Whats the right approach for getting a job

Hi Suraj,

2 weeks work is not going to get you in the door in a software
engineering job.
I would suggest reading about patterns and practices.
For example, when you are able to write example code demonstrating
implementations of "Factory", "Singleton" and "MVP" patterns AND you
understand why they are important, then I am sure you will increase
your hireability 10 fold.

Also, here's a quick interesting read:
http://msmvps.com/blogs/jon.skeet/ar...31/106368.aspx

Personally, I learnt .NET by writing applications for myself that did
something useful.
For example, I wrote my own book library software, that helps me fill
in the gaps of series, and work out which one's I've read. I've also
done lots of free work over the years while trying to build my skills.
And its worked for me.

Also maybe consider doing a small certificate from TAFE (do you have
TAFE outside of Australia? Its like a 'small' college where you can do
just a few subjects for a certificate).

SN

suraj wrote:

Hi All,

I am sorry if am cross posting but just wanted to get the right answer
for this. I have a experiece of 15 years yes i am a old man now. Most
of exp is in electrical field. After 15 years for various reasons i
want to swithc to Softwares.
After consulting many of my freinds who are already in this field i did
the following :-

-- Brought WROX C# book and did some practicals at my house. Built a
small project in ADO.NET . When i went for interview no body asked what
i can do practically rather they asked fundamentals like what is client
activated objects ?. How the damn i can know that. But i can code i can
make your software why the hell you are asking me theory

-- LOL After that i thought i should also be theortically strong so
started preparing from interview point of view. referred
www.questpond.com and http://techinterviews.com/ has around 1000
question with answers read it for one week . It did give some
advantage....But damn yesterday went for a interview the guys asked me
about some CMMI and project management stuff
My question is i can code i can do practicals..... But some one should
give me a break....Is Software industry all about theory will no on
consider what i can do ?.

What approach should i take which the book which will give me this
advantage
Sorry if i have disturbed any one.

Sep 26 '06 #2

Brennan Stehling

Changing industry to do the job of someone who has been doing it for
years is not something you can do after reading a book. It is just the
start. I know for certain I could not become a skilled mechanic or
chef after reading a book and spending a week to learn.

And with the software I would say it is just like becoming a good chef.
You have to get a sense of what your options are and what it takes to
make it work. A skilled chef will also pick up ideas from other chefs
through years of experience which can influence his/her approach. The
exact same thing happens on a team of software developers.

With your experience with electrical work, one niche you may find
worthwhile is BizTalk. The latest release is quite powerful and in
demand. It may also match up with your way of thinking as it is system
to essentially wire up applications. You may be comfortable in that
metaphor.

If you do want to continue learning, I suggest the following websites:

http://channel9.msdn.com/
http://www.learnvisualstudio.net/
http://dnrtv.com/
http://dotnetrocks.com/

Brennan Stehling
http://brennan.offwhite.net/blog/

suraj wrote:

Hi All,

I am sorry if am cross posting but just wanted to get the right answer
for this. I have a experiece of 15 years yes i am a old man now. Most
of exp is in electrical field. After 15 years for various reasons i
want to swithc to Softwares.
After consulting many of my freinds who are already in this field i did
the following :-

-- Brought WROX C# book and did some practicals at my house. Built a
small project in ADO.NET . When i went for interview no body asked what
i can do practically rather they asked fundamentals like what is client
activated objects ?. How the damn i can know that. But i can code i can
make your software why the hell you are asking me theory

-- LOL After that i thought i should also be theortically strong so
started preparing from interview point of view. referred
www.questpond.com and http://techinterviews.com/ has around 1000
question with answers read it for one week . It did give some
advantage....But damn yesterday went for a interview the guys asked me
about some CMMI and project management stuff
My question is i can code i can do practicals..... But some one should
give me a break....Is Software industry all about theory will no on
consider what i can do ?.

What approach should i take which the book which will give me this
advantage
Sorry if i have disturbed any one.

Sep 26 '06 #3

Suraj,

You are 15 years in this business? My experience is that phrases can change
in this business in about 2 months.

If the guy who is interviewing you does not understand what you know, than
in the way as you decribe yourself you are in my idea on the wrong place.
Learning words from your head will in my idea result that your lifetime at
that company will not take more than 2 weeks if you don't really know what
is behind those words.

A pragmatic person will never survive in a theoretical environment and visa
versa.

Be as well aware that some people can ask you theoretical questions just to
find out if you only know book facts and have no practical expirience. If
you than not say "I don't know it" or "I don't know it anymore" or something
like that, than you are in my idea direct in trouble.

In my idea you should try to tell the things in what you are strong.

Just my thought,

Cor
news:11**********************@e3g2000cwe.googlegro ups.com...

Hi All,

I am sorry if am cross posting but just wanted to get the right answer
for this. I have a experiece of 15 years yes i am a old man now. Most
of exp is in electrical field. After 15 years for various reasons i
want to swithc to Softwares.
After consulting many of my freinds who are already in this field i did
the following :-

-- Brought WROX C# book and did some practicals at my house. Built a
small project in ADO.NET . When i went for interview no body asked what
i can do practically rather they asked fundamentals like what is client
activated objects ?. How the damn i can know that. But i can code i can
make your software why the hell you are asking me theory

-- LOL After that i thought i should also be theortically strong so
started preparing from interview point of view. referred
www.questpond.com and http://techinterviews.com/ has around 1000
question with answers read it for one week . It did give some
advantage....But damn yesterday went for a interview the guys asked me
about some CMMI and project management stuff
My question is i can code i can do practicals..... But some one should
give me a break....Is Software industry all about theory will no on
consider what i can do ?.

What approach should i take which the book which will give me this
advantage
Sorry if i have disturbed any one.

Sep 26 '06 #4

Horace Nunley

what the heck are you talking about?

"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

Suraj,

You are 15 years in this business? My experience is that phrases can
change in this business in about 2 months.

If the guy who is interviewing you does not understand what you know, than
in the way as you decribe yourself you are in my idea on the wrong place.
Learning words from your head will in my idea result that your lifetime at
that company will not take more than 2 weeks if you don't really know what
is behind those words.

A pragmatic person will never survive in a theoretical environment and
visa versa.

Be as well aware that some people can ask you theoretical questions just
to find out if you only know book facts and have no practical expirience.
If you than not say "I don't know it" or "I don't know it anymore" or
something like that, than you are in my idea direct in trouble.

In my idea you should try to tell the things in what you are strong.

Just my thought,

Cor
news:11**********************@e3g2000cwe.googlegro ups.com...
>Hi All,

I am sorry if am cross posting but just wanted to get the right answer
for this. I have a experiece of 15 years yes i am a old man now. Most
of exp is in electrical field. After 15 years for various reasons i
want to swithc to Softwares.
After consulting many of my freinds who are already in this field i did
the following :-

-- Brought WROX C# book and did some practicals at my house. Built a
small project in ADO.NET . When i went for interview no body asked what
i can do practically rather they asked fundamentals like what is client
activated objects ?. How the damn i can know that. But i can code i can
make your software why the hell you are asking me theory

-- LOL After that i thought i should also be theortically strong so
started preparing from interview point of view. referred
www.questpond.com and http://techinterviews.com/ has around 1000
question with answers read it for one week . It did give some
advantage....But damn yesterday went for a interview the guys asked me
about some CMMI and project management stuff
My question is i can code i can do practicals..... But some one should
give me a break....Is Software industry all about theory will no on
consider what i can do ?.

What approach should i take which the book which will give me this
advantage
Sorry if i have disturbed any one.

Sep 26 '06 #5

I'm really trying to be polite but I often find Cor's answers very
confusing.
Its not because of his technical ability; I am sure he is very good at
what he does. But something is definately getting lost in the
translation.

Cor, what's your first language? Are you writing the English or using a
translator?

Sep 26 '06 #6

Daniel Crichton

Steven wrote on 25 Sep 2006 22:52:36 -0700:

I'm really trying to be polite but I often find Cor's answers very
confusing.
Its not because of his technical ability; I am sure he is very good at
what he does. But something is definately getting lost in the
translation.

Cor, what's your first language? Are you writing the English or using a
translator?

From his domain I'd say his first language is Dutch. I got the gist of his
email, but it does look like it might be computer translated.

And I agree with him - if someone turned up in my office for a job interview
spouting buzzwords and appearing to have just read a Wrox book, there's no
chance of a job. I'd be loathe to take someone on without at least a few
years commercial experience already. Software theory is all well and good,
but sometimes that theory has to be thrown out to meet deadlines, and no
amount of book reading will cover that sort of practice (I know it's a bad
thing to do, but sometimes there's really no choice, deadlines have to be
met and the code can always be tidied up later).

I once had a programmer turn up who decided that SQL Server was not
efficient enough and started writing his own database engine, and his
project overran by 3 months, the final result being a VB6 class that read
the SQL Server data into arrays (all the entire tables, even when they
weren't being used, and the row searching was done by recursing the arrays
from start to end, not even using a sort method!) and played with them in
memory, resulting in a horribly unscaleable application (he wasn't working
directly for me, so I wasn't involved till after the project "completion") -
suffice to say he was asked to leave the company after I'd reviewed his
code.

Dan

Sep 26 '06 #7

Jon Skeet [C# MVP]

Daniel Crichton <ms****@worldofspack.comwrote:

And I agree with him - if someone turned up in my office for a job interview
spouting buzzwords and appearing to have just read a Wrox book, there's no
chance of a job. I'd be loathe to take someone on without at least a few
years commercial experience already. Software theory is all well and good,
but sometimes that theory has to be thrown out to meet deadlines, and no
amount of book reading will cover that sort of practice (I know it's a bad
thing to do, but sometimes there's really no choice, deadlines have to be
met and the code can always be tidied up later).

I sort of agree, and sort of disagree. A few things:

1) Saying "I don't know" to a question in an interview wouldn't be a
deal-breaker, but pretending to know about something you don't would.
With so many technologies around, it's fine not to have worked on one
so long as you're honest about it, in my view.

2) Experience is certainly useful, but I'd generally have someone
bright but inexperienced than someone who's been plodding along for 15
years and still can't code his way out of a paper bag - particularly
for permanent jobs. With short-term contractors I'd try to get someone
with the right experience and not worry too much about a "spark", but
if you can hire a recent graduate who's bright and enthusiastic,
they're likely to make up ground quickly anyway, and be a more valuable
asset to the company when they've done so.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

Sep 26 '06 #8

rowe_newsgroups

Sorry for jumping in and asking my own questions, but I'm sort of in
the same boat as soraj.

Anyways, what are some resources that you all recommend for the theory
and project management side of the industry? Besides OOP, I am having a
difficult time finding out about the other programming theories that
are out there.

Also, from an employer's point of view, how much difference does it
make if a candidate is Microsoft certified or not?

Mainly, how do you make the jump from the "average" programmer that has
difficulties getting interviews to one that is actively recruited by
software firms?

Thanks,

Seth Rowe

Jon wrote:

Daniel Crichton <ms****@worldofspack.comwrote:
And I agree with him - if someone turned up in my office for a job interview
spouting buzzwords and appearing to have just read a Wrox book, there's no
chance of a job. I'd be loathe to take someone on without at least a few
years commercial experience already. Software theory is all well and good,
but sometimes that theory has to be thrown out to meet deadlines, and no
amount of book reading will cover that sort of practice (I know it's a bad
thing to do, but sometimes there's really no choice, deadlines have to be
met and the code can always be tidied up later).

I sort of agree, and sort of disagree. A few things:

1) Saying "I don't know" to a question in an interview wouldn't be a
deal-breaker, but pretending to know about something you don't would.
With so many technologies around, it's fine not to have worked on one
so long as you're honest about it, in my view.

2) Experience is certainly useful, but I'd generally have someone
bright but inexperienced than someone who's been plodding along for 15
years and still can't code his way out of a paper bag - particularly
for permanent jobs. With short-term contractors I'd try to get someone
with the right experience and not worry too much about a "spark", but
if you can hire a recent graduate who's bright and enthusiastic,
they're likely to make up ground quickly anyway, and be a more valuable
asset to the company when they've done so.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

Sep 26 '06 #9

Daniel Crichton

Jon wrote on Tue, 26 Sep 2006 12:11:14 +0100:

Daniel Crichton <ms****@worldofspack.comwrote:
>And I agree with him - if someone turned up in my office for a job
interview spouting buzzwords and appearing to have just read a Wrox book,
there's no chance of a job. I'd be loathe to take someone on without at
least a few years commercial experience already. Software theory is all
well and good, but sometimes that theory has to be thrown out to meet
deadlines, and no amount of book reading will cover that sort of practice
(I know it's a bad thing to do, but sometimes there's really no choice,
deadlines have to be met and the code can always be tidied up later).

I sort of agree, and sort of disagree. A few things:

1) Saying "I don't know" to a question in an interview wouldn't be a
deal-breaker, but pretending to know about something you don't would.
With so many technologies around, it's fine not to have worked on one
so long as you're honest about it, in my view.

Good point, I agree with this. Honesty about not knowing things, and an
interest in learning what you don't know, is much better than some crash
course in subjects related to the job that you'll forget in 2 days.

2) Experience is certainly useful, but I'd generally have someone
bright but inexperienced than someone who's been plodding along for 15
years and still can't code his way out of a paper bag - particularly
for permanent jobs. With short-term contractors I'd try to get someone
with the right experience and not worry too much about a "spark", but
if you can hire a recent graduate who's bright and enthusiastic,
they're likely to make up ground quickly anyway, and be a more valuable
asset to the company when they've done so.

And again, I agree. I guess I should have put some qualification in my reply
that I'd take practical experience over a crash course, but I'd be prepared
to give someone who seems to know what they're doing a chance.

Dan

Sep 26 '06 #10

Daniel Crichton

rowe_newsgroups wrote on 26 Sep 2006 05:24:05 -0700:

Anyways, what are some resources that you all recommend for the theory
and project management side of the industry? Besides OOP, I am having a
difficult time finding out about the other programming theories that
are out there.

No idea, project management is one of those things I left behind in the
Aerospace industry. I have a bad habit of not planning anything here in
advance, mainly caused by management coming up with changes on one day that
"absolutely must be in place by tomorrow!". Applications here evolve
organically, then get a trimming later when the requirements have been
finalised.

Also, from an employer's point of view, how much difference does it
make if a candidate is Microsoft certified or not?

If you'd asked me that a few years ago, I'd have said I'd certainly consider
the MS certification as a plus. However, I think it's been devalued badly in
the past couple of years to the point that almost anyone can get an MCP just
by clicking the answers that put MS in a good light. MCSD might be harder to
achieve, but I still personally wouldn't consider it over good recent
practical commercial experience.

Mainly, how do you make the jump from the "average" programmer that has
difficulties getting interviews to one that is actively recruited by
software firms?

Can't help you here - I'm not at a software firm, so no idea what the
requirements would be. I work in e-commerce retail, although 50% of the
programming is actually interfacing with third party systems (suppliers
mainly) which ends up being small modifications every month to handle little
changes in their systems. Most of the programming is pretty basic, and
easily managed with simple procedural programming - slapping a load of OOP
in here would increase project times horrendously. That's one reason why I'd
be wary of taking on another Comp Sci graduate - too much theory, not enough
real world application. I myself took Mech Eng which included lot of
practical programming courses.

Dan

Sep 26 '06 #11

Daniel Crichton wrote:

>
If you'd asked me that a few years ago, I'd have said I'd certainly consider
the MS certification as a plus. However, I think it's been devalued badly in
the past couple of years to the point that almost anyone can get an MCP just
by clicking the answers that put MS in a good light. MCSD might be harder to
achieve, but I still personally wouldn't consider it over good recent
practical commercial experience.

I agree completely with this point, but there are still many employers
out there that consider an MS cert to be a must-have. I went after the
MCSE back in 1992, when it meant something, but I would never put the
time/expense into it today. I got my MCDBA last August, but only
because it fulfilled a "personal growth" goal for my employer. I don't
feel that I gained a thing by doing it, the exams didn't cover any "real
world" situations, and after 10 years, I still find myself learning new
things about SQL Server.

--
Tracy McKibben
MCDBA
http://www.realsqlguy.com

Sep 26 '06 #12

rowe_newsgroups

So outside of having x number of years of experience how do candidates
"prove" themselves to employers?

Thanks,

Seth Rowe

Tracy McKibben wrote:

Daniel Crichton wrote:

If you'd asked me that a few years ago, I'd have said I'd certainly consider
the MS certification as a plus. However, I think it's been devalued badly in
the past couple of years to the point that almost anyone can get an MCP just
by clicking the answers that put MS in a good light. MCSD might be harder to
achieve, but I still personally wouldn't consider it over good recent
practical commercial experience.

I agree completely with this point, but there are still many employers
out there that consider an MS cert to be a must-have. I went after the
MCSE back in 1992, when it meant something, but I would never put the
time/expense into it today. I got my MCDBA last August, but only
because it fulfilled a "personal growth" goal for my employer. I don't
feel that I gained a thing by doing it, the exams didn't cover any "real
world" situations, and after 10 years, I still find myself learning new
things about SQL Server.

--
Tracy McKibben
MCDBA
http://www.realsqlguy.com

Sep 26 '06 #13

Jon Skeet [C# MVP]

Tracy McKibben <tr***@realsqlguy.comwrote:

If you'd asked me that a few years ago, I'd have said I'd certainly consider
the MS certification as a plus. However, I think it's been devalued badly in
the past couple of years to the point that almost anyone can get an MCP just
by clicking the answers that put MS in a good light. MCSD might be harder to
achieve, but I still personally wouldn't consider it over good recent
practical commercial experience.

I agree completely with this point, but there are still many employers
out there that consider an MS cert to be a must-have. I went after the
MCSE back in 1992, when it meant something, but I would never put the
time/expense into it today. I got my MCDBA last August, but only
because it fulfilled a "personal growth" goal for my employer. I don't
feel that I gained a thing by doing it, the exams didn't cover any "real
world" situations, and after 10 years, I still find myself learning new
things about SQL Server.

I would be concerned that any employer who regarded MS certification as
a must-have would probably be obsessed by process and red tape in the
first place.

I'm not MS certified, and have no plans to change that.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

Sep 26 '06 #14

rowe_newsgroups wrote:

So outside of having x number of years of experience how do candidates
"prove" themselves to employers?

That depends on what the prospective employer is looking for as "proof".
As Jon said, any employer who relies on certifications will probably
be a frustrating place to work, you'll likely find yourself surrounded
by buzzwords and ridiculous processes that don't accomplish much.

Experience is key, but competency will go a long way. Being able to
articulate your knowledge, understanding the tools that you'll use to do
the job you're applying for, presenting yourself as someone who is
intelligent, willing to learn, and also able to COMMUNICATE will be of
tremendous value. If you're going in to a SQL Server interview, and the
interviewer asks you how you'd add a column to a table, don't respond
with "I'd right-click on the table".

--
Tracy McKibben
MCDBA
http://www.realsqlguy.com

Sep 26 '06 #15

kgerritsen

Hi Suraj,

For the actual interview, be prepared for two different interview
styles. If your interviewer is a senior developer, be prepared for
code examples and discussing theoretical and technology-specific
details. If you are unfamiliar with a specific technology (for some
jobs this would be a deal-breaker) shift the question to a technology
you know well. I hardly used VB before my current job, but I addressed
my interview questions in C#, which worked out fine.

If your interviewer is a project manager or higher level manager,
consider it an opportunity to shine because this person most likely
controls the budget. As soon in the interview as you get the
opportunity, ask them what defines project success in their shop. Ask
if they've had a failed (or non-ideal) project in the past, and why
they think it failed. Keep in mind that the top-level answer may be
"politically correct"; engage in a discussion (almost case-study style)
to draw out the details. Say the project was on time and on budget but
failed because not enough users use it. Prod for more: does this
reflect incomplete understanding of business requirements;
non-functional requirements issues such as lag times, unfriendly user
interface, etc.; poor rollout and training; an actual misunderstanding
- the application is in fact being used but the benefits are not
obvious (management had unrealistic expectations; baseline end-user
productivity may not have been correctly captured); or
political/organizational resistance within the organization? There's a
specific mindset to application development that could address these
project failure modes; demonstrate the one the manager is looking for.
If you can compare the failure mode to experience in your work history,
great. For the rest of the interview with this individual, frame
yourself, your skills, and your mindset to address the PM's specific
history and concerns. I wouldn't lay it on too thick; and if you can't
figure out a way for yourself to address this need, you wouldn't be
happy working with this shop. If the PM has confidence that you
understand their position, and that you can identify the systemic
issues in their shop, and you can demonstrate familiarity with the
language and technology used, you're probably golden.

Sep 26 '06 #16

Horace,

Can you tell me what you mean with that message.

what the heck are you talking about?

Otherwise look at the replies, with the exception from Steven, who seems to
find it funny to start his own war against me in some threads.

Cor

>
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nlwrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>Suraj,

You are 15 years in this business? My experience is that phrases can
change in this business in about 2 months.

If the guy who is interviewing you does not understand what you know,
than in the way as you decribe yourself you are in my idea on the wrong
place. Learning words from your head will in my idea result that your
lifetime at that company will not take more than 2 weeks if you don't
really know what is behind those words.

A pragmatic person will never survive in a theoretical environment and
visa versa.

Be as well aware that some people can ask you theoretical questions just
to find out if you only know book facts and have no practical expirience.
If you than not say "I don't know it" or "I don't know it anymore" or
something like that, than you are in my idea direct in trouble.

In my idea you should try to tell the things in what you are strong.

Just my thought,

Cor
news:11**********************@e3g2000cwe.googlegr oups.com...
>>Hi All,

I am sorry if am cross posting but just wanted to get the right answer
for this. I have a experiece of 15 years yes i am a old man now. Most
of exp is in electrical field. After 15 years for various reasons i
want to swithc to Softwares.
After consulting many of my freinds who are already in this field i did
the following :-

-- Brought WROX C# book and did some practicals at my house. Built a
small project in ADO.NET . When i went for interview no body asked what
i can do practically rather they asked fundamentals like what is client
activated objects ?. How the damn i can know that. But i can code i can
make your software why the hell you are asking me theory

-- LOL After that i thought i should also be theortically strong so
started preparing from interview point of view. referred
www.questpond.com and http://techinterviews.com/ has around 1000
question with answers read it for one week . It did give some
advantage....But damn yesterday went for a interview the guys asked me
about some CMMI and project management stuff
My question is i can code i can do practicals..... But some one should
give me a break....Is Software industry all about theory will no on
consider what i can do ?.

What approach should i take which the book which will give me this
advantage
Sorry if i have disturbed any one.

Sep 26 '06 #17

Daniel,

There is no spellchecker or whatever used; it has been quickly written in
the early morning. For the rest is your reflection from what I wanted to say
excellent.

Cor

"Daniel Crichton" <ms****@worldofspack.comschreef in bericht
news:eL**************@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

Steven wrote on 25 Sep 2006 22:52:36 -0700:

>I'm really trying to be polite but I often find Cor's answers very
confusing.
Its not because of his technical ability; I am sure he is very good at
what he does. But something is definately getting lost in the
translation.

Cor, what's your first language? Are you writing the English or using a
translator?

From his domain I'd say his first language is Dutch. I got the gist of his
email, but it does look like it might be computer translated.

And I agree with him - if someone turned up in my office for a job
interview spouting buzzwords and appearing to have just read a Wrox book,
there's no chance of a job. I'd be loathe to take someone on without at
least a few years commercial experience already. Software theory is all
well and good, but sometimes that theory has to be thrown out to meet
deadlines, and no amount of book reading will cover that sort of practice
(I know it's a bad thing to do, but sometimes there's really no choice,
deadlines have to be met and the code can always be tidied up later).

I once had a programmer turn up who decided that SQL Server was not
efficient enough and started writing his own database engine, and his
project overran by 3 months, the final result being a VB6 class that read
the SQL Server data into arrays (all the entire tables, even when they
weren't being used, and the row searching was done by recursing the arrays
from start to end, not even using a sort method!) and played with them in
memory, resulting in a horribly unscaleable application (he wasn't working
directly for me, so I wasn't involved till after the project
"completion") - suffice to say he was asked to leave the company after I'd
reviewed his code.

Dan

Sep 26 '06 #18

Noah Sham

Suraj and other career changers,

The simple fact is that without experience or a university degree your are
not 'qualified'. Reading a book or memorizing interview questions is not
going to change this fact. Now, this may or may not matter based on the
employment market you are in. If the employment market has large number of
qualified candidates then you will not have much luck. On the other hand,
if there are a large number of jobs and few qualified candidates then a
employer may be willing to hire unqualified candidates.

One way to obtain experience is to reduce your salary requirements vis-a-vis
a qualified candidate. You might consider posting salary requirements on
your CV that are 50-60% of the salary a qualified entry-level candidate
could expect to receive in your employment market.

Good Luck

"suraj" <su*************@yahoo.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@e3g2000cwe.googlegro ups.com...

Hi All,

I am sorry if am cross posting but just wanted to get the right answer
for this. I have a experiece of 15 years yes i am a old man now. Most
of exp is in electrical field. After 15 years for various reasons i
want to swithc to Softwares.
After consulting many of my freinds who are already in this field i did
the following :-

-- Brought WROX C# book and did some practicals at my house. Built a
small project in ADO.NET . When i went for interview no body asked what
i can do practically rather they asked fundamentals like what is client
activated objects ?. How the damn i can know that. But i can code i can
make your software why the hell you are asking me theory

-- LOL After that i thought i should also be theortically strong so
started preparing from interview point of view. referred
www.questpond.com and http://techinterviews.com/ has around 1000
question with answers read it for one week . It did give some
advantage....But damn yesterday went for a interview the guys asked me
about some CMMI and project management stuff
My question is i can code i can do practicals..... But some one should
give me a break....Is Software industry all about theory will no on
consider what i can do ?.

What approach should i take which the book which will give me this
advantage
Sorry if i have disturbed any one.

Sep 26 '06 #19

GhostInAK

Hello Jon Skeet [C# MVP],

Amen, Jon.

I've been asked to get MS certs in the past and I flat refuse. It's not
hampered my ability to find work in the least. I find that my work experience
speaks for itsself.
"We need an MS cert and a CS degree. Oh, you don't have those.. You have
no certs and a high school GED.. but you do have nearly a decade of progressive
work experience. Good enough for us." I can pretty much name my salary
and benefits package at any company I choose to work for.

-Boo

Tracy McKibben <tr***@realsqlguy.comwrote:

>>If you'd asked me that a few years ago, I'd have said I'd certainly
consider the MS certification as a plus. However, I think it's been
devalued badly in the past couple of years to the point that almost
anyone can get an MCP just by clicking the answers that put MS in a
good light. MCSD might be harder to achieve, but I still personally
wouldn't consider it over good recent practical commercial
experience.

I agree completely with this point, but there are still many
employers out there that consider an MS cert to be a must-have. I
went after the MCSE back in 1992, when it meant something, but I
would never put the time/expense into it today. I got my MCDBA last
August, but only because it fulfilled a "personal growth" goal for my
employer. I don't feel that I gained a thing by doing it, the exams
didn't cover any "real world" situations, and after 10 years, I still
find myself learning new things about SQL Server.

I would be concerned that any employer who regarded MS certification
as a must-have would probably be obsessed by process and red tape in
the first place.

I'm not MS certified, and have no plans to change that.

Sep 26 '06 #20

Mark Rae

"Jon Skeet [C# MVP]" <sk***@pobox.comwrote in message
news:MP************************@msnews.microsoft.c om...

>I agree completely with this point, but there are still many employers
out there that consider an MS cert to be a must-have. I went after the
MCSE back in 1992, when it meant something, but I would never put the
time/expense into it today. I got my MCDBA last August, but only
because it fulfilled a "personal growth" goal for my employer. I don't
feel that I gained a thing by doing it, the exams didn't cover any "real
world" situations, and after 10 years, I still find myself learning new
things about SQL Server.

I couldn't agree more! We've had this discussion before, but I have not
changed my opinion that Microsoft Certification is a total and utter waste
of time and money.

I would be concerned that any employer who regarded MS certification as
a must-have would probably be obsessed by process and red tape in the
first place.

Quite - it's just ignorance.

I'm not MS certified, and have no plans to change that.

Likewise.

Sep 26 '06 #21

Sorry Cor, I had no intention to insult or start any sort of war.
I do find your language confusing sometimes; its the honest truth.
I was just wondering on your first language and if you were using a
translation engine to communicate on this newsgroup.

Cheers.

Sep 26 '06 #22

Hugo Kornelis

On 25 Sep 2006 21:29:05 -0700, suraj wrote:

>My question is i can code i can do practicals..... But some one should
give me a break....Is Software industry all about theory will no on
consider what i can do ?.

What approach should i take which the book which will give me this
advantage
Sorry if i have disturbed any one.

Hi Suraj,

I don't think there's a single answer to what "Software Industry" is
looking for. I hope that they are looking for a blend of sound
understanding of coding fundamentals, real-world coding skills,
communication skills, and a grasp of what customers really want (even if
they're unable to express it properly).

And you're probably not going to like this, but I really hope that they
won't hire people who think that reading one or two books and doing a
hobby project on a home computer is ample preparation for a job in the
software industry.

How would you feel if you heard that the surgeon about to perform
surgery on you was hired after reading the medical encyclopedia and
attempting surgery on a frog he found in the back yard?

How would you feel if you found out that your stock advisor was hired
after reading some books aboout the stoock market and making a big
splash on his personal investments?

How would you feel if you found out that the security staff of the local
nuclear plant was hired after reading foour books about nuclear energy
and two weeks of practice watching the gauges of their microwave oven?

How would you feel if you're in a cab and the cab driver turns out to be
hired after ... oh, wait, I think I've been in cabs like that <g>

The software industry is a serious industry. Mistakes always cost major
amounts of money; they can also hurt or even kill people. I really hope
that this industry is by now mature enough to NOT hire cowboys coders
who want to make a quick buck after reading a book or two - even if this
goes at the expense of the truly brilliant minds who would really be
able to do everything they need to do after such a preparation.

--
Hugo Kornelis, SQL Server MVP

Sep 26 '06 #23

I would be concerned that any employer who regarded MS certification as
a must-have would probably be obsessed by process and red tape in the
first place.

You have to look at the bottom end of the scale as well. I know people
who have only 12 months real experience who are way better developers
than the long termers.
For those people, certification helps them show that their skills are
actually quite good.

Also, if you are new and trying to work out where you fit in to the
pecking order, doing the certification helps you discover more about
your own skills. For the OP, he would know that if he was skilled
enough to pass the cert. exams, then he should definately be good
enough to gain entry into the SE industry.

Having said that, I agree that for an employer to demand a
certification is probably ridiculous, and you probably wouldn't want to
work there. But as you pointed out on your blog, its more the HR people
who have no actual technical knowledge that need a way to process
applicants. Its easy for them to progress those with cert.

I'm not MS certified, and have no plans to change that.

What about Java? Does Java have certs as well?

Sep 27 '06 #24

Steven,

A decent person interested in that would use in such a situation email.

Therefore try to use a translation engine for your Aussies, although your
last message is readable for me, can I not say that with your other
messages. I have seldom any problem with messages from all over the world
and those can be written in many languages but your messages are mostly
unreadable for me. (As the message you start with in this thread).

Cor

"Steven Nagy" <le*********@hotmail.comschreef in bericht
news:11*********************@m7g2000cwm.googlegrou ps.com...

Sorry Cor, I had no intention to insult or start any sort of war.
I do find your language confusing sometimes; its the honest truth.
I was just wondering on your first language and if you were using a
translation engine to communicate on this newsgroup.

Cheers.

Sep 27 '06 #25

Cor,

A decent person interested in that would use in such a situation email.

Then why didn't you respond to me by email?

Therefore try to use a translation engine for your Aussies

I think what you ment to say was:
"Therefore, try to use a translation engine for your English"
(because thats the language we speak, you see)

>, although your
last message is readable for me, can I not say that with your other
messages. I have seldom any problem with messages from all over the world
and those can be written in many languages but your messages are mostly
unreadable for me. (As the message you start with in this thread).

Please let me know what you didn't understand in my first posting and I
would be more than happy to explain it to you.

Look Cor, if you want to maintain this hostility with me, thats fine,
and I can take it.
I wish you best of luck and hope that you keep practising your english
in these newsgroups because it will definately help you improve it.

Cheers,
Steven

Sep 27 '06 #26

Juan T. Llibre

OK, guys, cool down.

;-)

Juan T. Llibre, asp.net MVP
aspnetfaq.com : http://www.aspnetfaq.com/
asp.net faq : http://asp.net.do/faq/
foros de asp.net, en español : http://asp.net.do/foros/
===================================
"Steven Nagy" <le*********@hotmail.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@e3g2000cwe.googlegro ups.com...

Cor,

>A decent person interested in that would use in such a situation email.

Then why didn't you respond to me by email?

>Therefore try to use a translation engine for your Aussies

I think what you ment to say was:
"Therefore, try to use a translation engine for your English"
(because thats the language we speak, you see)

>>, although your
last message is readable for me, can I not say that with your other
messages. I have seldom any problem with messages from all over the world
and those can be written in many languages but your messages are mostly
unreadable for me. (As the message you start with in this thread).

Please let me know what you didn't understand in my first posting and I
would be more than happy to explain it to you.

Look Cor, if you want to maintain this hostility with me, thats fine,
and I can take it.
I wish you best of luck and hope that you keep practising your english
in these newsgroups because it will definately help you improve it.

Cheers,
Steven

Sep 27 '06 #27

Mark Rae

"Steven Nagy" <le*********@hotmail.comwrote in message
news:11**********************@d34g2000cwd.googlegr oups.com...

You have to look at the bottom end of the scale as well. I know people
who have only 12 months real experience who are way better developers
than the long termers.
For those people, certification helps them show that their skills are
actually quite good.

No it doesn't - all it shows is that they are capable of remembering a bunch
of pointless facts for a few hours. It doesn't demonstrate any practical
knowledge or experience...

Also, if you are new and trying to work out where you fit in to the
pecking order, doing the certification helps you discover more about
your own skills. For the OP, he would know that if he was skilled
enough to pass the cert. exams, then he should definately be good
enough to gain entry into the SE industry.

That just isn't true. Being able to pass the (Microsoft) certificates
doesn't demonstrate any practical knowledge whatsoever - it just shows that
you can remember a load of facts for a few hours... Have you ever seen any
of the Transcender stuff which "guides" people through Microsoft
certification? Most of it is geared to showing which questions come up most
often and what the answers are...

Sep 27 '06 #28

Jon Skeet [C# MVP]

Steven Nagy <le*********@hotmail.comwrote:

I would be concerned that any employer who regarded MS certification as
a must-have would probably be obsessed by process and red tape in the
first place.

You have to look at the bottom end of the scale as well. I know people
who have only 12 months real experience who are way better developers
than the long termers.
For those people, certification helps them show that their skills are
actually quite good.

I don't think so - it shows that they're good at exams, and learning
things by rote. That doesn't have much relevance to actual software
engineering.

Also, if you are new and trying to work out where you fit in to the
pecking order, doing the certification helps you discover more about
your own skills. For the OP, he would know that if he was skilled
enough to pass the cert. exams, then he should definately be good
enough to gain entry into the SE industry.

Again, I disagree.

Personally, I'd much rather see someone spend the same amount of time
on an open source project - whether their own, or helping with an
existing one. That has two benefits:

1) It's helping the real world
2) As an employer, I can see what kind of code you write, what design
decisions you make, what you care about.

Having said that, I agree that for an employer to demand a
certification is probably ridiculous, and you probably wouldn't want to
work there. But as you pointed out on your blog, its more the HR people
who have no actual technical knowledge that need a way to process
applicants. Its easy for them to progress those with cert.

So the difficulty is getting your CV into the right hands. I don't
believe that's an insurmountable challenge.

I'm not MS certified, and have no plans to change that.

What about Java? Does Java have certs as well?

Yes it does - and again, I'm not certified and have no plan to become
certified.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.com>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet Blog: http://www.msmvps.com/jon.skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too

Sep 27 '06 #29

Steven Nagy wrote:

>
You have to look at the bottom end of the scale as well. I know people
who have only 12 months real experience who are way better developers
than the long termers.
For those people, certification helps them show that their skills are
actually quite good.

I'll have to disagree on this one. On the DBA exams that I took, the
"correct" answer to many of the questions was the answer that involved
using one of the many wizards to perform a task. Stuff like "What's the
best way to set up log shipping?" - I've setup log shipping multiple
times using homegrown scripts, but the exam wants you to use the log
shipping wizard. I had never seen that wizard, but I knew it existed,
and I knew that would be the answer they were looking for. Passing
these Microsoft exams, at least the older ones, often boils down to
knowing the "Microsoft" answer to the question, not necessarily the
"right" answer.
--
Tracy McKibben
MCDBA
http://www.realsqlguy.com

Sep 27 '06 #30

Tracy McKibben wrote:

Steven Nagy wrote:
>>
You have to look at the bottom end of the scale as well. I know people
who have only 12 months real experience who are way better developers
than the long termers.
For those people, certification helps them show that their skills are
actually quite good.

I'll have to disagree on this one. On the DBA exams that I took, the
"correct" answer to many of the questions was the answer that involved
using one of the many wizards to perform a task. Stuff like "What's the
best way to set up log shipping?" - I've setup log shipping multiple
times using homegrown scripts, but the exam wants you to use the log
shipping wizard. I had never seen that wizard, but I knew it existed,
and I knew that would be the answer they were looking for. Passing
these Microsoft exams, at least the older ones, often boils down to
knowing the "Microsoft" answer to the question, not necessarily the
"right" answer.

Sorry for the self-reply, but I forgot to include something... Last
week, a friend of mine, also a DBA, interviewed for a job with a large
healthcare company, to be part of a team of DBA's. He was being grilled
by four of the existing DBA's, one of whom was some sort of team lead.
This team lead asked him what's the best way to transfer a database from
one server to another. My friend replied that if the database could be
taken offline for a few minutes, he would do a detach/reattach.
Otherwise he would do a backup/restore.

The team lead looked dumbfounded, and asked him why he wouldn't use the
Copy Database Wizard, because "he uses it all the time".
--
Tracy McKibben
MCDBA
http://www.realsqlguy.com

Sep 27 '06 #31

SQL Menace

The problem with those damn wizards is that you can not do everything
that you can do with T-SQL, for example try adding a CASE statement in
a view that you are creating with a wizard. Also I don't like the way
the wizard puts the JOIN at the end of the line

SELECT *
FROM Orders o INNER JOIN
[Order Details] od ON od.OrderID = o.OrderID

I like them at the beginning

SELECT *
FROM Orders o
INNER JOIN [Order Details] od ON od.OrderID = o.OrderID
Denis the SQL Menace
http://sqlservercode.blogspot.com/

Tracy McKibben wrote:

Steven Nagy wrote:

You have to look at the bottom end of the scale as well. I know people
who have only 12 months real experience who are way better developers
than the long termers.
For those people, certification helps them show that their skills are
actually quite good.

I'll have to disagree on this one. On the DBA exams that I took, the
"correct" answer to many of the questions was the answer that involved
using one of the many wizards to perform a task. Stuff like "What's the
best way to set up log shipping?" - I've setup log shipping multiple
times using homegrown scripts, but the exam wants you to use the log
shipping wizard. I had never seen that wizard, but I knew it existed,
and I knew that would be the answer they were looking for. Passing
these Microsoft exams, at least the older ones, often boils down to
knowing the "Microsoft" answer to the question, not necessarily the
"right" answer.
--
Tracy McKibben
MCDBA
http://www.realsqlguy.com

Sep 27 '06 #32

Miro

I think I agree with you Tracy.

The exams at school ( and this goes back to 96-99 ) - if they were multiple
choice were in my opinion, silly.
The answers to the questions were what Microsoft deemed the right answer.

Long story short.
Out of 75 people who started, only 22 or so passed the 3rd year. Everyone
else got weeded out year 1 and 2 and mid year of 3.
The book worms who memorized the books and got 90's on those tests, were
mostly weeded out by second and 3rd year during the final projects. - Where
books dont matter and its the "street smarts" you need in programming to get
something working.

Wizards are there to help you, but they should be looked at what happens.
Otherwise you have no "extra" knowledge on how things work than the
receptionist out front answering phones. Anyone can run a wizard.

Miro
"Tracy McKibben" <tr***@realsqlguy.comwrote in message
news:45**************@realsqlguy.com...

Tracy McKibben wrote:
>Steven Nagy wrote:
>>>
You have to look at the bottom end of the scale as well. I know people
who have only 12 months real experience who are way better developers
than the long termers.
For those people, certification helps them show that their skills are
actually quite good.

I'll have to disagree on this one. On the DBA exams that I took, the
"correct" answer to many of the questions was the answer that involved
using one of the many wizards to perform a task. Stuff like "What's the
best way to set up log shipping?" - I've setup log shipping multiple
times using homegrown scripts, but the exam wants you to use the log
shipping wizard. I had never seen that wizard, but I knew it existed,
and I knew that would be the answer they were looking for. Passing these
Microsoft exams, at least the older ones, often boils down to knowing the
"Microsoft" answer to the question, not necessarily the "right" answer.

Sorry for the self-reply, but I forgot to include something... Last week,
a friend of mine, also a DBA, interviewed for a job with a large
healthcare company, to be part of a team of DBA's. He was being grilled
by four of the existing DBA's, one of whom was some sort of team lead.
This team lead asked him what's the best way to transfer a database from
one server to another. My friend replied that if the database could be
taken offline for a few minutes, he would do a detach/reattach. Otherwise
he would do a backup/restore.

The team lead looked dumbfounded, and asked him why he wouldn't use the
Copy Database Wizard, because "he uses it all the time".
--
Tracy McKibben
MCDBA
http://www.realsqlguy.com

Sep 27 '06 #33

Tom Cooper

Right. I don't have any trouble with wizards if they always worked
correctly and did what you wanted. The problem is, at least in most cases,
they're not there yet. So I mostly don't use them (yet!). Hopefully they
will get there. When I started programming (late 1960's), ppeople still
wrote their own data I/O routines (down to and including handling the
hardware interupts from the disk subsystem) for projects because it was
feasible to write something that was faster than any available DBMS system.
No one would do this today (I hope!), because RDBMS systems are so good.

So, when you have examined what a particular wizard does and how it does it,
and you believe it does an adequate job of what you want to do and it is
easier and/or less error prone to do it with the wizard, use the wizard.
But use T-SQL for everything else.

I also agree the certifications don't mean much except to some people they
look nice on a resume. I do, however, put prospective employees down in
front of a computer that has a simple database, give them a data model and
tell them to write a stored proc to accomplish a task I give them. If they
can do that, including documentation and error handling, with nothing
available to them except BOL, great. If they can't, or the code works, but
is unreadable or unmaintainable, they aren't going to be working for me.

Tom

"SQL Menace" <de********@gmail.comwrote in message
news:11*********************@k70g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...

The problem with those damn wizards is that you can not do everything
that you can do with T-SQL, for example try adding a CASE statement in
a view that you are creating with a wizard. Also I don't like the way
the wizard puts the JOIN at the end of the line

SELECT *
FROM Orders o INNER JOIN
[Order Details] od ON od.OrderID = o.OrderID

I like them at the beginning

SELECT *
FROM Orders o
INNER JOIN [Order Details] od ON od.OrderID = o.OrderID
Denis the SQL Menace
http://sqlservercode.blogspot.com/

Tracy McKibben wrote:
>Steven Nagy wrote:
>
You have to look at the bottom end of the scale as well. I know people
who have only 12 months real experience who are way better developers
than the long termers.
For those people, certification helps them show that their skills are
actually quite good.

I'll have to disagree on this one. On the DBA exams that I took, the
"correct" answer to many of the questions was the answer that involved
using one of the many wizards to perform a task. Stuff like "What's the
best way to set up log shipping?" - I've setup log shipping multiple
times using homegrown scripts, but the exam wants you to use the log
shipping wizard. I had never seen that wizard, but I knew it existed,
and I knew that would be the answer they were looking for. Passing
these Microsoft exams, at least the older ones, often boils down to
knowing the "Microsoft" answer to the question, not necessarily the
"right" answer.
--
Tracy McKibben
MCDBA
http://www.realsqlguy.com

Sep 27 '06 #34

Colin Dawson

If it's any help, I'm currently looking for someone to worth with as a SQL
Programmer, at my company. This should give some people an idea of one
process for hiring, and the goals that need to be achieved to get the job.
Incidentally, it's the post hasn't been filled yet.

The process goes like this, candidate sends in CV and covering letter (or
agency stuff) along with application form. From this there is an initial
interview and a technical test administered by our recruiting people. They
report back to my department with the test (unmarked) and their general
impression of the candidate's suitability - i.e. they don't appear to be
lieing, their took the time to actually iron a shirt, and other really basic
stuff. If the report is OK, (doesn't have to be outstanding, just good), we
then mark the test to see what the technical ability is like. The test
itself is hard, you'd need a good working knowledge of SQL Server, and the
T-SQL language to be able to get good marks. You will also need to be able
to demostraight that you have good associated skills for DB work (i.e.
understanding normalisation techniques, being able to translate from end
user fuzzy requirements to into a scaleable relational table structure). If
the marks pass a certain level (I'm being deliberately vauge on this level),
we then get the candidate in for a second interview. This second interview
starts off with a presentation from the candidate. The will be on a topic
related to the job that they are going for. In the case of the SQL
Programmer job, the candidate is given a nasty database scenario (again, I'm
being deliberatly vague) and they need to give a presentation of how they
would solve the problem. Ideally, this will mean that they do solve the
problem, come up with a working end result, and the presentation is then
based around that - i.e. the solution, how and why they arrived at the
solution. At this point, I need to point out that it doesn't matter if they
did solve the problem. We're interested in how they coped with the problem,
if they can choose approprated technologies that will help, identify
potential problems and possibly solve them. Basically, can they do the job?
Finally, after the presentation, and questions this then carries on as a
normal interview where we find out more about the candidate, their past
experience, future goals, blah blah blah.

I know, I rambled on a bit there. That's out department interview process.
It's tough, but we get the best people that way. Oh, and if the candidate
says that they are not experienced, at T-SQL, but are learning, fine - I can
be more fogiving with the technical test, as long as they has the aptitude
to do the job, knowing the syntax off pat doesn't matter. We'll just be
looking for the ability to learn, and how they go about solving problems.
Actually, for our normal SQL problem, it's unlikely that candidate will
solve the problem properly. It's extremely nasty.

Regards

Colin Dawson
www.cjdawson.com

"rowe_newsgroups" <ro********@yahoo.comwrote in message
news:11*********************@i3g2000cwc.googlegrou ps.com...

So outside of having x number of years of experience how do candidates
"prove" themselves to employers?

Thanks,

Seth Rowe

Tracy McKibben wrote:
>Daniel Crichton wrote:
>
If you'd asked me that a few years ago, I'd have said I'd certainly
consider
the MS certification as a plus. However, I think it's been devalued
badly in
the past couple of years to the point that almost anyone can get an MCP
just
by clicking the answers that put MS in a good light. MCSD might be
harder to
achieve, but I still personally wouldn't consider it over good recent
practical commercial experience.

I agree completely with this point, but there are still many employers
out there that consider an MS cert to be a must-have. I went after the
MCSE back in 1992, when it meant something, but I would never put the
time/expense into it today. I got my MCDBA last August, but only
because it fulfilled a "personal growth" goal for my employer. I don't
feel that I gained a thing by doing it, the exams didn't cover any "real
world" situations, and after 10 years, I still find myself learning new
things about SQL Server.

--
Tracy McKibben
MCDBA
http://www.realsqlguy.com

Sep 27 '06 #35

John B

Tracy McKibben wrote:

Tracy McKibben wrote:
>Steven Nagy wrote:
>>>
You have to look at the bottom end of the scale as well. I know people
who have only 12 months real experience who are way better developers
than the long termers.
For those people, certification helps them show that their skills are
actually quite good.

I'll have to disagree on this one. On the DBA exams that I took, the
"correct" answer to many of the questions was the answer that involved
using one of the many wizards to perform a task. Stuff like "What's
the best way to set up log shipping?" - I've setup log shipping
multiple times using homegrown scripts, but the exam wants you to use
the log shipping wizard. I had never seen that wizard, but I knew it
existed, and I knew that would be the answer they were looking for.
Passing these Microsoft exams, at least the older ones, often boils
down to knowing the "Microsoft" answer to the question, not
necessarily the "right" answer.

Sorry for the self-reply, but I forgot to include something... Last
week, a friend of mine, also a DBA, interviewed for a job with a large
healthcare company, to be part of a team of DBA's. He was being grilled
by four of the existing DBA's, one of whom was some sort of team lead.
This team lead asked him what's the best way to transfer a database from
one server to another. My friend replied that if the database could be
taken offline for a few minutes, he would do a detach/reattach.
Otherwise he would do a backup/restore.

The team lead looked dumbfounded, and asked him why he wouldn't use the
Copy Database Wizard, because "he uses it all the time".

Heh, I must admit I do the exact same thing (scripts).
The last time I tried the copy db wizard, it failed because it tried to
copy the objects in alphabetical order, causing foreign key constraint
errors all over the place because it hadn't imported the fk target yet.
I hope they've fixed this (was 2001) by now but my scripts collection is
much easier for me to use.
Not only that but it gives more of an understanding into the language
instead of a knowledge of an ever changing gui.
Try copying a db from MSDE with no gui without scripts :)

JB

Sep 28 '06 #36