Well I have gone and done it. I started a fight with C/C++ programmers over
whether VB was a good language. They seem to think it is a toy. Now I read
SOMEWHERE that VB was either the most successful language of one of the most
successful languages ever. I can not however find a source to support such a
statment.
I know that VB has lower development costs than C/C++ due to its speed of
development and its memory mannagement, but again I don't know where to find
the data/articles/higher athority to make such a claim.
Now don't get me wrong I am a C/C++ developer, but this VB bashing is just
not right, the language has earned its place as one of the top development
platforms -- how do I prove that?
Any idea where such information might be found? Who wirtes articles on what
the industry is using and how much it is costing them?
45  2168 
Nicholas,
This include all versions VBA, VBS, VB6, VBNet.
The one who want to learn VBA users C++ is probably a fool while those who
wants to make technical applications with VBA are in the same categorie,
althoughs those fools exist.
However it is a fact that applications which were in past only possible with
C++ are now possible with C#/VBNet as well.
Cor
"Nicholas M. Makin" <nm**********@yahoo.comschreef in bericht
news:uZ**************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
Well I have gone and done it. I started a fight with C/C++ programmers
over whether VB was a good language. They seem to think it is a toy. Now I
read SOMEWHERE that VB was either the most successful language of one of
the most successful languages ever. I can not however find a source to
support such a statment.
I know that VB has lower development costs than C/C++ due to its speed of
development and its memory mannagement, but again I don't know where to
find the data/articles/higher athority to make such a claim.
Now don't get me wrong I am a C/C++ developer, but this VB bashing is just
not right, the language has earned its place as one of the top development
platforms -- how do I prove that?
Any idea where such information might be found? Who wirtes articles on
what the industry is using and how much it is costing them?
Hi Nicholas,
I was a C++ developer. To be honest I tend to work in whatever language I'm
asked to work in. The difference between the managed and unmanaged world is
very large from a productivity point of view. Things like garbage
collection and background compilation really make VB.NET a joy to use
(although I can imagine it being a pain in other circumstances). The point
is to choose the right tool for the job I think and as a Professional you
are limiting yourself if you stick to one language/thought pattern and
dismiss all others. This kind of debate goes on in all language groups with
one group evangelising one kind of technology over another. It isn't
suprising when you consider the amount of knowledge people invest in their
particular paradigm and the fact their pay-cheques depend on it to an
extent. If you learn the basic form/patterns and concepts however, you
should be able to code in any language.
With VB.NET I'm very pleased to not have to write *, &, :: { } and == quite
so much and it's a royal pain to develop a rich, good looking, modern,
usable and maintainable UI with C++ and MFC.
Robin
VB was the worlds most popular language
Microsoft took a swan dive because they don't know how to innovate any
longer
VB6 rocks.
Vb.net is neither 'Visual' or 'Basic'
the newest version of Visual Fred is coming out in a couple of months
If I were you, I'd move to dreamweaver and use PHP
On May 7, 4:00 pm, "Nicholas M. Makin" <nmaximill...@yahoo.comwrote:
Well I have gone and done it. I started a fight with C/C++ programmers over
whether VB was a good language. They seem to think it is a toy. Now I read
SOMEWHERE that VB was either the most successful language of one of the most
successful languages ever. I can not however find a source to support such a
statment.
I know that VB has lower development costs than C/C++ due to its speed of
development and its memory mannagement, but again I don't know where to find
the data/articles/higher athority to make such a claim.
Now don't get me wrong I am a C/C++ developer, but this VB bashing is just
not right, the language has earned its place as one of the top development
platforms -- how do I prove that?
Any idea where such information might be found? Who wirtes articles on what
the industry is using and how much it is costing them?
we never had to do garbage collection in the first place
that isn't a feature-- that's been around since the 90s
On May 8, 12:42 am, "Robin Tucker" <rtgro...@removehotmail.comwrote:
Hi Nicholas,
I was a C++ developer. To be honest I tend to work in whatever language I'm
asked to work in. The difference between the managed and unmanaged world is
very large from a productivity point of view. Things like garbage
collection and background compilation really make VB.NET a joy to use
(although I can imagine it being a pain in other circumstances). The point
is to choose the right tool for the job I think and as a Professional you
are limiting yourself if you stick to one language/thought pattern and
dismiss all others. This kind of debate goes on in all language groups with
one group evangelising one kind of technology over another. It isn't
suprising when you consider the amount of knowledge people invest in their
particular paradigm and the fact their pay-cheques depend on it to an
extent. If you learn the basic form/patterns and concepts however, you
should be able to code in any language.
With VB.NET I'm very pleased to not have to write *, &, :: { } and == quite
so much and it's a royal pain to develop a rich, good looking, modern,
usable and maintainable UI with C++ and MFC.
Robin
Garbage collection isn't something you "do", it's something that happens.
It doesn't happen in C++, which is why my comments were in context. To be
fair, this isn't a thread about VB, it's a thread about VB.NET.
Robin
"Nicholas M. Makin" <nm**********@yahoo.comwrote in message
news:uZ**************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
Well I have gone and done it. I started a fight with C/C++ programmers
over whether VB was a good language. They seem to think it is a toy. Now I
read SOMEWHERE that VB was either the most successful language of one of
the most successful languages ever. I can not however find a source to
support such a statment.
I know that VB has lower development costs than C/C++ due to its speed of
development and its memory mannagement, but again I don't know where to
find the data/articles/higher athority to make such a claim.
Now don't get me wrong I am a C/C++ developer, but this VB bashing is just
not right, the language has earned its place as one of the top development
platforms -- how do I prove that?
Any idea where such information might be found? Who wirtes articles on
what the industry is using and how much it is costing them?
Regardless of what "evidence" you find, you've picked a fight that you're
unlikely to win. It boils down to emotion and beliefs, rather than facts.
There's a long history of prejudice against VB in all forms as an amateur
tool where the developer didn't really know what was going on. CO/CO++ guys
were using derisive terms like "VB Monkey" when describing VB developers
(haven't heard that much, lately). Do you hear the same thing about C#? I
don't. Yet VB .NET and C# have basically the same capabilities and
limitations when compared to C/C++.
Time will overcome prejudice as major products are developed using managed
code. For example, Visual Studio 2005 has portions rewritten in C# that were
previously C/C++ in prior versions. Your argument of lower
development/maintenance costs was probably used to support that decision. If
you cite this "fact" to your C/C++ friends, they'll immediately counter by
citing performance issues in VS 2005 (and the argument will continue).
My philosophy (and gratuitously provided advice) is: get comfortable with
the notion that there is no single best language for all purposes and that
others will always disagree in one way or another.
--
Peter [MVP Visual Developer]
Jack of all trades, master of none.
Regardless of what "evidence" you find, you've picked a fight that you're
unlikely to win. It boils down to emotion and beliefs, rather than facts.
There's a long history of prejudice against VB in all forms as an amateur
tool where the developer didn't really know what was going on. CO/CO++
guys were using derisive terms like "VB Monkey" when describing VB
developers (haven't heard that much, lately). Do you hear the same thing
about C#? I don't. Yet VB .NET and C# have basically the same capabilities
and limitations when compared to C/C++.
Time will overcome prejudice as major products are developed using managed
code. For example, Visual Studio 2005 has portions rewritten in C# that
were previously C/C++ in prior versions. Your argument of lower
development/maintenance costs was probably used to support that decision.
If you cite this "fact" to your C/C++ friends, they'll immediately counter
by citing performance issues in VS 2005 (and the argument will continue).
My philosophy (and gratuitously provided advice) is: get comfortable with
the notion that there is no single best language for all purposes and that
others will always disagree in one way or another.
--
Peter [MVP Visual Developer]
Jack of all trades, master of none.
I suppose you are correct. I have been down the BASIC bashing route myself.
Of course for me it was because QuickBasic didn't offer the VESA graphics
abilities that I was able to get at with C/Assembly. So I moved on. Then
windows began to change and become less and less DOS-Like and things like
DirectX and OpenGL surpassed my neat little VESA libraries and I wake up one
day to find all my little applications to be obsolete. Problem is I hated
writing windows applications in C/C++. Not being a programmer by trade at
the time I didn't have all that much time to muck about the windows API and
messaging system. So someone suggested VB4 (Actually the suggestion was for
rapid development of a database application I had in mind). I discovered a
platform where I could quickly develop windows applications without all of
the heartache of C. I was able to quickly produce applications and as a
graphics minded programmer I quickly found that most of the big objections
had been overstated. As you said it was mostly and emotional point BASIC vs
C or in point of fact BASIC vs Any-NonBASIC-Language-Here -- there were
Pascal programmers who hated BASIC, there were Fortran programmers who hated
BASIC, even COBOL programmers who hated BASIC, which I, having spent a
little time in COBOL, thought was unfair.
Even the statistics I have found recently have been VB Bashing. It seems
that I am not the only one who hates the advent of .NET (don't get me wrong
there are lots of great thing about .NET... And VB has always needed its
"runtime" libraries... so really there should not be such a problem). But
seeing how there are the regular BASIC-bashers, and now the dotNET-bashers
what is the point in trying to defend VB's dignity?
"Nicholas M. Makin" <nm**********@yahoo.comwrote in message
news:u1**************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>
I suppose you are correct. I have been down the BASIC bashing route
myself. Of course for me it was because QuickBasic didn't offer the VESA
graphics abilities that I was able to get at with C/Assembly. So I moved
on. Then windows began to change and become less and less DOS-Like and
things like DirectX and OpenGL surpassed my neat little VESA libraries and
I wake up one day to find all my little applications to be obsolete.
Problem is I hated writing windows applications in C/C++. Not being a
programmer by trade at the time I didn't have all that much time to muck
about the windows API and messaging system. So someone suggested VB4
(Actually the suggestion was for rapid development of a database
application I had in mind). I discovered a platform where I could quickly
develop windows applications without all of the heartache of C. I was able
to quickly produce applications and as a graphics minded programmer I
quickly found that most of the big objections had been overstated. As you
said it was mostly and emotional point BASIC vs C or in point of fact
BASIC vs Any-NonBASIC-Language-Here -- there were Pascal programmers who
hated BASIC, there were Fortran programmers who hated BASIC, even COBOL
programmers who hated BASIC, which I, having spent a little time in COBOL,
thought was unfair.
Even the statistics I have found recently have been VB Bashing. It seems
that I am not the only one who hates the advent of .NET (don't get me
wrong there are lots of great thing about .NET... And VB has always needed
its "runtime" libraries... so really there should not be such a problem).
But seeing how there are the regular BASIC-bashers, and now the
dotNET-bashers what is the point in trying to defend VB's dignity?
A lot of the anti-VB.NET stuff you'll read comes from a not-so-small and
very vocal group of VB 6 (pre .NET) advocates who are resisting change to
their collective dying breath. If you want to find them, just post a .NET
question in one of the non-.NET VB groups.
Personally, I disagree with their position and resistance to change, but my
opinion doesn't mean much. I used VB 6 for several years and I welcome the
transition to a true object oriented language with greater capabilities and
a far better class library.
--
Peter [MVP Visual Developer]
Jack of all trades, master of none.
Read this: http://www.codeproject.com/dotnet/CSharpVersusVB.asp
and find the "follow up" http://www.codeproject.com/useritems/C___Versus_VB.asp
It'll give you some "bird's eye view" of the situation.
Its two sides of the same coin.
"Nicholas M. Makin" <nm**********@yahoo.comwrote in message
news:uZ**************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
Well I have gone and done it. I started a fight with C/C++ programmers
over
whether VB was a good language. They seem to think it is a toy. Now I read
SOMEWHERE that VB was either the most successful language of one of the
most
successful languages ever. I can not however find a source to support such
a
statment.
I know that VB has lower development costs than C/C++ due to its speed of
development and its memory mannagement, but again I don't know where to
find
the data/articles/higher athority to make such a claim.
Now don't get me wrong I am a C/C++ developer, but this VB bashing is just
not right, the language has earned its place as one of the top development
platforms -- how do I prove that?
Any idea where such information might be found? Who wirtes articles on
what
the industry is using and how much it is costing them?
Sloan,
Read this:
http://www.codeproject.com/dotnet/CSharpVersusVB.asp
I like this sentence from the article.
80% of C# programmers are good, while 80% of VB programmers are not good.
This means that there are in fact confirm the writter much more good VB
programmers than C# programmers in absolute figurs.
Cor
That's what he implies.
The real magic trick is finding them.
I'm on my company's interview team. My rate is about 1 in 15 I'd guess.
RDU/NC, which isn't the worst stomping grounds.
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
Sloan,
Read this:
http://www.codeproject.com/dotnet/CSharpVersusVB.asp
I like this sentence from the article.
80% of C# programmers are good, while 80% of VB programmers are not good.
This means that there are in fact confirm the writter much more good VB
programmers than C# programmers in absolute figurs.
Cor
You know the big problem with such a culture is that it makes getting a job
very difficult. I come form a hobbiest background (my degree is in
Mathematics not CS) and can't seem to get an interview to save my life. I
understand that the emplyers are just afraid that my 15 years of experiance
(as a hobbiest) amount to unstructured experiance and imagine that am a poor
risk. Yet I can assure you (and them) that those 15 years have been well
spent. I may have always been about a decade behind state-of-the art (I can
only use what I can afford) but I am a solid programmer nonetheless. I just
need to find a way to convey that. Not so great at selling myself.
I guess I will give up on defending VB. I suppose that I like it because I
work just was well in C/C++, or Java, and found that its limitations were
just "challenges" to be faced.
Nicholas - don't give up. It can be hard for a person to persuade an
employer that "hobby programming" can actually be useful. I've programmed in
almost every language for the past 25 years, but I'm a self taught
programmer - no CS education here either. I am also a solid programmer and
do a better job than most educated programmers.
Interest means a great deal.
Because of the lack of education, I've always been reluctant to apply for a
job in the computer business and have worked in other businesses throughout
the 25 years - while hobby programming on the side. It was not until ½ year
ago when I decided I really needed to change my life that I got the nerve to
apply for a programmers job. I was astounded: I got a job on my first
interview! Ok, it was as a C# programmer, not as a VB programmer where my
real strength lies - but all the same...
There seems to be a high demand for programmers right now, and I think it's
great that the IT business is recovering from a long dip.
Good luck,
Johnny J.
"Nicholas M. Makin" <nm**********@yahoo.comwrote in message
news:ev****************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
You know the big problem with such a culture is that it makes getting a
job very difficult. I come form a hobbiest background (my degree is in
Mathematics not CS) and can't seem to get an interview to save my life. I
understand that the emplyers are just afraid that my 15 years of
experiance (as a hobbiest) amount to unstructured experiance and imagine
that am a poor risk. Yet I can assure you (and them) that those 15 years
have been well spent. I may have always been about a decade behind
state-of-the art (I can only use what I can afford) but I am a solid
programmer nonetheless. I just need to find a way to convey that. Not so
great at selling myself.
I guess I will give up on defending VB. I suppose that I like it because I
work just was well in C/C++, or Java, and found that its limitations were
just "challenges" to be faced.
I've not had any formal CS education either and found it very difficult to
get an interview for a programming position. I took a job with a major
company in their Tech Support department. Every time an opening for a
programming position came up, I applied, but was never accepted.
I've written quite a few apps, both windows & web, that makes our jobs
easier. At first I was chastised for distributing "rogue" applications...but
when our region couldn't get the corporate programmers to develop apps that
we could actually use, they came to me. I hardly work on hardware any more,
except when I'm needed to take up the slack. I've been un-officially
converted to a full time programmer for the region.
"Johnny Jörgensen" <jo**@altcom.sewrote in message
news:%2***************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
Nicholas - don't give up. It can be hard for a person to persuade an
employer that "hobby programming" can actually be useful. I've programmed
in almost every language for the past 25 years, but I'm a self taught
programmer - no CS education here either. I am also a solid programmer and
do a better job than most educated programmers.
Interest means a great deal.
Terry/Others,
The main reason CS professionals don't usually employ people without a
formal CS education is because they have no way of gauging your basic
knowledge (beyond a one hour interview and a few technical questions). With
a CS degree you are basically demonstrating an understanding of the basic
form and it is then easier for the potential employer to see that you have
the foundations of knowledge neccessary to progress and learn further.
There are many people who think they are skilled coders, who wouldn't know
how to construct some fairly basic data structures (in whatever language),
such as a Binary Tree or Linked List. Although these things are less
important today, having basic knowledge about how things work is fundamental
to producing good software and more particuarly to the process of innovation
and making the right choices with the algorithms and structures your work
promotes. Unless you can demonstrate these things with a previous
substantial piece of work, it is only left for the employer to take your
word for it. I don't know many employers who can justify to their bosses
taking a punt on a new team member without formal qualifications or
demonstrable knowledge and ability. In any case, after your initial
employment, your formal education becomes less important than where you have
worked before and what you were doing there.
In short, if you want to work in CS and can't get a break, go get yourself
some formal CS qualifications. The process is the same in most other
industries, CS is no different.
Robin
I got over the "self taught" hump by two things.
A few classes at some MS certified place. Week long, ~$2500.
Yeah, $2500 out of pocket sucked, but it helped.
And I took 3 grad level classes (1 per semester). It was easy, because I
live 8 miles from NCSU (with a good CSC grad program).
I took 3 classes I ~thought I was good in.
Database Fundamentals
OO
Security
I did ok with a 3.6 GPA in those.
They kicked my butt. I thought I would breeze thru at least the db class.
I put the work in, it was a part time job.
But it got me over the hump.
The reason I stopped at 3, is because NCSU would let you take up to 3
classes without having to actually apply and get into the grad program.
If I did apply and get in, they would count towards the degree.
Anyway, just throwing some ideas out there. http://courses.ncsu.edu/csc.html
Go Pack! http://courses.ncsu.edu/csc540/
It also got me out of the "microsoft only" nutshell.
"Robin Tucker" <rt******@hotmail.co.ukwrote in message
news:f1*******************@news.demon.co.uk...
Terry/Others,
The main reason CS professionals don't usually employ people without a
formal CS education is because they have no way of gauging your basic
knowledge (beyond a one hour interview and a few technical questions).
With
a CS degree you are basically demonstrating an understanding of the basic
form and it is then easier for the potential employer to see that you have
the foundations of knowledge neccessary to progress and learn further.
There are many people who think they are skilled coders, who wouldn't know
how to construct some fairly basic data structures (in whatever language),
such as a Binary Tree or Linked List. Although these things are less
important today, having basic knowledge about how things work is
fundamental
to producing good software and more particuarly to the process of
innovation
and making the right choices with the algorithms and structures your work
promotes. Unless you can demonstrate these things with a previous
substantial piece of work, it is only left for the employer to take your
word for it. I don't know many employers who can justify to their bosses
taking a punt on a new team member without formal qualifications or
demonstrable knowledge and ability. In any case, after your initial
employment, your formal education becomes less important than where you
have
worked before and what you were doing there.
In short, if you want to work in CS and can't get a break, go get yourself
some formal CS qualifications. The process is the same in most other
industries, CS is no different.
Robin
On Wed, 9 May 2007 15:59:51 +0100, "Robin Tucker"
<rt******@hotmail.co.ukwrote:
>Terry/Others,
The main reason CS professionals don't usually employ people without a
formal CS education is because they have no way of gauging your basic
knowledge (beyond a one hour interview and a few technical questions). With
a CS degree you are basically demonstrating an understanding of the basic
form and it is then easier for the potential employer to see that you have
the foundations of knowledge neccessary to progress and learn further.
There are many people who think they are skilled coders, who wouldn't know
how to construct some fairly basic data structures (in whatever language),
such as a Binary Tree or Linked List. Although these things are less
important today, having basic knowledge about how things work is fundamental
to producing good software and more particuarly to the process of innovation
and making the right choices with the algorithms and structures your work
promotes. Unless you can demonstrate these things with a previous
substantial piece of work, it is only left for the employer to take your
word for it. I don't know many employers who can justify to their bosses
taking a punt on a new team member without formal qualifications or
demonstrable knowledge and ability. In any case, after your initial
employment, your formal education becomes less important than where you have
worked before and what you were doing there.
In short, if you want to work in CS and can't get a break, go get yourself
some formal CS qualifications. The process is the same in most other
industries, CS is no different.
Robin
When I decided to switch careers and go into programming (around 1984)
I went to NYU to ask about getting a masters in computer science. The
guy I spoke to told me that it would take at least two years at night
and then I would need to get my first job. Instead, he sent me to the
Continuing Education department where they had a "14 weeks to a
computer certificate" course. There was a summer session coming up
that took 9 weeks full time. I took their aptitude test and came in
6th out of 140.
Twelve weeks later, Banker's Trust hired seven trainees, and six of us
came from the "quickie" computer courses. They explained that a
computer science degree taught folks lots of theory, but the quickie
programs taught how to solve business problems using computers.
Another interesting thing was the breakdown of careers that went into
that quickie program. I came from a biology background, working as a
lab tech, but most folks were musicians. Musicians seem to make good
programmers.
Yes, but to be honest dg there are still a lot of programmers out there
without that basic knowledge. They tend to struggle more when their career
takes an unexpected turn or they need to change fields within CS. The
foundation of knowledge is what makes you adaptable in a learning context.
Of course there are always exceptions. A huge number of programmers back in
the 80's were self-taught (we all had home PCs) but that is not the case
these days. You don't sit down with your new x86 in the lounge and try to
write HELLO WORLD in BASIC any more. The fundemantals are hidden from view.
Perhaps the most important thing a CS degree will give you is confidence in
your ability to learn. There are so many advantages to it I could hardly
recommend the University experience enough. But training courses are just
as good if you want a hand-up to get a real job, it doesn't have to be a
college degree. They are just more fun to do ;).
Robin
degree or no degree .... does not matter!
it is a person's ability to solve problems 'in the real world' and ability
to listen and understand instructions - that will put them above others and
make 'em an asset to any team. Regardless of profession. Before I started
'programming', i was a construction superviser that worked on road and
bridge projects for a forestry company. my last season, I supervised the
installation of 24 bridges (varing lenght 40 feet to 240 feet) and 120 kms
of new road construction. I had many issues that I had to manage ... and
once I figured what out they were, I pulled out ms access (never used it
before but understood the basic concepts of databases). After the
construction season (9 months), i sat down with the client to review how
things went. I pulled out my 'chicken wire' access database and start
pulling the necessary information out and putting it into excel to present
to the client ... remember, my day job was to bady sit a bunch of machine
operators. He was blown away. Upon my return to my office, my boss said
the client wanted me on site the next day for a meeting with their technical
team to develop software. Yes I was disappointed (9 months of camp work = 3
months of time off, until the next construction season ... and 27, just
married, no children, meant a lot of time sitting and travelling with my
wife). Anyhow, met with their 'top' programmers and was assigned as their
business analyst to help them develop an application that would reproduce
what I had done my evenings and spare time. Well, lets say these 'top'
programmers (educated and certified with the latest and greatest technology)
were absolutely useless. Why? Two reasons ... they could not think for
themselves and they would not listen ... if you have at least one of these
skills, you can go without the other ... if you can think, you only need to
listen at a high level; if you can listen, you do not need to think. I got
so frustrated with these 4 morons, I threatened to quit! My boss and the
client asked me want I needed to make this project work, I said some
training how to use MSAccess and VBA ... and these 4 morons as far away as
possible ... done. Over the next 4 months I wrote a consutruction
management package for the client. And since that day, I have not looked
back...I have been developing software for 10 years.
Over these 10 years, I have hired and fired a lot of unversity 'top notch
programmers' ... I have turned projects away due to 'top notch programmers'
that work for the client. So, to say you are unversity educated, and have
this certification, and that certification means absolutely nothing to me!
Show me what you have done, and what real world experience you have. And
give me two reference to call!
Again, if you can think and solve problems ... perfect ... if you can sit,
listen and understand, perfect ... if you have a god complex, good luck!!!
Sure university teaches theory, teaches you a lot about nothing, teaches you
how to get drunk on the littlest amount of money possible ... but it does
not teach you how to listen, it does not teach you how to think, it does not
teach you how to solve problems (i do not mean going to the library and
scamming last years exam to study from - trust me i did it for 8 years!).
If you want to become a professional <insert profession here>, all you need
is a big set of ears and the desire to learn. Do you think I knew how to
launch a 250 foot piece of steel across a 100 foot raven ... not likely ...
yet I was in charge of the construction site. I simple sat back and watched
and asked questions, why ... gained the respect of the crew, and learned a
hell of a lot about their job - what a D9 can push, what are the concerns
beside the obvious - dropping the steel do the hole ... blah blah blah ... i
wanted to understand the processed involved and issue to watch for!!!
Point of thread ... if you want to become a programmer, learn to listen,
learn to solve problems, learn to understand the technologies and techniques
required by your position. In that order. If you can not listen, you are
absolutely no good to any team, I do not care how well you code, you will
not go far.
Jeff.
PS: I have a University degree in mathematics and computer science, I have
another university in engineering ... I am a member of a professional
engineering association ... and to this day, after 18 years of being in the
work force (summer work included), I have learned more from listening to the
people that I work with adn for than I have learned from any book,
professor, course, seminar ... you listen, you are two steps ahead of many
programmers today. 66% of IT projects fail because of communication!
"Robin Tucker" <rt******@hotmail.co.ukwrote in message
news:f1*******************@news.demon.co.uk...
>
Yes, but to be honest dg there are still a lot of programmers out there
without that basic knowledge. They tend to struggle more when their
career takes an unexpected turn or they need to change fields within CS.
The foundation of knowledge is what makes you adaptable in a learning
context. Of course there are always exceptions. A huge number of
programmers back in the 80's were self-taught (we all had home PCs) but
that is not the case these days. You don't sit down with your new x86 in
the lounge and try to write HELLO WORLD in BASIC any more. The
fundemantals are hidden from view.
Perhaps the most important thing a CS degree will give you is confidence
in your ability to learn. There are so many advantages to it I could
hardly recommend the University experience enough. But training courses
are just as good if you want a hand-up to get a real job, it doesn't have
to be a college degree. They are just more fun to do ;).
Robin
Jeff,
I think the OP was talking about how to get that initial job, rather than
how to progress from one to the next. In the former case, you need
qualifications or a substantive body of work as a demonstration of your
skills and knowledge. In the latter case your previous employment shows your
experience and areas of competence.
Robin
I have been at this job search for months with little or no luck. I have a
degree in mathematics with a minor in CS. I took almost evey math class the
school offered (many were grad classes) and all of the CS classes they would
let me take (there are all kinds of requirements to take various higher
level CS classes at the university I went to). I also have a ton of Navy
schools in electronics and computer repair. None of this makes one iota of
differance. I can't get anyone to look seriously at me. I have gotten a few
phone interviews... they stop when they find out my last job was not in
programming.
Interviewer, "So what was your last job?"
Me, "Well I worked at a stone shop for a friend of mine working as an
operator/technician on some new equipment he just purchaced."
Interviewer, "So that was not programming?"
Me, "Well I developed some applications for the office in Excel and Visio,
VBA mostly."
Interviewer, "Well, tell you what I am going to do, I amgoing to kick this
upstairs and see if they want to continue the interview. Thank you for your
time."
Translation: I have just been blown off.
I have been though about 6-7 different versions of the above conversation. I
*think* that I am getting better at putting a positive spin on things but I
still can't seem to get an actual interview.
I read that statistics. 199/200 programmers can't program, 15/20 interviewd
can't even solve simple problems, 7/8 interviewed don't even know basic
syntax for loop construction etc etc etc....
I understand WHY employers are so nervous about hiring people. I may be a
hobbiest but I have a degree in a technical field and LOTS of experiance
(not to mention a good bit of CS theory classes). But I need to find a
better way to present myself to employers because what I am doing now is
just NOT working.
I didn't mean I would give up on finding a job... just defending VB against
its attacks as a toy language.
"Johnny Jörgensen" <jo**@altcom.sewrote in message
news:%2***************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
Nicholas - don't give up. It can be hard for a person to persuade an
employer that "hobby programming" can actually be useful. I've programmed
in almost every language for the past 25 years, but I'm a self taught
programmer - no CS education here either. I am also a solid programmer and
do a better job than most educated programmers.
Interest means a great deal.
Because of the lack of education, I've always been reluctant to apply for
a job in the computer business and have worked in other businesses
throughout the 25 years - while hobby programming on the side. It was not
until ½ year ago when I decided I really needed to change my life that I
got the nerve to apply for a programmers job. I was astounded: I got a job
on my first interview! Ok, it was as a C# programmer, not as a VB
programmer where my real strength lies - but all the same...
There seems to be a high demand for programmers right now, and I think
it's great that the IT business is recovering from a long dip.
Good luck,
Johnny J.
"Nicholas M. Makin" <nm**********@yahoo.comwrote in message
news:ev****************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>You know the big problem with such a culture is that it makes getting a
job very difficult. I come form a hobbiest background (my degree is in
Mathematics not CS) and can't seem to get an interview to save my life. I
understand that the emplyers are just afraid that my 15 years of
experiance (as a hobbiest) amount to unstructured experiance and imagine
that am a poor risk. Yet I can assure you (and them) that those 15 years
have been well spent. I may have always been about a decade behind
state-of-the art (I can only use what I can afford) but I am a solid
programmer nonetheless. I just need to find a way to convey that. Not so
great at selling myself.
I guess I will give up on defending VB. I suppose that I like it because
I work just was well in C/C++, or Java, and found that its limitations
were just "challenges" to be faced.
Nicholas,
I can see your predicament. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but
on the whole a CS education is better than not if you see what I mean. I'm
not a careers advisor but if I were to give some advice it would be to find
an employment agency that deals with technical recruitment and get them to
pitch you to potential employers at the graduate level. You also need to be
looking at small to medium sized companies. Large companies tend to take
the top graduates straight from uni into their graduate programmes and then
hire experienced staff at other levels. If that fails find a susbstantive
project to work on that can show evidence of competence. I know a lot of CS
masters graduates who majored in other subjects - off the top of my head,
one in Physics, the other in Mining Engineering - they are probably the two
most competent engineers in our code-shop. To be honest a degree in
Mathematics is one of the most useful you can have for software development.
Don't emphasise your hobbiest experience because that may make you look
unprofessional. If you have some spare $$$ or are able to service a career
development loan you could always study for a MCTS or MCPD
( http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mc.../default.mspx).
I don't know how it is in the US but in the UK I don't think you would be
unemployed for long.
Robin
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in
news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl:
I like this sentence from the article.
80% of C# programmers are good, while 80% of VB programmers are not good.
This means that there are in fact confirm the writter much more good VB
programmers than C# programmers in absolute figurs.
I guess it's because VB is easier to pick up ... hence it attracts less
skilled developers.
I found this to be the case with classic VB developers who pick up VB.NET.
They assume VB.NET is the same as VB6 ... and they end up writing horrid
non-OO code.
However, if you get someone who is comfortable in an OO environment
(Java/C#/C++, etc)... VB.NET, C#, etc won't really make a difference.
dgk <dg*@somewhere.comwrote in news:9h56431e5uu7208dtv763ah05d8iv9f4vb@
4ax.com:
Twelve weeks later, Banker's Trust hired seven trainees, and six of us
came from the "quickie" computer courses. They explained that a
computer science degree taught folks lots of theory, but the quickie
programs taught how to solve business problems using computers.
<sigh>
Yeah I found community college grads sure can churn out programs - but the
quality is horrid. Unfortunately the ones I met *think* they're good
programmers, but I had to keep myself from snickering.
Anyways, that's my (limited) experience with quickie computer courses...
"Nicholas M. Makin" <nm**********@yahoo.comwrote in
news:#d**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl:
>
Interviewer, "So what was your last job?"
Me, "Well I worked at a stone shop for a friend of mine working as an
operator/technician on some new equipment he just purchaced."
Interviewer, "So that was not programming?"
Me, "Well I developed some applications for the office in Excel and
Visio, VBA mostly."
Interviewer, "Well, tell you what I am going to do, I amgoing to kick
this upstairs and see if they want to continue the interview. Thank
you for your time."
I understand WHY employers are so nervous about hiring people. I may
be a hobbiest but I have a degree in a technical field and LOTS of
experiance (not to mention a good bit of CS theory classes). But I
need to find a better way to present myself to employers because what
I am doing now is just NOT working.
I would start building some serious applications on the side. Perhaps
shareware?
Also offer to send code of a complete working application to an employer to
review?
Unfortunately since you've only done excel/visio/vba programming - it's
pretty much tinkering.
I was once a car mechanic :-| :-)
And this is the truth , i am not joking , and if i read this hole thread , i
see some people that in my opinion understand what it takes to be a true
programmer , and i see some people only focussing on degrees .
I program in basic since 13 years of age , and i could and can learn pretty
good ( autodidact ) , so after a career in the automotive ( last three
years , management level , and got all my certs to be a qualified mechanic
on the highest level ) i decided i wanted to make from my hobby my work .
So i got employed as a software tester , at a company who makes automotive
cataloging systems , as a person coming from the actuall business i was
perfect for the job of reviewing there software ( as i had also lots of
computer knowledge ) at some point they asked me if i could also do the
second line helpdesk , cause they noticed that i could solve lots of
installation errors .
In this position i also had access to computers with a dev environment ( VB
4 - 5 ) so in the silent hours i wrote a helpdesk program , in a later stage
i ported this program to the web for our european offices ( Classic ASP )
after a few years while these programs were even beeing sold to third
partys they asked me if i would like to join there development team .
The team existed out of 2 proggers and a designer , these university
skilled proggers never shared anny knowledge, even better they did there
best to make me feel bad as i was not a true progger cause i did not have
the formel education , i was just a "Hobbyist" who could not write a true
application in the way it was intended , so i started buying books from
Amazon and studyed ( i have a whole library by now ) i signed up with VUE
and started to study for my MCP`s
In the meanwhile it was noticed by the management that :
1. My customers where verry statisfied with me ( i could deliver what they
asked )
2. My programs where the most stable of the company with userbase of 20000
throughout Europe but the helpdesk lines were almost silent for my progs (
in contradiction to those of my co workers :-) )
At a certain stage in my career at this company i was asked to create a
hughe web project with the designer ( VS.Net ) , however as this project
was so hughe the customer had rented a German firm to review all sources ,
when these people arived and started with there questions , i noticed that i
could verry easy give all the right answers ( and believe my i was verry
afraid of this encounter ) , when they reviewed and tested my source codes
( mainly the Business Logic components ) they were verry impressed and
certified everything without anny noticable problems . i did not have to
redo anny work source level at all ( only needed to change some
documentation )
I have written dozens of Winforms and Web applications commercial with a
userbase of 20000 users throughout europe ( only in germany the userbase was
already 6000 ) in VB 6 and VB.Net i did them all alone from scratch
inclusive installation routines .
My co workers now had a new one ,,,,, " You can only program so good
because you know the business so well , you have a unfair advantage opon us
, if you would have to make a program outside of the automotive you would
have been lost " .
Well i see why my good knowledge of the automotive branche would have made
my programs more as how the customer wants it , however i do not see why my
programs were more stable as there`s :-)
However i never go away from a challenge so , last year after almost 8 years
deployment at this company i decided to quit this job , i currently work
internally for a big international firm , and work in a three man team on a
new internall production system, this firm relates to the energy sector i
got a contract for a half year
but after three months my manager wanted to talk to me ( i thought i was
going to be sacked ) however he offered me a new contract , one that is
valid until my retirement .
So i guess i am doing something good ??
In my opinion a good programmer is someone who is eager to learn and never
stops learning
I have once thought about getting my degree , however here in the
Netherlands these educations are verry expensive , and take a long time ( 4
years , for your BCH ) , and on the other hand if i need to explain to new
co workers who have these degrees what is BCNF and how a object preferably
should be constructed
i guess i do not need it .
But as i said i never stop learning , i am still a good customer of Amazon
and i buy all the self pacerd traing kits and the advanced topics books of
MS Press
i guess it is time to get some MCTS , MCPD certificates this year ( if i
can find the time to attend them ) .
i still do multiple disciplines of programming winforms , web ,
distributed ( remoting , COM , webservices )
so i have really gone from mechanic to enterprise developer :-)
In the end the person makes the programmer not the paper
Michel Posseth
"Spam Catcher" <sp**********@rogers.comschreef in bericht
news:Xn*********************************@127.0.0.1 ...
"Nicholas M. Makin" <nm**********@yahoo.comwrote in
news:#d**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl:
>>
Interviewer, "So what was your last job?"
Me, "Well I worked at a stone shop for a friend of mine working as an
operator/technician on some new equipment he just purchaced."
Interviewer, "So that was not programming?"
Me, "Well I developed some applications for the office in Excel and
Visio, VBA mostly."
Interviewer, "Well, tell you what I am going to do, I amgoing to kick
this upstairs and see if they want to continue the interview. Thank
you for your time."
>I understand WHY employers are so nervous about hiring people. I may
be a hobbiest but I have a degree in a technical field and LOTS of
experiance (not to mention a good bit of CS theory classes). But I
need to find a better way to present myself to employers because what
I am doing now is just NOT working.
I would start building some serious applications on the side. Perhaps
shareware?
Also offer to send code of a complete working application to an employer
to
review?
Unfortunately since you've only done excel/visio/vba programming - it's
pretty much tinkering.
Spam,
"Spam Catcher" <sp**********@rogers.comschrieb:
>I like this sentence from the article.
80% of C# programmers are good, while 80% of VB programmers are not good.
This means that there are in fact confirm the writter much more good VB
programmers than C# programmers in absolute figurs.
I guess it's because VB is easier to pick up ... hence it attracts less
skilled developers.
I think it's important to clarify what "not good" means when talking about a
programmer. Most of the code written is simple automation code or simple
applications used indoor to perform certain operations. There is no need to
them being very performant, very secure, well-architectured, ... These
applications simply need to work in order to get some data processed.
However, I do not think people writing these applications are bad
programmers. They just do not have as strict requirements as developers of,
for example, libraries (which are reused several times) do.
I found this to be the case with classic VB developers who pick up VB.NET.
They assume VB.NET is the same as VB6 ... and they end up writing horrid
non-OO code.
Well, in the C# group I regularly see people coming from C++ who write
horrible C# code because they try to apply low-level tricks they were able
to use in C++.
--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/dotnet/faqs/>
Nicholas,
"Nicholas M. Makin" <nm**********@yahoo.comschrieb:
I understand WHY employers are so nervous about hiring people. I may be a
hobbiest but I have a degree in a technical field and LOTS of experiance
(not to mention a good bit of CS theory classes). But I need to find a
better way to present myself to employers because what I am doing now is
just NOT working.
Unfortunately that's reality. I don't linke employers who are asking for a
list of technologies one has been working with because people who want the
job won't give true answers. However, in reality employers want people who
have all current technologies in their portfolio, which is impossible!
Maybe you are attempting to get the wrong job. By holding a degree you
don't need to apply for a simple programming job. It's the knowledge in the
field of your education which you are selling, not the ability to write
working looping constructs in a certain programming language.
--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/dotnet/faqs/>
"Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hi***************@gmx.atwrote in
news:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl:
>I found this to be the case with classic VB developers who pick up
VB.NET. They assume VB.NET is the same as VB6 ... and they end up
writing horrid non-OO code.
Well, in the C# group I regularly see people coming from C++ who write
horrible C# code because they try to apply low-level tricks they were
able to use in C++.
True ... people who come from an unmanaged background sometimes do use
tricks that do not work well in a managed enviornment. Then again, I'm sure
a lot of C++ programmers complain about "lazy" .NET/Java programmers who
attempt to program C++ :-)
>
Unfortunately since you've only done excel/visio/vba programming - it's
pretty much tinkering.
>
Unfortunately since you've only done excel/visio/vba programming - it's
pretty much tinkering.
lol - Lets see I started out programming on a Tandy CoCo II in BASIC around
1990. I then moved to COBOL, then Pascal, C/C++, then was obsessed with
assembly. In the Navy I used Perl and TCL/TK on HP-UX. This is also where I
was introduced to VBS and VBA. In school things were mostly Java, and
Mathematica, with a tincture of MatLab thrown in there from the engineering
classes.
When I say that I am a "hobbyist" programmer, I am NOT talking about a few
push button apps in VBA. I was writing TSR programs for MS-DOS before I
graduated high school. I wrote my first graphics library in C/Assembly then
too. The CS classes at the university were cake for me because I had been
tutoring the CS students at a local university when I was in high school.
Over 15 years of experience as a programmer does not equate to "only done
excel/visio/vba programming" and this is my problem, I am not able to convey
my experience and passion for programming. This, "it's pretty much
tinkering" thing comes across, not the 15 years worth of code in over 20
languages: I once programmed a BBS in SALT for TELIX -- remember that? I
wrote a great little mad-lib program in LISP. I have the bulk of my
mathematics research in mathematica and C++, I have school projects in Java.
I have an oscilloscope circuit analyzer written in VB using DirectX8. I have
about 100 different mathematical screen savers written in about 5 languages
(whatever I was "into" at the time).
How can anyone imagine 15 years of programming implies a few scripts in VBA?
lol, this is my frustration.
How did this thread end up on this topic anyway? :) Though I do appreciate
the comments. Finding a job has been frustrating me for months. I hope that
once I get a decent interview I will be able to convey my passion for what I
have dedicated my life to doing. Belive it or not I have had a good bit of
success as an actor and playwrite, something that I also love, but have
chosen to let slide because THIS is what I have always wanted to do.
Unfortunately that's reality. I don't linke employers who are asking for
a list of technologies one has been working with because people who want
the job won't give true answers. However, in reality employers want
people who have all current technologies in their portfolio, which is
impossible! Maybe you are attempting to get the wrong job. By holding a
degree you don't need to apply for a simple programming job. It's the
knowledge in the field of your education which you are selling, not the
ability to write working looping constructs in a certain programming
language.
--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/dotnet/faqs/>
Thank you very much for your insight. This is one of the most helpful things
anyone has said to me this entire job search.
You know the world in changing. NASA is hoping to begin a sustained mission
to the moon. SUSTAINED MISSION. There is SO much work to be done, and I for
one want nothing more than to help. Ever since I was a boy I have felt that
man kind is trapped here and felt a need to help mankind "get off this
rock." For years I was depressed because as I grew I realized that such
fantastic ideas were not very economically friendly and often it seems as
though economics are THE most important thing on the planet. (Though I wish
it were something more in tune with the well-being of mankind as a whole).
Now NASA proposes to build the jumping off point -- so that maybe such
things will become economically feasible.
We always look back on the past and say, "I wish I were alive in that
exciting time" when the world was changing. The beginning of the industrial
revolution, the beginning of the information revolution... now just may be
the beginning of the space revolution -- and here we are.
This is an area I personally would really like to work in, and the above
advice is just the sort of thing I need to think about to do that. Thank
you.
"Nicholas M. Makin" <nm**********@yahoo.comwrote in
news:OF*************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl:
>>
Unfortunately since you've only done excel/visio/vba programming -
it's pretty much tinkering.
lol - Lets see I started out programming on a Tandy CoCo II in BASIC
around 1990. I then moved to COBOL, then Pascal, C/C++, then was
obsessed with assembly. In the Navy I used Perl and TCL/TK on HP-UX.
This is also where I was introduced to VBS and VBA. In school things
were mostly Java, and Mathematica, with a tincture of MatLab thrown in
there from the engineering classes.
That was the impression I got when you mentioned VBA. It seems like you
have a wealth of knowledge.
Hmmm could it be the resume? Are you landing interviews? Do you feel like
posting an "anonymized" copy of the resume online for critique?
well in my hole blah blah beating myself on the chest story ( sory for
that ) :-)
you should have read
In my opinion a good programmer is someone who is eager to learn and never
stops learning about his job
You must just find a employer who dares to take the risk to let you proove
yourself , in my situation i could take the job against a lower salary as i
had when i changed from my management job at a Volkswagen Audi dealership ,
however i could get the job only because i brought in my automotive
knowledge . ( in the end it turned out right )
So maybe you should search yourself for an employer who might be interested
in a combinbation of knowledge that you posess , then if you have the
position ( have the title programmer , software developer or whatever they
call it ) it will be very easy to get in by another company .
Last time i used monster ( monsterboard ) i got 38 invitations after 2 days
while i made a note that i do not hold anny degree at all
regards
and success
Michel
"Nicholas M. Makin" <nm**********@yahoo.comschreef in bericht
news:OF*************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
Unfortunately since you've only done excel/visio/vba programming - it's
pretty much tinkering.
>>
Unfortunately since you've only done excel/visio/vba programming - it's
pretty much tinkering.
lol - Lets see I started out programming on a Tandy CoCo II in BASIC
around 1990. I then moved to COBOL, then Pascal, C/C++, then was obsessed
with assembly. In the Navy I used Perl and TCL/TK on HP-UX. This is also
where I was introduced to VBS and VBA. In school things were mostly Java,
and Mathematica, with a tincture of MatLab thrown in there from the
engineering classes.
When I say that I am a "hobbyist" programmer, I am NOT talking about a few
push button apps in VBA. I was writing TSR programs for MS-DOS before I
graduated high school. I wrote my first graphics library in C/Assembly
then too. The CS classes at the university were cake for me because I had
been tutoring the CS students at a local university when I was in high
school.
Over 15 years of experience as a programmer does not equate to "only done
excel/visio/vba programming" and this is my problem, I am not able to
convey my experience and passion for programming. This, "it's pretty much
tinkering" thing comes across, not the 15 years worth of code in over 20
languages: I once programmed a BBS in SALT for TELIX -- remember that? I
wrote a great little mad-lib program in LISP. I have the bulk of my
mathematics research in mathematica and C++, I have school projects in
Java. I have an oscilloscope circuit analyzer written in VB using
DirectX8. I have about 100 different mathematical screen savers written in
about 5 languages (whatever I was "into" at the time).
How can anyone imagine 15 years of programming implies a few scripts in
VBA?
lol, this is my frustration.
How did this thread end up on this topic anyway? :) Though I do appreciate
the comments. Finding a job has been frustrating me for months. I hope
that once I get a decent interview I will be able to convey my passion for
what I have dedicated my life to doing. Belive it or not I have had a good
bit of success as an actor and playwrite, something that I also love, but
have chosen to let slide because THIS is what I have always wanted to do.
Interviewer, "So what was your last job?"
Me, "Well I worked at a stone shop for a friend of mine working as an
operator/technician on some new equipment he just purchaced."
Interviewer, "So that was not programming?"
Here's a workaround idea for you: If employers "complaint" that your last
job was not in software development, then why don't you just start a company
for yourself? Doesn't matter how much or how little you program, you can
truthfully say "I've got my own software development company" even though
your "real work" might be something else. You would probably have to find
some excuse for wanting to "quit" your business and take up regular
employment. Maybe something like "too much administration with employees,
taxes etc - All I really want to do is code..."
This is not exactly cheating, just bending the truth a little. In the end it
wont matter to your employer if you do a good job for him.
Cheers,
Johnny J.
Cor
your logic is flawed kid
4 million VB DEvelopers = 800,000 good VB Developers
10,000 C# Developers = 8,000 good C# developers
there is no such thing as a 'good C# developer' because C# is a trendy
friggin language WITH NO POINT
C# was never invented, fucktard
On May 8, 5:05 pm, "Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstn...@planet.nl>
wrote:
Sloan,
Read this:
http://www.codeproject.com/dotnet/CSharpVersusVB.asp
I like this sentence from the article.
80% of C# programmers are good, while 80% of VB programmers are not good.
This means that there are in fact confirm the writter much more good VB
programmers than C# programmers in absolute figurs.
Cor
we don't resist change
we resist POINTLESS CHANGE
we resist getting ADO.net where you can neither keep a connection open
or use two recordsets at once
do the math-- VB6 has a larger installation base than this DOTNOT crap
On May 8, 1:03 pm, "pvdg42" <pvd...@newsgroups.nospamwrote:
"Nicholas M. Makin" <nmaximill...@yahoo.comwrote in messagenews:u1**************@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl. ..
I suppose you are correct. I have been down the BASIC bashing route
myself. Of course for me it was because QuickBasic didn't offer the VESA
graphics abilities that I was able to get at with C/Assembly. So I moved
on. Then windows began to change and become less and less DOS-Like and
things like DirectX and OpenGL surpassed my neat little VESA libraries and
I wake up one day to find all my little applications to be obsolete.
Problem is I hated writing windows applications in C/C++. Not being a
programmer by trade at the time I didn't have all that much time to muck
about the windows API and messaging system. So someone suggested VB4
(Actually the suggestion was for rapid development of a database
application I had in mind). I discovered a platform where I could quickly
develop windows applications without all of the heartache of C. I was able
to quickly produce applications and as a graphics minded programmer I
quickly found that most of the big objections had been overstated. As you
said it was mostly and emotional point BASIC vs C or in point of fact
BASIC vs Any-NonBASIC-Language-Here -- there were Pascal programmers who
hated BASIC, there were Fortran programmers who hated BASIC, even COBOL
programmers who hated BASIC, which I, having spent a little time in COBOL,
thought was unfair.
Even the statistics I have found recently have been VB Bashing. It seems
that I am not the only one who hates the advent of .NET (don't get me
wrong there are lots of great thing about .NET... And VB has always needed
its "runtime" libraries... so really there should not be such a problem).
But seeing how there are the regular BASIC-bashers, and now the
dotNET-bashers what is the point in trying to defend VB's dignity?
A lot of the anti-VB.NET stuff you'll read comes from a not-so-small and
very vocal group of VB 6 (pre .NET) advocates who are resisting change to
their collective dying breath. If you want to find them, just post a .NET
question in one of the non-.NET VB groups.
Personally, I disagree with their position and resistance to change, but my
opinion doesn't mean much. I used VB 6 for several years and I welcome the
transition to a true object oriented language with greater capabilities and
a far better class library.
--
Peter [MVP Visual Developer]
Jack of all trades, master of none.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Robin
you're full of crap
there is no point to a formal education
What are they going to teach you.. machine language and Cobol?
Universities are 20 years behind reality
On May 9, 7:59 am, "Robin Tucker" <rtgro...@hotmail.co.ukwrote:
Terry/Others,
The main reason CS professionals don't usually employ people without a
formal CS education is because they have no way of gauging your basic
knowledge (beyond a one hour interview and a few technical questions). With
a CS degree you are basically demonstrating an understanding of the basic
form and it is then easier for the potential employer to see that you have
the foundations of knowledge neccessary to progress and learn further.
There are many people who think they are skilled coders, who wouldn't know
how to construct some fairly basic data structures (in whatever language),
such as a Binary Tree or Linked List. Although these things are less
important today, having basic knowledge about how things work is fundamental
to producing good software and more particuarly to the process of innovation
and making the right choices with the algorithms and structures your work
promotes. Unless you can demonstrate these things with a previous
substantial piece of work, it is only left for the employer to take your
word for it. I don't know many employers who can justify to their bosses
taking a punt on a new team member without formal qualifications or
demonstrable knowledge and ability. In any case, after your initial
employment, your formal education becomes less important than where you have
worked before and what you were doing there.
In short, if you want to work in CS and can't get a break, go get yourself
some formal CS qualifications. The process is the same in most other
industries, CS is no different.
Robin
we write horrid non-oo programs.. because OO is mother fucking
pointless, kid
stop living your life out of a marketing guide from MSDN magazine
On May 11, 10:23 pm, Spam Catcher <spamhoney...@rogers.comwrote:
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <notmyfirstn...@planet.nlwrote innews:e0**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl:
I like this sentence from the article.
80% of C# programmers are good, while 80% of VB programmers are not good.
This means that there are in fact confirm the writter much more good VB
programmers than C# programmers in absolute figurs.
I guess it's because VB is easier to pick up ... hence it attracts less
skilled developers.
I found this to be the case with classic VB developers who pick up VB.NET.
They assume VB.NET is the same as VB6 ... and they end up writing horrid
non-OO code.
However, if you get someone who is comfortable in an OO environment
(Java/C#/C++, etc)... VB.NET, C#, etc won't really make a difference.
Unfortunately what the group troll does not understand is that formal
education is the bedrock upon which professionalism is built and upon which
lifes experiences are interpreted and assimilated. A broad education with
a CS major gives you a foundation for future learning. Without it you may
struggle to pick up new concepts and ideas. Something the group troll
existence proves.
At University I was taught basic principles. Practical assignments to make
those principles concrete were taught in the following languages: Prolog,
Occam, Modula-2, Oberon, Java, Visual Basic (3). At University I taught
myself C, C++ and Assembler. The point is that a University education is
not teaching you to walk in to an employer an expert in anything. It is a
guarantee to an employer you have at least covered the basic principles upon
which almost the entire base of CS knowledge is founded. The fact you
haven't had this experience probably explains your resistence to progress.
I on the other hand, did not struggle with the principles of VB.NET when I
moved from working with VB 6 or C++, because I already understood the basic
form. I am happy to work in any language and with any technology my
employer asks me to use.
Robin
<aa*********@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11*********************@e65g2000hsc.googlegro ups.com...
Robin
you're full of crap
there is no point to a formal education
What are they going to teach you.. machine language and Cobol?
Universities are 20 years behind reality
On May 9, 7:59 am, "Robin Tucker" <rtgro...@hotmail.co.ukwrote:
>Terry/Others,
The main reason CS professionals don't usually employ people without a
formal CS education is because they have no way of gauging your basic
knowledge (beyond a one hour interview and a few technical questions).
With
a CS degree you are basically demonstrating an understanding of the basic
form and it is then easier for the potential employer to see that you
have
the foundations of knowledge neccessary to progress and learn further.
There are many people who think they are skilled coders, who wouldn't
know
how to construct some fairly basic data structures (in whatever
language),
such as a Binary Tree or Linked List. Although these things are less
important today, having basic knowledge about how things work is
fundamental
to producing good software and more particuarly to the process of
innovation
and making the right choices with the algorithms and structures your work
promotes. Unless you can demonstrate these things with a previous
substantial piece of work, it is only left for the employer to take your
word for it. I don't know many employers who can justify to their bosses
taking a punt on a new team member without formal qualifications or
demonstrable knowledge and ability. In any case, after your initial
employment, your formal education becomes less important than where you
have
worked before and what you were doing there.
In short, if you want to work in CS and can't get a break, go get
yourself
some formal CS qualifications. The process is the same in most other
industries, CS is no different.
Robin
ROFL
good stuff kid
other than the FACT that I am a superior coder; you can lick my balls
I'm so sorry that you jumped on the 'what is the trendy programmning
language of the month' bandwagon
I don't think that a formal education is necessary.
I have a college degree in 'Management Information Systems' and I
don't think that I use 10% of what I was taught in school.
Maybe I should have gone into Computer Science; of course-- back then
they're teaching cobol and machine language
and they still are so fuck them
Why would I want to go and study C++?
If colleges took VB seriously-- and built a whole degree around it--
then I might go back for secondary eduction
but until then? the colleges and universities of the world are still
preaching C++ _CRAP_ when VB obviously won the war
but until then? the colleges and universities of the world are still
preaching C++ _CRAP_ when VB obviously won the war
but until then? the colleges and universities of the world are still
preaching C++ _CRAP_ when VB obviously won the war
On May 11, 5:06 pm, "Robin Tucker" <rtgro...@removehotmail.comwrote:
Nicholas,
I can see your predicament. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule, but
on the whole a CS education is better than not if you see what I mean. I'm
not a careers advisor but if I were to give some advice it would be to find
an employment agency that deals with technical recruitment and get them to
pitch you to potential employers at the graduate level. You also need to be
looking at small to medium sized companies. Large companies tend to take
the top graduates straight from uni into their graduate programmes and then
hire experienced staff at other levels. If that fails find a susbstantive
project to work on that can show evidence of competence. I know a lot of CS
masters graduates who majored in other subjects - off the top of my head,
one in Physics, the other in Mining Engineering - they are probably the two
most competent engineers in our code-shop. To be honest a degree in
Mathematics is one of the most useful you can have for software development.
Don't emphasise your hobbiest experience because that may make you look
unprofessional. If you have some spare $$$ or are able to service a career
development loan you could always study for a MCTS or MCPD
(http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mc.../default.mspx).
I don't know how it is in the US but in the UK I don't think you would be
unemployed for long.
Robin
yeah you should learn Microsoft Access if you're an Excel Dork
MIcrosoft Access is the most popular flavor of Visual Basic these
days.
I use a simple platform called 'Access Data Projects' that works great
with SQL Server
Highly reccomended-- that you focus on business apps-- financial
reporting for example- and screw crap like VB.net EXE and shareware..
ROFL
shareware
do you know Reporting Services?
SQL Server?
Oracle?
On May 11, 10:29 pm, Spam Catcher <spamhoney...@rogers.comwrote:
"Nicholas M. Makin" <nmaximill...@yahoo.comwrote innews:#d**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl:
Interviewer, "So what was your last job?"
Me, "Well I worked at a stone shop for a friend of mine working as an
operator/technician on some new equipment he just purchaced."
Interviewer, "So that was not programming?"
Me, "Well I developed some applications for the office in Excel and
Visio, VBA mostly."
Interviewer, "Well, tell you what I am going to do, I amgoing to kick
this upstairs and see if they want to continue the interview. Thank
you for your time."
I understand WHY employers are so nervous about hiring people. I may
be a hobbiest but I have a degree in a technical field and LOTS of
experiance (not to mention a good bit of CS theory classes). But I
need to find a better way to present myself to employers because what
I am doing now is just NOT working.
I would start building some serious applications on the side. Perhaps
shareware?
Also offer to send code of a complete working application to an employer to
review?
Unfortunately since you've only done excel/visio/vba programming - it's
pretty much tinkering.
I program in BASIC since 1982.. I was 8
On May 12, 1:15 am, "Michel Posseth [MCP]" <M...@posseth.comwrote:
I was once a car mechanic :-| :-)
And this is the truth , i am not joking , and if i read this hole thread , i
see some people that in my opinion understand what it takes to be a true
programmer , and i see some people only focussing on degrees .
I program in basic since 13 years of age , and i could and can learn pretty
good ( autodidact ) , so after a career in the automotive ( last three
years , management level , and got all my certs to be a qualified mechanic
on the highest level ) i decided i wanted to make from my hobby my work .
So i got employed as a software tester , at a company who makes automotive
cataloging systems , as a person coming from the actuall business i was
perfect for the job of reviewing there software ( as i had also lots of
computer knowledge ) at some point they asked me if i could also do the
second line helpdesk , cause they noticed that i could solve lots of
installation errors .
In this position i also had access to computers with a dev environment ( VB
4 - 5 ) so in the silent hours i wrote a helpdesk program , in a later stage
i ported this program to the web for our european offices ( Classic ASP )
after a few years while these programs were even beeing sold to third
partys they asked me if i would like to join there development team .
The team existed out of 2 proggers and a designer , these university
skilled proggers never shared anny knowledge, even better they did there
best to make me feel bad as i was not a true progger cause i did not have
the formel education , i was just a "Hobbyist" who could not write a true
application in the way it was intended , so i started buying books from
Amazon and studyed ( i have a whole library by now ) i signed up with VUE
and started to study for my MCP`s
In the meanwhile it was noticed by the management that :
1. My customers where verry statisfied with me ( i could deliver what they
asked )
2. My programs where the most stable of the company with userbase of 20000
throughout Europe but the helpdesk lines were almost silent for my progs (
in contradiction to those of my co workers :-) )
At a certain stage in my career at this company i was asked to create a
hughe web project with the designer ( VS.Net ) , however as this project
was so hughe the customer had rented a German firm to review all sources ,
when these people arived and started with there questions , i noticed that i
could verry easy give all the right answers ( and believe my i was verry
afraid of this encounter ) , when they reviewed and tested my source codes
( mainly the Business Logic components ) they were verry impressed and
certified everything without anny noticable problems . i did not have to
redo anny work source level at all ( only needed to change some
documentation )
I have written dozens of Winforms and Web applications commercial with a
userbase of 20000 users throughout europe ( only in germany the userbase was
already 6000 ) in VB 6 and VB.Net i did them all alone from scratch
inclusive installation routines .
My co workers now had a new one ,,,,, " You can only program so good
because you know the business so well , you have a unfair advantage opon us
, if you would have to make a program outside of the automotive you would
have been lost " .
Well i see why my good knowledge of the automotive branche would have made
my programs more as how the customer wants it , however i do not see why my
programs were more stable as there`s :-)
However i never go away from a challenge so , last year after almost 8 years
deployment at this company i decided to quit this job , i currently work
internally for a big international firm , and work in a three man team on a
new internall production system, this firm relates to the energy sector i
got a contract for a half year
but after three months my manager wanted to talk to me ( i thought i was
going to be sacked ) however he offered me a new contract , one that is
valid until my retirement .
So i guess i am doing something good ??
In my opinion a good programmer is someone who is eager to learn and never
stops learning
I have once thought about getting my degree , however here in the
Netherlands these educations are verry expensive , and take a long time ( 4
years , for your BCH ) , and on the other hand if i need to explain to new
co workers who have these degrees what is BCNF and how a object preferably
should be constructed
i guess i do not need it .
But as i said i never stop learning , i am still a good customer of Amazon
and i buy all the self pacerd traing kits and the advanced topics books of
MS Press
i guess it is time to get some MCTS , MCPD certificates this year ( if i
can find the time to attend them ) .
i still do multiple disciplines of programming winforms , web ,
distributed ( remoting , COM , webservices )
so i have really gone from mechanic to enterprise developer :-)
In the end the person makes the programmer not the paper
Michel Posseth
"Spam Catcher" <spamhoney...@rogers.comschreef in berichtnews:Xn*********************************@12 7.0.0.1...
"Nicholas M. Makin" <nmaximill...@yahoo.comwrote in
news:#d**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl:
Interviewer, "So what was your last job?"
Me, "Well I worked at a stone shop for a friend of mine working as an
operator/technician on some new equipment he just purchaced."
Interviewer, "So that was not programming?"
Me, "Well I developed some applications for the office in Excel and
Visio, VBA mostly."
Interviewer, "Well, tell you what I am going to do, I amgoing to kick
this upstairs and see if they want to continue the interview. Thank
you for your time."
I understand WHY employers are so nervous about hiring people. I may
be a hobbiest but I have a degree in a technical field and LOTS of
experiance (not to mention a good bit of CS theory classes). But I
need to find a better way to present myself to employers because what
I am doing now is just NOT working.
I would start building some serious applications on the side. Perhaps
shareware?
Also offer to send code of a complete working application to an employer
to
review?
Unfortunately since you've only done excel/visio/vba programming - it's
pretty much tinkering.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
RE:
Well, in the C# group I regularly see people coming from C++ who
write
horrible C# code because they try to apply low-level tricks they were
able
to use in C++.
Strongly agree
a C or Java background is WORTHLESS
America needs more people with a BUSINSS DEVELOPMENT CAPABILITY
Reportign and Data Entry-- anything else is a waste of time
On May 12, 5:25 am, "Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hirf-spam-me-
h...@gmx.atwrote:
Spam,
"Spam Catcher" <spamhoney...@rogers.comschrieb:
I like this sentence from the article.
80% of C# programmers are good, while 80% of VB programmers are not good.
This means that there are in fact confirm the writter much more good VB
programmers than C# programmers in absolute figurs.
I guess it's because VB is easier to pick up ... hence it attracts less
skilled developers.
I think it's important to clarify what "not good" means when talking about a
programmer. Most of the code written is simple automation code or simple
applications used indoor to perform certain operations. There is no need to
them being very performant, very secure, well-architectured, ... These
applications simply need to work in order to get some data processed.
However, I do not think people writing these applications are bad
programmers. They just do not have as strict requirements as developers of,
for example, libraries (which are reused several times) do.
I found this to be the case with classic VB developers who pick up VB.NET.
They assume VB.NET is the same as VB6 ... and they end up writing horrid
non-OO code.
Well, in the C# group I regularly see people coming from C++ who write
horrible C# code because they try to apply low-level tricks they were able
to use in C++.
--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/dotnet/faqs/>
you think that writing TSR applications is a good thing?
FUCK YOURSELF KID TSR = DEATH TO THE PROGRAMMER
On May 13, 2:05 am, "Nicholas M. Makin" <nmaximill...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Unfortunately since you've only done excel/visio/vba programming - it's
pretty much tinkering.
Unfortunately since you've only done excel/visio/vba programming - it's
pretty much tinkering.
lol - Lets see I started out programming on a Tandy CoCo II in BASIC around
1990. I then moved to COBOL, then Pascal, C/C++, then was obsessed with
assembly. In the Navy I used Perl and TCL/TK on HP-UX. This is also where I
was introduced to VBS and VBA. In school things were mostly Java, and
Mathematica, with a tincture of MatLab thrown in there from the engineering
classes.
When I say that I am a "hobbyist" programmer, I am NOT talking about a few
push button apps in VBA. I was writing TSR programs for MS-DOS before I
graduated high school. I wrote my first graphics library in C/Assembly then
too. The CS classes at the university were cake for me because I had been
tutoring the CS students at a local university when I was in high school.
Over 15 years of experience as a programmer does not equate to "only done
excel/visio/vba programming" and this is my problem, I am not able to convey
my experience and passion for programming. This, "it's pretty much
tinkering" thing comes across, not the 15 years worth of code in over 20
languages: I once programmed a BBS in SALT for TELIX -- remember that? I
wrote a great little mad-lib program in LISP. I have the bulk of my
mathematics research in mathematica and C++, I have school projects in Java.
I have an oscilloscope circuit analyzer written in VB using DirectX8. I have
about 100 different mathematical screen savers written in about 5 languages
(whatever I was "into" at the time).
How can anyone imagine 15 years of programming implies a few scripts in VBA?
lol, this is my frustration.
How did this thread end up on this topic anyway? :) Though I do appreciate
the comments. Finding a job has been frustrating me for months. I hope that
once I get a decent interview I will be able to convey my passion for what I
have dedicated my life to doing. Belive it or not I have had a good bit of
success as an actor and playwrite, something that I also love, but have
chosen to let slide because THIS is what I have always wanted to do.
This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics
by: Stephan Deibel |
last post by:
Hi,
O'Reilly Associates has agreed to print a second volume of Python
Success Stories and I am looking for contributors of new stories.
This booklet will showcase Python in the context of a...
|
by: Stephan Deibel |
last post by:
Hi,
I just wanted to let y'all know that the Python Success Stories
collection has nine new additions:
http://www.pythonology.com/success
These 28 stories include significant testimonials...
|
by: Stephan Deibel |
last post by:
Hi,
O'Reilly Associates is going to be printing volume III of the
Python Success Stories series in June and I'm looking for
submissions of new stories.
The stories have been quite valuable...
|
by: cmitchell |
last post by:
Hi,
I have daily backups set up for a database, however today i noticed in
the Journal under task history i see under the success column that the
status is expired. Normally the success column...
|
by: |
last post by:
hi
i try to malloc 2G size mem . so i wirte code like that.
it failt in freebsd 5.3 and win2k
what's bug in my code ? how can i change it ?
thank all :)
benjiam
|
by: Bilgehan.Balban |
last post by:
Hi,
Generally in my C code, I use the following convention to return
success or failure:
a) For functions that return a pointer, (allocation, filling-in a
structure etc.) return Null for all...
|
by: audipen |
last post by:
Hi,
I trap the 'OnBuildProjConfigDone' and perform some custom enhancement
to the assembly. I check the 'bool Success' parameter before I perform
my step. I go ahead only if 'Success == true"
...
|
by: A.M-SG |
last post by:
Hi,
We are developing a SmartClient application and we are planning to expose
business objects layer to SmartClient application by using ASP.NET SOAP web
services.
|
by: spam.noam |
last post by:
Hello,
What is the convention for writing C functions which don't return a
value, but can fail?
If I understand correctly,
1. PyArg_ParseTuple returns 0 on failure and 1 on success.
2....
|
by: yuchang |
last post by:
Hi,
Using the FormView control is very efficient. But I want to do some
action,like showing a success message or redirect to another page, after
inserting, updating and deleting. How do I get...
|
by: Charles Arthur |
last post by:
How do i turn on java script on a villaon, callus and itel keypad mobile phone
|
by: ryjfgjl |
last post by:
If we have dozens or hundreds of excel to import into the database, if we use the excel import function provided by database editors such as navicat, it will be extremely tedious and time-consuming...
|
by: ryjfgjl |
last post by:
In our work, we often receive Excel tables with data in the same format. If we want to analyze these data, it can be difficult to analyze them because the data is spread across multiple Excel files...
|
by: emmanuelkatto |
last post by:
Hi All, I am Emmanuel katto from Uganda. I want to ask what challenges you've faced while migrating a website to cloud.
Please let me know.
Thanks!
Emmanuel
|
by: nemocccc |
last post by:
hello, everyone, I want to develop a software for my android phone for daily needs, any suggestions?
|
by: Sonnysonu |
last post by:
This is the data of csv file
1 2 3
1 2 3
1 2 3
1 2 3
2 3
2 3
3
the lengths should be different i have to store the data by column-wise with in the specific length.
suppose the i have to...
|
by: Hystou |
last post by:
Most computers default to English, but sometimes we require a different language, especially when relocating. Forgot to request a specific language before your computer shipped? No problem! You can...
|
by: Hystou |
last post by:
Overview:
Windows 11 and 10 have less user interface control over operating system update behaviour than previous versions of Windows. In Windows 11 and 10, there is no way to turn off the Windows...
|
by: tracyyun |
last post by:
Dear forum friends,
With the development of smart home technology, a variety of wireless communication protocols have appeared on the market, such as Zigbee, Z-Wave, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc. Each...
| |
