expert system of diabetes

[sana sodhal]

hi
i need ur help in making my project in visual basic6.0 and that is expert system of diabetes mellatus disease i dnt know what to do so please help me in making whole project and i have to complete this project till 1 september

i'll wait for reply

thanks

[debasisdas]

have you started working on that yet or still thinking only of that ?

[jeffstl]

Uh huh...

So what is the project objective? Do you have a database set up already? Does it require a database?

What have you done so far?

Are there any specific problems you could maybe start with asking for help on?

[sana sodhal]

have you started working on that yet or still thinking only of that ?

no i'ven't started m very much confused i dnt know what to do i've gathered information about diabetes now the problem is how to make it?

[sana sodhal]

Uh huh...

So what is the project objective? Do you have a database set up already? Does it require a database?

What have you done so far?

Are there any specific problems you could maybe start with asking for help on?

my project objective is to make an expert system which diagnose a patient when he/she tell his symptoms and sytem will suggest treatment.
the system will have knowledge of disease and,what tests are required and database will be used for it but the system should take decision on the bases of any decion model
ok
thanx

[debasisdas]

DOES THAT INVOLVE ANY DATABASE ?

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE SO FAR ?

Here we only assist to those who show effort ,we never provide complete code for anything to anyone as you have posted here.

[sana sodhal]

DOES THAT INVOLVE ANY DATABASE ?

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE SO FAR ?

Here we only assist to those who show effort ,we never provide complete code for anything to anyone as you have posted here.

yes it involves database?i've started with login form and patients iformation form.

[debasisdas]

are you struck anywhere ?

[alkeshnayak]

u;ll find some code here for ur requirenemt
http://www.planet-source-code.com/vb/default.asp?lngCId=70823&lngWId=1

but as debasisdas said... u must have to do something your self..

[AIProgrammer]

Hi,
An expert system is another name for a rule based system. Here, you need following, regardless of which expert system you make:
1. Data Entry / Input (Information level)
2. Create a knowledge base (which you may call 'database' is you so wish) [knowledge level]
2. A set of rules. [Intelligence level]

I myself developed one expert system package for 'Radiation Fog Prediction : Fuzzy Logic Approach' ,using VB 6.0 , VBA and MS Excel, and what I would suggest is:

1. Take user inputs within VB 6.0 itself.
2. Keep you rules in an excel sheet (Acess them using Visual Basic for Applications (VBA) commands.
3. Match the antecedant (hope you know what an 'antecedant' is, if you are going to develop an Expert system package, with your data from you Knowledge Base. FIRE those rules which match.
(One point : A rule is simply to be implemented as an if-then OR if-then-else. There is no big- hype about it.)
4. After you fire your rules, make an aggregate of all the conclusion parts (R.H.S. of the rule.)
5. GIve an expert answer using it, which might answer to an optimization, decision, prediction or some other type of problem.

These are general guidelines for an expert system. If this doesn't clarify, then write DETAILS about what kind of expert system you would develop, FUZZY or CRISP, approximate no. of RULES (which determines whether you 'hard-code' them in VB, or use a file/DB to store them, also where you store other knowledge-data is also important , inside or out of VB , which again depends upon the amount of data being processed.

Having witten one expert system package, and about to write the next one, I can say that expert system programming is ENTIRELY AD-HOC, and the person writing it, i.e. you, have to make choices about how to go about it, depending upon the SCALE OF THE PROJECT.

Think that should give you some idea.

Bye.

[sana sodhal]

Hi,
An expert system is another name for a rule based system. Here, you need following, regardless of which expert system you make:
1. Data Entry / Input (Information level)
2. Create a knowledge base (which you may call 'database' is you so wish) [knowledge level]
2. A set of rules. [Intelligence level]

I myself developed one expert system package for 'Radiation Fog Prediction : Fuzzy Logic Approach' ,using VB 6.0 , VBA and MS Excel, and what I would suggest is:

1. Take user inputs within VB 6.0 itself.
2. Keep you rules in an excel sheet (Acess them using Visual Basic for Applications (VBA) commands.
3. Match the antecedant (hope you know what an 'antecedant' is, if you are going to develop an Expert system package, with your data from you Knowledge Base. FIRE those rules which match.
(One point : A rule is simply to be implemented as an if-then OR if-then-else. There is no big- hype about it.)
4. After you fire your rules, make an aggregate of all the conclusion parts (R.H.S. of the rule.)
5. GIve an expert answer using it, which might answer to an optimization, decision, prediction or some other type of problem.

These are general guidelines for an expert system. If this doesn't clarify, then write DETAILS about what kind of expert system you would develop, FUZZY or CRISP, approximate no. of RULES (which determines whether you 'hard-code' them in VB, or use a file/DB to store them, also where you store other knowledge-data is also important , inside or out of VB , which again depends upon the amount of data being processed.

Having witten one expert system package, and about to write the next one, I can say that expert system programming is ENTIRELY AD-HOC, and the person writing it, i.e. you, have to make choices about how to go about it, depending upon the SCALE OF THE PROJECT.

Think that should give you some idea.

Bye.

thanx

i've started to design the knowledge base bus but m confuse that how will i proceed?actually my teachers has said to use decision theory models now what are they and how i'll use them after completing the knowledge base?should i mail you whatever i've done?

[AIProgrammer]

thanx

i've started to design the knowledge base bus but m confuse that how will i proceed?actually my teachers has said to use decision theory models now what are they and how i'll use them after completing the knowledge base?should i mail you whatever i've done?

Hi,

See, decision theory models are nothing but what their name implies, and that's the case with most 'things' (theories. models, protocols etc.). They are 'models' which help you to make decisions. Now they are of two kinds, one 'prescriptive' (yielding theoritically the 'optimal' [call it 'best' if you like] decisions) about 'things' i.e. either a value of a variable, a 'cost' of a function, and in general, the 'extent' (or degree) of anything , and the other 'descriptive', which gives 'good' i.e. 'sub-optimal' value or 'extent' of these things.

By the way, a 'model' simply means an abstraction or a stripped down, simplified version of the real thing.(Here we do not consider real world, but a model of it).

Now, you might be wondering why not make the best decision always??? The reason is simply that all decisions are made in 'real' world under 'real' situations, which are more often than not, 'non-ideal' [non-best]. There are many ways to deal with these 'real' situations to make the decision as 'optimal' [good] as possible. The most common one is Statistical/Probabilistic one, which makes use of Bayes' theorem of Probability [ the 'simple' probability we are taught]. Others make use Dempster-Shafer theory[ where you i.e. the 'expert' gets a chance to assign 'subjective' probabilities where they don't exist, or can't be found out.

The one more mature for this situation [according to my judgement], would be to employ Fuzzy-decision model. Though, as I told earlier, it is YOUR EXPERT SYSTEM, TAKE THE FREEDOM OF DESIGNING IT AS YOU LIKE. DON'T THINK THAT YOU HAVE TO, THINK YOU CAN, AND MAKE INDEPENDENT DECISIONS. THAT IS WHAT AN 'EXPERT' IS SUPPOSED TO DO.
But as have not seen anything of the system as of yet, so I say that there is an equal chance of the other models being useful as well.

Yes, you MAY mail me. Let's see if I could take some time out to go through all the stuff.

By the way, who is your teacher? He/She is supposed to guide you too if he/she tells you that 'do this...' i..e. tell also that 'do this in that way...'. If I were in your place I would have first 'eaten-up' the mind of my teachers thouroughly. Ab advice is: try eating your teachers' mind thoroughly. THE NEXT TIME THEY WILL GIVE YOU AN EASY-OFF PROJECT. THAT'S TRIED AND TESTED. My Engineering Course taught me that well.......

Bye.

[AIProgrammer]

thanx

i've started to design the knowledge base bus but m confuse that how will i proceed?actually my teachers has said to use decision theory models now what are they and how i'll use them after completing the knowledge base?should i mail you whatever i've done?

Hi,

One more thing I would like to mention. As I told, you may keep the rules in an excel sheet. Then import them as Strings. Then do an if -then comparision to determine which rule to fire. This (the Strings) would make your task easier. Also, you may keep the data as Integer etc. (suppose they are numbers), or may keep them as Strings if they are what are known as Linguistic Variables (for e.g. HIGH, LOW etc.). Try it. Feel free to contact further for any queries you have.

Bye.

[sana sodhal]

Hi,

One more thing I would like to mention. As I told, you may keep the rules in an excel sheet. Then import them as Strings. Then do an if -then comparision to determine which rule to fire. This (the Strings) would make your task easier. Also, you may keep the data as Integer etc. (suppose they are numbers), or may keep them as Strings if they are what are known as Linguistic Variables (for e.g. HIGH, LOW etc.). Try it. Feel free to contact further for any queries you have.

Bye.

Hi

thanx alot for your guiding me.M very happy form your response.Well my teacher don't tell any thing he says that he have no idea how to apply models so I should take help from any1 else you know I have wasted my ! month in for this no 1 cleared m any thing I want my project perfect but I don't have such knowledge that what and where any thing should be implemented seriously m very tense and confused about it if a teacher don't know than why he ask m to do so:(
you know he said that make this expert system in prolog language and i'vent seen it I said will teach m he said I don't know any thing about it even no one in our department knows it:(
than I decided to make it in VB.You didn't tell where should I mail my work?can you tell m ur email address?

bye

[r035198x]

Site guidelines don't allow exchange of email addresses in the public forums. Please read them and obey them.

If you google prolog you'll get lots of information on it and even some free compilers. I suggest you forget about the interface for now and concetrate on your rules and knowledgebase. Reply #10 in this thread has some good starting points (except that I would use a database rather than excel sheet to store my data).

[AIProgrammer]

Site guidelines don't allow exchange of email addresses in the public forums. Please read them and obey them.

If you google prolog you'll get lots of information on it and even some free compilers. I suggest you forget about the interface for now and concetrate on your rules and knowledgebase. Reply #10 in this thread has some good starting points (except that I would use a database rather than excel sheet to store my data).

Hello r035198x,

What is your reason behind the choice (that where rules should be kept). Is it because you like databases more, (may be some Oracle 'ish kind of look and feel, visual and programmatic). Afterall, I don't understand why databases ( I mean Oracle or MySQL etc. kind of, i.e. GENERAL PURPOSE RELATION DB) should be used, and the reason behind your this choice.

From my point of view, if all one wants is to store the rules conviniently, change them (IF AT ALL, i.e. IF THIS EXPERT IS REALLY PUT TO PROFESSIONAL OR LONG TERM USE, AND RULES ARE '''REALLY''' MODIFIED), and access them, (that is all an expert system in general requires, if one doesn't try to be complicated just for the sake of it), then why databases would be required.

When I write expert systems, whether in full, or part of it, I try to keep it simple, and put rules even in excel sheet if they grow too large. Otherwise they may simply be HARDCODED within the language itself.

Don't take me wrong, I don't mean to challenge your opinion, but would you like to share your opinion with me regarding why you would prefer databases for this purpose. If possible, then share also why and under what circumstances you chose DB, whether you chose it beacuse of EXTERNAL FACTORS (like lack of time, or just that you were told to etc.) or whether it was your own personal prefference? Also mention the kind of application you were designing. Was it a DATA-CENTRIC APPLICATION, OR A CONTROL CENTRIC APPLICATION? What kind of model you simulated, and what was the BASIS for your model, whether DETERMINSTIC, PROBABILISTIC, FUZZY, and whether you aimed it for SYMBOLIC COMPUTERS OR FOR SUB-SYMBOLIC COMPUTERS (CONNECTIONISTIC MODEL).

Waitting for a reply soon,

Bye.

[r035198x]

See the wiki entry for databases.

[AIProgrammer]

See the wiki entry for databases.

Hello r035198x,
You probably either didn't read or misinterpreted what I wrote. I meant to ask you why you feel that databases should find place in an expert system like this. Definetely the wikipedia entry for databases doesn't answer this, as my point wasn't related to DB theory, but to expert systems (now this time dont' direct me to the wikipedia entry for Expert systems!!!!!!, beacuse if I ever need to go there, my browser has a SPEED DIAL to www.en.wikipedia.org). Even in case of expert systems with extremely gigantic number of rules (3.3 MILLION RULES), I found they didn't use databases. (By the way, the person who used to sit right beside me wrote it, and now he left and went somewhere else).

Please let me know why YOU prefer DB. It helps to know what other people think and do while in R&D.

Again, waiting for a reply soon.

Bye.

[r035198x]

How would you implement security for update of rules in the system?
i.e Suppose the system is used by many doctors and many higher level authority doctors (say research doctors) who need to have acces to change the rules based on their latest research findings?
Also how would you log the changes made to the rules i.e logging both what the old rule was and what the new rule is together with the user and time when the change was made?
Then there is the application use itself. People need to be registred to use the application. The number of times that a decision was made by the system and resulted in success also needs to be logged, perhaps to be used to automatically trigger some predefined rule changes as well.

Hope I'm now more specific ...

[AIProgrammer]

How would you implement security for update of rules in the system?
i.e Suppose the system is used by many doctors and many higher level authority doctors (say research doctors) who need to have acces to change the rules based on their latest research findings?
Also how would you log the changes made to the rules i.e logging both what the old rule was and what the new rule is together with the user and time when the change was made?
Then there is the application use itself. People need to be registred to use the application. The number of times that a decision was made by the system and resulted in success also needs to be logged, perhaps to be used to automatically trigger some predefined rule changes as well.

Hope I'm now more specific ...

Hello r035198x,

Thanks for your views on the subject. But I am still of the view that the large overhead DB's cost, during installation, design, and final execution on end-user's computer, doesn't deserve its place.

As for how would I implement security in my Excel Sheet. I would simply go to Tools>Protection>Protect Sheet and Tools>Protection>Protect Workbook. When a change is attemped, then password is prompted. One is shared the password with, can Unprotect the sheet and the workbook.

Now for the people registration part, we can do that very easily within VB 6.0 itself. Afterall, why are all these variables and InputBox for? ( I don't like in-builts, and always design my own, but still it can be used).

And the rule change is done offline, not as an automated feedback systems. (That is why I asked you which system you were aiming SYMBOLIC OR CONNECTIONIST). That is beacuse the current state of the art in mathematics and R&D in 'shells' is not that advanced that the s/w may tune rules itself. So this problem infact boils down to the problem of security and passwords only, so we have a soultion in excel too.

I didn't understand why a logging of 'who made WHICH change and WHEN' is of practical use to actual expert system design. Because, the DE-FACTO is : An expert designs the rules, produces the s/w to the end-user. Now if the end-user himself/herself is an expert, then he/she may costumize it as per wish. In general, scientists and R&D people publish their rules, working, research etc. in research papers ans journals, so I don't think that this is actually a problem here.

Anyways, thanks for you views, but I am still with the rule that 'simplicity rules best'. Expert systems I know have always not even asked for excel. If the expert system is for Multimedia DB Retrieval, then ofcourse a DB will be present for stroing the MM DB itself.

keep writing and sharing your views.

Bye.

[r035198x]

For the user registration part, VB alone won't do it. You need a database of registered users which you use to aunthenticate against.

Anyway, another view I have is that knowledge based systems are better off developed in prolog rather than VB. The language itself is tailor made for them. Rule development and firing is, IMO, much easier and faster to implement in prolog than in VB (apart from the support for more platforms on which to run the software).

[AIProgrammer]

For the user registration part, VB alone won't do it. You need a database of registered users which you use to aunthenticate against.

Anyway, another view I have is that knowledge based systems are better off developed in prolog rather than VB. The language itself is tailor made for them. Rule development and firing is, IMO, much easier and faster to implement in prolog than in VB (apart from the support for more platforms on which to run the software).

Hello r035198x,

But if you write rules in PROLOG, then you need to convert them to predicate fom. By the way PROLOG offers no specific advantage over VB, and researchers who actually develop or get expert systems developed by those working under them, generally develop them in languages of GENERAL PURPOSE USE, like C/C++/VB ( these three are according to what I have seen, the most used langauages now-a-days.)

PROLOG was developed simply beacuse languages NEED TO BE developed, whether they are used or not is a different matter altogether. There are many languages which claim to be SPECIALIZED, but in fact are just a CUT-SHORT VERSION of general programming languages. I am sure you have heard of the famous 'PENDULUM EFFECT' in IT industry, where they keep shifting from one pradigm to another, and from one lang/platform to another. But what is the net effect. Just think, WERE THE PROGRAMMERS OF THE 70'S BETTER, OR WILL THOSE WHO START TO PROGRAM AFTER 2010-2020 WILL BE BETTER. They have so many choices, but still they can't program well. There are literally tens-of-thousands, maybe even lakhs of C/C++ Programmers graduating every year. SO WHY IS THAT WE DON'T SEE THE INNOVATION OF THE 70'S. IF WISH I WERE A PROGRAMMER OF THE 70'S SOMETIMES. I would like to refer to one topic of interest. Read about Sheena. S. Iyenagar's ( An R&D person from Colouombia University) research on how the MUTITUDE OF CHOICES ADVERSELY AFFECT OUR CHOICE. THAT IS, MORE CHOICE MAY SOMETIMES EVEN MEAN A POORER JUDGEMENT THAT LESSER CHOICES.

And one more thing to be pointed out : the goal of AI is not to create PORTABLE S/W, BUT INTELLIGENT S/W. Further, every program has AI, knowledge and knowledge base, whether you see it that way or not. Even a login prompt is INTELLIGENT TO SOME EXTENT, AND EVEN A CHESS PROGRAM CAN BE 'FOOLER' THAN ONE CAN EVER IMAGINE.

As for authentication part, they can be issued one of the passwords [ we are speaking on it as if it is really going to be put to a DIABETICS CAMP someday; funny isn't it, but interesting too], and the set of passwords should be so issued that no-one can 'guess' or 'get it known' from somebody else. It should only be OBTAINABLE.

That could be a soultion, although the level of intelligence or 'CAPABILITY' of any sort doesn't depend upon the TOOLS, but on the underlying mathematical framework.

will get in touch soon,

Bye.

[sana sodhal]

Site guidelines don't allow exchange of email addresses in the public forums. Please read them and obey them.

If you google prolog you'll get lots of information on it and even some free compilers. I suggest you forget about the interface for now and concetrate on your rules and knowledgebase. Reply #10 in this thread has some good starting points (except that I would use a database rather than excel sheet to store my data).

Hellow

thanx for your reply I like the information which you both are sharing with eachother its very informative.
and please I would request to share some ideas about my project.

bye

[AIProgrammer]

Hellow

thanx for your reply I like the information which you both are sharing with eachother its very informative.
and please I would request to share some ideas about my project.

bye

Hi,

For that you need to let know the status quo [put simply, the current status and standing of your work], and theoritical details about your project. Then definitely you may have guidance for your project, without which we can just 'ASSUME" what is being developed. This job of 'ASSUMING' can itself be considered to be a separate project, applying several decision theoritic models for 'ASSUMING'!!!

One more thing, though all expert systems share many-a-things, but they do have differences, otherwise there would have been JUST ONE EXPERT SYSTEM IN THE WORLD. So, instead of writing just 'an expert system on diabetes mellitus' (not mellAtus, as you wrote), write what is the level of user data, domain knowledge [knowledge relating to diabetes itself], the rules which are available.

Put in a nutshell, it would be:

'The more the knowledge, the lesser the imprecision [ confusion if you so prefer], the lesser the choices, and the better the judgement, and hence, better the end-product.'

Feel free to ask any sort of queries.

Bye.

[AIProgrammer]

Hellow

thanx for your reply I like the information which you both are sharing with eachother its very informative.
and please I would request to share some ideas about my project.

bye

Hi sana sodhal,

As for your actual coding, you may use any language of this world [ofcourse a 'FORMAL LANGUAGE' [i.e. like C/C++/VB], and not English/French/German etc]. Use the language which you like the most, and would like to develop in. There's nothing any given language can't do. There are languages which don't even supposrt recursion!!!!!! Then how do people manage them??? There's always a way to do things if you really want to do. So, it's not that a particular language will give you an 'ADVANTAGE', it's just a mental satisfaction which programmers get, depending upon how they have programmed in the past.

Afterall, all present day computers are the same, and many of us try to make 'models' for better computers, or use them. But till the time that is done [which I beleive is at the least 10 years from now, if at all], you may choose any particular language and arrive at exactly the same results.

See your PM [Personal Message], which can be acessed from the top of your page, under 'Network'. You will find there further details.

Bye.

[sana sodhal]

Hi sana sodhal,

As for your actual coding, you may use any language of this world [ofcourse a 'FORMAL LANGUAGE' [i.e. like C/C++/VB], and not English/French/German etc]. Use the language which you like the most, and would like to develop in. There's nothing any given language can't do. There are languages which don't even supposrt recursion!!!!!! Then how do people manage them??? There's always a way to do things if you really want to do. So, it's not that a particular language will give you an 'ADVANTAGE', it's just a mental satisfaction which programmers get, depending upon how they have programmed in the past.

Afterall, all present day computers are the same, and many of us try to make 'models' for better computers, or use them. But till the time that is done [which I beleive is at the least 10 years from now, if at all], you may choose any particular language and arrive at exactly the same results.

See your PM [Personal Message], which can be acessed from the top of your page, under 'Network'. You will find there further details.

Bye.

Hi

can you help me in designing rule base as i've completed my knowledge base but now I m very much confused that how to design the rule base system what to do?
waiting for you rply

bye

[sana sodhal]

Uh huh...

So what is the project objective? Do you have a database set up already? Does it require a database?

What have you done so far?

Are there any specific problems you could maybe start with asking for help on?

Hi

I eed your help to design the rule base i've comleted knowledge base but now what to do m not finding any for it
so guide me

bye

[blueyuer]

i am doing a project that almost similar with your, are you done u project??? can lead me to do that??? cause i confused about how to do the rule based.....

wait for u reply....

[Frinavale]

The experts on this forum are more than happy to help you with any specific programming problems that you are facing; however you cannot expect these volunteers to develop your application or do your homework assignments for you.

The first step in developing a system like the one described in this thread requires you to actually gather the system requirements, think about and design the system, and then (nearly the last step) develop the system.

You should start by asking your client (or yourself, or your teacher...this being whoever you're developing the system for) what the application should do.

Sometimes it helps to write out Use Cases for each component of the system. These use cases just describe how the user interacts with the system. For example:

• On the login form the user enters their user name and password, and then clicks the Login Button.
• If the system validates the users credentials it displays the main page
• If the user fails to provide valid credentials 10 times, the user is locked out of the system

Once it's been clearly stated what the system should do it's a good idea to write up a System Requirements Specifications document outlining everything that's expected. This can be used as a contract between you and the client so that the client gets exactly what they asked for....but it's not necessary to write the SRS document if you're pressed for time.

From the Use Cases you will be able to draw out fundamental system requirements and design the Classes and functions that are required to make the system work. In the above Use Case it's obvious that the system needs to have a User Class (or something)...that the User Class has: User Name, Password, and Lock Out members .... that there is a method that validates the user's credentials.... and that there is a requirement that the user must provide valid credentials (user name and password) within 10 tries.

You can design all of your classes this way. You can use UML to help describe the classes and show how they interact with one another so that you are clear about how the system works, how the components interact with one another, and what has to be done in order to implement (write the code for) the system.

After the system design is complete, then you can start writing the code that implements the design.

If you have not properly thought about the system, and at least attempted some sort of design, do not expect the experts to give you any help. The experts here are not going to put more work into designing your application (doing your homework) than you. They are here to give you a helping hand through specific problems....they are not here to do your work for you.

-Moderator Frinny