dumb question?

[PJ6]

Are there any plans for broswers to support a real language client-side, and
not just "cripple script"? Will we ever have the luxury of programming using
Framework classes client-side some day?

Paul

[Curt_C [MVP]]

Sure... it's called WinForms.
Seriously though, the security risk is so great that most would never allow
it to be installed.

--
Curt Christianson
site: http://www.darkfalz.com
blog: http://blog.darkfalz.com

"PJ6" wrote:

Are there any plans for broswers to support a real language client-side, and
not just "cripple script"? Will we ever have the luxury of programming using
Framework classes client-side some day?

Paul

[sreejith.ram]

The reason, for client side langauges having restricted features, is
security concerns. Seeing the frequency viruses/hacks are being
announced, I belive it will only become even more restricted in the
future :)

[Oliver Wong]

"PJ6" <no****@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:u2**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

Are there any plans for broswers to support a real language client-side,
and not just "cripple script"? Will we ever have the luxury of programming
using Framework classes client-side some day?

I think your best bet for a "real" programming language that runs on the
client side is Java (note that this is distinct from "JavaScript").

- Oliver

[darrel]

> Are there any plans for broswers to support a real language client-side,
and

not just "cripple script"? Will we ever have the luxury of programming using Framework classes client-side some day?

If you're using a real language and wanting to make applications, then why
bother with the browser in the first place?

-Darrel

[John MacIntyre]

"PJ6" <no****@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:u2**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

Are there any plans for broswers to support a real language client-side,
and not just "cripple script"? Will we ever have the luxury of programming
using Framework classes client-side some day?

I'd be happy with cripple script and a consistent API.

While IE may have almost the entire markets share, it would still be nice to
have your client script run on every browser.

[PJ6]

"darrel" <no*****@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:O9**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

If you're using a real language and wanting to make applications, then why
bother with the browser in the first place?

-Darrel

You're preaching to the choir, man. But everyone's all web this, web that. I
avoided it as long as I could.

Paul

[PJ6]

I just don't see a necessary correlation between the power of a language and
it's ability to do damage - proper design should separate object
creation/execution and whatever else the language allows at runtime from
direct system access. Java has this whole "virtual machine" thing (which I
admit I know very little about), it would seem to me not an overly difficult
(if labor-intensive) concept to apply security restrictions to the Framework
as a whole, to allow WinForms-style functionality over the web. The
Framework has been compiled for Linux, I think it would be an excellent
candidate for a new web UI standard. Screw this clunky HTML/Java crap. To me
it all looks like just a hack to get around a system that was never intended
to do what it does now.

If you're next response is "you don't know what you're talking about", then
fine; I admit I'm a newbie. This is just how I see the state of web
application development at the moment. I come from years of real application
development, its ugliness frustrates and surprises me.

Paul

<sr**********@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:11*********************@g49g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...

The reason, for client side langauges having restricted features, is
security concerns. Seeing the frequency viruses/hacks are being
announced, I belive it will only become even more restricted in the
future :)

[John MacIntyre]

"PJ6" <no****@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:em**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
[snip]

Framework has been compiled for Linux, I think it would be an excellent
candidate for a new web UI standard. Screw this clunky HTML/Java crap. To
me it all looks like just a hack to get around a system that was never
intended to do what it does now.

[snip]

Theres a paradigm shift moving from Windows apps to web-apps. You lose the
ability to quickly respond to user actions. IMHO; trying to compensate for
that with applets or smartclient is not the way to go. Don't get me wrong,
applets & smartclients have thier place, but I don't think compensating for
the limitations of HTML qualifies.

Why do you want a client heavy UI functionality? Why don't you do all the
real application work on the server & deliver standard HTML to the client,
with as little client side script as possible?

There are good ways to handle this; ASP.NET and Java are both great. If you
prefer Java, look into MVC architecture and STRUTS.
http://struts.apache.org/

If you REALLY WANT an app with immediate response functionality similar to a
windows application and pages refresh; it is possible .. I've done it.
Keep in mind that the more browsers & browser versions you try to support,
the more problems you will have. But if you insist on doing it that way,
build your application in client side script and have a 0x0 iframe which
submits and recieves data.

That's my 2 cents FWIW, I hope it helps.

--
Regards,
John MacIntyre
http://www.johnmacintyre.ca
Specializing in; Database, Web-Applications, and Windows Software

[John MacIntyre]

woops .. typo

.....

If you REALLY WANT an app with immediate response functionality similar to
a windows application and pages refresh; it is possible .. I've done it.

...

that line should be "and NO page refresh"

[Oliver Wong]

"PJ6" <no****@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:em**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

I just don't see a necessary correlation between the power of a language
and it's ability to do damage
The more powerful the language, the more complex it is. And the more
complex it is, the harder it is to prove theorems about it. And the harder
it is to prove theorems about it, the harder it is to prove that it cannot
deal damage (this is a gross oversimplification of Godel's Incompleteness
Theorem).
proper design should separate object creation/execution and whatever else
the language allows at runtime from direct system access.
The question isn't whether or not the program will be harmful if it is
properly designed; The question is rather, how can we guarantee that the
program will not be able to damage the client's computer, even if the author
of the program was malicious and trying to circumvent every security measure
we put in place?

If you create a language which cannot read or write files, then you
don't have to worry about a malicious program deleting all the files on the
client's computer, or worry about it reading sensitive data. But then you
have a "crippled language".
Java has this whole "virtual machine" thing (which I admit I know very
little about), it would seem to me not an overly difficult (if
labor-intensive) concept to apply security restrictions to the Framework
as a whole, to allow WinForms-style functionality over the web.

In theory, it isn't too difficult. In practice though, these frameworks
contain a LOT of code, and any software which contains a lot of code
inevitably has bugs in it. And if the bug happens to be in a
security-enforcing module, then you're in big trouble.

- Oliver

[sreejith.ram]

WinForms-style functionality will not be possible in web because of the
nature of it. There is only limited job (mostly UI and some validation
functions) we are getting done at client side, and rest of the code is
in the Server.

When you need the powerful features of a framework at the client side,
that also need a powerful compiler/interpreter at the client computer
that can process the language. Also need a good processor and memory
for it. Probably some garbge collection object pooling etc also...

The main purpose of web is to deliver to mass audience. Client machines
could be PDAs or 20" flat panel. Client machine speed could be 100 MHZ
or 4 GHZ. Client machine memory could be < 100 MB.

So for every client to understand, it is necessary to use simple
scripting in HTML, JAVASCRIPT as a standard

by the way.. JavaScript supports User Objects, Error Handling,
Extending intrinsic objects with new functions, Processing XML and many
other features.

[sreejith.ram]

WinForms-style functionality will not be possible in web because of the

nature of it. There is only limited job (mostly UI and some validation
functions) we are getting done at client side, and rest of the code is
in the Server.
When you need the powerful features of a framework at the client side,
that also need a powerful compiler/interpreter at the client computer
that can process the language. Also need a good processor and memory
for it. Probably some garbge collection object pooling etc also...
The main purpose of web is to deliver to mass audience. Client machines

could be PDAs or 20" flat panel. Client machine speed could be 100 MHZ
or 4 GHZ. Client machine memory could be < 100 MB.
So for every client to understand, it is necessary to use simple
scripting in HTML, JAVASCRIPT as a standard
by the way.. JavaScript supports User Objects, Error Handling,
Extending intrinsic objects with new functions, Processing XML and many

other features.

[sreejith.ram]

WinForms-style functionality will not be possible in web because of the

nature of it. There is only limited job (mostly UI and some validation
functions) we are getting done at client side, and rest of the code is
in the Server.
When you need the powerful features of a framework at the client side,
that also need a powerful compiler/interpreter at the client computer
that can process the language. Also need a good processor and memory
for it. Probably some garbge collection object pooling etc also...
The main purpose of web is to deliver to mass audience. Client machines

could be PDAs or 20" flat panel. Client machine speed could be 100 MHZ
or 4 GHZ. Client machine memory could be < 100 MB.
So for every client to understand, it is necessary to use simple
scripting in HTML, JAVASCRIPT as a standard
by the way.. JavaScript supports User Objects, Error Handling,
Extending intrinsic objects with new functions, Processing XML and many

other features.