html for print

[Jeff Thies]

I have a club newsletter that is currently distributed as a PDF. I'm
considering converting this to html...

Several problems ensue.

1) PDF's can be formatted for a page to fit on a sheet of 8.5 * 11
paper. I'm not sure how to this in HTML.

2) A PDF can be set to print all pages. I'm not sure how to do this with
html either. Suggesting page breaks (in CSS) and having this as a single
document is one option. Where to set the page break is an educated
guess for me.

3) I don't think multicolumn support is common in CSS yet. (where a
column automatically flows to the next). At least I've never done that!

Any ideas?

Cheers,
Jeff

[Stan Brown]

Mon, 02 Jan 2006 05:00:00 GMT from Jeff Thies
<je**@spamalana dingong.com>:

I have a club newsletter that is currently distributed as a PDF. I'm
considering converting this to html...
Why? What benefit do you expect your users to get? Or what is wrong
with your present distribution in PDF? Too often people expend great
effort for no very clear benefit because they think they "should" be
using a particular sexy technology.
1) PDF's can be formatted for a page to fit on a sheet of 8.5 * 11
paper. I'm not sure how to this in HTML.
It's automatically done by the user's browser and print spooler --
not necessarily 8.5 by 11, of course, but the user's own selected
paper size.
2) A PDF can be set to print all pages. I'm not sure how to do this with
html either.
There's no way. Every browser that I know of gives you the option to
print specified pages. But then, so does Acrobat Reader, so I don't
understand why this is an issue for you.
Suggesting page breaks (in CSS) and having this as a single
document is one option. Where to set the page break is an educated
guess for me.
And you're more than likely to guess wrong, since you don't know the
user's point size and type face. Even if you specify them in CSS, the
user can override them -- a good thing for visually impaired folks.
3) I don't think multicolumn support is common in CSS yet. (where a
column automatically flows to the next).

This has been discussed extensively, and the short answer is that
there's no reliable way to do newspaper-style columns in HTML and
CSS.
I think you need to make up your mind whether you want to control the
appearance of the newsletter or not. If you do, continue with PDF. If
you want to transmit _information_ rather than page layouts, be
prepared to embrace the flexibility of Web browsers rather than try
to fight them.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2.1 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Why We Won't Help You:
http://diveintomark.org/archives/200..._wont_help_you

[Jeff Thies]

Stan Brown wrote:

Mon, 02 Jan 2006 05:00:00 GMT from Jeff Thies
<je**@spamalana dingong.com>:

I have a club newsletter that is currently distributed as a PDF. I'm
considering converting this to html...

Why? What benefit do you expect your users to get?

This is done in MS Publisher currently. I have little desire to learn it
or teach my girlfriend how to use it (who volunteered to take over the
newsletter). For me, setting this up to be edited in html is much easier.

Cheers,
Jeff
Or what is wrong
with your present distribution in PDF? Too often people expend great
effort for no very clear benefit because they think they "should" be
using a particular sexy technology.

1) PDF's can be formatted for a page to fit on a sheet of 8.5 * 11
paper. I'm not sure how to this in HTML.

It's automatically done by the user's browser and print spooler --
not necessarily 8.5 by 11, of course, but the user's own selected
paper size.

2) A PDF can be set to print all pages. I'm not sure how to do this with
html either.

There's no way. Every browser that I know of gives you the option to
print specified pages. But then, so does Acrobat Reader, so I don't
understand why this is an issue for you.

Suggesting page breaks (in CSS) and having this as a single
document is one option. Where to set the page break is an educated
guess for me.

And you're more than likely to guess wrong, since you don't know the
user's point size and type face. Even if you specify them in CSS, the
user can override them -- a good thing for visually impaired folks.

3) I don't think multicolumn support is common in CSS yet. (where a
column automatically flows to the next).

This has been discussed extensively, and the short answer is that
there's no reliable way to do newspaper-style columns in HTML and
CSS.
I think you need to make up your mind whether you want to control the
appearance of the newsletter or not. If you do, continue with PDF. If
you want to transmit _information_ rather than page layouts, be
prepared to embrace the flexibility of Web browsers rather than try
to fight them.

[Barbara de Zoete]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 06:00:00 +0100, Jeff Thies <je**@spamalana dingong.com>
wrote:

I have a club newsletter that is currently distributed as a PDF. I'm
considering converting this to html...

Several problems ensue.

1) PDF's can be formatted for a page to fit on a sheet of 8.5 * 11
paper. I'm not sure how to this in HTML.

2) A PDF can be set to print all pages. I'm not sure how to do this with
html either. Suggesting page breaks (in CSS) and having this as a single
document is one option. Where to set the page break is an educated
guess for me.

3) I don't think multicolumn support is common in CSS yet. (where a
column automatically flows to the next). At least I've never done that!

Any ideas?

Yep, sounds to me that PDF is the way to go, looking at what you want the
document to do/be. You could consider priting before distributing :-)

Seriously, if this is what you need/want from the document, use PDF.
That's what they're fore. Looking at your other post in this thread, the
reply to Stan Brown: just remember that it might be a lot more easy to
have someone learn how to use a program to create a nice looking PDF[1],
than to have the same person learn how to create a properly marked up html
document that works for everyone you intend it for.
--
,-- --<--@ -- PretLetters: 'woest wyf', met vele interesses: ----------.
| weblog | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html |
| webontwerp | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html |
|zweefvliegen | http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html |
`-------------------------------------------------- --<--@ ------------'

[Roy Schestowitz]

__/ [Jeff Thies] on Monday 02 January 2006 08:15 \__

Stan Brown wrote:

Mon, 02 Jan 2006 05:00:00 GMT from Jeff Thies
<je**@spamalana dingong.com>:

I have a club newsletter that is currently distributed as a PDF. I'm
considerin g converting this to html...

Why? What benefit do you expect your users to get?

I can think of a few off the top of my head:

* Fast opening time

* Versatility

* Easy access to text

* Mobility (number of PDF readers for PDA's/mobile devices versus HTML
readers)

I once tried to do what the OP is after, but ended up frustrated. In case
this helps, here are (were) my fundings:

This is done in MS Publisher currently. I have little desire to learn it
or teach my girlfriend how to use it (who volunteered to take over the
newsletter). For me, setting this up to be edited in html is much easier.

Cheers,
Jeff

Or what is wrong
with your present distribution in PDF? Too often people expend great
effort for no very clear benefit because they think they "should" be
using a particular sexy technology.

1) PDF's can be formatted for a page to fit on a sheet of 8.5 * 11
paper. I'm not sure how to this in HTML.

It's automatically done by the user's browser and print spooler --
not necessarily 8.5 by 11, of course, but the user's own selected
paper size.

2) A PDF can be set to print all pages. I'm not sure how to do this with
html either.

There's no way. Every browser that I know of gives you the option to
print specified pages. But then, so does Acrobat Reader, so I don't
understand why this is an issue for you.

Suggesting page breaks (in CSS) and having this as a single
document is one option. Where to set the page break is an educated
guess for me.

And you're more than likely to guess wrong, since you don't know the
user's point size and type face. Even if you specify them in CSS, the
user can override them -- a good thing for visually impaired folks.

3) I don't think multicolumn support is common in CSS yet. (where a
column automatically flows to the next).

This has been discussed extensively, and the short answer is that
there's no reliable way to do newspaper-style columns in HTML and
CSS.
I think you need to make up your mind whether you want to control the
appearance of the newsletter or not. If you do, continue with PDF. If
you want to transmit _information_ rather than page layouts, be
prepared to embrace the flexibility of Web browsers rather than try
to fight them.

--
Roy S. Schestowitz | Useless fact: Florida is bigger than England
http://Schestowitz.com | SuSE Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
11:05am up 22 days 18:16, 14 users, load average: 0.47, 0.46, 0.51
http://iuron.com - next generation of search paradigms

[Roy Schestowitz]

__/ [Jeff Thies] on Monday 02 January 2006 08:15 \__

Stan Brown wrote:

Mon, 02 Jan 2006 05:00:00 GMT from Jeff Thies
<je**@spamalana dingong.com>:

I have a club newsletter that is currently distributed as a PDF. I'm
considerin g converting this to html...

Why? What benefit do you expect your users to get?

I can think of a few. Off the top of my head:

* Fast opening time

* Versatility

* Easy access to text

* Mobility (number of PDF readers for PDA's/mobile devices versus HTML
readers)

I once tried to do what the OP is after, but ended up frustrated. In case
this helps, here are (were) my findings:

http://schestowitz.com/Weblog/archiv...4/pdf-to-html/

This is done in MS Publisher currently. I have little desire to learn it
or teach my girlfriend how to use it (who volunteered to take over the
newsletter). For me, setting this up to be edited in html is much easier.

Cheers,
Jeff

No need for MS publisher. PDF can be easily produced using LaTeX or a
front-end to LaTeX such as LyX or Kile. You can also convert HTML to very
clean PDF. It doesn't cost a dime and doesn't need Acrobat Pro. If you are a
home user, the financial aspect of this might become a factor that's more
than a PITA.

Or what is wrong
with your present distribution in PDF? Too often people expend great
effort for no very clear benefit because they think they "should" be
using a particular sexy technology.

1) PDF's can be formatted for a page to fit on a sheet of 8.5 * 11
paper. I'm not sure how to this in HTML.

It's automatically done by the user's browser and print spooler --
not necessarily 8.5 by 11, of course, but the user's own selected
paper size.

I believe that PDF's can be sent to the printer in a variety of alternative
forms. A4 (or another preset size) is not carved in stone.

2) A PDF can be set to print all pages. I'm not sure how to do this with
html either.

There's no way. Every browser that I know of gives you the option to
print specified pages. But then, so does Acrobat Reader, so I don't
understand why this is an issue for you.

Suggesting page breaks (in CSS) and having this as a single
document is one option. Where to set the page break is an educated
guess for me.

And you're more than likely to guess wrong, since you don't know the
user's point size and type face. Even if you specify them in CSS, the
user can override them -- a good thing for visually impaired folks.

Yes, the paper-inequivalence in HTML is a big issue. What about floats and
dynamic decisions as to where images should be placed? How can such a
monster be rendered on-the-fly to 'emulate' a PDF?

3) I don't think multicolumn support is common in CSS yet. (where a
column automatically flows to the next).

This has been discussed extensively, and the short answer is that
there's no reliable way to do newspaper-style columns in HTML and
CSS.

Newspaper Web sites are often criticised for stubbornly attempting to do
this. They deliver distracting content and very unappealing layout that
confuses the reader. They stick to what they learned and embraced over the
many decades.

I think you need to make up your mind whether you want to control the
appearance of the newsletter or not. If you do, continue with PDF. If
you want to transmit _information_ rather than page layouts, be
prepared to embrace the flexibility of Web browsers rather than try
to fight them.

Make both versions available. I try to convert many of my pages to PDF's (not
making them accessibly to crawlers because of duplication). I also try to
make PDF's available as HTML, which is easier if you achieve if you work in
LaTeX and then export. Given all the semantics (structure), you can export
to HTML using your favourite conversion. latex2html is my favourite. Then
you add your favourite stylesheets.

Best wishes,

Roy

[Philip Ronan]

In article <kr************ *****@newsread3 .news.atl.earth link.net>,
Jeff Thies <je**@spamalana dingong.com> wrote:

I don't think multicolumn support is common in CSS yet. (where a
column automatically flows to the next). At least I've never done that!

You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that web pages and printed
documents should have identical layouts. This is not only impossible (as
Stan pointed out); it's also undesirable.

The web is a flexible medium where the end user has a great deal of
control over the appearance of your content. Print layouts with fixed
font sizes and page widths just aren't suitable for the web.

You might want to consider using Adobe InDesign to produce your
newsletter. It can work from XML files, so you would be able to use the
same content in diferent layouts tailored for PDF and web output.

--
philronan [@] blueyonder [dot] co [dot] uk