FAQ / Charter?

[Duncan Bayne]

Hi All,

Is there a FAQ or Charter for this group? There seems to be an awful
lot of off-topic posting, i.e. stuff that has nothing to do with C#. I
used to be a comp.lang.c regular, and find the signal-to-noise ratio
here *very* low.

Many posters seem confused between the C# language and functionality
provided by the Framework, and there are many posts that have nothing to
do with .NET (e.g. an 'how do I?' question to which the answer involves
a Win32 .DLL and PInvoke).

IMO, groups like this could provide an excellent way to learn a language
- start off observing, then posting questions, then answering them,
thereby keeping ones skills sharp. This group doesn't seem
well-focussed enough to do that.

I don't mean this as a criticism - I'm simply trying to get an handle on
what this group is for. Perhaps there'd be a demand for a separate
group, like comp.lang.csharp?

--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Duncan Bayne phone [phone] email dh*****@ihug.co.nz |
| ============ icq# 115621676 msn dh*****@hotmail.com |
| |
| web http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dhbayne/ |
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akl_airsoft/ |
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wakeup_nz/ |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly |
| is to fill the world with fools." |
| |
| - Herbert Spencer. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+

[Jim]

You're probably right... And I'm sure that will come with
time. For the moment, I suspect that this group is
somewhat of a "catch-all", because a lot of people wanting
to learn .NET are coming in here with modest C++
experience, and not really knowing what C# is, as you
said. Personally, I'm knid of new to C#, and it's turning
out to be not at all what I had expected in many
erspects. I had thought of it as an "enhancement" to C++,
if not an outright upgrade or extension of the language,
but it's starting to look more like Java and appears to
have a few hurdles for the C++ person to overcome.

Oh, by the way... You don't happen to know how pointers
work, do you? (just kidding... LOL)
JIM

-----Original Message-----
Hi All,

Is there a FAQ or Charter for this group? There seems to be an awfullot of off-topic posting, i.e. stuff that has nothing to do with C#. Iused to be a comp.lang.c regular, and find the signal-to- noise ratiohere *very* low.

Many posters seem confused between the C# language and functionalityprovided by the Framework, and there are many posts that have nothing todo with .NET (e.g. an 'how do I?' question to which the answer involvesa Win32 .DLL and PInvoke).

IMO, groups like this could provide an excellent way to learn a language- start off observing, then posting questions, then answering them,thereby keeping ones skills sharp. This group doesn't seemwell-focussed enough to do that.

I don't mean this as a criticism - I'm simply trying to get an handle onwhat this group is for. Perhaps there'd be a demand for a separategroup, like comp.lang.csharp?

--
+--------------------------------------------------------- --------+| Duncan Bayne phone [phone] email dh*****@ihug.co.nz || ============ icq# 115621676 msn dh*****@hotmail.com || || web http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dhbayne/ || http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akl_airsoft/ || http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wakeup_nz/ |+--------------------------------------------------------- --------+| "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly || is to fill the world with fools." || || - Herbert Spencer. |+--------------------------------------------------------- --------+
.

[Duncan Bayne]

Jim wrote:

You're probably right... And I'm sure that will come with
time. For the moment, I suspect that this group is
somewhat of a "catch-all", because a lot of people wanting
to learn .NET are coming in here with modest C++
experience, and not really knowing what C# is, as you
said. Personally, I'm knid of new to C#, and it's turning
out to be not at all what I had expected in many
erspects. I had thought of it as an "enhancement" to C++,
if not an outright upgrade or extension of the language,
but it's starting to look more like Java and appears to
have a few hurdles for the C++ person to overcome.
Perhaps we need a FAQ like comp.lang.c has, with an explanation of C#,
ECMA, the Framework etc., and a HOWTO section covering the basics & most
frequently asked questions. So, when someone posts "how do I convert a
string to an int" for the millionth time, we say "RTFF - Section 5.1".
Oh, by the way... You don't happen to know how pointers
work, do you? (just kidding... LOL)

ROFL :-)

--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Duncan Bayne phone [phone] email dh*****@ihug.co.nz |
| ============ icq# 115621676 msn dh*****@hotmail.com |
| |
| web http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dhbayne/ |
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akl_airsoft/ |
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wakeup_nz/ |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly |
| is to fill the world with fools." |
| |
| - Herbert Spencer. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

Duncan Bayne <dh*****@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

Jim wrote:

You're probably right... And I'm sure that will come with
time. For the moment, I suspect that this group is
somewhat of a "catch-all", because a lot of people wanting
to learn .NET are coming in here with modest C++
experience, and not really knowing what C# is, as you
said. Personally, I'm knid of new to C#, and it's turning
out to be not at all what I had expected in many
erspects. I had thought of it as an "enhancement" to C++,
if not an outright upgrade or extension of the language,
but it's starting to look more like Java and appears to
have a few hurdles for the C++ person to overcome.

Perhaps we need a FAQ like comp.lang.c has, with an explanation of C#,
ECMA, the Framework etc., and a HOWTO section covering the basics & most
frequently asked questions. So, when someone posts "how do I convert a
string to an int" for the millionth time, we say "RTFF - Section 5.1".

I've been thinking just the same thing in the last few days. I'd be
happy to have a crack at a first draft, if people are okay with that. I
can host it and maintain it as well if no-one else wants to - but I
don't want to end up being seen as the real "owner" for it.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[Daniel O'Connell]

"Duncan Bayne" <dh*****@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:O1**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

Hi All,

Is there a FAQ or Charter for this group? There seems to be an awful
lot of off-topic posting, i.e. stuff that has nothing to do with C#. I
used to be a comp.lang.c regular, and find the signal-to-noise ratio
here *very* low.

Seeing as this is a non-moderated group, I wouldn't suspect a FAQ or Charter
would matter(there may be one, but I've never heard about it). Most people
don't bother to read such things and will continue to post what they want
anyway. I mean, if we can't convince people to stay on microsoft technology
in general, keeping it to just C# would be a considerable trick.
Many posters seem confused between the C# language and functionality
provided by the Framework, and there are many posts that have nothing to
do with .NET (e.g. an 'how do I?' question to which the answer involves
a Win32 .DLL and PInvoke).
Many people seem to think "Well, i'm using C# so I'll ask in the C# group".
I personally have no real problem with it, I read plenty of groups and am
not always fully aware of what group I'm reading anyway. Its just a matter
of life, and you can still pick up some interesting language based concepts
from threads that aren't specifically about language support.
On the plus side, you don't have the problem you do in mpd.general, where a
poster asks for an answer but never bothers to specify a language, then
fusses when you don't respond in the langauge they want.

IMO, groups like this could provide an excellent way to learn a language
- start off observing, then posting questions, then answering them,
thereby keeping ones skills sharp. This group doesn't seem
well-focussed enough to do that.
Unlike C\C++, as it stands, C# isn't a very complicated language. If this
group covered nothing but language issues I wouldn't expect there would
really be a whole lot going on here, probably down in the 5-10 posts a day,
probably mostly repeats(how do you overload '=' comes to mind). While I
would like to see more focused posts, what point is there in a group that
has so little traffic, when it very well could be subsumed by another one?

I don't mean this as a criticism - I'm simply trying to get an handle on
what this group is for. Perhaps there'd be a demand for a separate
group, like comp.lang.csharp?
Although I don't know offhand where I read this, but I think there has been
one proposed and possibly being voted on....I don't remember.
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Duncan Bayne phone [phone] email dh*****@ihug.co.nz |
| ============ icq# 115621676 msn dh*****@hotmail.com |
| |
| web http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dhbayne/ |
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akl_airsoft/ |
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wakeup_nz/ |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly |
| is to fill the world with fools." |
| |
| - Herbert Spencer. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+

[Duncan Bayne]

Daniel O'Connell wrote:

Seeing as this is a non-moderated group, I wouldn't suspect a FAQ or Charter
would matter(there may be one, but I've never heard about it).
You'd be surprised :-) comp.lang.c is unmoderated, but there are a
number of well-known 'topicality gurus' who quickly redirect off-topic
posters to appropriate fora.
Most people
don't bother to read such things and will continue to post what they want
anyway. I mean, if we can't convince people to stay on microsoft technology
in general, keeping it to just C# would be a considerable trick.
Ah, but should m.p.d.l.c be solely restricted to Microsoft
implementations of C#?
On the plus side, you don't have the problem you do in mpd.general, where a
poster asks for an answer but never bothers to specify a language, then
fusses when you don't respond in the langauge they want.
Ouch. And *they're* the people who'll give whatever language they're
using a bad reputation.
Unlike C\C++,
There's no such language as C\C++ :-)
as it stands, C# isn't a very complicated language. If this
group covered nothing but language issues I wouldn't expect there would
really be a whole lot going on here, probably down in the 5-10 posts a day,
probably mostly repeats(how do you overload '=' comes to mind). While I
would like to see more focused posts, what point is there in a group that
has so little traffic, when it very well could be subsumed by another one?
There's quite a bit in the standard, IIRC. At any rate, that sounds
like a C#-specific group would be a good idea.
Although I don't know offhand where I read this, but I think there has been
one proposed and possibly being voted on....I don't remember.

I'll go hunting then, & post back once I find (or don't find) more info.

--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Duncan Bayne phone [phone] email dh*****@ihug.co.nz |
| ============ icq# 115621676 msn dh*****@hotmail.com |
| |
| web http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dhbayne/ |
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akl_airsoft/ |
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wakeup_nz/ |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly |
| is to fill the world with fools." |
| |
| - Herbert Spencer. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+

[Daniel O'Connell]

"Duncan Bayne" <dh*****@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:uR**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

Daniel O'Connell wrote:

Seeing as this is a non-moderated group, I wouldn't suspect a FAQ or Charter would matter(there may be one, but I've never heard about it).
You'd be surprised :-) comp.lang.c is unmoderated, but there are a
number of well-known 'topicality gurus' who quickly redirect off-topic
posters to appropriate fora.

Heh, we can't even seem to get the linux and java trolls to stop posting
inane and off topic stuff to these groups... I can't say I have much faith
in good behaviour on a microsoft newsgroup, there are just too many people
who will be pests simply because microsoft is in the name.

Also, you have to face that, right now, C# is a buzz word and is probably
going to get more attention than C. I'm sure similar things happend in java
groups, etc, when they got hot. To many people asking questions and too few
places to ask them.

Most people
don't bother to read such things and will continue to post what they want anyway. I mean, if we can't convince people to stay on microsoft technology in general, keeping it to just C# would be a considerable trick.
Ah, but should m.p.d.l.c be solely restricted to Microsoft
implementations of C#?

That wasn't specifically what I meant. Ideally it probably should be,
considering the word microsoft is in the name. The proposed comp.lang.csharp
group would be the more general option, I'd think.
But, if you look, you see posts that are totally irrelevent across the
entire spectrum of groups..

On the plus side, you don't have the problem you do in mpd.general, where a poster asks for an answer but never bothers to specify a language, then
fusses when you don't respond in the langauge they want.
Ouch. And *they're* the people who'll give whatever language they're
using a bad reputation.

Unlike C\C++,

There's no such language as C\C++ :-)

> as it stands, C# isn't a very complicated language. If this
group covered nothing but language issues I wouldn't expect there would
really be a whole lot going on here, probably down in the 5-10 posts a day, probably mostly repeats(how do you overload '=' comes to mind). While I
would like to see more focused posts, what point is there in a group that has so little traffic, when it very well could be subsumed by another one?
There's quite a bit in the standard, IIRC. At any rate, that sounds
like a C#-specific group would be a good idea.
There is quite a bit in the spec, but due to the low number of posts here
about it, it pretty much isn't as questioned as one might think. I've seen
maybe 3 or 4 dozen spec questions over the last year.
A C# specific group is interesting, however I'm still unsure of the lines.
But, its really not that important.

Although I don't know offhand where I read this, but I think there has

been one proposed and possibly being voted on....I don't remember.

I'll go hunting then, & post back once I find (or don't find) more info.

--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| Duncan Bayne phone [phone] email dh*****@ihug.co.nz |
| ============ icq# 115621676 msn dh*****@hotmail.com |
| |
| web http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dhbayne/ |
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/akl_airsoft/ |
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wakeup_nz/ |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly |
| is to fill the world with fools." |
| |
| - Herbert Spencer. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+

[Daniel O'Connell]

"Jon Skeet [C# MVP]" <sk***@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MP************************@msnews.microsoft.c om...

Duncan Bayne <dh*****@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

Jim wrote:

You're probably right... And I'm sure that will come with
time. For the moment, I suspect that this group is
somewhat of a "catch-all", because a lot of people wanting
to learn .NET are coming in here with modest C++
experience, and not really knowing what C# is, as you
said. Personally, I'm knid of new to C#, and it's turning
out to be not at all what I had expected in many
erspects. I had thought of it as an "enhancement" to C++,
if not an outright upgrade or extension of the language,
but it's starting to look more like Java and appears to
have a few hurdles for the C++ person to overcome.
Perhaps we need a FAQ like comp.lang.c has, with an explanation of C#,
ECMA, the Framework etc., and a HOWTO section covering the basics & most
frequently asked questions. So, when someone posts "how do I convert a
string to an int" for the millionth time, we say "RTFF - Section 5.1".

I've been thinking just the same thing in the last few days. I'd be
happy to have a crack at a first draft, if people are okay with that. I
can host it and maintain it as well if no-one else wants to - but I
don't want to end up being seen as the real "owner" for it.

It sounds fine to me. As it is your website is probably as close to a FAQ
there is on this group. Its used to answer questions more often than
anything except perhaps the GDI+ faq and MSDN.
That said, I'm willing to help if I can.
--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

[Richard A. Lowe]

Sounds great to me (doubly so as you are probably the most 'agnostic'
between C#/Java of any regular poster on any m.p.dotnet group) - if you need
help proof reading or with constructive comments, I'm here..

Richard
--
Veuillez m'excuser, mon Français est très pauvre. Cependant, si vous voyez
mauvais C #, c'est mon défaut!
"Jon Skeet [C# MVP]" <sk***@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MP************************@msnews.microsoft.c om...

Duncan Bayne <dh*****@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

Jim wrote:

You're probably right... And I'm sure that will come with
time. For the moment, I suspect that this group is
somewhat of a "catch-all", because a lot of people wanting
to learn .NET are coming in here with modest C++
experience, and not really knowing what C# is, as you
said. Personally, I'm knid of new to C#, and it's turning
out to be not at all what I had expected in many
erspects. I had thought of it as an "enhancement" to C++,
if not an outright upgrade or extension of the language,
but it's starting to look more like Java and appears to
have a few hurdles for the C++ person to overcome.

Perhaps we need a FAQ like comp.lang.c has, with an explanation of C#,
ECMA, the Framework etc., and a HOWTO section covering the basics & most
frequently asked questions. So, when someone posts "how do I convert a
string to an int" for the millionth time, we say "RTFF - Section 5.1".

I've been thinking just the same thing in the last few days. I'd be
happy to have a crack at a first draft, if people are okay with that. I
can host it and maintain it as well if no-one else wants to - but I
don't want to end up being seen as the real "owner" for it.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too