34  3560  ta********@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks.
Yes.
In spite of its name, alt.html.critique might be a better group for
this. You will, however, get a review of much more than usability there...
Chris Beall
On 11 Oct, 06:49, "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorp...@cs.tut.fiwrote:
You're welcome. Now please read a primer on Usenet before bothering us more.
Get educated, or get killfiled.
Decaff.
On Oct 10, 9:16 pm, Chris Beall <Chris_Be...@prodigy.netwrote:
tatata9...@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks.
Yes.
In spite of its name, alt.html.critique might be a better group for
this. You will, however, get a review of much more than usability there...
Chris Beall
Thanks, Chris, the idea is simple, create a useful and yet Real Simple
web app. URL, http://www.mytata.net/
Don
P.S. Hope it can be voted as the SIMPLEST web app ever created other
than one click vote app, all right, am thinking loud or not thinking
at all...
On 2007-10-11, ta********@gmail.com wrote:
>
On Oct 10, 9:16 pm, Chris Beall <Chris_Be...@prodigy.netwrote:
>tatata9...@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks.
Yes.
In spite of its name, alt.html.critique might be a better group for
this. You will, however, get a review of much more than usability there...
Chris Beall
Thanks, Chris, the idea is simple, create a useful and yet Real Simple
web app. URL, http://www.mytata.net/
Don
P.S. Hope it can be voted as the SIMPLEST web app ever created other
than one click vote app, all right, am thinking loud or not thinking
at all...
There's nothing on the first page that tells the reader what it
does. Why would anyone go further?
--
Chris F.A. Johnson <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>
================================================== =================
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
On Oct 11, 12:43 pm, Steve Swift <Steve.J.Sw...@gmail.comwrote:
P.S. Hope it can be voted as the SIMPLEST web app ever created other
than one click vote app, all right, am thinking loud or not thinking
at all...
Nothing wrong with not thinking... seehttp://www.swiftys.org.uk/wiz?108
--
Steve Swifthttp://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.htmlhttp://www.ringers.org.uk
Thanks, gents.
To Chris F. A. Johnson, how about http://web.mytata.net:8000/myTA/index_more.cfm
?
On Oct 11, 12:43 pm, Steve Swift <Steve.J.Sw...@gmail.comwrote:
P.S. Hope it can be voted as the SIMPLEST web app ever created other
than one click vote app, all right, am thinking loud or not thinking
at all...
Nothing wrong with not thinking... seehttp://www.swiftys.org.uk/wiz?108
--
Steve Swifthttp://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.htmlhttp://www.ringers.org.uk
Hey, Steve, I like it, very clean and elegant, and if I may, I would
contiue the "Errors and omissions are..." with something like "a
reminder that I'm just human...", just a wild thought.
Hey, Steve, I like it, very clean and elegant, and if I may, I would
contiue the "Errors and omissions are..." with something like "a
reminder that I'm just human...", just a wild thought.
Thank you.
The "Errors and omissions are there just to annoy you" is itself a
quotation; it's just that by the time I found a use for it, I'd lost
track of where I found it.
--
Steve Swift http://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.html http://www.ringers.org.uk ta********@gmail.com wrote:
On Oct 11, 12:43 pm, Steve Swift <Steve.J.Sw...@gmail.comwrote:
>>P.S. Hope it can be voted as the SIMPLEST web app ever created other
than one click vote app, all right, am thinking loud or not thinking
at all...
Talking of simplest, I bought a wonderful alarm clock recently. It has
four functions: Current time; Alarm Time; Temperature and one I've
forgotten (it's in our other house, 580 miles away).
It has only two buttons; one that allows to to say "I want to change
this" and the other one that allows you to step through the possibilities.
The really fun aspect is how you decide which of the four functions it
displays. The clock is roughly cubical, and the display is square. The
four functions are labelled along the four sides of the display; you get
whichever function is at the top of the display, when you rotate the clock.
It came without instructions; they were not necessary. This should be
the goal of application developers.
--
Steve Swift http://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.html http://www.ringers.org.uk
On Oct 12, 4:08 am, Steve Swift <Steve.J.Sw...@gmail.comwrote:
tatata9...@gmail.com wrote:
On Oct 11, 12:43 pm, Steve Swift <Steve.J.Sw...@gmail.comwrote:
>P.S. Hope it can be voted as the SIMPLEST web app ever created other
than one click vote app, all right, am thinking loud or not thinking
at all...
Talking of simplest, I bought a wonderful alarm clock recently. It has
four functions: Current time; Alarm Time; Temperature and one I've
forgotten (it's in our other house, 580 miles away).
It has only two buttons; one that allows to to say "I want to change
this" and the other one that allows you to step through the possibilities.
The really fun aspect is how you decide which of the four functions it
displays. The clock is roughly cubical, and the display is square. The
four functions are labelled along the four sides of the display; you get
whichever function is at the top of the display, when you rotate the clock.
It came without instructions; they were not necessary. This should be
the goal of application developers.
--
Steve Swifthttp://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.htmlhttp://www.ringers.org.uk
Excellent. Thank you. Now, a specific question, if I may, per this
app,
Screen A
Signup ( could it simpler?)
Screen B
Project/Task/Activity vs Project/Task/Activity NOW vs Project/Task/
Activity Now
which one seems most easy for a user to understand (this means to
enter an Activity that he/she is going to work on immediately)?
Screen C
For the 3 funtion buttons
Here we have no idea what a user will do in terms of What (thing) and
When (time) hence current design of
Save (save this activity or activity at hand)
Save & Next Acitivity (save this activity and start work on another
one, continuous motion)
Next Activity (Well, the user takes a break something, just come back
-- a span of inactivity, now wants to start an activity)
What other alternatives might be easier for a user to understand? The
user is supposed to be reasonably intelligent (college crowd type or
the like).
Many thanks.
<ta********@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@e34g2000pro.googlegr oups.com...
On Oct 12, 4:08 am, Steve Swift <Steve.J.Sw...@gmail.comwrote:
>tatata9...@gmail.com wrote:
On Oct 11, 12:43 pm, Steve Swift <Steve.J.Sw...@gmail.comwrote:
P.S. Hope it can be voted as the SIMPLEST web app ever created other
than one click vote app, all right, am thinking loud or not thinking
at all...
Talking of simplest, I bought a wonderful alarm clock recently. It has
four functions: Current time; Alarm Time; Temperature and one I've
forgotten (it's in our other house, 580 miles away).
It has only two buttons; one that allows to to say "I want to change
this" and the other one that allows you to step through the
possibilities.
The really fun aspect is how you decide which of the four functions it
displays. The clock is roughly cubical, and the display is square. The
four functions are labelled along the four sides of the display; you get
whichever function is at the top of the display, when you rotate the
clock.
It came without instructions; they were not necessary. This should be
the goal of application developers.
--
Steve Swifthttp://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.htmlhttp://www.ringers.org.uk
Excellent. Thank you. Now, a specific question, if I may, per this
app,
Screen A
Signup ( could it simpler?)
Screen B
Project/Task/Activity vs Project/Task/Activity NOW vs Project/Task/
Activity Now
which one seems most easy for a user to understand (this means to
enter an Activity that he/she is going to work on immediately)?
Screen C
For the 3 funtion buttons
Here we have no idea what a user will do in terms of What (thing) and
When (time) hence current design of
Save (save this activity or activity at hand)
Save & Next Acitivity (save this activity and start work on another
one, continuous motion)
Next Activity (Well, the user takes a break something, just come back
-- a span of inactivity, now wants to start an activity)
What other alternatives might be easier for a user to understand? The
user is supposed to be reasonably intelligent (college crowd type or
the like).
Many thanks.
My first guess, not knowing the app in detail:-
A: Sign in
B. Activity (select from list)
C: Save & Quit or Quit without saving Either case back to B
On Oct 12, 8:01 pm, "David Cox" <nos...@nospam.comwrote:
<tatata9...@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@e34g2000pro.googlegr oups.com...
On Oct 12, 4:08 am, Steve Swift <Steve.J.Sw...@gmail.comwrote:
tatata9...@gmail.com wrote:
On Oct 11, 12:43 pm, Steve Swift <Steve.J.Sw...@gmail.comwrote:
P.S. Hope it can be voted as the SIMPLEST web app ever created other
than one click vote app, all right, am thinking loud or not thinking
at all...
Talking of simplest, I bought a wonderful alarm clock recently. It has
four functions: Current time; Alarm Time; Temperature and one I've
forgotten (it's in our other house, 580 miles away).
It has only two buttons; one that allows to to say "I want to change
this" and the other one that allows you to step through the
possibilities.
The really fun aspect is how you decide which of the four functions it
displays. The clock is roughly cubical, and the display is square. The
four functions are labelled along the four sides of the display; you get
whichever function is at the top of the display, when you rotate the
clock.
It came without instructions; they were not necessary. This should be
the goal of application developers.
--
Steve Swifthttp://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.htmlhttp://www.ringers.org.uk
Excellent. Thank you. Now, a specific question, if I may, per this
app,
Screen A
Signup ( could it simpler?)
Screen B
Project/Task/Activity vs Project/Task/Activity NOW vs Project/Task/
Activity Now
which one seems most easy for a user to understand (this means to
enter an Activity that he/she is going to work on immediately)?
Screen C
For the 3 funtion buttons
Here we have no idea what a user will do in terms of What (thing) and
When (time) hence current design of
Save (save this activity or activity at hand)
Save & Next Acitivity (save this activity and start work on another
one, continuous motion)
Next Activity (Well, the user takes a break something, just come back
-- a span of inactivity, now wants to start an activity)
What other alternatives might be easier for a user to understand? The
user is supposed to be reasonably intelligent (college crowd type or
the like).
Many thanks.
My first guess, not knowing the app in detail:-
A: Sign in
B. Activity (select from list)
C: Save & Quit or Quit without saving Either case back to B- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Hmm, how about compare your guess with the app since it's so easily
available?; also, if I may, the 3 function buttons are tied to "time"
in addition to 'activity'.
Excellent. Thank you. Now, a specific question, if I may, per this
app,
I'm far from a usability expert, but I'll say one thing: You only find
out how your site can be improved by watching others struggle with it,
and *by keeping quiet* while they do.
Tasks which seem simple and obvious to me turn out to be completely
baffling to others.
--
Steve Swift http://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.html http://www.ringers.org.uk
<ta********@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@y27g2000pre.googlegr oups.com...
On Oct 12, 8:01 pm, "David Cox" <nos...@nospam.comwrote:
><tatata9...@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@e34g2000pro.googleg roups.com...
On Oct 12, 4:08 am, Steve Swift <Steve.J.Sw...@gmail.comwrote:
tatata9...@gmail.com wrote:
On Oct 11, 12:43 pm, Steve Swift <Steve.J.Sw...@gmail.comwrote:
P.S. Hope it can be voted as the SIMPLEST web app ever created
other
than one click vote app, all right, am thinking loud or not
thinking
at all...
>Talking of simplest, I bought a wonderful alarm clock recently. It has
four functions: Current time; Alarm Time; Temperature and one I've
forgotten (it's in our other house, 580 miles away).
It has only two buttons; one that allows to to say "I want to change
this" and the other one that allows you to step through the
possibilities.
>The really fun aspect is how you decide which of the four functions it
displays. The clock is roughly cubical, and the display is square. The
four functions are labelled along the four sides of the display; you
get
whichever function is at the top of the display, when you rotate the
clock.
>It came without instructions; they were not necessary. This should be
the goal of application developers.
>--
Steve
Swifthttp://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.htmlhttp://www.ringers.org.uk
Excellent. Thank you. Now, a specific question, if I may, per this
app,
Screen A
Signup ( could it simpler?)
Screen B
Project/Task/Activity vs Project/Task/Activity NOW vs Project/Task/
Activity Now
which one seems most easy for a user to understand (this means to
enter an Activity that he/she is going to work on immediately)?
Screen C
For the 3 funtion buttons
Here we have no idea what a user will do in terms of What (thing) and
When (time) hence current design of
Save (save this activity or activity at hand)
Save & Next Acitivity (save this activity and start work on another
one, continuous motion)
Next Activity (Well, the user takes a break something, just come back
-- a span of inactivity, now wants to start an activity)
What other alternatives might be easier for a user to understand? The
user is supposed to be reasonably intelligent (college crowd type or
the like).
Many thanks.
My first guess, not knowing the app in detail:-
A: Sign in
B. Activity (select from list)
C: Save & Quit or Quit without saving Either case back to B- Hide
quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
SNIP
Hmm, how about compare your guess with the app since it's so easily
available?;
Look carefully at the text above.
Can you point to "link easily available"?
I, as a naive reader, only saw a couple of urls appended to a sig, which I,
possibly mistakenly, took as links to your home pages, probably irrelevant,
probably selling something. To look at either of those I would have to cut
and paste and edit.
Your first post in this thread reads "thanks".
To create a user friendly application you have to be able to get into the
users mindset. Being able to wash your mind of what you know and see it as
your intended readers would see it.
Apologies from a non-intended reader.
David F. Cox
On Oct 13, 8:15 am, "David Cox" <nos...@nospam.comwrote:
<tatata9...@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@y27g2000pre.googlegr oups.com...
On Oct 12, 8:01 pm, "David Cox" <nos...@nospam.comwrote:
<tatata9...@gmail.comwrote in message
>news:11**********************@e34g2000pro.googleg roups.com...
On Oct 12, 4:08 am, Steve Swift <Steve.J.Sw...@gmail.comwrote:
tatata9...@gmail.com wrote:
On Oct 11, 12:43 pm, Steve Swift <Steve.J.Sw...@gmail.comwrote:
P.S. Hope it can be voted as the SIMPLEST web app ever created
other
than one click vote app, all right, am thinking loud or not
thinking
at all...
Talking of simplest, I bought a wonderful alarm clock recently. It has
four functions: Current time; Alarm Time; Temperature and one I've
forgotten (it's in our other house, 580 miles away).
It has only two buttons; one that allows to to say "I want to change
this" and the other one that allows you to step through the
possibilities.
The really fun aspect is how you decide which of the four functions it
displays. The clock is roughly cubical, and the display is square. The
four functions are labelled along the four sides of the display; you
get
whichever function is at the top of the display, when you rotate the
clock.
It came without instructions; they were not necessary. This should be
the goal of application developers.
--
Steve
Swifthttp://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.htmlhttp://www.ringers.org.uk
Excellent. Thank you. Now, a specific question, if I may, per this
app,
Screen A
Signup ( could it simpler?)
Screen B
Project/Task/Activity vs Project/Task/Activity NOW vs Project/Task/
Activity Now
which one seems most easy for a user to understand (this means to
enter an Activity that he/she is going to work on immediately)?
Screen C
For the 3 funtion buttons
Here we have no idea what a user will do in terms of What (thing) and
When (time) hence current design of
Save (save this activity or activity at hand)
Save & Next Acitivity (save this activity and start work on another
one, continuous motion)
Next Activity (Well, the user takes a break something, just come back
-- a span of inactivity, now wants to start an activity)
What other alternatives might be easier for a user to understand? The
user is supposed to be reasonably intelligent (college crowd type or
the like).
Many thanks.
My first guess, not knowing the app in detail:-
A: Sign in
B. Activity (select from list)
C: Save & Quit or Quit without saving Either case back to B- Hide
quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
SNIP
Hmm, how about compare your guess with the app since it's so easily
available?;
Look carefully at the text above.
Can you point to "link easily available"?
I, as a naive reader, only saw a couple of urls appended to a sig, which I,
possibly mistakenly, took as links to your home pages, probably irrelevant,
probably selling something. To look at either of those I would have to cut
and paste and edit.
Your first post in this thread reads "thanks".
To create a user friendly application you have to be able to get into the
users mindset. Being able to wash your mind of what you know and see it as
your intended readers would see it.
Apologies from a non-intended reader.
David F. Cox- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
My apologies, David, your points are well taken. The URL is, http://www.mytata.net/
Thanks.
Don
On Oct 13, 5:38 am, Steve Swift <Steve.J.Sw...@gmail.comwrote:
Excellent. Thank you. Now, a specific question, if I may, per this
app,
I'm far from a usability expert, but I'll say one thing: You only find
out how your site can be improved by watching others struggle with it,
and *by keeping quiet* while they do.
Tasks which seem simple and obvious to me turn out to be completely
baffling to others.
--
Steve Swifthttp://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.htmlhttp://www.ringers.org.uk
Interesting observation. I feel the trade off between keeping
"Project/task/activity" vs. just "Activity" is that,
the former seems more inclusive at the price of possible confusion
while the latter may dilute value projection. Hopefully I'll get to
work with beta users (target audience) next week.
The encouraging thing is, currently about 60% of the visitors come by
more than 10 times while 27% only once. The stats alerted me that the
Home Page was not good enough in terms of WHAT, For WHOM and WHY, so,
I worked on it last night. Please kindly take a look at the revised
version and offer your thoughts.
Many thanks.
<ta********@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@y42g2000hsy.googlegr oups.com...
On Oct 10, 9:16 pm, Chris Beall <Chris_Be...@prodigy.netwrote:
>tatata9...@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks.
Yes.
In spite of its name, alt.html.critique might be a better group for
this. You will, however, get a review of much more than usability
there...
Chris Beall
Thanks, Chris, the idea is simple, create a useful and yet Real Simple
web app. URL, http://www.mytata.net/
Don
P.S. Hope it can be voted as the SIMPLEST web app ever created other
than one click vote app, all right, am thinking loud or not thinking
at all...
Ego is good for motivation, to be the best, the "tops". In the extreme it is
what drives people to become dictators. I commend your ambition, and the
amount of work you have done.
My first programming task was to produce a small application for what my
boss called "A British Standard Idiot". It taught me to write for the lowest
requirements from the user. Just watch the news or read a newspaper to
realise just how unintelligent some college grads can be.
As an exercise you could think about how you would approach the user
interface for this spec before comparing it to my solution.
-----------------------
The program reads an input file from a paper tape.
It can be in ASCII, EIA, ECBDIC or our own binary format.
It can be in inches or metric.
The decimal point can be explict or missing and implied, to 2,3 or 4 decimal
places.
If missing it can be all digits supplied, or leading zeros suppresed or
trailing zeros suppressed.
Often the user will just be supplied with the paper tapefile and a diagram
of the output (A printed circuit pattern of holes to be drilled.)
If the user cannot discover any of these options they should be supplied
with instructions on how to discover them from examination of the paper
tape.
This program is to be sold around the world to non-Engish speakers, and to
be usable by users at machine minder level.
-----------------------
I was not impressed with your approach at all. I will make some minor
points. I think a major repositioning of your mindset is required to achieve
your ambition. Think about the exercise.
Dates - Common user experience are a wall calendar, with a little box in
which can be written little notes, or a diary with several lines per day. A
user screen probably too small for complete text, but it is big enough to
contain small colored symbols which can be expanded with a click for detail.
Maybe use A for art, S for science, etc. or distictive icons
What day is the 6/10/07?
If you print the day as "Mon", "Tue" etc and the months as "Sep", "Oct" etc
it makes the date easier to remember and more mistake resilient. The user
knows science is not done on Sunday.
We probably disagree on what day it is, because I live in the UK, d/m/y.
A lot of scheduling occurs regularly. The last progam I did the user pressed
W to duplicate the last entry in the next week.
---------
My program opening screen was a standard file selection box.
When the user chose the file the next screen showed the printed circuit
layout on a background of the drilling table for scale.
If I could tell the user how to tell EIA from ASCII or whatever, I could
tell my program how to do it, and had. Similarly for all of the other
parameters. My program could not "see" the diagram supplied, so could only
guess at the size, and often the units. If the guess was too small the user
pressed "+", to enlarge "-" to shrink. On each click the program changed the
units from inch to metric, or vice versa, and altered the scale in the right
direction. If none of those gave an answer that matched the diagram it was
time to press ESC and mail the file to us, because our program could not
work with that format, yet. It was something new to us.
HTH, you or someone else.
David F. Cox ta********@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks, Chris, the idea is simple, create a useful and yet Real Simple
web app. URL, http://www.mytata.net/
Major issues:
1) It doesn't handle time correctly.
It uses a specific timezone and doesn't specify which it is. It's 10:47
where I live (UTC+02:00), but it's displayed as 4:47 am. On the web,
giving a time without specifying the timezone doesn't make sense.
You must either use UTC and clearly specify that you're using UTC or
better, use the local timezone the user wishes. Ideally, you should also
handle daily saving times, if possible. Even if you use the local timezone
specified by the user, you should show the timezone in the table.
The am/pm time system is used by US people, but, most other countries use
the time system on 24 hours (e.g. 14:30 for 2:30 pm). You should either
use the system on 24 hours (the only good system for people who travel),
or give the choice of the display system.
2) It doesn't handle date correctly.
What does 10/14/2007 means? I know that we're October the 14th and
understood that your app was hosted in the US, so I understood after a few
seconds that it used the middle-endian notation Month/Day/Year. To make
things clear, either use the ISO/IEC 8601 big-endian format (2007-10-14)
or specify the month in whole letters or let the user specify the format.
If you use the ISO/IEC format, please, specify it in the table header:
Date (YYYY-MM-DD).
3) The pages that displays the table don't display the current date and
time. That's a vital information!
4) Remove all your JavaScript links. JavaScript links in so many ways that
I cannot count them. They're just fake links that neither work correctly
for advanced users nor for newbies. Use good old anchors, without
target=_blank, please. Everybody surfing on the web is able to handle
navigation (new windows, back button, etc.) himself. And if they don't,
JavaScript links will only worsen things.
5) It's very unclear what your application is supposed to do, from the
main page.
From the main page:
This is a simple and yet powerful Time Management Tool. Simple,
initially there're only 3 functional buttons; powerful, as you become
more familar with it the tool advances and 'grows' with you (additional
functionality will automatically render itself where and when
appropriate).
You praise your system without giving any information about it! You could
shorten this paragraph to "This is a time management tool", without any
loss of information!
You'd rather specify what it does more accurately.
For example:
"
With this time management tool, if you create an account, you'll record
your activity, whatever it is, by tagging it with a name and specifying
its start and end at the time you start or end it. It'll automatically
keep track of the date, time and duration of every of your activity.
Below is an example of recorded activities:
<show short sample table below>
"
6) The http://web.mytata.net:8000/myTA/myTA_logout.cfm resource has side
effects when an HTTP GET request is sent.
This is a very bad thing, because HTTP GET must never have side effects.
User agents rely on that fact by:
1. Caching the request.
2. Crawling the pages before any user action is taken (there's a FF plugin
that does that).
Moreover, a user or user agent should never be taken responsible for a
HTTP GET request he did.
Solution: Use a HTTP POST request for that. To do so, use an HTML form
with a logout button.
Same issue with the [Like it?] link.
7) I cannot find any way to login from an existing account without
creating a new one when the cookie is deleted (all my new cookies are
deleted when I exit my browser)! Maybe there's one, but I cannot find it!
Medium level issues:
1) The login system from the main page is very unclear.
It's unclear what the differences between "Everyone else", "Business" and
"Student" are.
In particular, the meaning of "Everyone else, follow me!" is incredibely
unclear.
It's unclear where to login.
It's unclear that the student and business account can be the same.
This first page needs refactoring.
I think that the business vs student thing should only be set as an option
in the account preferences, and as a question in the account creation
process.
In the main page:
1. Shortly explain what the service is, as I described above. The sample
table could maybe be put in the tutorial page.
2. Give a login form or a "login in an existing account" link for existing
users.
3. Give a "create new account" link.
4. Maybe, give a "tutorial" link.
Then, once somebody is logged in, go to the activity page, and provide
these links:
[Logout] [Account options] [Home]
In account options, let the user change his password, choose the timezone,
the date & time format, whether he wants to record personal activity or
business activity.
The create account screen should clearly state the policy. Whether it's
permitted to create more than one account for an individual, describe the
privacy rights, the service continuity and data persistence rights.
2) Using a very long obfuscated login as password is very weak (browsers
don't display stars when it's typed) and unconvenient.
Just let the user choose his login and password.
3) There should be a way to use HTTPS when logging in or when creating an
account, or you should use a standard HTTP authentification rather than an
HTML form.
Minor issues:
1) In the table, you use a table header "Hours Spent" but display times
such as 5m. This is incorrect. One could think that 5m means 5
milli-hours! So, rename "Hours Spent" and "Total Hours" to "Time spent"
and "Total time".
BTW, it's very unclear what "Total hours" measures... Is it the total
activity time? The time between the start of activity in the day and the
current time of the day? The time between the start of activity in the day
and the last saved activity? This should be somehow specified.
2) It would be nice to give a HTTPS to the activity pages.
3) The three buttons activity recording system is unclear. What does
saving an activity means? The term "update state" would be better.
Things would be simplier if you integrated the idea that a human person
has an activity 100% of the time, even if it's "doing nothing", "not
working" or "unspecified".
Then, there would basically be a single button "Next activity". In the
list of possible activities, there would be two default activities: "Not
working" and "Unknown".
For saving user time, there could be a shortcut button: "Work pause" (e.g.
coffee/cigarette pause). Another shortcut: "Stop activity" would jump into
the "unknown" activity.
Notes should be understood as a different system.
You could either keep the current idea that a note is attached to a
specific activity, and, in that case, provide a separate form with a text
box and a single button [update note] that would update the note for the
current activity, or use a system where notes would be independent of
activities. They would simply be dated and integrated in the timeline of
the work.
HTTP issues:
1) Why do you use non-standard ports? Many people at work cannot access
non-standard ports because they must use a specific proxy.
There may be reasons. Could you give them.
2) Please, use simplier, more intuitive URI. http://web.mytata.net:8000/myTA/index2_so.cfm?utype=s is unclear.
HTML issues of the activity page:
1) I don't like having an horizontal scollbar. I've a 1152x864 screen, but
I use a left panel, and I don't use maximized windows.
Please don't use this ugly non-semantic table layout that requires a huge
maximized page.
2) Remove this big whitespace at the top of the page.
3) Validate your page.
For example:
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" />
What is this '/' doing?
It's HTML, not XHTML.
4) What's the point in fixing the font family? What's wrong with the user
CSS font?
5) Remove all this cr*p.
6) Don't abuse <br>.
7) What's the purpose of this display:none table with id="99999"? Remove
this thing on the server side! BTW, you should use more descriptive
identifiers.
Same issue with the CFForm_1 form.
8) Remove this onSubmit ECMAScript that serves no purpose.
9) Get rid of all these nested tables. This is awful.
I give up. Refactor the HTML code to get something much more semantically
correct and much smaller. This 10 kilobytes page could easily use one
kilobyte.
Don't take everything I said for an expert advice. But, I think you should
understand my concerns and take them in account.
--
If you've a question that doesn't belong to Usenet, contact me at
<ta*****************@yahoDELETETHATo.fr>
"André Gillibert" <ta*****************@yahodeletethato.frwrote in message
news:op.tz6pm8oq7pu1mk@andre...
ta********@gmail.com wrote:
>Thanks, Chris, the idea is simple, create a useful and yet Real Simple
web app. URL, http://www.mytata.net/
Major issues:
1) It doesn't handle time correctly.
I was asking myself if I did ( :->)
A far more thorough and better quality reply than I could have managed, a
superb early Christmas Present for anyone capable of unwrapping it.
SNIP
Don't take everything I said for an expert advice. But, I think you should
understand my concerns and take them in account.
:Yeah that:.
--
If you've a question that doesn't belong to Usenet, contact me at
<ta*****************@yahoDELETETHATo.fr>
On Oct 14, 6:17 am, "André Gillibert"
<tabkanDELETETHIS...@yahodeletethato.frwrote:
tatata9...@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks, Chris, the idea is simple, create a useful and yet Real Simple
web app. URL,http://www.mytata.net/
Major issues:
1) It doesn't handle time correctly.
It uses a specific timezone and doesn't specify which it is. It's 10:47
where I live (UTC+02:00), but it's displayed as 4:47 am. On the web,
giving a time without specifying the timezone doesn't make sense.
You must either use UTC and clearly specify that you're using UTC or
better, use the local timezone the user wishes. Ideally, you should also
handle daily saving times, if possible. Even if you use the local timezone
specified by the user, you should show the timezone in the table.
The am/pm time system is used by US people, but, most other countries use
the time system on 24 hours (e.g. 14:30 for 2:30 pm). You should either
use the system on 24 hours (the only good system for people who travel),
or give the choice of the display system.
2) It doesn't handle date correctly.
What does 10/14/2007 means? I know that we're October the 14th and
understood that your app was hosted in the US, so I understood after a few
seconds that it used the middle-endian notation Month/Day/Year. To make
things clear, either use the ISO/IEC 8601 big-endian format (2007-10-14)
or specify the month in whole letters or let the user specify the format.
If you use the ISO/IEC format, please, specify it in the table header:
Date (YYYY-MM-DD).
3) The pages that displays the table don't display the current date and
time. That's a vital information!
4) Remove all your JavaScript links. JavaScript links in so many ways that
I cannot count them. They're just fake links that neither work correctly
for advanced users nor for newbies. Use good old anchors, without
target=_blank, please. Everybody surfing on the web is able to handle
navigation (new windows, back button, etc.) himself. And if they don't,
JavaScript links will only worsen things.
5) It's very unclear what your application is supposed to do, from the
main page.
From the main page:
This is a simple and yet powerful Time Management Tool. Simple,
initially there're only 3 functional buttons; powerful, as you become
more familar with it the tool advances and 'grows' with you (additional
functionality will automatically render itself where and when
appropriate).
You praise your system without giving any information about it! You could
shorten this paragraph to "This is a time management tool", without any
loss of information!
You'd rather specify what it does more accurately.
For example:
"
With this time management tool, if you create an account, you'll record
your activity, whatever it is, by tagging it with a name and specifying
its start and end at the time you start or end it. It'll automatically
keep track of the date, time and duration of every of your activity.
Below is an example of recorded activities:
<show short sample table below>
"
6) Thehttp://web.mytata.net:8000/myTA/myTA_logout.cfmresource has side
effects when an HTTP GET request is sent.
This is a very bad thing, because HTTP GET must never have side effects.
User agents rely on that fact by:
1. Caching the request.
2. Crawling the pages before any user action is taken (there's a FF plugin
that does that).
Moreover, a user or user agent should never be taken responsible for a
HTTP GET request he did.
Solution: Use a HTTP POST request for that. To do so, use an HTML form
with a logout button.
Same issue with the [Like it?] link.
7) I cannot find any way to login from an existing account without
creating a new one when the cookie is deleted (all my new cookies are
deleted when I exit my browser)! Maybe there's one, but I cannot find it!
Medium level issues:
1) The login system from the main page is very unclear.
It's unclear what the differences between "Everyone else", "Business" and
"Student" are.
In particular, the meaning of "Everyone else, follow me!" is incredibely
unclear.
It's unclear where to login.
It's unclear that the student and business account can be the same.
This first page needs refactoring.
I think that the business vs student thing should only be set as an option
in the account preferences, and as a question in the account creation
process.
In the main page:
1. Shortly explain what the service is, as I described above. The sample
table could maybe be put in the tutorial page.
2. Give a login form or a "login in an existing account" link for existing
users.
3. Give a "create new account" link.
4. Maybe, give a "tutorial" link.
Then, once somebody is logged in, go to the activity page, and provide
these links:
[Logout] [Account options] [Home]
In account options, let the user change his password, choose the timezone,
the date & time format, whether he wants to record personal activity or
business activity.
The create account screen should clearly state the policy. Whether it's
permitted to create more than one account for an individual, describe the
privacy rights, the service continuity and data persistence rights.
2) Using a very long obfuscated login as password is very weak (browsers
don't display stars when it's typed) and unconvenient.
Just let the user choose his login and password.
3) There should be a way to use HTTPS when logging in or when creating an
account, or you should use a standard HTTP authentification rather than an
HTML form.
Minor issues:
1) In the table, you use a table header "Hours Spent" but display times
such as 5m. This is incorrect. One could think that 5m means 5
milli-hours! So, rename "Hours Spent" and "Total Hours" to "Time spent"
and "Total time".
BTW, it's very unclear what "Total hours" measures... Is it the total
activity time? The time between the start of activity in the day and the
current time of the day? The time between the start of activity in the day
and the last saved activity? This should be somehow specified.
2) It would be nice to give a HTTPS to the activity pages.
3) The three buttons activity recording system is unclear. What does
saving an activity means? The term "update state" would be better.
Things would be simplier if you integrated the idea that a human person
has an activity 100% of the time, even if it's "doing nothing", "not
working" or "unspecified".
Then, there would basically be a single button "Next activity". In the
list of possible activities, there would be two default activities: "Not
working" and "Unknown".
For saving user time, there could be a shortcut button: "Work pause" (e.g..
coffee/cigarette pause). Another shortcut: "Stop activity" would jump into
the "unknown" activity.
Notes should be understood as a different system.
You could either keep the current idea that a note is attached to a
specific activity, and, in that case, provide a separate form with a text
box and a single button [update note] that would update the note for the
current activity, or use a system where notes would be independent of
activities. They would simply be dated and integrated in the timeline of
the work.
HTTP issues:
1) Why do you use non-standard ports? Many people at work cannot access
non-standard ports because they must use a specific proxy.
There may be reasons. Could you give them.
2) Please, use simplier, more intuitive URI.http://web.mytata.net:8000/myTA/index2_so.cfm?utype=sis unclear.
HTML issues of the activity page:
1) I don't like having an horizontal scollbar. I've a 1152x864 screen, but
I use a left panel, and I don't use maximized windows.
Please don't use this ugly non-semantic table layout that requires a huge
maximized page.
2) Remove this big whitespace at the top of the page.
3) Validate your page.
For example:
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" />
What is this '/' doing?
It's HTML, not XHTML.
4) What's the point in fixing the font family? What's wrong with the user
CSS font?
5) Remove all this cr*p.
6) Don't abuse <br>.
7) What's the purpose of this display:none table with id="99999"? Remove
this thing on the server side! BTW, you should use more descriptive
identifiers.
Same issue with the CFForm_1 form.
8) Remove this onSubmit ECMAScript that serves no purpose.
9) Get rid of all these nested tables. This is awful.
I give up. Refactor the HTML code to get something much more semantically
correct and much smaller. This 10 kilobytes page could easily use one
kilobyte.
Don't take everything I said for an expert advice. But, I think you should
understand my concerns and take them in account.
--
If you've a question that doesn't belong to Usenet, contact me at
<tabkanDELETETHIS...@yahoDELETETHATo.fr>
Excellent points and thoughts. Thank you. Let me start with
timezone issue first. It was intended for North American audience,
however, the app did not state that. Some of the things are
inherited from the index2.cfm program. I'll start to chew on them...
On Oct 14, 1:04 pm, tatata9...@gmail.com wrote:
On Oct 14, 6:17 am, "André Gillibert"
<tabkanDELETETHIS...@yahodeletethato.frwrote:
tatata9...@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks, Chris, the idea is simple, create a useful and yet Real Simple
web app. URL,http://www.mytata.net/
Major issues:
1) It doesn't handle time correctly.
It uses a specific timezone and doesn't specify which it is. It's 10:47
where I live (UTC+02:00), but it's displayed as 4:47 am. On the web,
giving a time without specifying the timezone doesn't make sense.
You must either use UTC and clearly specify that you're using UTC or
better, use the local timezone the user wishes. Ideally, you should also
handle daily saving times, if possible. Even if you use the local timezone
specified by the user, you should show the timezone in the table.
The am/pm time system is used by US people, but, most other countries use
the time system on 24 hours (e.g. 14:30 for 2:30 pm). You should either
use the system on 24 hours (the only good system for people who travel),
or give the choice of the display system.
2) It doesn't handle date correctly.
What does 10/14/2007 means? I know that we're October the 14th and
understood that your app was hosted in the US, so I understood after a few
seconds that it used the middle-endian notation Month/Day/Year. To make
things clear, either use the ISO/IEC 8601 big-endian format (2007-10-14)
or specify the month in whole letters or let the user specify the format.
If you use the ISO/IEC format, please, specify it in the table header:
Date (YYYY-MM-DD).
3) The pages that displays the table don't display the current date and
time. That's a vital information!
4) Remove all your JavaScript links. JavaScript links in so many ways that
I cannot count them. They're just fake links that neither work correctly
for advanced users nor for newbies. Use good old anchors, without
target=_blank, please. Everybody surfing on the web is able to handle
navigation (new windows, back button, etc.) himself. And if they don't,
JavaScript links will only worsen things.
5) It's very unclear what your application is supposed to do, from the
main page.
From the main page:
This is a simple and yet powerful Time Management Tool. Simple,
initially there're only 3 functional buttons; powerful, as you become
more familar with it the tool advances and 'grows' with you (additional
functionality will automatically render itself where and when
appropriate).
You praise your system without giving any information about it! You could
shorten this paragraph to "This is a time management tool", without any
loss of information!
You'd rather specify what it does more accurately.
For example:
"
With this time management tool, if you create an account, you'll record
your activity, whatever it is, by tagging it with a name and specifying
its start and end at the time you start or end it. It'll automatically
keep track of the date, time and duration of every of your activity.
Below is an example of recorded activities:
<show short sample table below>
"
6) Thehttp://web.mytata.net:8000/myTA/myTA_logout.cfmresourcehas side
effects when an HTTP GET request is sent.
This is a very bad thing, because HTTP GET must never have side effects..
User agents rely on that fact by:
1. Caching the request.
2. Crawling the pages before any user action is taken (there's a FF plugin
that does that).
Moreover, a user or user agent should never be taken responsible for a
HTTP GET request he did.
Solution: Use a HTTP POST request for that. To do so, use an HTML form
with a logout button.
Same issue with the [Like it?] link.
7) I cannot find any way to login from an existing account without
creating a new one when the cookie is deleted (all my new cookies are
deleted when I exit my browser)! Maybe there's one, but I cannot find it!
Medium level issues:
1) The login system from the main page is very unclear.
It's unclear what the differences between "Everyone else", "Business" and
"Student" are.
In particular, the meaning of "Everyone else, follow me!" is incredibely
unclear.
It's unclear where to login.
It's unclear that the student and business account can be the same.
This first page needs refactoring.
I think that the business vs student thing should only be set as an option
in the account preferences, and as a question in the account creation
process.
In the main page:
1. Shortly explain what the service is, as I described above. The sample
table could maybe be put in the tutorial page.
2. Give a login form or a "login in an existing account" link for existing
users.
3. Give a "create new account" link.
4. Maybe, give a "tutorial" link.
Then, once somebody is logged in, go to the activity page, and provide
these links:
[Logout] [Account options] [Home]
In account options, let the user change his password, choose the timezone,
the date & time format, whether he wants to record personal activity or
business activity.
The create account screen should clearly state the policy. Whether it's
permitted to create more than one account for an individual, describe the
privacy rights, the service continuity and data persistence rights.
2) Using a very long obfuscated login as password is very weak (browsers
don't display stars when it's typed) and unconvenient.
Just let the user choose his login and password.
3) There should be a way to use HTTPS when logging in or when creating an
account, or you should use a standard HTTP authentification rather thanan
HTML form.
Minor issues:
1) In the table, you use a table header "Hours Spent" but display times
such as 5m. This is incorrect. One could think that 5m means 5
milli-hours! So, rename "Hours Spent" and "Total Hours" to "Time spent"
and "Total time".
BTW, it's very unclear what "Total hours" measures... Is it the total
activity time? The time between the start of activity in the day and the
current time of the day? The time between the start of activity in the day
and the last saved activity? This should be somehow specified.
2) It would be nice to give a HTTPS to the activity pages.
3) The three buttons activity recording system is unclear. What does
saving an activity means? The term "update state" would be better.
Things would be simplier if you integrated the idea that a human person
has an activity 100% of the time, even if it's "doing nothing", "not
working" or "unspecified".
Then, there would basically be a single button "Next activity". In the
list of possible activities, there would be two default activities: "Not
working" and "Unknown".
For saving user time, there could be a shortcut button: "Work pause" (e..g.
coffee/cigarette pause). Another shortcut: "Stop activity" would jump into
the "unknown" activity.
Notes should be understood as a different system.
You could either keep the current idea that a note is attached to a
specific activity, and, in that case, provide a separate form with a text
box and a single button [update note] that would update the note for the
current activity, or use a system where notes would be independent of
activities. They would simply be dated and integrated in the timeline of
the work.
HTTP issues:
1) Why do you use non-standard ports? Many people at work cannot access
non-standard ports because they must use a specific proxy.
There may be reasons. Could you give them.
2) Please, use simplier, more intuitive URI.http://web.mytata.net:8000/myTA/inde...ype=sisunclear.
HTML issues of the activity page:
1) I don't like having an horizontal scollbar. I've a 1152x864 screen, but
I use a left panel, and I don't use maximized windows.
Please don't use this ugly non-semantic table layout that requires a huge
maximized page.
2) Remove this big whitespace at the top of the page.
3) Validate your page.
For example:
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" />
What is this '/' doing?
It's HTML, not XHTML.
4) What's the point in fixing the font family? What's wrong with the user
CSS font?
5) Remove all this cr*p.
6) Don't abuse <br>.
7) What's the purpose of this display:none table with id="99999"? Remove
this thing on the server side! BTW, you should use more descriptive
identifiers.
Same issue with the CFForm_1 form.
8) Remove this onSubmit ECMAScript that serves no purpose.
9) Get rid of all these nested tables. This is awful.
I give up. Refactor the HTML code to get something much more semantically
correct and much smaller. This 10 kilobytes page could easily use one
kilobyte.
Don't take everything I said for an expert advice. But, I think you should
understand my concerns and take them in account.
--
If you've a question that doesn't belong to Usenet, contact me at
<tabkanDELETETHIS...@yahoDELETETHATo.fr>
Excellent points and thoughts. Thank you. Let me start with
timezone issue first. It was intended for North American audience,
however, the app did not state that. Some of the things are
inherited from the index2.cfm program. I'll start to chew on them...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
oops, correction, even within the states, there're different time
zones, just had some coffee...
<ta********@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@e9g2000prf.googlegro ups.com...
On Oct 14, 6:17 am, "André Gillibert"
<tabkanDELETETHIS...@yahodeletethato.frwrote:
tatata9...@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks, Chris, the idea is simple, create a useful and yet Real Simple
web app. URL,http://www.mytata.net/
Snipped
--
If you've a question that doesn't belong to Usenet, contact me at
<tabkanDELETETHIS...@yahoDELETETHATo.fr>
Excellent points and thoughts. Thank you. Let me start with
timezone issue first. It was intended for North American audience,
however, the app did not state that. Some of the things are
inherited from the index2.cfm program. I'll start to chew on them...
For a long time I have taken the "write it once and sell it many times"
approach to wriiting software. In any bespoke software I have always tried
to consider the general case, the wider market, before settling on the
specifics required. This has saved much heartache in many a project because
users change their minds, and a resilient and versatile design really helps.
Units of measure are one area where "constants" are often better expressed
as variables. I learned this doing a lot of contract work modding apps when
the U.K. went decimal, year 2000, and as a result of foreign takeovers.
Practise has improved considerably over the years.
David F. Cox
On Oct 14, 4:22 pm, "David Cox" <nos...@nospam.comwrote:
<tatata9...@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@e9g2000prf.googlegro ups.com...
On Oct 14, 6:17 am, "André Gillibert"
<tabkanDELETETHIS...@yahodeletethato.frwrote:
tatata9...@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks, Chris, the idea is simple, create a useful and yet Real Simple
web app. URL,http://www.mytata.net/
Snipped
--
If you've a question that doesn't belong to Usenet, contact me at
<tabkanDELETETHIS...@yahoDELETETHATo.fr>
Excellent points and thoughts. Thank you. Let me start with
timezone issue first. It was intended for North American audience,
however, the app did not state that. Some of the things are
inherited from the index2.cfm program. I'll start to chew on them...
For a long time I have taken the "write it once and sell it many times"
approach to wriiting software. In any bespoke software I have always tried
to consider the general case, the wider market, before settling on the
specifics required. This has saved much heartache in many a project because
users change their minds, and a resilient and versatile design really helps.
Units of measure are one area where "constants" are often better expressed
as variables. I learned this doing a lot of contract work modding apps when
the U.K. went decimal, year 2000, and as a result of foreign takeovers.
Practise has improved considerably over the years.
David F. Cox
Thank you for your thought, David, per André Gillibert, I took a crack
at UTC, my concern is, I don't have resources to market to the bigger
market...
On Oct 14, 5:34 pm, tatata9...@gmail.com wrote:
On Oct 14, 4:22 pm, "David Cox" <nos...@nospam.comwrote:
<tatata9...@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@e9g2000prf.googlegro ups.com...
On Oct 14, 6:17 am, "André Gillibert"
<tabkanDELETETHIS...@yahodeletethato.frwrote:
tatata9...@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks, Chris, the idea is simple, create a useful and yet Real Simple
web app. URL,http://www.mytata.net/
Snipped
--
If you've a question that doesn't belong to Usenet, contact me at
<tabkanDELETETHIS...@yahoDELETETHATo.fr>
Excellent points and thoughts. Thank you. Let me start with
timezone issue first. It was intended for North American audience,
however, the app did not state that. Some of the things are
inherited from the index2.cfm program. I'll start to chew on them...
For a long time I have taken the "write it once and sell it many times"
approach to wriiting software. In any bespoke software I have always tried
to consider the general case, the wider market, before settling on the
specifics required. This has saved much heartache in many a project because
users change their minds, and a resilient and versatile design really helps.
Units of measure are one area where "constants" are often better expressed
as variables. I learned this doing a lot of contract work modding apps when
the U.K. went decimal, year 2000, and as a result of foreign takeovers.
Practise has improved considerably over the years.
David F. Cox
Thank you for your thought, David, per André Gillibert, I took a crack
at UTC, my concern is, I don't have resources to market to the bigger
market...- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
André Gillibert and David F. Cox and Chris and all,
I've revised it to support UTC. Please take a look at it when you
have a chance (backend complex/conflicting sql caused me serious
headache, why he?? not working...; other suggestions not implemented
yet, will definitely consider all.
Many thanks.
Don
On Oct 11, 7:59 pm, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fmwrote:
Thu, 11 Oct 2007 08:49:07 +0300 from Jukka K. Korpela
<jkorp...@cs.tut.fi>:
Scripsit tatata9...@gmail.com:
Thanks.
You're welcome. Now please read a primer on Usenet before bothering us more.
Get educated, or get killfiled.
http://improve-usenet.org/
"Most of the people who post to Usenet via the clunky Google Groups
web interface are lusers or lamers..."
What an idiotic generalisation - the use of hip gamer jargon further
erodes any chance of respect for the opinions expressed.
"Because of their use of a clunky Usenet web interface (and all Usenet
web interfaces suck - Usenet wasn't designed for webification..."
The web wasn't invented when Usenet was developed, the logic shows
considerable ignorance. Are cattle unsuitable for transportation
because they were invented before trucks?
"...and does not need webification),..."
What are the criteria for "webification"? Is the use of the WWW
limited to some subset of applications sanctioned by the author? Are
cattle unsuitable for transportation because they have legs?
"...they have no idea what Usenet is, how it works, or how to use it
properly. And they don't want to learn."
Absolute rubbish. Does the use of a news reader make someone an
instant Usenet guru?
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
[... trimmed 6 lines...]
http://diveintomark.org/archives/200..._wont_help_you
I think that says it all.
--
Rob
RobG wrote:
On Oct 11, 7:59 pm, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fmwrote:
>>
http://improve-usenet.org/
"Most of the people who post to Usenet via the clunky Google Groups
web interface are lusers or lamers..."
What an idiotic generalisation - the use of hip gamer jargon further
erodes any chance of respect for the opinions expressed.
I bet you're only saying that because you posted through the clunky GG.
;) I find it amusing that you're taking it so personally. If you truly
are not the typical GG luser or lamer I'd expect you to have donned your
teflon-coated flame-retardant Usenet suit and ignore such statements.
"...they have no idea what Usenet is, how it works, or how to use it
properly. And they don't want to learn."
Absolute rubbish. Does the use of a news reader make someone an
instant Usenet guru?
No, nor should it. It does show, however, that they at least have the
potential for cluefulness. The huge majority of google gropers don't
have it - a fact that has become painfully obvious to the rest of us.
--
Berg
On Oct 17, 11:42 pm, Bergamot <berga...@visi.comwrote:
RobG wrote:
On Oct 11, 7:59 pm, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fmwrote:
>http://improve-usenet.org/
"Most of the people who post to Usenet via the clunky Google Groups
web interface are lusers or lamers..."
What an idiotic generalisation - the use of hip gamer jargon further
erodes any chance of respect for the opinions expressed.
I bet you're only saying that because you posted through the clunky GG.
;)
In part, but not solely.
I find it amusing that you're taking it so personally. If you truly
are not the typical GG luser or lamer I'd expect you to have donned your
teflon-coated flame-retardant Usenet suit and ignore such statements.
I just get annoyed that people write such rubbish and others then
quote it to support their own petty agendas. Yes, I can cop as good
as anyone here can give, but that doesn't change the fact that glib,
discriminatory generalisations should be called for what they are.
"...they have no idea what Usenet is, how it works, or how to use it
properly. And they don't want to learn."
Absolute rubbish. Does the use of a news reader make someone an
instant Usenet guru?
No, nor should it. It does show, however, that they at least have the
potential for cluefulness. The huge majority of google gropers don't
have it - a fact that has become painfully obvious to the rest of us.
I disagree. The GG web interface to Usenet is the first contact that
many new users have with news groups. It is to be expected that if
you make discussion forums more widely available by allowing access
via a new medium, you will get a disproportionate number of novices
using that medium. It is the responsibility of the community to
educate such users in etiquette so that they may possibly become
useful contributors, not to dismiss them as worthless clutter simply
because they come to the community via a particular medium.
--
Rob
RobG wrote:
>
It is the responsibility of the community to
educate such users in etiquette so that they may possibly become
useful contributors, not to dismiss them as worthless clutter simply
because they come to the community via a particular medium.
Perhaps you haven't noticed the signal-to-noise ratio of those posting
through google groups. The worthless clutter drowns out the possibly
useful contributors so much so that it isn't worth the trouble to find
the few who *want* to be educated.
--
Berg
Bergamot wrote:
RobG wrote:
>>
It is the responsibility of the community to
educate such users in etiquette so that they may possibly become
useful contributors, not to dismiss them as worthless clutter simply
because they come to the community via a particular medium.
Perhaps you haven't noticed the signal-to-noise ratio of those posting
through google groups. The worthless clutter drowns out the possibly
useful contributors so much so that it isn't worth the trouble to find
the few who *want* to be educated.
"Sleep with dogs; wake up with fleas."
--
Blinky RLU 297263
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project - http://improve-usenet.org
On Oct 18, 4:38 pm, Blinky the Shark <no.s...@box.invalidwrote:
Bergamot wrote:
RobG wrote:
It is the responsibility of the community to
educate such users in etiquette so that they may possibly become
useful contributors, not to dismiss them as worthless clutter simply
because they come to the community via a particular medium.
Perhaps you haven't noticed the signal-to-noise ratio of those posting
through google groups. The worthless clutter drowns out the possibly
useful contributors so much so that it isn't worth the trouble to find
the few who *want* to be educated.
"Sleep with dogs; wake up with fleas."
--
Blinky RLU 297263
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project -http://improve-usenet.org
Shut the fk up, useless asshol?
On Oct 18, 10:38 am, Bergamot <berga...@visi.comwrote:
RobG wrote:
It is the responsibility of the community to
educate such users in etiquette so that they may possibly become
useful contributors, not to dismiss them as worthless clutter simply
because they come to the community via a particular medium.
Perhaps you haven't noticed the signal-to-noise ratio of those posting
through google groups. The worthless clutter drowns out the possibly
useful contributors so much so that it isn't worth the trouble to find
the few who *want* to be educated.
--
Berg
" possibly useful contributors "
Look yourself up in the mirror before you open your big mouth.
In comp.infosystems. www.authoring.html message
<op.t0c20st07pu1mk@andre>, Wed, 17 Oct 2007 23:51:54, André Gillibert
<ta*****************@yahodeletethato.frposted:
>2) Because there're insane countries (France is among them) using DST
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time), people will
change the time between UTC+2 and UTC+1. It would be better to show
(as an option) the timezone for every date or indicate "All times are
UTC+NN" near the table.
Time zones are geographically fixed, except when occasionally altered
governmentally. They only give the winter or all-year difference from
UTC/GMT. Your NN above does not give the Zone; it gives the current
Offset.
>3) GMT time isn't used anymore for normal people.
It is the legal standard in the UK (though we actually use UTC).
>You let the user choose between GMT+NN times, but you should propose
UTC+NN times.
The difference is at most 0.9 seconds, but with the UTC time, every
second has the same duration at the cost of introducing leap seconds.
The fact is: Everybody uses UTC, even if many people abusively call it GMT.
No; almost everybody uses localised UT, with 60 seconds in *every*
minute; and they treat localised UTC as an adequate approximation to
what they want.
>In that case, you should probably save the information of the current
timezone with every date. Then, the table would show the timezone for
every date.
The data should be saved in UTC, together with the applicable Offset.
>2) The user-friendly way:
Give an option to choose the country.
The time would automatically be adjusted by your system with the local
country rules.
Knowing the country is not always sufficient to define either the offset
from GMT or the local change times. Consider RU, US, CA, AU. And NL,
since AIUI a part of NL is in the Caribbean (they wanted a mountain?).
--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v6.05 IE 6.
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/- FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
I find MiniTrue useful for viewing/searching/altering files, at a DOS prompt;
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