OT? Recruiter Hell

[strvariant]

This may be OT but I have a situation that requires the advice/experience
of the resident experts here.

My small business has contracted with the recruiter Modis to do devlopment
work for a client. After a month and a half into the contract I have only
received payment for two of the 6 weeks. I have spent more time lately
trying to get paid for billed time than I have actually performing the free
work that they are receiving. I am getting ready to stop work because of
this and was wondering if there was any advice for dealing with Modis about
this? Other than the obvious 'Don't work with them again' of course.

Thanks

strvariant

[Gary Floam]

Stop working and if necessary sue them. Don't bother with such people.
"strvariant" <no.email.com> wrote in message
news:Xn***********************@216.196.97.136...

This may be OT but I have a situation that requires the advice/experience
of the resident experts here.

My small business has contracted with the recruiter Modis to do devlopment
work for a client. After a month and a half into the contract I have only
received payment for two of the 6 weeks. I have spent more time lately
trying to get paid for billed time than I have actually performing the free
work that they are receiving. I am getting ready to stop work because of
this and was wondering if there was any advice for dealing with Modis about
this? Other than the obvious 'Don't work with them again' of course.

Thanks

strvariant

[Steve Jorgensen]

I partly agree with Gary, but not quite. Stop working, and employ a
collection service to try to get your payment for services rendered.

Basically, once a client is more than a reasonable time past due, all work
should halt intil payment is recieved. Once payment is received, you can
decide whether to resume work. The "client" can't very well get angry about
not getting free services.

On Wed, 02 Nov 2005 19:32:53 -0600, strvariant <no.email.com> wrote:

This may be OT but I have a situation that requires the advice/experience
of the resident experts here.

My small business has contracted with the recruiter Modis to do devlopment
work for a client. After a month and a half into the contract I have only
received payment for two of the 6 weeks. I have spent more time lately
trying to get paid for billed time than I have actually performing the free
work that they are receiving. I am getting ready to stop work because of
this and was wondering if there was any advice for dealing with Modis about
this? Other than the obvious 'Don't work with them again' of course.

Thanks

strvariant

[Jozef]

That's normal in the recruiter realm in Western Canada, every four weeks,
although I've never worked for Modis. Many recruiters (at least used to)
don't pay you until the client pays them, which in some cases can be sixty
days, ninety at the worst.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, especially if they will pay you
regularly from now on (keeping four weeks in the hole). The good thing
about recruiters is they can keep you working steady, so now that you're
passed the initial lag time, you should be o.k.

Hope this helps.
"strvariant" <no.email.com> wrote in message
news:Xn***********************@216.196.97.136...

This may be OT but I have a situation that requires the advice/experience
of the resident experts here.

My small business has contracted with the recruiter Modis to do devlopment
work for a client. After a month and a half into the contract I have only
received payment for two of the 6 weeks. I have spent more time lately
trying to get paid for billed time than I have actually performing the
free
work that they are receiving. I am getting ready to stop work because of
this and was wondering if there was any advice for dealing with Modis
about
this? Other than the obvious 'Don't work with them again' of course.

Thanks

strvariant

[Nick Coe \(UK\)]

You can expect to work at least a month in hand. That is,
you invoice an agency at the end of a month and then they
pay in accordance with their terms and conditions which
might take another month.

If they breach their terms and conditions (which you
probably will have signed up to) then you can start to apply
pressure.

Good luck

--
Nick Coe (UK)
Available - Will work for money :-)
http://www.alphacos.co.uk/ AccHelp + pAnimal
http://www.pjandcoe.co.uk/ Online Store

In news:Xn***********************@216.196.97.136,
strvariant typed:

This may be OT but I have a situation that requires the
advice/experience of the resident experts here.

My small business has contracted with the recruiter Modis
to
do devlopment work for a client. After a month and a half
into
the contract I have only received payment for two of the 6
weeks. I have spent more time lately trying to get paid
for
billed time than I have actually performing the free work
that
they are receiving. I am getting ready to stop work
because of
this and was wondering if there was any advice for dealing
with Modis about this? Other than the obvious 'Don't work
with
them again' of course.

Thanks

strvariant

[Steve Jorgensen]

On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 08:32:18 -0000, "Nick Coe \(UK\)"
<cl*****************@MASPON.yahooDOTcom> wrote:

You can expect to work at least a month in hand. That is,
you invoice an agency at the end of a month and then they
pay in accordance with their terms and conditions which
might take another month.

If they breach their terms and conditions (which you
probably will have signed up to) then you can start to apply
pressure.

Good luck

For my independent consulting, my terms are Net 10 unless the client asks for
Net 15, ain which case, I say OK. If they say Net 30, I say thanks, I hope
you find someone to do the work for you.

Regarding Consulting services, I've never had to wait more than 2 weeks from
the date I submit the timesheet to get my payment, and I wouldn't take kindly
to it if I did.

[Nick Coe \(UK\)]

In news:7l********************************@4ax.com,
Steve Jorgensen typed:

On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 08:32:18 -0000, "Nick Coe \(UK\)"
<cl*****************@MASPON.yahooDOTcom> wrote:

For my independent consulting, my terms are Net 10 unless
the
client asks for Net 15, ain which case, I say OK. If they
say
Net 30, I say thanks, I hope you find someone to do the
work
for you.

Regarding Consulting services, I've never had to wait more
than 2 weeks from the date I submit the timesheet to get
my
payment, and I wouldn't take kindly to it if I did.

Yup. I was generalising about my experience with UK
Agencies and large companies.

I've also had situations where I get paid straight after
invoicing, it depends a lot on the individuals within the
organisation concerned.

There seems to be a trend towards fixed price work at the
lowest possible price here at the moment. It's a bit
discouraging since it can be difficult to balance a
reasonable income against what the customer is prepared to
pay and the need for _some_ income against costs. My
baseline approach to fixed price has always been 'It'll cost
you more than per diem in the long run..' <shrug> Maybe
I've just been doing this too long and am getting jaded...
<g>

And if I hear one more IT person say 'Oh Access, it's flaky
blah blah blah. Not a proper development tool blah blah...'
I swear I'll start a fatwa <g>

--
Nick Coe (UK)
Available - Will work for money :-)
http://www.alphacos.co.uk/ AccHelp + pAnimal
http://www.pjandcoe.co.uk/ Online Store

[strvariant]

The problem seems to be how the client is paying them. I am contracted to
be paid on a weekly basis but the client pays them on a Net 30 basis. They
aren't doing a good job of keeping either of us happy.

I should get a better pimp next time.

Thanks

strvariant

[David W. Fenton]

Steve Jorgensen <no****@nospam.nospam> wrote in
news:ia********************************@4ax.com:

I partly agree with Gary, but not quite. Stop working, and employ a collection service to try to get your payment for services
rendered.

Basically, once a client is more than a reasonable time past due,
all work should halt intil payment is recieved. Once payment is
received, you can decide whether to resume work. The "client"
can't very well get angry about not getting free services.

Seems to me that what happens should all be determined by the
contract with the agency.

That contract should specify payment terms and if they are
violating
those, one has justification for making a stink.

But if they are *not* violating the temrs of the contract, you
haven't a leg to stand on.

It seems to me that 6 weeks into a project you should only expect
to
have been paid for 2 weeks of the work, since that would be 30 days
temrs, which is pretty standard.

Indeed, I'd be *thrilled* if all my clients made 30 days terms.
Most
of my subctracted work is at 60 days now, and I feel lucky to get
that, as I've had plenty of cases where it went to twice that.

If, on the other hand, you're aover 60 days, I'd go to the agency
and tell give them a week to pay your for all of the 60 days past
due work, or explain that you'll have to stop work for the client.
Ask them if they want you to call the client and explain this or if
they'll take care of telling the client about it.

If they don't meet the deadline, call the client and explain the
situation. Try to find out if the client has already paid, and if
so, then the client really needs to get on their case about it.

But really, 6 weeks into a project, there really is no reason to be
complaining at all about having been paid for only 2 weeks unless
it's a violation of an explicit contractual agreement to pay sooner
than 30 days.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton
dfenton at bway dot net http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

[David W. Fenton]

Steve Jorgensen <no****@nospam.nospam> wrote in
news:7l********************************@4ax.com:

For my independent consulting, my terms are Net 10 unless the
client asks for Net 15, ain which case, I say OK. If they say Net 30, I say thanks, I hope you find someone to do the work for you.

Regarding Consulting services, I've never had to wait more than 2
weeks from the date I submit the timesheet to get my payment, and
I wouldn't take kindly to it if I did.

You are bloody lucky, Steve. I have never at any point in my
consulting (I started in 1994) had that kind of ability to enforce
my terms with are DUE UPON RECEIPT. Some of my clients pay me
onsite
when I finish the work and I invoice them when I get home -- those
clients I *really* like.

But my best direct corporate clients never do better than about NET
20, because they do check runs every two weeks, and if my invoice
misses the current check run, I have to wait more than 2 weeks for
the payment.

My sub-contracted work is running 60 days *when *'m lucky*. The
problem is that the clients don't pay less than 30 days, so that
adds at least 2 weeks to the processing time, so 45 days is the
best
I can expect. But mostly it takes much longer than that.

This was not always the case. It has only become this way over the
last 2 or 3 years, when the real slowdown hit my business.

In my early years of consulting, the contracting companies I worked
for were bigger and just paid me whenever I asked for a check,
except for very large projects (over $5K or so), where they didn't
pay me until the client had paid.

But now I'm sub-contracting for only one small copmany, two
brothers
who are really great guys and are barely keeping afloat (in no
small
part thanks to their profits off *my* work, which run about $35 for
ever hour I work), and they can't pay me for anyuthing but small
projects before they've received payment from their clients. And
they are at the mercy of those clients, unfortunately, some of
which
(like a certain school district in New Jersey) pay at 90 days if
you're lucky.

I wish I could get rid of all the sub-contracted work, becuase I'd
be able to impose payment discipline, since no pay = no new work.
But these days I feel lucky to get any work at all.

I'm glad you've got the luxury of enforcing terms so favorable to
yourself. I've *never* averaged NET 10, ever. At one point, I was
averagin in the low 20s, but that was years and years ago, and was
that low only because a significant number of my clients were
paying
me onsite, before I'd even generated the invoice.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton
dfenton at bway dot net http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

[David W. Fenton]

"Nick Coe \(UK\)" <cl*****************@MASPON.yahooDOTcom> wrote in
news:43***********************@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net:

There seems to be a trend towards fixed price work at the
lowest possible price here at the moment. It's a bit
discouraging since it can be difficult to balance a
reasonable income against what the customer is prepared to
pay and the need for _some_ income against costs. . . .
Don't you ask for deposits up front in order to begin work? I do
that for all projects over about 8 hours. If my estimate of hours is
5-10 hours, I ask for 1/2 of 7,5 hours up front. That usually works
out to about 1/3 of the total. ANd then I ask for 1/2 the remaining
balance upon delivery, which leaves about 1/3 for them to withhold
until approval.
. . . My
baseline approach to fixed price has always been 'It'll cost
you more than per diem in the long run..'

I avoid fixed price whenever I can. If the client insists on it, I
insist on built-in renegotiation of the price at certain planned
points in the project. If they won't agree to that, I won't accept
the contract, or I'll triple the price and give them that as their
non-negotiable price. This usually gets them to agree to the
renegotation point, and in the end, they realize that I was right
all along.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton
dfenton at bway dot net http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

[David W. Fenton]

strvariant <no.email.com> wrote in
news:Xn************************@216.196.97.136:

The problem seems to be how the client is paying them. I am
contracted to be paid on a weekly basis but the client pays them
on a Net 30 basis. They aren't doing a good job of keeping either
of us happy.

I should get a better pimp next time.

If you have a contract promising weekly payments, simply tell them
that if they don't live up to the payment terms, you will stop work
for the client until they catch up.

But be nice about it. Give them two weeks to catch up. Based on what
you've said, you're now 3 weeks behind (6 weeks into project, paid
for two, with 1-week terms, means they owe you for 3 weeks). Ask for
half that now, and give them two weeks to catch up.

Or, just get used to it. I would, since I'd consider 30-day terms a
blessing. You do run a risk if you deliver an ultimatum.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton
dfenton at bway dot net http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

[Steve Jorgensen]

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 14:49:41 -0600, "David W. Fenton"
<dX********@bway.net.invalid> wrote:

Steve Jorgensen <no****@nospam.nospam> wrote in
news:7l********************************@4ax.com :

For my independent consulting, my terms are Net 10 unless the
client asks for Net 15, ain which case, I say OK. If they sayNet

30, I say thanks, I hope you find someone to do the work for you.

Regarding Consulting services, I've never had to wait more than 2
weeks from the date I submit the timesheet to get my payment, and
I wouldn't take kindly to it if I did.

You are bloody lucky, Steve. I have never at any point in my
consulting (I started in 1994) had that kind of ability to enforce
my terms with are DUE UPON RECEIPT. Some of my clients pay me
onsite
when I finish the work and I invoice them when I get home -- those
clients I *really* like.

OK, perhaps I am lucky - and there was a time not long ago when my schedule
was so dry I would have been very flexible on terms. I am defintely not -dry-
now. Demand for Access work is coming back very strong!
But my best direct corporate clients never do better than about NET
20, because they do check runs every two weeks, and if my invoice
misses the current check run, I have to wait more than 2 weeks for
the payment.
Ah - I have a client in this category. I just coordinate my invoice
submission cycle with the AP cycle, and everyone is happy.
My sub-contracted work is running 60 days *when *'m lucky*. The
problem is that the clients don't pay less than 30 days, so that
adds at least 2 weeks to the processing time, so 45 days is the
best
I can expect. But mostly it takes much longer than that.

This was not always the case. It has only become this way over the
last 2 or 3 years, when the real slowdown hit my business.
Perhaps, you will soon see the same pick-up I'm seeing. Also, I occasionally
get requests for telecommuting projects that I could forward your way if
you're taking those?
In my early years of consulting, the contracting companies I worked
for were bigger and just paid me whenever I asked for a check,
except for very large projects (over $5K or so), where they didn't
pay me until the client had paid.

But now I'm sub-contracting for only one small copmany, two
brothers
who are really great guys and are barely keeping afloat (in no
small
part thanks to their profits off *my* work, which run about $35 for
ever hour I work), and they can't pay me for anyuthing but small
projects before they've received payment from their clients. And
they are at the mercy of those clients, unfortunately, some of
which
(like a certain school district in New Jersey) pay at 90 days if
you're lucky.

We gotta get you some better clients, David. It's not as if you're some
amature who's not worth his salt.

[Nick Coe \(UK\)]

In news:Xn**********************************@216.196. 97.142,
David W. Fenton typed:

"Nick Coe \(UK\)" <cl*****************@MASPON.yahooDOTcom>
wrote in
news:43***********************@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net:

Don't you ask for deposits up front in order to begin
work?

Nope. Would be desirable, some sort of stage payment with
milestones perhaps, as you say later about renegotiation.

As you say in another post Access work is very thin on the
ground at the moment. Were I 10 years younger I might
consider going back on the road doing contracting but the
prospect of living in a manky bed and breakfast during the
week and driving home for the weekends is now less than
appealing.

So I'm diversifying <g>, hence the online store, expanding
PC repair/upgrade/networking business and so on. Time will
tell if I'm going in the right direction <shrug>, got to try
though...

--
Nick Coe (UK)
Available - Will work for money :-)
http://www.alphacos.co.uk/ AccHelp + pAnimal
http://www.pjandcoe.co.uk/ Online Store

[Keith W]

"Nick Coe (UK)" <cl*****************@MASPON.yahooDOTcom> wrote in message
news:436b2e34$0$82673>

the prospect of living in a manky bed and breakfast during the week and
driving home for the weekends is now less than appealing.

<Shudder>
Been there!

Keith.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per strvariant:

I have only
received payment for two of the 6 weeks. I have spent more time lately
trying to get paid for billed time than I have actually performing the free
work that they are receiving. I am getting ready to stop work because of
this and was wondering if there was any advice for dealing with Modis about
this? Other than the obvious 'Don't work with them again' of course.

Thankfully, I've never had a problem, but your post has me thinking about
prophylaxis.

It seems like the heart of the issue is how to get stuck with the fewest unpaid
hours when the middleman fails to pay, yet alienate as few people as possible in
the process.

Could somebody comment on this strawman?
--------------------------------------------
Tell the middleman up-front that I expect payment within N days of
each invoice - in writing, on the contract that I sign.

When payment hasn't arrived at day N+1, tell the middleman that I expect payment
immediately - as in a wire transfer to my bank account before noon - and will
stop work until it arrives.

On day N+2, after no payment has arrived - regardless of any promises by the
middleman, stop showing up at the end user's site after explaining to the person
in charge there that there seem to be (hopefully temporary...) problems with the
middleman.

When the payment hasn't arrived by day N+5, tell the end users that the
middleman has stopped paying me and I am working on another project (one that
I'm getting paid for...) until payment is received; and also bill the middleman
for all time worked up to that moment - payable immediately.

Finally, since all bets would seem to be off in view of the middleman not
paying, approach the end user to the effect that maybe they would like to
contract directly with me to finish the project.
--------------------------------------------

Personally, I can see some theoretical problems with the above right away...

Maybe somebody who has more experience can comment.

--
PeteCresswell

[Larry Linson]

"Nick Coe (UK)" wrote

As you say in another post Access work is very
thin on the ground at the moment.

I observe that there is still demand for Access. In the the days of high
demand for Access developers, often all the client or employer was seeking
was skill in Access. Now they tend to be, more often, looking for Access
along with some other skills.

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP

[Steve Jorgensen]

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 02:34:16 GMT, "Larry Linson" <bo*****@localhost.not>
wrote:

"Nick Coe (UK)" wrote

As you say in another post Access work is very
thin on the ground at the moment.

I observe that there is still demand for Access. In the the days of high
demand for Access developers, often all the client or employer was seeking
was skill in Access. Now they tend to be, more often, looking for Access
along with some other skills.

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP

True - I don't advertise myself as an Access developer because that's not what
I am. I'm a custom, small business software application developer
specializing in relational databases, MS Access, VBA, and VB.

[David W. Fenton]

Steve Jorgensen <no****@nospam.nospam> wrote in
news:hb********************************@4ax.com:

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 02:34:16 GMT, "Larry Linson"
<bo*****@localhost.not> wrote:

"Nick Coe (UK)" wrote

> As you say in another post Access work is very
> thin on the ground at the moment.

I observe that there is still demand for Access. In the the days
of high demand for Access developers, often all the client or
employer was seeking was skill in Access. Now they tend to be,
more often, looking for Access along with some other skills.

True - I don't advertise myself as an Access developer because
that's not what I am. I'm a custom, small business software
application developer specializing in relational databases, MS
Access, VBA, and VB.

Well, I'm a full-service small business PC consultant, doing
networking, training administration, and so forth, and specializing
in Access application development.

About half my work these days is non-Access, whereas it used to be
about 1/4. The non-Access work tends not to come in big chunks, like
the Access work does, and also tends to come non-predictably.

--
David W. Fenton http://www.bway.net/~dfenton
dfenton at bway dot net http://www.bway.net/~dfassoc

[jimfortune]

Larry Linson wrote:

"Nick Coe (UK)" wrote

> As you say in another post Access work is very
> thin on the ground at the moment.

I observe that there is still demand for Access. In the the days of high
demand for Access developers, often all the client or employer was seeking
was skill in Access. Now they tend to be, more often, looking for Access
along with some other skills.

Larry Linson
Microsoft Access MVP

That's because they haven't figured out how to email a network,
including hardware, to Asia :-). I notice that where I live, lately
there are more .NET jobs than Access jobs available. Still, it seems
wise to pick up other skills so I might take a .NET contract job on the
side several months from now just to "sharpen" my C.

James A. Fortune

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