family:monospace; and let the user decide whether their
default is "poor". Mine isn't by a long shot.

--
Berg
Feb 29 '08 #7

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In article <Ko********************@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi >,
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jk******@cs.tut.fiwrote:
I would
suggest using <codemarkup together with a style sheet like
code { font-family: Consolas, "Courier New"; }
to reduce the risk that some poor default monospace font is used.
Whenever I have tried this, at least on my Mac, the code looks
too faint (setting a font-weight can fix, but this might make
other alternative fonts for code too bold). It is the 'Courier
New' that is the trouble on my machine at least. The default
'Courier' does not do this. Courier looks fine.

--
dorayme
Feb 29 '08 #8

P: n/a
C A Upsdell wrote:
Something I have done on occasion is user '0' characters where I want
spaces, but with the colour the same as the background, so they look
like spaces.
That must be fun to copy-paste!

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 31 days, 22:46.]

Bottled Water
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/
Mar 1 '08 #9

P: n/a
dorayme wrote:
Jukka K. Korpela <jk******@cs.tut.fiwrote:
>I would
suggest using <codemarkup together with a style sheet like code {
font-family: Consolas, "Courier New"; } to reduce the risk that some
poor default monospace font is used.

Whenever I have tried this, at least on my Mac, the code looks too faint
(setting a font-weight can fix, but this might make other alternative
fonts for code too bold). It is the 'Courier New' that is the trouble on
my machine at least. The default 'Courier' does not do this. Courier
looks fine.
Agreed. Courier New is a horrible font -- very lightweight and hard to
read unless there is a lot of contrast between the font colour and
background colour. The serifs are too pronounced and there is very little
visual difference between l/1 and O/0.

Courier is slightly better -- it's a reasonable weight -- but still not
fantastic for reading as it suffers from Courier New's glyph shape
problems.

In my stylesheets, I'm now specifying:

font-family: "Consolas", "Bitstream Vera Sans Mono", "Andale Mono",
"Monaco", "Lucida Console", monospace;

for monospaced fonts. Virtually all Mac OS 9/X machines will have Andale
Mono or Monoco. Windows Vista machines will have Consolas; earlier Windows
will have Andale Mono or Lucida Console. Most Linux machines should have
Bitstream Vera Sans Mono these days.

Each of those fonts are very readable, smart-looking, sans serif mono
fonts. They all have good visual distinction between 0/O and I/l/1 (except
Lucida Console where there is little difference between 0/O) which makes
them very suitable for reading code.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 31 days, 22:48.]

Bottled Water
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/
Mar 1 '08 #10

P: n/a
C A Upsdell wrote:
>
Something I have done on occasion is user '0' characters where I want
spaces, but with the colour the same as the background, so they look
like spaces.
I bet it sounds great in a screen reader. :-\

--
Berg
Mar 1 '08 #11

P: n/a
Bergamot wrote:
C A Upsdell wrote:
>Something I have done on occasion is user '0' characters where I want
spaces, but with the colour the same as the background, so they look
like spaces.

I bet it sounds great in a screen reader. :-\
Bad, very bad idea...'zero zero zero zero one two three'...

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
Mar 1 '08 #12

P: n/a
Els wrote:
Bergamot wrote:
>Why don't you just let the user decide what's most readable in a
monospace font?

By your logic, we shouldn't add any background or text colour either,
By your logic, we should set absolute font sizes to go with those fonts.
as the user can set that themselves too - what if your webpage is
black on white, while they would have preferred red on blue?
Now we're getting carried away. :)

Don't you get tired of every other web page insisting you use Arial or
Verdana or whatever? Why don't more authors just use the generic
families instead of over specifying everything?

We all make such a big deal about user controlled font sizes, but
default fonts are pretty much totally ignored. :(

--
Berg
Mar 1 '08 #13

P: n/a
Els
Bergamot wrote:
Els wrote:
>Bergamot wrote:
>>Why don't you just let the user decide what's most readable in a
monospace font?

By your logic, we shouldn't add any background or text colour either,

By your logic, we should set absolute font sizes to go with those fonts.
Nope, I'd set relative font-sizes that I think go with the rest of the
page and the purpose, and the user can still resize them, *and* force
their own user stylesheet over mine :-)
>as the user can set that themselves too - what if your webpage is
black on white, while they would have preferred red on blue?

Now we're getting carried away. :)
Really :-)
Don't you get tired of every other web page insisting you use Arial or
Verdana or whatever? Why don't more authors just use the generic
families instead of over specifying everything?
No, I don't get tired of that at all.
Have a look at these pages. Each of them please:
http://www.jasonsantamaria.com/
http://mezzoblue.com/
http://molly.com/
http://mappingtheweb.com/

See how each has a different font?
If you have them on your system, you should have seen Georgia, Lucida
Grande, Verdana and Trebuchet MS.

I'd get tired of seeing my own preferred font on every webpage while I
could be looking at diversity in typography.

And I don't get your "insisting we use Arial or Verdana or whatever".
They don't insist, they suggest. If you really want to have your
internet pages all in Verdana, just write your own stylesheet.
We all make such a big deal about user controlled font sizes, but
default fonts are pretty much totally ignored. :(
Which is a good thing :-)

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
Mar 1 '08 #14

P: n/a
ok maybe I didn't make myself clear

i am using a monospaced font. on one line of the output i have
'abcde'; on the next line I have 'a' followed by 3 spaces followed by
'e'

I want the 'e' in the second line to appear underneath the 'e' in the
first line

if I use a normal space, the 3 spaces are collapsed into one; if I use
an m-width or n-width space, the spaces aren't the same width as
letters; if I use a non-breaking space, this stops the line breaking
(which is not the behaviour I want)

however, you (ant other posters) are right - I didn't realise you can
put other html codes inside a <preblock - so that looks like the
best option to me

Andy
On 29 Feb, 17:36, "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorp...@cs.tut.fiwrote:
Scripsit Andy Fish:
I am trying to output some html in monospaced font,

Do you mean you wish to present HTML markup visibly or audibly on the
page? Then a monospace font would normally be a good idea. I would
suggest using <codemarkup together with a style sheet like
code { font-family: Consolas, "Courier New"; }
to reduce the risk that some poor default monospace font is used.
and I want spaces
to take up the same width as any other character.

A normal space, as well as a no-break space, has the same width as other
characters, when the font is monospace
i thought this
would be easy for monospaced fonts - surely &ensp; and &emsp; would
both be the same width?

What? Why would you use specific-width space characters (which are
poorly supported in fonts) _and_ ask them to have the same width as
other characters? Why would you use them at all?
so how do i generate a sequence of normal width spaces?

By using the SPACE character U+0020 as everyone else.
I can't use the <pretag because there is HTML markup in the output
- it's not only plain text

You have misunderstood the meaning of <pre>, and what else?

The real problem is probably very different from the picture we've got
so far. To avoid wasting more of everyone's time, post the URL.

--
Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Mar 3 '08 #15

P: n/a
Scripsit John Hosking:
aj****@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
- -
>i am using a monospaced font. on one line of the output i have
'abcde'; on the next line I have 'a' followed by 3 spaces followed by
'e'

I want the 'e' in the second line to appear underneath the 'e' in the
first line

Much clearer.
It's still not evident what the problem is. As usual, a URL would
have...
>if I use a normal space, the 3 spaces are collapsed into one; if I
use an m-width or n-width space, the spaces aren't the same width as
letters; if I use a non-breaking space, this stops the line breaking
(which is not the behaviour I want)

Even clearer.
Not to me, really. A few clarifications:

1) There is no "m-width" and "n-width" space. The width of an EM SPACE
equals the font size, by definition, and the width of an EN SPACE is
half of that. Their relationship to the widths of the letters "m" and
"n" is unspecified.

2) Normal spaces do collapse. This can be prevented in different ways,
but not in any evident way in inline text. (white-space: pre-wrap in CSS
would do this, but regarding browser support, "D'Oh!")

3) Whether em spaces, en spaces, or no-break spaces collapse is
explicitly declared unspecified in HTML specifications. In practice they
don't, but if IE 8 or Firefox 4 starts collapsing them, you can only
blame yourself if you relied on their not being collapsed.

4) The no-break space should prevent line breaks before and after. There
are some flaws in this area in browsers when a no-break space is
preceded or followed by a normal space.

But why would it be a _problem_ that line breaks are prevented, if you
want a specific placement of characters? To me, it seems like a
necessary part of a _solution_.
Then how about: <p>abcde</p><p>a&nbsp; &nbsp;e</p?
Since this was said to be computer output, markup like

<pre><samp>abcde
a e</samp></pre>

would appear to be adequate. If this won't do, the OP should explain why
not.
That should give you both the spacing and a possible break. I believe
you'd get the same effect (but with two break possibilities) if you
did: <p>abcde</p><p>a &nbsp; e</p. (Not tested in all browsers.)
By the specifications, "a &nbsp; e" should have one break possibility
only, after the second space. Some browsers get this wrong. But I don't
see a reason for using such an approach.
It's only consecutive spaces that get collapsed.
As I mentioned above, no-break spaces may or may participate in the
collapse party. Currently they don't, but you have been warned:

"This specification does not indicate the behavior, rendering or
otherwise, of space characters other than those explicitly identified
here as white space characters [i.e. space, tab, form feed, zero-width
space]. For this reason, authors should use appropriate elements and
styles to achieve visual formatting effects that involve white space,
rather than space characters."
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/text.html#h-9.1

--
Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

Mar 3 '08 #16

P: n/a
Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
>
3) Whether em spaces, en spaces, or no-break spaces collapse is
explicitly declared unspecified in HTML specifications. In practice they
don't, but if IE 8 or Firefox 4 starts collapsing them, you can only
blame yourself if you relied on their not being collapsed.
Except for the few white space characters for which collapsing is
specifically required, whether *any* character collapses is unspecified.
Yet I'm not going to worry that some day a new browser version will
display "bookkeeper" as "bokeper". I think it's taken for granted that
characters not arbitrarily collapsing with each other is the norm, and
only situations where they do collapse need to be articulated explicitly.
Mar 3 '08 #17

P: n/a
mrcakey wrote:
Both my alma mater and my erstwhile employer mandated the use of two spaces
after a full stop. You'll also see it in many books and magazines.
Old typewrite habits must be hard to break! Like folks who hit TAB to
lead off paragraphs...

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
Mar 3 '08 #18

P: n/a
Scripsit Harlan Messinger:
Except for the few white space characters for which collapsing is
specifically required, whether *any* character collapses is
unspecified.
That's nonsense and you know that.
Yet I'm not going to worry that some day a new browser
version will display "bookkeeper" as "bokeper".
Or as "fhjidsgyuh98erswygt98". This has nothing to do with whitespace
handling. Read the statement in the spec I mentioned. Its intent is not
hard to see.

The point is that space characters cannot be expected to result in any
specific amount of spacing, despite the fact that some of them are
defined as "fixed-width" spaces in character code standards (and
no-break space isn't, by the way, and it's the one we are usually
talking about in this context).

--
Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

Mar 3 '08 #19

P: n/a
On 2008-03-03, Jukka K. Korpela <jk******@cs.tut.fiwrote:
[...]
3) Whether em spaces, en spaces, or no-break spaces collapse is
explicitly declared unspecified in HTML specifications. In practice they
don't, but if IE 8 or Firefox 4 starts collapsing them, you can only
blame yourself if you relied on their not being collapsed.
CSS specifications (CSS 2.1, 16.6.1) do say that the only things that
get collapsed are U+0009, U+000D, U+000A and U+0020. That is to say,
TAB, CR, LF and ordinary space.

The stuff between tags is thought of as anonymous inline elements so
this does cover everything.
Mar 3 '08 #20

P: n/a
Harlan Messinger wrote:
Yet I'm not going to worry that some day a new browser version will
display "bookkeeper" as "bokeper". I think it's taken for granted that
characters not arbitrarily collapsing with each other is the norm, and
only situations where they do collapse need to be articulated explicitly.
<otAre there other English words that contain a consecutive triplet of
doubled letters?
--
Blinky
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
Blinky: http://blinkynet.net

Mar 3 '08 #21

P: n/a
In article <YJ*********************@reader1.news.saunalahti.f i>,
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jk******@cs.tut.fiwrote:
Scripsit Harlan Messinger:
Except for the few white space characters for which collapsing is
specifically required, whether *any* character collapses is
unspecified.

That's nonsense and you know that.
Which is the likelier theory:

1. Harlan Messinger looks about to see what nonsense he can talk,
and cannot resist going for it.

or

2. Jukka K.Korpela looks to see what he can say to cause pain and
offence to someone while he typing just for the sake of it, there
not being an actual need.

--
dorayme
Mar 3 '08 #22

P: n/a
On 03 Mar 2008, Blinky the Shark wrote:
Ed Mullen wrote:
>I understand all of that. But, for those of us who learned to touch
type in 1963 it's nearly impossible to break the habit of hitting the
space bar twice after a period.

It also scans better, in my opinion. I think that's important; I can
single space regardless of my training, and I would if it worked better.
Well just remember that not everybody has the same wierd problems you old
guys have...

--
Neredbojias
http://www.neredbojias.com/
Great sights and sounds
Mar 3 '08 #23

P: n/a
On 2008-03-03, Blinky the Shark <no*****@box.invalidwrote:
Harlan Messinger wrote:
>Yet I'm not going to worry that some day a new browser version will
display "bookkeeper" as "bokeper". I think it's taken for granted that
characters not arbitrarily collapsing with each other is the norm, and
only situations where they do collapse need to be articulated explicitly.

<otAre there other English words that contain a consecutive triplet of
doubled letters?
Good question, the answer is no!

These are all the ones I could find in the Scrabble dictionary of
pointless but high-scoring words and various other word lists I have on
my computer:

bookkeeper
bookkeepers
bookkeeping
bookkeeping

I will leave the regular expression to find them as an exercise to the
reader.

If you count things like "aarrgghh" as words then there are few more.
Mar 3 '08 #24

P: n/a
Blinky the Shark wrote:
Harlan Messinger wrote:
>Yet I'm not going to worry that some day a new browser version will
display "bookkeeper" as "bokeper". I think it's taken for granted that
characters not arbitrarily collapsing with each other is the norm, and
only situations where they do collapse need to be articulated explicitly.

<otAre there other English words that contain a consecutive triplet of
doubled letters?
Bookkeeping.
Mar 3 '08 #25

P: n/a
Ben C wrote:
On 2008-03-03, Blinky the Shark <no*****@box.invalidwrote:
>Harlan Messinger wrote:
>>Yet I'm not going to worry that some day a new browser version will
display "bookkeeper" as "bokeper". I think it's taken for granted that
characters not arbitrarily collapsing with each other is the norm, and
only situations where they do collapse need to be articulated explicitly.
<otAre there other English words that contain a consecutive triplet of
doubled letters?

Good question, the answer is no!

These are all the ones I could find in the Scrabble dictionary of
pointless but high-scoring words and various other word lists I have on
my computer:

bookkeeper
bookkeepers
bookkeeping
bookkeeping

I will leave the regular expression to find them as an exercise to the
reader.
^.*(.)\1(.)\2(.)\3.*$
Mar 3 '08 #26

P: n/a
Neredbojias wrote:
On 03 Mar 2008, Blinky the Shark wrote:
>Ed Mullen wrote:
>>I understand all of that. But, for those of us who learned to touch
type in 1963 it's nearly impossible to break the habit of hitting the
space bar twice after a period.

It also scans better, in my opinion. I think that's important; I can
single space regardless of my training, and I would if it worked better.

Well just remember that not everybody has the same wierd problems you old
guys have...
Yeah, the other day......uh......HEY!

--
Blinky
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
Blinky: http://blinkynet.net

Mar 3 '08 #27

P: n/a
On 03 Mar 2008, Blinky the Shark wrote:
Neredbojias wrote:
>Well just remember that not everybody has the same wierd problems you
old guys have...

Yeah, the other day......uh......HEY!
<grin / Oops, I mean <grin>lips</grin>

--
Neredbojias
http://www.neredbojias.com/
Great sights and sounds
Mar 3 '08 #28

P: n/a
On 2008-03-03, Harlan Messinger <hm*******************@comcast.netwrote:
Ben C wrote:
>On 2008-03-03, Blinky the Shark <no*****@box.invalidwrote:
>>Harlan Messinger wrote:

Yet I'm not going to worry that some day a new browser version will
display "bookkeeper" as "bokeper". I think it's taken for granted that
characters not arbitrarily collapsing with each other is the norm, and
only situations where they do collapse need to be articulated explicitly.
<otAre there other English words that contain a consecutive triplet of
doubled letters?

Good question, the answer is no!

These are all the ones I could find in the Scrabble dictionary of
pointless but high-scoring words and various other word lists I have on
my computer:

bookkeeper
bookkeepers
bookkeeping
bookkeeping

I will leave the regular expression to find them as an exercise to the
reader.

^.*(.)\1(.)\2(.)\3.*$
That's it. I felt compelled to try a Dutch word list for some richer
piicckkings.

aaneennaai
aaneennaaide
aaneennaaiden
aaneennaaien
aaneennaait
aannaai
aannaaide
aannaaiden
aannaaien
aannaaiend
aannaait
aanneem
aanneembaar
aanneembare
aanneemsom
aanneemsommen
aanneemster
aanneemsters
aanneemt
actievoorraad
beheerraad
bevoorraad
bevoorraadde
bevoorraadden
bevoorraadt
borduurraam
buffervoorraad
dooddeel
dooddeelde
dooddeelden
dooddeelt
doorreed
doorrook
doorrookt
doorrookte
doorrookten
doorrookter
doorrooktst
dwaalleer
eerroof
figuurraadsel
figuurraadsels
goederenvoorraad
goudvoorraad
hamstervoorraad
hooggaand
hooggaande
hooggaander
hooggaandere
hooggaandst
hooggaandste
ijzervoorraad
kasvoorraad
koollaag
leeggooi
leeggooide
leeggooiden
leeggooien
leeggooit
leeggoot
maalloon
materiaalleer
mondvoorraad
muntvoorraad
nooddoop
noodvoorraad
overreedde
overreedden
plaaggeest
plaaggeesten
reservevoorraad
restantvoorraad
spreekkoor
spreekuurrooster
steekkaart
steekkaarten
steenkoollaag
straattaal
stuurreep
tamboereerraam
teellaag
toneellaars
toneellaarzen
uiteenneem
uiteenneembaar
uiteenneembare
uiteenneemt
uurrooster
uurroosters
verraadde
verraadden
vertaalloon
voedselvoorraad
voorraad
voorraadadministratie
voorraadaftrek
voorraadbeheer
voorraadbeheersing
voorraadbestand
voorraadbewaking
voorraadboek
voorraadboeken
voorraadcontrole
voorraadgegevens
voorraadhoeveelheden
voorraadhoudende
voorraadhuis
voorraadhuizen
voorraadje
voorraadkaart
voorraadkaarten
voorraadkamer
voorraadkamers
voorraadkast
voorraadkosten
voorraadniveau
voorraadpeil
voorraadrekening
voorraadschuren
voorraadschuur
voorraadtank
voorraadtanks
voorraadvat
voorraadvorming
voorraam
voorreed
vuurrood
vuurroodst
weekkaart
weekkaarten
winkelvoorraad
wintervoorraad
woordvoorraad
woordvoorraaden
zoolleer
Mar 3 '08 #29

P: n/a
Els
Ben C wrote:
On 2008-03-03, Harlan Messinger <hm*******************@comcast.netwrote:
>Ben C wrote:
>>On 2008-03-03, Blinky the Shark <no*****@box.invalidwrote:
Harlan Messinger wrote:

Yet I'm not going to worry that some day a new browser version will
display "bookkeeper" as "bokeper". I think it's taken for granted that
characters not arbitrarily collapsing with each other is the norm, and
only situations where they do collapse need to be articulated explicitly.
<otAre there other English words that contain a consecutive triplet of
doubled letters?

Good question, the answer is no!

These are all the ones I could find in the Scrabble dictionary of
pointless but high-scoring words and various other word lists I have on
my computer:

bookkeeper
bookkeepers
bookkeeping
bookkeeping

I will leave the regular expression to find them as an exercise to the
reader.

^.*(.)\1(.)\2(.)\3.*$

That's it. I felt compelled to try a Dutch word list for some richer
piicckkings.

aaneennaai
aaneennaaide
[snip]

That's cheating though! :-) Dutch even has a word with 8 consonents in
a row... (and yes, it can be pronounced)

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
Mar 3 '08 #30

P: n/a
Els wrote:
Ben C wrote:
>On 2008-03-03, Harlan Messinger <hm*******************@comcast.netwrote:
>>Ben C wrote:
On 2008-03-03, Blinky the Shark <no*****@box.invalidwrote:
Harlan Messinger wrote:
>
>Yet I'm not going to worry that some day a new browser version will
>display "bookkeeper" as "bokeper". I think it's taken for granted that
>characters not arbitrarily collapsing with each other is the norm, and
>only situations where they do collapse need to be articulated explicitly.
<otAre there other English words that contain a consecutive triplet of
doubled letters?

Good question, the answer is no!

These are all the ones I could find in the Scrabble dictionary of
pointless but high-scoring words and various other word lists I have on
my computer:

bookkeeper
bookkeepers
bookkeeping
bookkeeping

I will leave the regular expression to find them as an exercise to the
reader.

^.*(.)\1(.)\2(.)\3.*$

That's it. I felt compelled to try a Dutch word list for some richer
piicckkings.

aaneennaai
aaneennaaide
[snip]

That's cheating though! :-) Dutch even has a word with 8 consonents in
a row... (and yes, it can be pronounced)
Not by terrestrials, it can't. ;)

--
Blinky
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
Blinky: http://blinkynet.net

Mar 4 '08 #31

P: n/a
Ben C wrote:
On 2008-03-03, Harlan Messinger <hm*******************@comcast.netwrote:
>Ben C wrote:
>>On 2008-03-03, Blinky the Shark <no*****@box.invalidwrote:
Harlan Messinger wrote:

Yet I'm not going to worry that some day a new browser version will
display "bookkeeper" as "bokeper". I think it's taken for granted that
characters not arbitrarily collapsing with each other is the norm, and
only situations where they do collapse need to be articulated explicitly.
<otAre there other English words that contain a consecutive triplet of
doubled letters?
Good question, the answer is no!

These are all the ones I could find in the Scrabble dictionary of
pointless but high-scoring words and various other word lists I have on
my computer:

bookkeeper
bookkeepers
bookkeeping
bookkeeping

I will leave the regular expression to find them as an exercise to the
reader.
^.*(.)\1(.)\2(.)\3.*$

That's it. I felt compelled to try a Dutch word list for some richer
piicckkings.

aaneennaai
aaneennaaide
aaneennaaiden
aaneennaaien
aaneennaait
aannaai
aannaaide
aannaaiden
aannaaien
aannaaiend
aannaait
aanneem
aanneembaar
aanneembare
aanneemsom
aanneemsommen
aanneemster
aanneemsters
aanneemt
actievoorraad
beheerraad
bevoorraad
bevoorraadde
bevoorraadden
bevoorraadt
borduurraam
buffervoorraad
dooddeel
dooddeelde
dooddeelden
dooddeelt
doorreed
doorrook
doorrookt
doorrookte
doorrookten
doorrookter
doorrooktst
dwaalleer
eerroof
figuurraadsel
figuurraadsels
goederenvoorraad
goudvoorraad
hamstervoorraad
hooggaand
hooggaande
hooggaander
hooggaandere
hooggaandst
hooggaandste
ijzervoorraad
kasvoorraad
koollaag
leeggooi
leeggooide
leeggooiden
leeggooien
leeggooit
leeggoot
maalloon
materiaalleer
mondvoorraad
muntvoorraad
nooddoop
noodvoorraad
overreedde
overreedden
plaaggeest
plaaggeesten
reservevoorraad
restantvoorraad
spreekkoor
spreekuurrooster
steekkaart
steekkaarten
steenkoollaag
straattaal
stuurreep
tamboereerraam
teellaag
toneellaars
toneellaarzen
uiteenneem
uiteenneembaar
uiteenneembare
uiteenneemt
uurrooster
uurroosters
verraadde
verraadden
vertaalloon
voedselvoorraad
voorraad
voorraadadministratie
voorraadaftrek
voorraadbeheer
voorraadbeheersing
voorraadbestand
voorraadbewaking
voorraadboek
voorraadboeken
voorraadcontrole
voorraadgegevens
voorraadhoeveelheden
voorraadhoudende
voorraadhuis
voorraadhuizen
voorraadje
voorraadkaart
voorraadkaarten
voorraadkamer
voorraadkamers
voorraadkast
voorraadkosten
voorraadniveau
voorraadpeil
voorraadrekening
voorraadschuren
voorraadschuur
voorraadtank
voorraadtanks
voorraadvat
voorraadvorming
voorraam
voorreed
vuurrood
vuurroodst
weekkaart
weekkaarten
winkelvoorraad
wintervoorraad
woordvoorraad
woordvoorraaden
zoolleer
Geez! And they say English is a hard language to learn! :-)

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One says to the other: "Does this
taste funny to you?"
Mar 4 '08 #32

P: n/a
Ed Mullen wrote:
Ben C wrote:
>On 2008-03-03, Harlan Messinger <hm*******************@comcast.netwrote:
>>Ben C wrote:
On 2008-03-03, Blinky the Shark <no*****@box.invalidwrote:
Harlan Messinger wrote:
>
>Yet I'm not going to worry that some day a new browser version will
>display "bookkeeper" as "bokeper". I think it's taken for granted that
>characters not arbitrarily collapsing with each other is the norm, and
>only situations where they do collapse need to be articulated explicitly.
<otAre there other English words that contain a consecutive triplet of
doubled letters?
Good question, the answer is no!

These are all the ones I could find in the Scrabble dictionary of
pointless but high-scoring words and various other word lists I have on
my computer:

bookkeeper
bookkeepers
bookkeeping
bookkeeping

I will leave the regular expression to find them as an exercise to the
reader.
^.*(.)\1(.)\2(.)\3.*$

That's it. I felt compelled to try a Dutch word list for some richer
piicckkings.

aaneennaai
aaneennaaide
aaneennaaiden
aaneennaaien
aaneennaait
aannaai
aannaaide
aannaaiden
aannaaien
aannaaiend
aannaait
aanneem
aanneembaar
aanneembare
aanneemsom
aanneemsommen
aanneemster
aanneemsters
aanneemt
actievoorraad
beheerraad
bevoorraad
bevoorraadde
bevoorraadden
bevoorraadt
borduurraam
buffervoorraad
dooddeel
dooddeelde
dooddeelden
dooddeelt
doorreed
doorrook
doorrookt
doorrookte
doorrookten
doorrookter
doorrooktst
dwaalleer
eerroof
figuurraadsel
figuurraadsels
goederenvoorraad
goudvoorraad
hamstervoorraad
hooggaand
hooggaande
hooggaander
hooggaandere
hooggaandst
hooggaandste
ijzervoorraad
kasvoorraad
koollaag
leeggooi
leeggooide
leeggooiden
leeggooien
leeggooit
leeggoot
maalloon
materiaalleer
mondvoorraad
muntvoorraad
nooddoop
noodvoorraad
overreedde
overreedden
plaaggeest
plaaggeesten
reservevoorraad
restantvoorraad
spreekkoor
spreekuurrooster
steekkaart
steekkaarten
steenkoollaag
straattaal
stuurreep
tamboereerraam
teellaag
toneellaars
toneellaarzen
uiteenneem
uiteenneembaar
uiteenneembare
uiteenneemt
uurrooster
uurroosters
verraadde
verraadden
vertaalloon
voedselvoorraad
voorraad
voorraadadministratie
voorraadaftrek
voorraadbeheer
voorraadbeheersing
voorraadbestand
voorraadbewaking
voorraadboek
voorraadboeken
voorraadcontrole
voorraadgegevens
voorraadhoeveelheden
voorraadhoudende
voorraadhuis
voorraadhuizen
voorraadje
voorraadkaart
voorraadkaarten
voorraadkamer
voorraadkamers
voorraadkast
voorraadkosten
voorraadniveau
voorraadpeil
voorraadrekening
voorraadschuren
voorraadschuur
voorraadtank
voorraadtanks
voorraadvat
voorraadvorming
voorraam
voorreed
vuurrood
vuurroodst
weekkaart
weekkaarten
winkelvoorraad
wintervoorraad
woordvoorraad
woordvoorraaden
zoolleer

Geez! And they say English is a hard language to learn! :-)
Imagine the difficulty of participating in a Dutch spelling
beebeebeebeebee.
--
Blinky
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
Blinky: http://blinkynet.net

Mar 4 '08 #33

P: n/a
In article <ja******************************@comcast.com>,
Ed Mullen <ed@edmullen.netwrote:
Not sure why the decision was made on
collapsing spaces was made. Not sure it makes any sense to me at all.
It makes life easier, surely. Would you want to be watching your
spaces like a hawk when marking up an html doc?

--
dorayme
Mar 4 '08 #34

P: n/a
Ed Mullen wrote:
I agree, the Web is different. Not sure why the decision was made on
collapsing spaces was made. Not sure it makes any sense to me at all.
But, ok, that's the way it is, fine, I'll get with the program when
working on the Web. No problem. I'm still curious how and why that
decision was made to abandon an long standard practice.
<p>
As the line wraps in the markup there may be more
then one white space character, like here with a
carriage return and a tab as the markup is indented
for pretty printing. What would happen if the white
space was not interpreted as a single space?
</p>
As the line wraps in the markup there may be more then one white...
^^

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
Mar 4 '08 #35

P: n/a
Jonathan N. Little wrote:
As the line wraps in the markup there may be more then one white...
^^
Damn!

s/then/than/

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
Mar 4 '08 #36

P: n/a
On 03 Mar 2008, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>As the line wraps in the markup there may be more then one white...
^^
Damn!

s/then/than/
I wasn't going to point out that total blunder. Honest.

--
Neredbojias
http://www.neredbojias.com/
Great sights and sounds
Mar 4 '08 #37

P: n/a
Els
Blinky the Shark wrote:
>>>Dutch even has a word with 8 consonents in
a row... (and yes, it can be pronounced)

The word I meant is 'angstschreeuw'. Noun, 'scream of fear'.

Here it is with *no* consonants:

IIEEEEEE!
<g>

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
Mar 4 '08 #38

P: n/a
Els wrote:
Blinky the Shark wrote:
>>>>Dutch even has a word with 8 consonents in
a row... (and yes, it can be pronounced)

The word I meant is 'angstschreeuw'. Noun, 'scream of fear'.

Here it is with *no* consonants:

IIEEEEEE!

<g>
And it's no coincidence that there's an "IE" in there...

--
Blinky
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
Blinky: http://blinkynet.net

Mar 4 '08 #39

P: n/a
..oO(Els)
>Michael Fesser wrote:
>"Angstschrei" in German, quite similar.

Yup, quite so.
But, do you also have as many words with consecutive triplets of
doubled letters? :-)
I can't think of any, actually ... ;)

Micha
Mar 4 '08 #40

P: n/a
Els
Ed Mullen wrote:
Ben C wrote:
>That's it. I felt compelled to try a Dutch word list for some richer
piicckkings.
[snip lengthy list]
>woordvoorraad
woordvoorraaden
zoolleer

Geez! And they say English is a hard language to learn! :-)
At least the pronunciation in Dutch is (mostly) consistent with the
spelling.
Try and make sense of English:
deer, beer, dear, bear, wear and tear, tear (on a cheek), new, sew ...

:-)

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
Mar 4 '08 #41

P: n/a
Els
Michael Fesser wrote:
.oO(Els)
>>Michael Fesser wrote:
>>"Angstschrei" in German, quite similar.

Yup, quite so.
But, do you also have as many words with consecutive triplets of
doubled letters? :-)

I can't think of any, actually ... ;)
I think that's because you use an 'h' to lengthen the sound of a vowel
where needed. I guess the only other language with as many doubled
letters is Finnish. They can even double the 'i'.

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
Mar 4 '08 #42

P: n/a
Els
Blinky the Shark wrote:
Imagine the difficulty of participating in a Dutch spelling
beebeebeebeebee.
Wouldn't be hard at all, if it weren't for the fact that they *change*
the official spelling every few years :-(

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
Mar 4 '08 #43

P: n/a
Els
Blinky the Shark wrote:
Els wrote:
>Dutch even has a word with 8 consonents in
a row... (and yes, it can be pronounced)

Not by terrestrials, it can't. ;)
So I'm an alien! Yay! :-)

(wonder if dorayme can pronounce it..)

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
Mar 4 '08 #44

P: n/a
Els wrote:
Blinky the Shark wrote:
>Els wrote:
>>Dutch even has a word with 8 consonents in
a row... (and yes, it can be pronounced)

Not by terrestrials, it can't. ;)

So I'm an alien! Yay! :-)
Finally it comes out. You must feel much cleaner now. :)
--
Blinky
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
Blinky: http://blinkynet.net

Mar 4 '08 #45

P: n/a
Michael Fesser wrote:
Els wrote
>The word I meant is 'angstschreeuw'. Noun, 'scream of fear'.

"Angstschrei" in German, quite similar.
And "angst-scream" would probably be understood by most English speakers,
though you wouldn't find it in a dictionary. However the word "angst" has
different connotations in English -- it would be more of a "scream of
bother".

I always delight in seeing these little cognates between the Germanic
languages. The languages are really a lot closer together than people give
them credit for -- especially the rarely used words, which haven't had
such an opportunity to mutate. Frisian (spoken in some coastal regions of
the Netherlands, Germany and Denmark) sounds almost like English spoken in
a very funny accent.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
[Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
[OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 34 days, 15:41.]

Bottled Water
http://tobyinkster.co.uk/blog/2008/02/18/bottled-water/
Mar 4 '08 #46

P: n/a
On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Harlan Messinger wrote:
Likewise, character sets, fonts, and Unicode exist without regard to
HTML, and I would expect that whenever HTML doesn't specify otherwise,
text will be displayed in the prevailing manner, which, as I observed
above, at least IMO, means that each character is displayed, and
they aren't arbitrarily collapsed.
Collapsing of white space characters is one of the differences
between text/plain and text/html.

--
In memoriam Alan J. Flavell
http://groups.google.com/groups/sear...Alan.J.Flavell
Mar 4 '08 #47

P: n/a
Andreas Prilop wrote:
On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Harlan Messinger wrote:
>Likewise, character sets, fonts, and Unicode exist without regard to
HTML, and I would expect that whenever HTML doesn't specify otherwise,
text will be displayed in the prevailing manner, which, as I observed
above, at least IMO, means that each character is displayed, and
they aren't arbitrarily collapsed.

Collapsing of white space characters is one of the differences
between text/plain and text/html.
Yes, but we're discussing the space characters that HTML doesn't
consider to be "white space" characters.
Mar 4 '08 #48

P: n/a
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jk******@cs.tut.fiwrites:
No, conforming implementations are not required to display
all characters. Even if Unicode conformance were required,
and it isn't, implementations would not need to support all
characters. They won't be _arbitrarily_ collapsed, but
collapsing spaces aren't really "character collapse" but a
matter of spacing.
Actually there's already a kind of collapsing of characters
in some browsers (using some rendering engines): some
character pairs (fi for example) are displayed as ligatures
(fi). I don't think we would want to mandate that that didn't
happen either.

--
Jón Fairbairn Jo***********@cl.cam.ac.uk

Mar 4 '08 #49

P: n/a
Els
Els wrote:
the word 'ignorante', is pronouned 'iginorante'.
Not. It's pronounced 'iguinorante'. They just add the 'i', but by
spelling it as I did, the sound of the 'g' would change, and it
doesn't.

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
Mar 4 '08 #50

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