Microsoft doesn't want you to use VB .Net

[Homer J Simpson]

I am coming to the conclusion that Microsoft doesn't want you to use VB
..Net, based on my experiences. I've downloaded the Express version and
signed up for various support options etc. At every turn I have found the
whole experience frustrating, involving endless non functioning software,
broken links, incomprehensible and irrelevant information, examples that
don't work, help files that don't help and a complete lack of any sort of
reasonable support.

I see no benefit in trying to carry on with this effort, and intend to
reload VB 6.0 and use that instead. At least it works (mostly) and makes
sense.

H

[Dennis]

VB.Net 2003 works fine and I'm sure VB.Net 2005 will also "eventually".
Programming in VB 6.0 will probably result in a lot of problems down the road
as I'm sure M'soft will not support it much longer.

Also, you might be more satisfied with the Standard or Pro versions of VB.Net.
--
Dennis in Houston
"Homer J Simpson" wrote:

I am coming to the conclusion that Microsoft doesn't want you to use VB
..Net, based on my experiences. I've downloaded the Express version and
signed up for various support options etc. At every turn I have found the
whole experience frustrating, involving endless non functioning software,
broken links, incomprehensible and irrelevant information, examples that
don't work, help files that don't help and a complete lack of any sort of
reasonable support.

I see no benefit in trying to carry on with this effort, and intend to
reload VB 6.0 and use that instead. At least it works (mostly) and makes
sense.

H

[Brad Rogers]

If I had a megaphone, I might say: "step away from the computer" and have
you take a break, then think about what vb.net is and why youre frustrated
with it.

vb.net is object oriented. its powerful. its a revolution in computer
science.

it takes hard work to shift from VB6 to vb.net so realize that all of us
who catch up, had to work hard. Ive programmed with it, learned the hard
way, and after x years of software engineering had to take 2 college
semester courses in vb.net just to be able to start using it right. I
started the 'basic' series in qbasic, and jumped in with VB4 then 5, 6 and
was struggling to grasp .net in 2002. its still a learning curve.

There is no "non functioning software" vb.net is a revolution in computer
science. You have to think like Java and C++. vb.net is advanced and its
hard to learn, it takes time.

It reminds me of people who fixed vacuum tube tv sets, then the new
transistor sets came out? some couldnt grasp transistors and stayed with
tube only. In cars, some people couldnt learn smog controls, oh those are
so stupid, all the hoses and wires, why bother.

"Homer J Simpson" <no****@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:fPYrf.12677$AP5.3104@edtnps84...

I am coming to the conclusion that Microsoft doesn't want you to use VB
.Net, based on my experiences. I've downloaded the Express version and
signed up for various support options etc. At every turn I have found the
whole experience frustrating, involving endless non functioning software,
broken links, incomprehensible and irrelevant information, examples that
don't work, help files that don't help and a complete lack of any sort of
reasonable support.

I see no benefit in trying to carry on with this effort, and intend to
reload VB 6.0 and use that instead. At least it works (mostly) and makes
sense.

H

[Homer J Simpson]

"Brad Rogers" <br*************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4PZrf.6025$x%2.2604@trnddc06...

If I had a megaphone, I might say: "step away from the computer" and have
you take a break, then think about what vb.net is and why youre frustrated
with it.

vb.net is object oriented. its powerful. its a revolution in computer
science.

it takes hard work to shift from VB6 to vb.net

That's not my complaint. My complaint is that the whole procedure of trying
to upgrade has been frustrated by stunningly inept efforts on the part of
Microsoft to provide support for such migration. I doubt that they have ever
actually tried to step through the process themselves or had a test group
try to do this while someone took notes. It's a sloppy disorganized mess,
and those involved should be ashamed.

[Brad Rogers]

Do you mean upgrade your existing VB6 code into .net?

I really dont see the problem, you must re-write the majority of the
application in .net using OO priniples. What upgrade?

And Im told there is talk of a new version of VB to support the old VB6
users who dont want to migrate to OOP. (or are not able to grasp it)

I had to transition and have others also transition, its the cost of doing
business, but can you give an example(s) of something thats not being done
right? Its very possible I missed what youre describing

That's not my complaint. My complaint is that the whole procedure of trying to upgrade has been frustrated by stunningly inept efforts on the part of
Microsoft to provide support for such migration. I doubt that they have ever actually tried to step through the process themselves or had a test group
try to do this while someone took notes. It's a sloppy disorganized mess,
and those involved should be ashamed.

[Homer J Simpson]

"Brad Rogers" <br*************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:V%_rf.9331$x%2.3240@trnddc06...

Do you mean upgrade your existing VB6 code into .net?
No. I'm talking about getting to "Hello World" without finding code that
won't compile, links that are broken, training materials which drift off
into irrelevancy.
I really dont see the problem, you must re-write the majority of the
application in .net using OO priniples. What upgrade?

And Im told there is talk of a new version of VB to support the old VB6
users who dont want to migrate to OOP. (or are not able to grasp it)
I'm quite familiar with OOP -- and CASE for that matter.
I had to transition and have others also transition, its the cost of doing
business, but can you give an example(s) of something thats not being done
right? Its very possible I missed what youre describing

Perhaps you were luckier than me. I'm used to dealing with the odd quirk or
obstacle. This far exceeds that.

[Brad Rogers]

Well like I said, I had to take 2 semester courses on vb.net, a language I
was familiar with and developed in for business? and only now am really a
beginner. And I used to work with punched cards... I was upset at the
vb6 to .net change at first, then one day it made sense. I hope that same
joy and fulfillment comes your way soon.

Its been my experience that there are great links and examples, but the ones
with video tutorials are best IMO. If you visit the
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/ website? You will find the newest
training, for free. Its too awesome.

If you know OO, then vb.net should be a huge relief, easier to code than vb6

The only tech docs that were bad, that Ive found so far, were on the subject
of delegates, but I gave feedback and MSDN responded with some improvements.
Delegates are so hard to learn, there is no training. You have to simply
already understand them and use them. Delegates are so hard to understand
you have to actually create a parallel universe where you already know how
they work. Then the documentation makes sense. Worked for me.

"Homer J Simpson" <no****@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:bz%rf.12697$AP5.9062@edtnps84...

"Brad Rogers" <br*************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:V%_rf.9331$x%2.3240@trnddc06...

Do you mean upgrade your existing VB6 code into .net?
No. I'm talking about getting to "Hello World" without finding code that
won't compile, links that are broken, training materials which drift off
into irrelevancy.

I really dont see the problem, you must re-write the majority of the
application in .net using OO priniples. What upgrade?

And Im told there is talk of a new version of VB to support the old VB6
users who dont want to migrate to OOP. (or are not able to grasp it)

I'm quite familiar with OOP -- and CASE for that matter.

I had to transition and have others also transition, its the cost of doing business, but can you give an example(s) of something thats not being done right? Its very possible I missed what youre describing

Perhaps you were luckier than me. I'm used to dealing with the odd quirk

or obstacle. This far exceeds that.

[PJ on Development]

Hi...

Like most developers of my generation I had my first contact with
computers with BASIC... some 20 years ago.

When I started coding in BASIC the most powerful systems were developed
using COBOL, Fortran, Algol, etc...

(If you want to know a little bit more about it take a look at my
blog... at http://pjondevelopment.50webs.com/)

Anyway... Back then all you had to do to program in BASIC was pull up a
chair, sit on your computer and (usually) start typing something
like...

2 CLS
10 PRINT "Hello World!"
20 GOTO 10

Hehe... It was easy... :-P

As I grew older BASIC grew up with me... It overcome many obstacles in
its way. It left the ugly spaghetti programing, to become a procedural
language... when you need to type something like:

Sub Main()
While (True)
Print "Hello World!"
Wend
End Sub

Then BASIC became an event-oriented programming (as of Visual Basic 1.0
for DOS -- I still have the Install :-) Where you'd need to type
something like

Sub Button_Click()
MsgBox "Hello World!"
End Sub

And for quite some time it was a event-oriented language... regarded as
a second level language for many C programmers that like their curly
brackets and their ugly syntax.

The difficulty to develop software was ever increasing as the time went
by. Computers got twice as much power every six months... Moore's Law
were obeyed more than Gravity's Law.

BASIC wasn't keeping up with the demands of this new era... Many saw
the end of BASIC as certain as death and taxes...

But then in 2001 Microsoft presented us with VB.NET...

It was not the BASIC everyone knew... yet, it was a familiar ground...
something that we understand... we knew we could Master.

The learning curve was not that steep... but there was a learning
curve. It takes time. We need to learn how to do simple things once
more... but it was good... it was fun...

And that's what everything is about... FUN!

Sure thing... A lot of us code for money... but a great deal more code
because it's FUN! (and if we are paid for doing this... it is even
better :-)

If you code for some time you know what I am talking about...

With VB.NET we need to learn about Classes, Interfaces, Polymorphism,
Overloads, Shadows, Inheritance, etc, etc, etc...

So many new things were thrown so hard at us that many of us had a very
hard time adjusting themselves. But we managed to learn everything we
need to know.

Now... if you want to write that "Hello World" program now with VB.NET
2005, all you have to do is:

Module HelloWorld
Sub Main()
Do While (True)
System.Console.WriteLine("Hello World!")
Loop
End Sub
End Module

Oh yeah! I forgot to mention... we can build console application again
now too.. :-)

Regards,

PJ

[m.posseth]

if you want some good guidance and especially if you are a VB6 programmer
moving to VB.Net i would recomend "Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .Net "
by Francesco Balena ( Microsoft Press ) this book has it all clear examples
of everything there is to know ( the 2005 versions comes out in middle
january )

maybe you know francesco`s book already from the VB6 world ( programming
Microsoft visual basic 6.0 ) these books are the official core references so
anyone who is serious about programming in VB should have them on his book
shelf
this book wil be a reall money saver as you will discover ( i never followed
courses , and i am working as a pro programmer , the core reference , the
self paced training kit , and a MSDN subscription was enough for me )

regards

Michel Posseth [MCP]


"Homer J Simpson" <no****@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:bz%rf.12697$AP5.9062@edtnps84...

"Brad Rogers" <br*************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:V%_rf.9331$x%2.3240@trnddc06...

Do you mean upgrade your existing VB6 code into .net?

No. I'm talking about getting to "Hello World" without finding code that
won't compile, links that are broken, training materials which drift off
into irrelevancy.

I really dont see the problem, you must re-write the majority of the
application in .net using OO priniples. What upgrade?

And Im told there is talk of a new version of VB to support the old VB6
users who dont want to migrate to OOP. (or are not able to grasp it)

I'm quite familiar with OOP -- and CASE for that matter.

I had to transition and have others also transition, its the cost of
doing
business, but can you give an example(s) of something thats not being
done
right? Its very possible I missed what youre describing

Perhaps you were luckier than me. I'm used to dealing with the odd quirk
or obstacle. This far exceeds that.

[Joergen Bech]

Isn't this discussion 5 years old?

Sounds to me like you are still running an early beta of VS2005.
Otherwise I cannot recognize your problems.

If you can only work with full, F5-able samples, go download
something like
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/vs2005...s/default.aspx

If you are serious about development, what are you doing with the
Express editions? If you are spending valuable time learning a new
development tool, wouldn't you rather learn it using the full version
rather than a cut-down one? Otherwise you would have to go through
a lot of the same stuff again when you move to real development tasks.

I am sure that the Express editions are fine for learning basic (pun
intended) programming skills, but I would not expect to be able to
load and run all the samples I could find on the web.

As for VB6: I used VB4-6 for 8 years and loved it. Whatever I hit the
wall, I could usually solve my problems by making calls directly to
the Win32 API. Nowadays, when I open one of my old VB6 projects,
it feels like a toy language and it takes me quite a while to get my
head into VB6 mode in order to do something productive.

But I'll stop now: Seeing that you are posting anonymously in a
group like this, I presume you are just a troll.

/JB

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 20:57:47 GMT, "Homer J Simpson"
<no****@nowhere.com> wrote:

I am coming to the conclusion that Microsoft doesn't want you to use VB
.Net, based on my experiences. I've downloaded the Express version and
signed up for various support options etc. At every turn I have found the
whole experience frustrating, involving endless non functioning software,
broken links, incomprehensible and irrelevant information, examples that
don't work, help files that don't help and a complete lack of any sort of
reasonable support.

I see no benefit in trying to carry on with this effort, and intend to
reload VB 6.0 and use that instead. At least it works (mostly) and makes
sense.

H

[stand__sure]

First for love; then for a few friends; eventually for money.

All of us have had different paths to .NET, but almost all of us agree
that the destination has been worth reaching.

Yes, the MSDN .NET BCL documentation lacks something (namely cogent
examples; it would also be nice if the constructor lists showed more
than types; etc.), but if memory serves, the early MFC was (dare I say)
worse -- much worse.

The encapsulation of common WinAPI functions, the wealth of simple and
consistent forms controls (is it caption? is it label? no, it is
*always* Text now), the consistency of event handler code, generics,
etc. etc. etc. All of these are good things.

Throw into the mix type safety, code-access security, simplified
licensing, etc. and you have a really great set of tools with which to
write almost any application.

Yes, change can be painful, but in this case, the rewards far outweigh
the costs. Who ever dreamed of the day when you could write a Windows
application, a web application, an XML web service, a COM+
application,... all in the same language without having to import all
sorts of byzantine Win32 structures, without having to import a lot of
win32 dll functions, etc.? The destination is well worth the effort.

Now, if we could just get Microsoft to make all of the features in
VB.NET and C#.NET the same (anonymous delegates, the wonderful default
keyword, etc.) then life would be even better...

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Homer,

There is told that the current situation with MSDN is one of the major goals
to improve soon.

In my opinion you are right at the moment, it is for me as well at the
moment terrible, while it was real good, if you keep in mind what ammount of
information is in it.

Just my thought,

Cor.
"Homer J Simpson" <no****@nowhere.com> schreef in bericht
news:fPYrf.12677$AP5.3104@edtnps84...

I am coming to the conclusion that Microsoft doesn't want you to use VB
.Net, based on my experiences. I've downloaded the Express version and
signed up for various support options etc. At every turn I have found the
whole experience frustrating, involving endless non functioning software,
broken links, incomprehensible and irrelevant information, examples that
don't work, help files that don't help and a complete lack of any sort of
reasonable support.

I see no benefit in trying to carry on with this effort, and intend to
reload VB 6.0 and use that instead. At least it works (mostly) and makes
sense.

H

[Michael D. Ober]

The problem isn't with VB.Net itself. The problem is with the lousy
configuration control on www.microsoft.com. There have been innumerable
times in the past where I have clicked a link on the MS web-site only to
have it go off into never-land. Sounds like the VB portions of the site are
being reorganized while on-line. Both the VB 2005 and VB 6 support links
are seriously broken.

Mike Ober.

"Joergen Bech @ post1.tele.dk>" <jbech<NOSPAMNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:4k********************************@4ax.com...

Isn't this discussion 5 years old?

Sounds to me like you are still running an early beta of VS2005.
Otherwise I cannot recognize your problems.

If you can only work with full, F5-able samples, go download
something like
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/vs2005...s/default.aspx

If you are serious about development, what are you doing with the
Express editions? If you are spending valuable time learning a new
development tool, wouldn't you rather learn it using the full version
rather than a cut-down one? Otherwise you would have to go through
a lot of the same stuff again when you move to real development tasks.

I am sure that the Express editions are fine for learning basic (pun
intended) programming skills, but I would not expect to be able to
load and run all the samples I could find on the web.

As for VB6: I used VB4-6 for 8 years and loved it. Whatever I hit the
wall, I could usually solve my problems by making calls directly to
the Win32 API. Nowadays, when I open one of my old VB6 projects,
it feels like a toy language and it takes me quite a while to get my
head into VB6 mode in order to do something productive.

But I'll stop now: Seeing that you are posting anonymously in a
group like this, I presume you are just a troll.

/JB

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 20:57:47 GMT, "Homer J Simpson"
<no****@nowhere.com> wrote:

I am coming to the conclusion that Microsoft doesn't want you to use VB
.Net, based on my experiences. I've downloaded the Express version and
signed up for various support options etc. At every turn I have found the
whole experience frustrating, involving endless non functioning software,
broken links, incomprehensible and irrelevant information, examples that
don't work, help files that don't help and a complete lack of any sort of
reasonable support.

I see no benefit in trying to carry on with this effort, and intend to
reload VB 6.0 and use that instead. At least it works (mostly) and makes
sense.

H

[Joergen Bech]

ok. I rarely use the Microsoft site. Only the online documentation.

I always have complete copies of MSDN Library October 2001
(for my VS6 needs), MSDN Library for Visual Studio 2005, as well
as the latest version of MSDN Library (October 2005 at the moment)
installed locally on my machine.

For the rest of my research I use community sites and newsgroups.

If I need to figure out what the framework is doing under the hood,
I use .Net Reflector, which is a great study aid. I simply cannot
heap enough praise on this tool. Notice how I mention the use of
it in every other post I make :)

Then there are the books, articles, and open source projects: Whenever
I get hold of a book in pdf or chm format, it goes into a "Research"
folder (chm files are decompiled to html files). Web pages containing
interesting articles and source snippets are saved to this folder as
well. Finally, open source or public source (or what you care to call
them) projects are downloaded and unzipped to this folder.
I then use Copernic Desktop Search to search through all this stuff.
On my machine, Copernic is *only* configured to index files stored in
this folder, so if I want to see some uses of a specific .Net command,
I can just open Copernic Desktop Search and type the command,
which usually produces a number of results in various contexts.

So with all of the above, I have not had any need for the Microsoft
site - except when a Google result brings me directly to an article on
the site.

Which must be why any problems you might have experienced have
completely slipped under my radar.

Regards,

Joergen Bech

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 07:42:41 -0700, "Michael D. Ober"
<obermd.@.alum.mit.edu.nospam> wrote:

The problem isn't with VB.Net itself. The problem is with the lousy
configuration control on www.microsoft.com. There have been innumerable
times in the past where I have clicked a link on the MS web-site only to
have it go off into never-land. Sounds like the VB portions of the site are
being reorganized while on-line. Both the VB 2005 and VB 6 support links
are seriously broken.

Mike Ober.

"Joergen Bech @ post1.tele.dk>" <jbech<NOSPAMNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:4k********************************@4ax.com.. .

Isn't this discussion 5 years old?

Sounds to me like you are still running an early beta of VS2005.
Otherwise I cannot recognize your problems.

If you can only work with full, F5-able samples, go download
something like
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/vs2005...s/default.aspx

If you are serious about development, what are you doing with the
Express editions? If you are spending valuable time learning a new
development tool, wouldn't you rather learn it using the full version
rather than a cut-down one? Otherwise you would have to go through
a lot of the same stuff again when you move to real development tasks.

I am sure that the Express editions are fine for learning basic (pun
intended) programming skills, but I would not expect to be able to
load and run all the samples I could find on the web.

As for VB6: I used VB4-6 for 8 years and loved it. Whatever I hit the
wall, I could usually solve my problems by making calls directly to
the Win32 API. Nowadays, when I open one of my old VB6 projects,
it feels like a toy language and it takes me quite a while to get my
head into VB6 mode in order to do something productive.

But I'll stop now: Seeing that you are posting anonymously in a
group like this, I presume you are just a troll.

/JB

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 20:57:47 GMT, "Homer J Simpson"
<no****@nowhere.com> wrote:

>
>I am coming to the conclusion that Microsoft doesn't want you to use VB
>.Net, based on my experiences. I've downloaded the Express version and
>signed up for various support options etc. At every turn I have found the
>whole experience frustrating, involving endless non functioning software,
>broken links, incomprehensible and irrelevant information, examples that
>don't work, help files that don't help and a complete lack of any sort of
>reasonable support.
>
>I see no benefit in trying to carry on with this effort, and intend to
>reload VB 6.0 and use that instead. At least it works (mostly) and makes
>sense.
>
>H
>

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Joergen,

If I need to figure out what the framework is doing under the hood,
I use .Net Reflector, which is a great study aid. I simply cannot
heap enough praise on this tool. Notice how I mention the use of
it in every other post I make :)

The problem I have with the use of tools as reflector is that we see that
they are often overused.

In my opinion has it in a normal situation no sence to gain some
milliseconds. The user is not fast enough for that. The way a program is
written and with that the maintainability is in my opinion much more
important.

Reflector should only be used if there are problems that cannot be overcome.

However that is my opinion.

Cor

[Joergen Bech]

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:57:10 +0100, "Cor Ligthert [MVP]"
<no************@planet.nl> wrote:

Joergen,

If I need to figure out what the framework is doing under the hood,
I use .Net Reflector, which is a great study aid. I simply cannot
heap enough praise on this tool. Notice how I mention the use of
it in every other post I make :)

The problem I have with the use of tools as reflector is that we see that
they are often overused.

In my opinion has it in a normal situation no sence to gain some
milliseconds. The user is not fast enough for that. The way a program is
written and with that the maintainability is in my opinion much more
important.

Reflector should only be used if there are problems that cannot be overcome.

However that is my opinion.

That is why I said it was a great *study* aid. Although I do sometimes
use it to figure out what objects cause the least overhead, my main
use of it is to study how the framework classes are structured and fit
together. This provides some inspiration when I write my own classes
for tasks not directly supported in the framework.

I agree that for most tasks, there is no reason to look under the
hood. The implementation details might change, so optimizing for
the current CLR implementation might not be a good idea in the
long run.

But:

1) It is good to look at other people's code once in a while. Whether
through Reflector, the code produced by a colleague, or some open
source project. That way I am introduced to classes and collections
I have not stumbled across before in other contexts. At least when
looking at the framework through Reflector, I know that I am looking
at working production code - and learning a few things about the
framework at the same time.

2) I do a fair amount of graphics programming, which sometimes
requires writing highly optimized loops, caching calculations, and
so on and so forth. In those situations, I *do* care a lot about how
the compiler treats my code. Sometimes to the point where I rewrite
a loop in C (after prototyping/writing and debugging it in .Net, of
course:) ), and call it from managed code.

3) In some cases I might use the "wrong" constructor for an
object. When I look at it in Reflector, I might see that this
constructor calls another constructor (or uses an entirely
different class to do its work). If, that way, I find that the classes
used under the hood are more appropriate for my task, I'll
rewrite my code to use those classes directly. I consider this
to result in much cleaner code *provided* of course that it
does not mean writing *more* code.

Hope that makes it a bit clearer.

/JB

[Homer J Simpson]

"PJ on Development" <pj*************@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:11*********************@f14g2000cwb.googlegro ups.com...

Hi...

Like most developers of my generation I had my first contact with
computers with BASIC... some 20 years ago.

When I started coding in BASIC the most powerful systems were developed
using COBOL, Fortran, Algol, etc...

I started with punch cards on an Elliot 503. First language was Algol 68.
Like I say, I've worked with many a buggy system, but my complaint with VB
..Net isn't the language, it's the abysmal Microsoft support. ISTM that they
rushed it out without really checking what they were doing. For example, the
DVD library software they use as an example accesses Amazon for data.
Unfortunately they screwed up the access system and it breaks on many of
Amazon's pages, something which is not handled. Now you wind up poking
around in poorly documented code trying to figure out what the error is. And
this is just one of many failures. If they had chosen simpler examples,
something which accessed stable pages for data, it would have been much more
helpful IMO.

[Homer J Simpson]

"Joergen Bech @ post1.tele.dk>" <jbech<NOSPAMNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:4k********************************@4ax.com...

But I'll stop now: Seeing that you are posting anonymously in a
group like this, I presume you are just a troll.

I post anonymously from a deep desire to avoid solicitations to enlarge
various parts of my body - some of which body parts I do not have.

You should learn the difference between actual trolling and reasoned
complaints which are fully justified.

[Homer J Simpson]

"Joergen Bech @ post1.tele.dk>" <jbech<NOSPAMNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:6m********************************@4ax.com...

That is why I said it was a great *study* aid. Although I do sometimes
use it to figure out what objects cause the least overhead, my main
use of it is to study how the framework classes are structured and fit
together. This provides some inspiration when I write my own classes
for tasks not directly supported in the framework.

When I was learning C I found the Mix debugger was almost magical in it's
ability to show you what the compiler was doing. I would still recommend
that combination to anyone learning C.

[Joergen Bech]

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 21:21:15 GMT, "Homer J Simpson"
<no****@nowhere.com> wrote:

"Joergen Bech @ post1.tele.dk>" <jbech<NOSPAMNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:6m********************************@4ax.com.. .

That is why I said it was a great *study* aid. Although I do sometimes
use it to figure out what objects cause the least overhead, my main
use of it is to study how the framework classes are structured and fit
together. This provides some inspiration when I write my own classes
for tasks not directly supported in the framework.

When I was learning C I found the Mix debugger was almost magical in it's
ability to show you what the compiler was doing. I would still recommend
that combination to anyone learning C.

When I wrote my first game in machine code, I was writing it
on paper with the mnemonics to the left and the opcodes to
the right. I would then POKE the values into memory in a
FOR ... NEXT loop. Then I would save my work to tape
before I ran it (I would add new code below the previous,
finished work, hoping the game would be done before I hit
the bottom of the memory). If it crashed, I could only cry.

Later, when moving on to better hardware, I could actually
study dumps of the memory when something went wrong.
Well, sometimes ...

Ah, those were the days.

Wrong group. Better get back to VB now.

/JB

[Joergen Bech]

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 21:21:14 GMT, "Homer J Simpson"
<no****@nowhere.com> wrote:

"Joergen Bech @ post1.tele.dk>" <jbech<NOSPAMNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:4k********************************@4ax.com.. .

But I'll stop now: Seeing that you are posting anonymously in a
group like this, I presume you are just a troll.
I post anonymously from a deep desire to avoid solicitations to enlarge
various parts of my body - some of which body parts I do not have.

I have had the same email account for nearly 10 years. A pain in
the neck. Until my ISP installed a spam filter. Now, I hardly ever get
any spam mails. Sure was a problem back then, though.
You should learn the difference between actual trolling and reasoned
complaints which are fully justified.

Well, you *did* post anonymously and seeing that the topic has been
discussed to death a month ago when everybody finally realized that
the release date for VS2005 RTM had been chiseled in stone but
Microsoft had been fixing problems up to the very last minute (or so
it appears to me), your post sounded like flame bait :)

My humble apologies.

/JB

[Homer J Simpson]

"Joergen Bech @ post1.tele.dk>" <jbech<NOSPAMNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:kc********************************@4ax.com...

You should learn the difference between actual trolling and reasoned
complaints which are fully justified.

Well, you *did* post anonymously and seeing that the topic has been
discussed to death a month ago when everybody finally realized that
the release date for VS2005 RTM had been chiseled in stone but
Microsoft had been fixing problems up to the very last minute (or so
it appears to me), your post sounded like flame bait :)

No, I'm just a late adopter. I just upgraded to XP a month ago.

I always feel sorry for Bill Gates' first born kid.

"Never buy Microsoft Version 1.0 of ANYTHING".

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

PJ,

When Algol 68/Cobol started there was no direct user interface input (beside
styles as faking a cardreader or a single value input from a teletype)

At the start of BASIC there was no mouse and no Windows.

Try to keep that in mind, (the enormous ammount of events that can happen
now and to be managed while this is only one aspect) and I assume that you
get an idea why things had to change.

I hope this helps,

Cor

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Homer,

I always feel sorry for Bill Gates' first born kid.

"Never buy Microsoft Version 1.0 of ANYTHING".

This is often impossible.

IE was free
Frontpage Express was free

I am more scared by 'even' versions, which have in my idea a worse
expirience. Those even version are often loaded by things that seems to come
from the mind of some individuals, who thought that they had to extend to
the good starting versions. Than in the next version they are really good.

While in my mind mostly the x.1 versions are the best. Dos 1.1, Dos 3.1,
Windows 3.1(1) NT 5.1, VB 7.1.

:-)

Cor

[Joergen Bech]

On Tue, 27 Dec 2005 22:53:54 GMT, "Homer J Simpson"
<no****@nowhere.com> wrote:

"Joergen Bech @ post1.tele.dk>" <jbech<NOSPAMNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:kc********************************@4ax.com.. .

You should learn the difference between actual trolling and reasoned
complaints which are fully justified.

Well, you *did* post anonymously and seeing that the topic has been
discussed to death a month ago when everybody finally realized that
the release date for VS2005 RTM had been chiseled in stone but
Microsoft had been fixing problems up to the very last minute (or so
it appears to me), your post sounded like flame bait :)

No, I'm just a late adopter. I just upgraded to XP a month ago.

I always feel sorry for Bill Gates' first born kid.

"Never buy Microsoft Version 1.0 of ANYTHING".

VB3. VB6, and VS2005 are all "version 3.0"-products, which in
Microsoft terms means mature and stable, etc.

Here are some links you'll enjoy (as I said: discussed to death):
http://minimsft.blogspot.com/2005/11...fantastic.html
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/artic...1882596,00.asp
http://weblogs.asp.net/fbouma/archiv...03/429371.aspx
http://www.neowin.net/index.php?act=view&id=31329
http://www.panopticoncentral.net/arc.../09/10727.aspx

As one poster in the links above wrote: "If you are unhappy with
VS2005, go back to VS2003". Plenty of stuff to learn and work with
in VS2003. Wait for the VS2005 service pack to be released.

As far as I understand it, the problems are in the IDE - the compiler
is supposed to be rock solid. So far, that is my experience too.

/JB

[Pieter]

The documentation is indeed poor, and I have to admit that I don't
udnerstand some decisions either...
For instance: the DataGridView could have been a lovely control, especially
with the DataGridViewComboBoxColumn. But those idiots managed to use some
kind of 'new' combobox in it, that has only 10% of the possibility's of a
normal combobox. So the whole stuff is useless... The 'old' DataGrid still
is better :-(

[Paul Clement]

On Mon, 26 Dec 2005 20:57:47 GMT, "Homer J Simpson" <no****@nowhere.com> wrote:

¤
¤ I am coming to the conclusion that Microsoft doesn't want you to use VB
¤ .Net, based on my experiences. I've downloaded the Express version and
¤ signed up for various support options etc. At every turn I have found the
¤ whole experience frustrating, involving endless non functioning software,
¤ broken links, incomprehensible and irrelevant information, examples that
¤ don't work, help files that don't help and a complete lack of any sort of
¤ reasonable support.
¤
¤ I see no benefit in trying to carry on with this effort, and intend to
¤ reload VB 6.0 and use that instead. At least it works (mostly) and makes
¤ sense.

Are you looking for help or is this just a rant?

If you're having problems and are actually looking for a solution then you're going to have to be a
bit more specific concerning your complaints.
Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)

[Homer J Simpson]

"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:eh**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

When Algol 68/Cobol started there was no direct user interface input
(beside styles as faking a cardreader or a single value input from a
teletype)

At the start of BASIC there was no mouse and no Windows.

Try to keep that in mind, (the enormous ammount of events that can happen
now and to be managed while this is only one aspect) and I assume that you
get an idea why things had to change.

I hope this helps,

But when you buy a new car you expect to be able to drive it away from the
dealer. You don't expect that you will have to bring your own gas, oil and
water just to get the damn thing going. You don't expect that you will only
drive it a block before one of the tires explodes. You don't expect that the
battery is only good for 3 starts before you have to replace it. Yet that is
often the experience you have with computers in general, and Microsoft in
particular.

[Homer J Simpson]

"Paul Clement" <Us***********************@swspectrum.com> wrote in message
news:32********************************@4ax.com...

Are you looking for help or is this just a rant?

If you're having problems and are actually looking for a solution then
you're going to have to be a
bit more specific concerning your complaints.

I was looking for comments. I wondered if my experience was typical, or if
the fickle finger of fate had selected me. Apparently it's even worse than I
imagined. At least VB6 pretty much does what you expect with minimal
problems. It may not be perfect, but working beats not working IME.

[Paul Clement]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 20:12:15 GMT, "Homer J Simpson" <no****@nowhere.com> wrote:

¤
¤ "Paul Clement" <Us***********************@swspectrum.com> wrote in message
¤ news:32********************************@4ax.com...
¤
¤ > Are you looking for help or is this just a rant?
¤ >
¤ > If you're having problems and are actually looking for a solution then
¤ > you're going to have to be a
¤ > bit more specific concerning your complaints.
¤
¤ I was looking for comments. I wondered if my experience was typical, or if
¤ the fickle finger of fate had selected me. Apparently it's even worse than I
¤ imagined. At least VB6 pretty much does what you expect with minimal
¤ problems. It may not be perfect, but working beats not working IME.

Yeah, but comments regarding what exactly? Examples would certainly help. ;-)
Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)

[mstrcontrol]

Hi, Cor...

No I'm not complaining about changes... not at all...

I was simply telling my history a little bit.

Take a look at my site... :-)

http://pjondevelopment.50webs.com/

Regards,

PJ

[Homer J Simpson]

<ms*********@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@o13g2000cwo.googlegr oups.com...

http://pjondevelopment.50webs.com/

IME Firefox problems are caused by bad page design or elements (graphics
etc).

[Homer J Simpson]

"Paul Clement" <Us***********************@swspectrum.com> wrote in message
news:s2********************************@4ax.com...

Yeah, but comments regarding what exactly? Examples would certainly help.
;-)

Every time I fire up the environment it asks me to register, again,
promising benefits. If I do register - again - I get yet another thank you
email which points me to a webpage which seems to be totally irrelevant to
VB .Net but I cannot get any of the promised benefits. And so it goes.

[Brad Rogers]

Okay now I must doubt your intentions. This sounds just like bashing an
excellent product, just because its Microsoft, is that it? Yep thats it.

If youve been around since punched cards? there is no excuse for what youve
said about vb.net So since you cannot substantiate the claim in reality,
why bother people who use vb.net and know its an outstanding product?

But when you buy a new car you expect to be able to drive it away from the
dealer. You don't expect that you will have to bring your own gas, oil and
water just to get the damn thing going. You don't expect that you will only drive it a block before one of the tires explodes. You don't expect that the battery is only good for 3 starts before you have to replace it. Yet that is often the experience you have with computers in general, and Microsoft in
particular.

Yeah, sure... whatever

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Homer,

But when you buy a new car you expect to be able to drive it away from the
dealer. You don't expect that you will have to bring your own gas, oil and
water just to get the damn thing going. You don't expect that you will
only drive it a block before one of the tires explodes. You don't expect
that the battery is only good for 3 starts before you have to replace it.
Yet that is often the experience you have with computers in general, and
Microsoft in particular.

Not my expirience, my expirience is that people who are hardly able to drive
a bicycle wants direct to drive a Ferari and ask than why there is not an
automatic gearbox or things like that in it.

(And therefore Ferari made their care worse to let those people that asked
things like that as well drive in a car with a nameplate Ferari on it).

Just my thought,

Cor

[Pieter]

But face it Brad: Visual Studio .NET 2005 shipped to early, and is full of
terrible bugs, half-featered controls, etc...

"Brad Rogers" <br*************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:HVLsf.34951$7P2.34888@trnddc07...

Okay now I must doubt your intentions. This sounds just like bashing an
excellent product, just because its Microsoft, is that it? Yep thats it.

If youve been around since punched cards? there is no excuse for what
youve
said about vb.net So since you cannot substantiate the claim in reality,
why bother people who use vb.net and know its an outstanding product?

But when you buy a new car you expect to be able to drive it away from
the
dealer. You don't expect that you will have to bring your own gas, oil
and
water just to get the damn thing going. You don't expect that you will

only

drive it a block before one of the tires explodes. You don't expect that

the

battery is only good for 3 starts before you have to replace it. Yet that

is

often the experience you have with computers in general, and Microsoft in
particular.

Yeah, sure... whatever

[Pieter]

> (And therefore Ferari made their care worse to let those people that asked

things like that as well drive in a car with a nameplate Ferari on it).

Ah, just like me you don't like that neither on your Ferrari?

;-)

[Paul Clement]

On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 02:12:57 GMT, "Homer J Simpson" <no****@nowhere.com> wrote:

¤
¤ "Paul Clement" <Us***********************@swspectrum.com> wrote in message
¤ news:s2********************************@4ax.com...
¤
¤ > Yeah, but comments regarding what exactly? Examples would certainly help.
¤ > ;-)
¤
¤ Every time I fire up the environment it asks me to register, again,
¤ promising benefits. If I do register - again - I get yet another thank you
¤ email which points me to a webpage which seems to be totally irrelevant to
¤ VB .Net but I cannot get any of the promised benefits. And so it goes.
¤

I'll check it out to see if I can repro the problem.
Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)

[Brad Rogers]

Full of terrible bugs? May I ask if you do software design?

You referred to Microsoft or their product developers as "those idiots" ?
Are you just trying to pitch some open source product after saying you know
what its like to use Visual Studio and its so terrible, etc?

I could use any IDE on the market. Ive checked out many of them but found
Microsoft to be the best, period. Best product, best support, in other
words, the best. So thats what I use.

Open source is fine for hobbyists or whatever. But methinks your bashing of
Microsoft was done for things from around 10 years ago and the bashing lacks
substantiation. If people want an open source product, they can find them.
Advertising here by claiming Visual Studio is bad? In fact, which open
source are you guys plugging?

Ill check it and see if it can withstand the same scrutiny.
"Pieter" <pi**********@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

But face it Brad: Visual Studio .NET 2005 shipped to early, and is full of
terrible bugs, half-featered controls, etc...

[Brad Rogers]

OH geez, what a huge disappointment, its that Microsoft for you, right?
Even though the IDE works flawlessly and is the best there is? the giant
problem you have is a registration page...

yeah...sure, whatever

Which Open Source program are you trying to promote here?

Every time I fire up the environment it asks me to register, again,
promising benefits. If I do register - again - I get yet another thank you
email which points me to a webpage which seems to be totally irrelevant to
VB .Net but I cannot get any of the promised benefits. And so it goes.

[Randall Arnold]

Agreed. I am beyond frustrated by the bugs and shortcomings I've
encountered so far. I can only imagine what problems lie ahead.

And contrary to Brad's simplistic, broad assertion, I for one am a true VB
and VB.NET afficianado-- I'm just disappointed in what I've experienced so
far with VB.NET, particularly on ASP.NET pages. It's not ready for prime
time. Too many crucial features are missing or immature. The pathetic
Clipboard limitations are a prime example. I can't even copy an html table
to the Clipboard for crying out loud! That's just unacceptable IMO, and I
feel Homer's pain.

Randall Arnold

"Pieter" <pi**********@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

But face it Brad: Visual Studio .NET 2005 shipped to early, and is full of
terrible bugs, half-featered controls, etc...

"Brad Rogers" <br*************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:HVLsf.34951$7P2.34888@trnddc07...

Okay now I must doubt your intentions. This sounds just like bashing an
excellent product, just because its Microsoft, is that it? Yep thats it.

If youve been around since punched cards? there is no excuse for what
youve
said about vb.net So since you cannot substantiate the claim in
reality,
why bother people who use vb.net and know its an outstanding product?

But when you buy a new car you expect to be able to drive it away from
the
dealer. You don't expect that you will have to bring your own gas, oil
and
water just to get the damn thing going. You don't expect that you will

only

drive it a block before one of the tires explodes. You don't expect that

the

battery is only good for 3 starts before you have to replace it. Yet
that

is

often the experience you have with computers in general, and Microsoft
in
particular.

Yeah, sure... whatever

[Randall Arnold]

Here's an example: try using the Starter Kits in Visual Web developer 2005.
Good luck!

Randall Arnold

"Paul Clement" <Us***********************@swspectrum.com> wrote in message
news:s2********************************@4ax.com...

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 20:12:15 GMT, "Homer J Simpson" <no****@nowhere.com>
wrote:

¤
¤ "Paul Clement" <Us***********************@swspectrum.com> wrote in
message
¤ news:32********************************@4ax.com...
¤
¤ > Are you looking for help or is this just a rant?
¤ >
¤ > If you're having problems and are actually looking for a solution then
¤ > you're going to have to be a
¤ > bit more specific concerning your complaints.
¤
¤ I was looking for comments. I wondered if my experience was typical, or
if
¤ the fickle finger of fate had selected me. Apparently it's even worse
than I
¤ imagined. At least VB6 pretty much does what you expect with minimal
¤ problems. It may not be perfect, but working beats not working IME.

Yeah, but comments regarding what exactly? Examples would certainly help.
;-)
Paul
~~~~
Microsoft MVP (Visual Basic)

[Randall Arnold]

Flawlessly????

Congratulations: you may be the only person to be able to say that. I sure
can't.

Randall Arnold

"Brad Rogers" <br*************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:PtVsf.5782$Ff6.3709@trnddc01...

OH geez, what a huge disappointment, its that Microsoft for you, right?
Even though the IDE works flawlessly and is the best there is? the giant
problem you have is a registration page...

yeah...sure, whatever

Which Open Source program are you trying to promote here?

Every time I fire up the environment it asks me to register, again,
promising benefits. If I do register - again - I get yet another thank
you
email which points me to a webpage which seems to be totally irrelevant
to
VB .Net but I cannot get any of the promised benefits. And so it goes.

[Homer J Simpson]

"Brad Rogers" <br*************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:PtVsf.5782$Ff6.3709@trnddc01...

OH geez, what a huge disappointment, its that Microsoft for you, right?
Even though the IDE works flawlessly and is the best there is? the giant
problem you have is a registration page...

yeah...sure, whatever

Which Open Source program are you trying to promote here?

Ignoring your obvious trolling, what I am saying is that VB6 worked fine. It
was easy to use and provided functional results. Sure, there were things
about it that could have been better, but when you can put a useful program
together in less than 30 minutes you have something of value.

I just picked up a copy of "Visual Basic .Net Step by Step". Over 600 pages
and at the end you can spin three digits and see a picture if one is a 7.
You can access a database - but not easily. You can write code for a web
page - that only works with IE. Yep, that's impressive.

Object orientation is a solution looking for a problem. In all of the code I
have written in over 30 years I've never once thought, "Wow, if only this
module could inherit from that module, or if I had yet another way to limit
the scope of variables (encapsulation)."

Give me VB7 and a simple way to design and build help files. VB .Net may
look better - but it isn't better.

[Homer J Simpson]

"Randall Arnold" <ra************@nokia.com> wrote in message
news:eJ**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

Here's an example: try using the Starter Kits in Visual Web developer
2005.

I tried "Amazon-Enabled Movie Collection Starter Kit". Didn't work. I poked
around in the code and hacked it to work, but it's god awful complicated for
what it does. The others were odd and uninteresting.

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Randall,

The pathetic Clipboard limitations are a prime example. I can't even copy
an html table to the Clipboard for crying out loud! That's just
unacceptable IMO, and I feel Homer's pain.

That has nothing to do with Net. Have a look at my explanation about this in
the thread of your problem.

The way you can use the clipboard in not Web applications is outstanding in
Net.

Cor

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Homer,

For most of us is VB6 is more than 3 years ago.

We have seen all those messages you make now done by many people.
Almost everyone who had written that was making afterwards messages as.

"I had a lot to say about VB.Net. Now they will have to pull me at my hairs
screaming back to VB6 if that is needed?

Cor

[Joergen Bech]

Object orientation is a solution looking for a problem. In all of the code I
have written in over 30 years I've never once thought, "Wow, if only this
module could inherit from that module, or if I had yet another way to limit
the scope of variables (encapsulation)."
If you are thinking about silly textbook examples OO, maybe.

But when (if) you move from VB6 to .Net and find that you can (e.g.)
just add
those properties and methods to the standard TextBox control you
always wanted, you'll eventually start using OO principles more and
more - to the point where VB6 will seem like a toy and you would
rather switch career than go back.

OO practices are used throughout the framework itself.

If you haven't been exposed to OO principles in your 30 years of
coding (by writing Java or C++ or whatever), it might take a while
to get it. If you have, but still don't get it, you probably never
will. Have you thought about retirement?
Give me VB7 and a simple way to design and build help files. VB .Net may
look better - but it isn't better.

I felt the same way. I could do anything I wanted in VB6, but after
one month with .Net, I was sold.

Now I say: Bury Classic VB. Let's have none of this compatibility
crap. Force people to move on.

But not to worry: There will still be a need for VB6 programmers for
years to come. Same as there is still a need for COBOL programmers.
Those old systems still need to be maintained until they can be
replaced.

/JB

PS: Just fanning the flames. Heh ... this thread is going to live for
a while. And when it dies, someone will eventually start a similar
one.

[Joergen Bech]

"I had a lot to say about VB.Net. Now they will have to pull me at my hairs
screaming back to VB6 if that is needed?

I just read this article:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articl...vaSchools.html

and if you go back in the archive, you'll find this one:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articl...tractions.html

which ends on this note:

"And while these great tools, like modern OO forms-based languages,
let us get a lot of work done incredibly quickly, suddenly one day we
need to figure out a problem where the abstraction leaked, and it
takes 2 weeks. And when you need to hire a programmer to do mostly VB
programming, it's not good enough to hire a VB programmer, because
they will get completely stuck in tar every time the VB abstraction
leaks."

I agree. It is very useful to know what is going on under the covers
so one can work around limitations of the abstraction. Served me well
to know more than VB6 when I was doing VB6. Serves me well to
know more than VB.Net now that I am doing VB.Net. But in this case,
"more" does not mean VB6 - it still means what I did besides VB6.

The only use I have of my knowledge of VB6 is when I need to
port old VB6 code to VB.Net.

Programming in VB.Net gives me access to the enormous .Net
framework, meaning I have to write less plumbing myself. It also
gives me access to data types and operations I was missing in
VB6 when doing "low-level" work. So VB.Net, to me, is an expansion
of capabilities in both directions. I am not implying that VB6 is a
Turing machine. Just that it can sometimes be harder to do something
in VB6 than would be the case in .Net.

Note: This, of course, is provided that the one doing the something
is new to both languages or new to the aspects of the languages
required to do the job; The one who knows VB6 like the back of his
hand can run rings around a programmer who is new to VB.Net, but
take two equally experienced programmers and there is just no
competition.

/JB

[GreggMB]

Not much to do with VB. The issue is much broader and extends to general
"philosophy"/trend and poor practices seen not just in one version of one
product, not even within one of MS Divisions, it's over-all problem of big
company that does not have enough competition to give a ... (you know what).

Over past few years I started regretting that I focused on MS technologies
(I was totally emerged in it and every new thing was a great deal of
excitement for me... but that apparently is a "past" as my disgust with some
of MS practices keeps growing and growing...).

Which is too bad. This largest, most financially "potent" corporation could
really re-focus and channel their resources in more positive directions....

And after all we have to remember: this is all about money. Only the
products that generate substantial profit are always in focus.

"Homer J Simpson" wrote:

I am coming to the conclusion that Microsoft doesn't want you to use VB
..Net, based on my experiences. I've downloaded the Express version and
signed up for various support options etc. At every turn I have found the
whole experience frustrating, involving endless non functioning software,
broken links, incomprehensible and irrelevant information, examples that
don't work, help files that don't help and a complete lack of any sort of
reasonable support.

I see no benefit in trying to carry on with this effort, and intend to
reload VB 6.0 and use that instead. At least it works (mostly) and makes
sense.

H