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Killing VB softly with his song, Killing VB softly...with a song.............

P: n/a
This is not about starting a fight but an observation that seems to be
proving itself on its own merit and is therefore simply a point of
conjecture.

I did not get serious about writing software until I learned ASP/VBS (if
that can be called writing software) as my focus was and remains for the
most part developing for the web. Even though I have had a programming class
in C which I somehow passed, JavaScript always gave me the heeby jeebies as
the syntax and grammar were foreign to me, different than ASP/VBS and those
curly braces and the semi-colon stuff seemed noisy and uneccessary.

When I decided to learn ASP.NET I began to do so using C# as I had an
epiphany. That is, both C# and JavaScript as well as Java all derive from
the legacy of C. So learning one language well meant I learned three for
the price of one. I came to understand I would never master web development
if I did not master JavaScript on the client. I also understood I would
never master web development if I did not master C# on the server. I kne
doing so meant I could read and understand Java. Perhaps some day to work on
a different platform. End of that discussion for me. Learn three for the
price of one became my mantra sung in the key og C# which by the way has
seven sharps or seven flats depending which direction you move on the scale.

That pursuit of efficiency was in fact my rationale for learning ASP/VBS as
I told myself I could simply learn one dialect and then reuse it to move up
the VB stack from VBS to VBA and eventually build solutions using VB itself.
The presence of ASP.NET changed that entire paradigm however. The epiphany
changed me and I began my pursuit to learn three for the price of one.

The point is, the future has a way of changing our grand plans. Microsoft
has done much recently to help VB developers migrate to .NET. Even if that
were argued one must ask where VB developers would or could go if they
decided to jump this ship? PHP? Hardy Har Har. Java? Get out the meds. C#.
Uh, not in this lifetime many have chimed. At least not until recent changes
of those grand plans which motivates me to write this note.

With the future of web development rapidly becoming ingrained with the
benefits of what we once called remote scripting which has been rebranded as
A(synchronous) JA(vascript) X(ml) it seems learning three for the price of
one is a song that has hit the charts with a bullet.

Most of what I have read when lured into the VB or C# discussions has been
comprised of two considerations for the most part;

1.) VB developers do not like the syntax and grammar of JavaScript (whoops,
I mean C#)
2.) The framework is the same for either.

So where do VB web developers go from here?

I contend again for the most part VB is a dialect that the nature of
progress considers an endangered species. Unless the web decides to go away
the predator (change) will continue to erode the value of VB which is in
effect already being killed off softly with a reminiscent analogy to the old
song by what's her name (Roberta Flack) which was later made to be FUBAR by
the Fugees.

Some VB developers have mastered JavaScript, this is understood and
admirable. Microsoft can only do so much to keep VB alive but it really
seems the present and most certainly the future depends on efficiency more
so than eve. VB developers as I see it will be increasingly compelled to
adopt the legacy of the C syntax and grammar. AJAX just about demands this
does it not? This is not to say the desktop is going away and Windows Forms
applications will continue to be developed of course but will employers or
any other context one must consider with regard to optimizing one's
knowledge and time not be of considerable importance?

In that regard I conted, the tune that must be sung is "learn three for the
price of one."
I can only wonder if in time, more VB developers will also choose to sing
this tune or will they wait until the market compels them to sing in a
different key whether they would like to or not? Time will tell. Either way,
we'll be waiting to see more of ya' all over at
news://microsoft.public.language.csharp :-)
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/


Nov 21 '05 #1
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39 Replies


P: n/a
Wow, so much to respond to and so little time...

FACT: VB has been around in one form or another for over 20 years. I doubt
it will be going extinct anytime soon.
FACT: There are millions and millions of VB developers...See fact #1

You seem to base your opinion on the premise that VB developers
don't/won't/can't learn or know C-like languages and that's just not true
for a large majority of them. I, myself do most of my development in VB
..NET (and VB 6.0 before that and VB 5.0 before that ..... and BASIC before
that), but I am also well-versed in JavaScript and C#. I just prefer VB
..NET for its lack of case-sensitivity and the fact that it is less
punctuation oriented - {}: [](). Some say that the use of this punctuation
clears the code of the verbose keywords that VB uses. That's there opinion
and they are entitled to it, but to say that VB is very clear about what is
happening because the keyword indicates the intention is just as valid of an
opinion.

Where does a VB developer go from here is your question? To the next
evolution of VB when it comes (and it will).


"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in message
news:en**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
This is not about starting a fight but an observation that seems to be
proving itself on its own merit and is therefore simply a point of
conjecture.

I did not get serious about writing software until I learned ASP/VBS (if
that can be called writing software) as my focus was and remains for the
most part developing for the web. Even though I have had a programming
class in C which I somehow passed, JavaScript always gave me the heeby
jeebies as the syntax and grammar were foreign to me, different than
ASP/VBS and those curly braces and the semi-colon stuff seemed noisy and
uneccessary.

When I decided to learn ASP.NET I began to do so using C# as I had an
epiphany. That is, both C# and JavaScript as well as Java all derive from
the legacy of C. So learning one language well meant I learned three for
the price of one. I came to understand I would never master web
development if I did not master JavaScript on the client. I also
understood I would never master web development if I did not master C# on
the server. I kne doing so meant I could read and understand Java. Perhaps
some day to work on a different platform. End of that discussion for me.
Learn three for the price of one became my mantra sung in the key og C#
which by the way has seven sharps or seven flats depending which direction
you move on the scale.

That pursuit of efficiency was in fact my rationale for learning ASP/VBS
as I told myself I could simply learn one dialect and then reuse it to
move up the VB stack from VBS to VBA and eventually build solutions using
VB itself. The presence of ASP.NET changed that entire paradigm however.
The epiphany changed me and I began my pursuit to learn three for the
price of one.

The point is, the future has a way of changing our grand plans. Microsoft
has done much recently to help VB developers migrate to .NET. Even if that
were argued one must ask where VB developers would or could go if they
decided to jump this ship? PHP? Hardy Har Har. Java? Get out the meds. C#.
Uh, not in this lifetime many have chimed. At least not until recent
changes of those grand plans which motivates me to write this note.

With the future of web development rapidly becoming ingrained with the
benefits of what we once called remote scripting which has been rebranded
as A(synchronous) JA(vascript) X(ml) it seems learning three for the price
of one is a song that has hit the charts with a bullet.

Most of what I have read when lured into the VB or C# discussions has been
comprised of two considerations for the most part;

1.) VB developers do not like the syntax and grammar of JavaScript
(whoops, I mean C#)
2.) The framework is the same for either.

So where do VB web developers go from here?

I contend again for the most part VB is a dialect that the nature of
progress considers an endangered species. Unless the web decides to go
away the predator (change) will continue to erode the value of VB which is
in effect already being killed off softly with a reminiscent analogy to
the old song by what's her name (Roberta Flack) which was later made to be
FUBAR by the Fugees.

Some VB developers have mastered JavaScript, this is understood and
admirable. Microsoft can only do so much to keep VB alive but it really
seems the present and most certainly the future depends on efficiency more
so than eve. VB developers as I see it will be increasingly compelled to
adopt the legacy of the C syntax and grammar. AJAX just about demands this
does it not? This is not to say the desktop is going away and Windows
Forms applications will continue to be developed of course but will
employers or any other context one must consider with regard to optimizing
one's knowledge and time not be of considerable importance?

In that regard I conted, the tune that must be sung is "learn three for
the price of one."
I can only wonder if in time, more VB developers will also choose to sing
this tune or will they wait until the market compels them to sing in a
different key whether they would like to or not? Time will tell. Either
way, we'll be waiting to see more of ya' all over at
news://microsoft.public.language.csharp :-)
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

Nov 21 '05 #2

P: n/a
Hi,

I thought a lot of text not untrue who is writing this. And at the end I saw
it Clinton. I answer you with a metaphor.

Clinton, have one time a longer Holliday and go to Western Europe. I don't
know what you like, however when you tell that, than I can give you maybe a
nice advice.

Let say you start for this explanation at Paris, you go to the nice musea,
look to the expensive shops, go to the markets and have a visit at the Night
live. In Paris people is almost only speaking French.

Then you go to London as well a nice city and you try to taste the life of
London, it has something that I think you cannot describe, people are only
speaking English there.

Than you go to Rome (not the best route however for this text). Very nice
historic buildings and fine food and pleasant way of behaviour from people,
completely different from the other cities again, people are speaking
Italian and those have the habit trying to understand you when you try to
speak English because they are almost forever very friendly.

The last city (normally better to start with as American however it is for
this message) is Amsterdam. It has a nice historic city, very good musea and
good and exiting nightlife. The food you can not compare with Rome and Paris
or the Asian food from London (my own opinion). However *you* will not be
able to speak another language than English in Amsterdam, while the
inhabitants are speaking Dutch to each other.

Most Europeans understand each other because the languages in those
countries differ for you a lot, however not as much that people cannot
communicate with each other because the differences are not that much.
(People from some countries can this easier than from other countries)

This metaphor to show you that a lot of languages would not be a problem, as
long as they are not completely different where by instance"close" means in
the other language "open" because than you have big trouble.

To give such an examnple of this. Plat Duits means in Dutch "Bad German",
while in the German language it means "Flatland German", almost every
Dutchman is very angry when a German says, your language sounds the same as
"Plat" German.

Not one of the countries will give up its own language although some English
speaking people have sometimes that idea.

I hope that it answers a little bit your question.

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #3

P: n/a
<snip />

You missed the point Cor but the use of analogy is often useful so I will
respond to that analogy.

If the rest of the world decided to use English all the time especially for
very important business processes the people who speak Dutch or German would
be compelled to learn English. Has this not happened? Yes, it has.

In time -- perhaps a very long time but it will happen anyway -- Dutch or
German would only be spoken in the home to talk to grandma and the kids.
Eventually, grandma passes away and the kids grow up and want to go out into
the real world which requires them to speak English to go to school, to do
business, whatever. Those that do not learn to read, write and speak English
well will always be at a disadvantage. In time, they will not even be able
to get any work at all. Maybe it will take a long time but this is how it
will happen because this is how it has already happened.

And this is what has just happened in web development because the use of
AJAX had made it clear that everybody must now learn to master JavaScript
more so than ever before or their websites will not be as useful or function
as well as others.

So my point is the big question, "Even though you know how to speak Dutch
and German and English very well what about the rest of the world? Why keep
talking in Dutch and German when learning one language such as English
allows you to talk to many many more people? That is what is going on in the
world today. Needing to master JavaScript in web development is like needing
to master English. Some are going to make it and some are not. Time will
tell how important it is but I believe it is going to give many VB
developers a difficult time.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
Nov 21 '05 #4

P: n/a
<snip />

Time will tell of course but I do think that as time moves forward the need
to master JavaScript will become increasingly evident and more pressing to a
greater number of people doing web development. Perhaps we'll see push
button monkey code solutions evolve. Who knows? All I know is it made a lot
of sense to me to adopt my learn three for the price of one philosophy which
in itself is enough work as it is and I think client-side development is
going to erode the use of VB in this context and only in this context
because so many others -- yourself clearly excepted -- have expressed a
disdain for the syntax and grammar which derives from C. Its not like other
languages will go away but they most certainly become relagated to niche
status as we've seen. It also not like there will not be a need to learn new
languages as I now must also consider learning Ruby for some specific
applications I may be developing in the future.

So again, time will tell noting I appreciate the lack of nitpicking that
could have developed around a simple premise that being the increased usage
of JavaScript in due time will kill off the popularity of the VB syntax and
grammar. Perhaps more so in ASP/VBS than .NET. Again, time will tell and
we'll have to see where this AJAX trend leads but for me there seems to be
no question that the rich user interface is the goal that has brought
JavaScript roaring back to life and XML isn't going anywhere soon so I'm
glad I decided to learn C# as it has made it much easier to read,
understand, and use JavaScript for having done so.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
Nov 21 '05 #5

P: n/a

Ahum if i may step in the analogy ....
verry short

then VB is mandarine Chinese ( or Spanish if you like ) You speak
English ( C# ) however despite as what you might think there are a lot more
people speaking Spanish or Chinese in the world as there are English
speaking people in the world

P.S.

I program Basic since 13 years of age ( now 31 ) i just love the language ,
and i program a lot faster in VB.Net as in C# although i master C style
syntax
i just prefer VB ( and VB is here to stay ) , also VB is a true RAD tool
and C# can`t beat that .

Michel Posseth
"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> schreef in bericht
news:uu**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
<snip />

You missed the point Cor but the use of analogy is often useful so I will
respond to that analogy.

If the rest of the world decided to use English all the time especially
for very important business processes the people who speak Dutch or German
would be compelled to learn English. Has this not happened? Yes, it has.

In time -- perhaps a very long time but it will happen anyway -- Dutch or
German would only be spoken in the home to talk to grandma and the kids.
Eventually, grandma passes away and the kids grow up and want to go out
into the real world which requires them to speak English to go to school,
to do business, whatever. Those that do not learn to read, write and speak
English well will always be at a disadvantage. In time, they will not even
be able to get any work at all. Maybe it will take a long time but this is
how it will happen because this is how it has already happened.

And this is what has just happened in web development because the use of
AJAX had made it clear that everybody must now learn to master JavaScript
more so than ever before or their websites will not be as useful or
function as well as others.

So my point is the big question, "Even though you know how to speak Dutch
and German and English very well what about the rest of the world? Why
keep talking in Dutch and German when learning one language such as
English allows you to talk to many many more people? That is what is going
on in the world today. Needing to master JavaScript in web development is
like needing to master English. Some are going to make it and some are
not. Time will tell how important it is but I believe it is going to give
many VB developers a difficult time.

<%= Clinton Gallagher

Nov 21 '05 #6

P: n/a
Clinton,

Going on in your message (at the middle I go over more to the exact
subject). That people is in this century is speaking often English as
communication language is something that started in the previous century.

It has always be French and there is forever thought that it would stay
French.. Why would the world learn English which is only spoken by 8% of the
world population.

While new financial powers can be in the future China and/or India, which
uses languages that are spoken by much more people in the world.

You over estimate the role of the English language in the world as a lot of
English people do. The same is often done by only French or Russian speaking
people.

Don't forget that English is really a bad language when it is compared with
much other languages. (Not Dutch that is even worse).

And than coming back to your subject. This is in my opinion the same with
program languages. Don't see it only from your focus, it will probably
change. I got a nice message from somebody in the newsgroup General who
showed me this.

http://www.levenez.com/lang/history.html#01

This looks to me as something from the begin of the evolution, one of the
interesting things in it is that VB (Basic) together with Cobol has the
longest straight line.

You talk about AJAX (An in Europe famous Amsterdam football club (for you
soccer)).

Ken has set this sample on our website, I thought that it has as much
JScript as VBNet code in it.

http://www.vb-tips.com/default.aspx?...d-73214b27750c

I don't believe that the current languages will be used in future, as well
do I not believe that there will be one language in the world, as that in
the Bible is written there was before the time of the of the tower of
Babylon..

Just my thought,

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #7

P: n/a
Found this an interesting subject considering my current affair with
deciding on language skills to adopt (first).

In the very beginning (back in the early 70's), I started my programming
adventure learning machine language and proudly (later) Assembly Language
(yes, there is a difference!). It gave a good sense of what goes on inside
the computer and is very efficient. Oh but all those mnemonics to learn.
Forget to shift a bit here, a bit there, and you're toast!

By the end of the 70's I had accomplished programming in Fortran, Cobol, and
some other language long removed from my memory (started with an 'A' and is
not Asm.) By 1980 I learned BASIC and thought "what an easy but inefficient
language this is. So I dumped it in favor of learning 'C' that really gave
me the feeling of POWER programming while being easier to deal with over
Assy.

But then came C++ and I had to learn that. Never got good enough (nor
mastered inheritance, etc) by the time a buddy of mine around 1994 suggested
I try Visual Basic (think it was version 4). "What, Basic??? Yuk! Dude, I'm
a 'C' guy." Well, he showed me the nice visual interface and how easy to
create forms, etc. So I gave in and started learning VB. Upgraded to 5.
Upgraded to 6. And there is where I am at now.

What about 'C', 'C++', 'Cobol and Fortran', 'Assembly'? Amazingly, I have
FORGOTTEN how to program using these prior languages.

Today I'm here because I want to learn VB.NET. I have installed VB.NET 2002
(got this with my MSDN membership a couple years ago) although I know it is
an old version. Guess I'm waiting for my VB.NET 2005 Beta 2 disk to arrive
in the mail form MS to upgrade. But while I look to learn VB.NET, I have to
wonder whether I am missing something in the world of 'C' or 'C++' and even
Assembly Language if you can believe that.

I've been told that programming in 'C' or 'C++' ( should anyone even bother
with 'C' with the likes of C++ around?) creates more efficient running
programs that are also smaller in size. They run faster as well. I've been
told that because hard drives have more capacity we VB programmers are a lax
bunch making fatter and fatter programs rather than tighter ones (greater
speed and smaller size?) achieved with 'C' or similar (?).

Although size is a minor inconvenience in today's larger drive capacity for
less $$ (except if your clients have to download your programs from the net
as mine do), speed is something I cannot afford to give away. So I wonder
whether my time would be better served by going back to 'C' or 'C++'
(whichever is better...I dunno) and learning it all over again or hanging in
there with VB (thus VB.NET from VB6).

ClintonG voiced an opinion that I often consider. Being one who loves this
field but doesn't want to waste time, I often wonder as I walk down the
programming section of Barne's and Noble whether any of those books on a
language I do not know would teach me something that I not only would find
useful, but would open additional doors to learn others FASTER. Learning one
language and then being able to quickly pick up one or two more is something
I certainly would entertain. Again, I certainly do not want to waste my time
as I'm not getting any younger (time running out!) and there is so much I
want and need to do.

I know that what you decide to use all depends on what you want to do. Guess
to say I want to do it all would be a bit over the top. Okay, priority is
that I need to write programs that my clients can download in a respectable
amount of time, and that it runs as fast as possible on their computers.
Some of my programs do a lot of cycles and you have to wait sometimes a
minute (or more) for the results to pop up. Faster, faster! Is VB.NET still
the path I should take? Anyone know? Or perhaps should I consider something
else?

Just prior to reading this thread I have been looking into re-learning
Assembly Language. "What???" you may be thinking. Before you say anything,
have you done it first? I'd like to hear from those who know this language
as well as VB.NET and have a view to share. Why re-learn Assembly? I'm
thinking perhaps writing small snipets to handle the more time intensive
aspects of my VB programs (if I decide to stick with VB of course) to speed
them up a bit. But then, maybe someone here might re-direct my view and say
"why not do this with 'C' or 'C++' (please say which is better) instead of
Assy." I really don't know. Since VB4, I've been disconnected from all these
other languages that I have to wonder if I'm missing the big picture.

Is all this verbose painting a clear picture of what I'm trying to ask? Or
is it just proving I'm going nuts and should be locked up? ;-)

Q. If you wanted to produce tight programs (smaller size) that runs fast,
and you wanted to get the project done in a short period of time, which
direction might you go? Will VB.NET fit this bill?

Q. Will the answer from the first question also allow for a leg up in
learning other languages, such as getting 3 for 1 as Clinton states? This is
a secondary desire. My priority is with the first question.

Thanks for reading. I look forward to the insights of all your collective
experiences in respects to this subject.

Rick


"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in message
news:et**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
<snip />

Time will tell of course but I do think that as time moves forward the
need to master JavaScript will become increasingly evident and more
pressing to a greater number of people doing web development. Perhaps
we'll see push button monkey code solutions evolve. Who knows? All I know
is it made a lot of sense to me to adopt my learn three for the price of
one philosophy which in itself is enough work as it is and I think
client-side development is going to erode the use of VB in this context
and only in this context because so many others -- yourself clearly
excepted -- have expressed a disdain for the syntax and grammar which
derives from C. Its not like other languages will go away but they most
certainly become relagated to niche status as we've seen. It also not like
there will not be a need to learn new languages as I now must also
consider learning Ruby for some specific applications I may be developing
in the future.

So again, time will tell noting I appreciate the lack of nitpicking that
could have developed around a simple premise that being the increased
usage of JavaScript in due time will kill off the popularity of the VB
syntax and grammar. Perhaps more so in ASP/VBS than .NET. Again, time will
tell and we'll have to see where this AJAX trend leads but for me there
seems to be no question that the rich user interface is the goal that has
brought JavaScript roaring back to life and XML isn't going anywhere soon
so I'm glad I decided to learn C# as it has made it much easier to read,
understand, and use JavaScript for having done so.

<%= Clinton Gallagher

Nov 21 '05 #8

P: n/a
Rick,

I have done assembler as well, that was fun, doing everything by yourself.
Those times are gone, we cannot make all those nice screens as they are now
by hazling with all those bytes..

However your main question. VBNet has one advantage over all those languages
you mention. It has the best IDE (what you call the visual interface) and
than it creates the smallest exe's, however that is only a very small
difference.

The speed between all Net languages (when used option strict on in VBNet) is
exactly the same.

I think that there is nothing more to say.

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #9

P: n/a
Thanks Cor.
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:%2******************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Rick,

I have done assembler as well, that was fun, doing everything by yourself.
Those times are gone, we cannot make all those nice screens as they are
now by hazling with all those bytes..

However your main question. VBNet has one advantage over all those
languages you mention. It has the best IDE (what you call the visual
interface) and than it creates the smallest exe's, however that is only a
very small difference.

The speed between all Net languages (when used option strict on in VBNet)
is exactly the same.

I think that there is nothing more to say.

Cor

Nov 21 '05 #10

P: n/a
After an (extensive) search across the net and reading a zillion opinions,
the thought came to me to simply query the developer (Microsoft) as to what
each of their .NET languages offer in pros and cons.

I found these statements to be quite revealing:
a.. Programmers chiefly concerned with the performance characteristics of
their applications. C++ offers developers the largest degree of control over
program design and execution. Advanced developers can design and implement
applications using C++ that execute more quickly and efficiently than if
they were written in other languages, including both native Windows-based
and .NET-connected applications.
b.. Programmers who wish to build truly cross-platform solutions. Only the
C++ language contains an ISO-standardized and truly portable syntax,
available on virtually every operating system platform. Visual C++ .NET 2003
offers increased standards compliance, enabling programmers to use advanced
language features and to take advantage of popular class libraries available
for a variety of different operating systems.
Unique Language Features
Visual C++ .NET contains several unique language features in high demand
among advanced programmers. These language features contribute to making C++
the most powerful of all the Microsoft-provided Visual Studio languages:

a.. Templates. Templates comprise several compile-time language features
which are largely unique to C++, enabling many code reuse and performance
enhancing capabilities.
b.. Pointers. Pointers give C++ developers direct access to machine level
memory locations, enabling the highest performing applications.
c.. Multiple inheritance. C++ offers developers a full gamut of
object-oriented programming (OOP) features for implementing the widest
variety of OOP programming patterns.
d.. Intrinsics. Intrinsics provide developers access to key platform
features not available through traditional programming practices, for
example MMX and AMD 3DNow! registers and instructions.
e.. Compile-time attributes. C++ attributes provide a shorthand means of
writing highly tuned repetitive boilerplate code using a simple and robust
syntax.

=================

It would appear that VB's popularity stems from its 'simplicity', allowing
beginners to get up to speed quickly. It also produces 'pretty' code and
acts like a 'crutch' for writing correct syntax as it alerts the programmer
to an error on the go. Naturally I've found these features useful as it
tends to catch a lot of my oversights. And of course I'm very comfortable
programming in the VB environment (up to VB6 that is).

But now that I'm seriously considering 'upgrading' from VB6 to .NET (2002
already on my machine), and likely to upgrade to 2005, the time has come to
evaluate my language choice. As posted earlier, TIME IS VALUABLE and I don't
want to waste it. What will give me more ummph in the long run? According to
Microsoft, their C++ appears to fit that bill. So might as well bite the
learning curve bullet and learn this 'less than friendly' language in the
hopes of someday controlling more power in my applications with increased
experience. In other words, focus on the more difficult but more powerful
tool and get it under my belt as soon as possible. Yep, I'm a power freak
that has been out of the water since moving from C to VB4 many years ago.

Why post this here on a VB.NET newsgroup? Everyone here no doubt is biased
on VB.NET. Because I'm more interested in 'opposing' views overall as it
gives me a better idea as to whether I'm off my rock for even considering
this move. If I post this on a C++ newsgroup, they're all going to agree
with me and there goes more objective views.

So yes, I value the opinions of my fellow VB programmers as I have for years
prior. Your thoughts on what Microsoft has stated about their own product
would be appreciated.

TIA

Rick


"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:%2******************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Rick,

I have done assembler as well, that was fun, doing everything by yourself.
Those times are gone, we cannot make all those nice screens as they are
now by hazling with all those bytes..

However your main question. VBNet has one advantage over all those
languages you mention. It has the best IDE (what you call the visual
interface) and than it creates the smallest exe's, however that is only a
very small difference.

The speed between all Net languages (when used option strict on in VBNet)
is exactly the same.

I think that there is nothing more to say.

Cor

Nov 21 '05 #11

P: n/a
> Q. If you wanted to produce tight programs (smaller size) that runs fast,
and you wanted to get the project done in a short period of time, which
direction might you go? Will VB.NET fit this bill?
Program size is irelevant in .NET, since all the .NET languages compile to
IL and machine code. But as for the speed of application development, VB
has long been known as a RAD (rapid application development) platform.
Q. Will the answer from the first question also allow for a leg up in
learning other languages, such as getting 3 for 1 as Clinton states? This
is a secondary desire. My priority is with the first question.


If you truly understand OO concepts (inheritance, overloading, overriding,
shared members, sealed & abstract classes, etc.), you will find that going
from VB to Java or C# is not the big deal that Clinton is making it out to
be since these concepts are the same in all the OO languages we're talking
about.

Nov 21 '05 #12

P: n/a
I believe VB (Basic) has been around for over 40 years (used to be called
FORTRAN!

Just could be that C and C++ will slowly disappear and not VB!
--
Dennis in Houston
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" wrote:
Clinton,

Going on in your message (at the middle I go over more to the exact
subject). That people is in this century is speaking often English as
communication language is something that started in the previous century.

It has always be French and there is forever thought that it would stay
French.. Why would the world learn English which is only spoken by 8% of the
world population.

While new financial powers can be in the future China and/or India, which
uses languages that are spoken by much more people in the world.

You over estimate the role of the English language in the world as a lot of
English people do. The same is often done by only French or Russian speaking
people.

Don't forget that English is really a bad language when it is compared with
much other languages. (Not Dutch that is even worse).

And than coming back to your subject. This is in my opinion the same with
program languages. Don't see it only from your focus, it will probably
change. I got a nice message from somebody in the newsgroup General who
showed me this.

http://www.levenez.com/lang/history.html#01

This looks to me as something from the begin of the evolution, one of the
interesting things in it is that VB (Basic) together with Cobol has the
longest straight line.

You talk about AJAX (An in Europe famous Amsterdam football club (for you
soccer)).

Ken has set this sample on our website, I thought that it has as much
JScript as VBNet code in it.

http://www.vb-tips.com/default.aspx?...d-73214b27750c

I don't believe that the current languages will be used in future, as well
do I not believe that there will be one language in the world, as that in
the Bible is written there was before the time of the of the tower of
Babylon..

Just my thought,

Cor

Nov 21 '05 #13

P: n/a
Dennis,

As you can see in the scheme in my previous message is Fortran a kind of
mother of all symbolic languages. However it was very much based on algebra.

Cobol and Basic started more to be based on logic and description. (The
first part is of course as well algebra, the second less).

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #14

P: n/a
<snip />

This topic is not and was not meant to be about which language per se but
about which syntax and which grammar has become the defacto standard for
most languages that are being used at this point in time to develop most
applications for the most significant endeavor in the history of mankind's
efforts to involve themselves with a computer science. That is of course the
Internet manifested in a form useable by humans we know as the web and the
syntax and grammar that which has been derived from C in this context.

Blame Thompson and Ritchie if you must but there's no denying that the
legacy of C [1] has become the legacy of the web and this legacy is best
expressed in its totality in the client and an overwhelming presence on the
server by Java and C# as well as other languages that are very C-like.

This contention is and has been continually proven by Software Magazine's
annual surveys. This year -- again as I recall -- the most often used
languages as cited by survey respondents are Java followed by C#. To be
honest this confuses me as the classifieds rarely ask for C# when seeking
..NET developers. The classifieds it seems are almost always seeking VB.NET
developers. Not to denigrate VB anymore than it seems but I believe this
phenomena to be a hold over from the past (and current) success of VB itself
and the monkey-see monkey-do behavioral model present in most management
processes more so than the understanding of which syntax and language offers
the most efficient and highest use of one's resources and one's willingness
and ability to adapt to change to the current paradigm.

Actually, if there would be a single person to look to in this regard of the
legacy itself it would have to be Brendan Eich the author of JavaScript [2]
whose decision to reuse the C syntax and grammar has changed software
development as we know it, as again, it is the phenomena of the web that has
become the deciding factor and the legacy of C is rapidily becoming
prevalent. I think Google is making this point perfectly clear [3].

So again, I note many languages do not fit this paradigm and many languages
will continue to be used and new languages will continue to be developed.
Ruby comes to mind as I find a need to learn this language for certain
aspirations I hold in the practice of architecture where I was formally
educated, trained, and where much of my thinking processes have been
influenced by an immersion into classical thought and philosophy.

Regardless, that does not change the fundamental premise of my contentious
postulation, that being, in the course of time the VB syntax and grammar [4]
will continue to be killed softly by this song.

It is interesting to note the wikipedia disclaimer for those recoding the
history of Visual Basic [3]. That there are contentious and biased points of
view we all hold is of no question none of which however change the facts. I
like VB myself but one day I had the "learn three for the price of one"
epiphany and realized I was compelled to think pragmatically and was
therefore compelled to adopt the legacy provided to us by men such as
Thompson,Ritchie and Eich.

That's all there is to it for me as a person who happens to have what some
may call a deep insight if you will as I am rarely incorrect in my
prognostications. People that know me over a period of time have told me for
years I would do much better in the stock market and financial management
because I have an uncanny ability to see a trend early in the curve and call
which horse will win the race. But alas, I am a stubborn fool.

It is only because I am also a maverick that I have avoided that pursuit in
favor of my current endeavors which compel me to say "sorry fellas" because
it really looks like the VB syntax and grammar has seen its heyday [5],
Microsoft's efforts to retain the loyalty of VB developers not withstanding,
the VB syntax and grammar is in the process of becoming relegated to the
annals of history to take its place as second fiddle in this symphany of the
web where I find myself lucky enough to have found a seat in the orchestra
which I credit to my willingness to learn, my predilection towards change,
and my ability to read the sheet music which the conductor has made clear:
This symphany is to be played in the key of the legacy of C.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_programming_language
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javascript
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_programming_language
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_BASIC
Nov 21 '05 #15

P: n/a
Clinton,

I like JavaScript very much, it has some bad things, however it is a very
good scripting language.

You don't mention however the most important things from. JavaScript is
designed in the time that bandwide was almost a religion not to spare it.

And it was build to use inside the Netscape browser so it should be easy to
translate at runtime. Describe values as with a lot of languages are
important was absolute from no value in JavaScript.

Some things are not done because they are the best and they have a long
live. Did you see that schema that I showed you. I was curious about your
reaction on that. You see there a lot of program languages you maybe even
never heard of and which where a while defacto standards.

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #16

P: n/a
Clinton

It so happens that my business is prognostication of the Financial Markets
(ie. ProfitMax Trading Inc.). However, this ability does not carry over to
the realm of software direction. And so, knowing my skills well in the
forecasting of market price action in a field of critics, I will not be the
critic in your claims to see a 'trend' in the direction of programming but
RATHER to hope to gain some insight by asking you a simple questions:

Q. Is it your opinion based on what you perceive as the direction of
programming that learning the C language (or C++ ?) is the 'safe' approach
in order to be in the thick of future of software development?

Q. What 'flavor' of the most effective language to learn 'now' would you
recommend? (.NET or some other brand?)
Thanks Clinton

"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in message
news:uZ**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
<snip />

This topic is not and was not meant to be about which language per se but
about which syntax and which grammar has become the defacto standard for
most languages that are being used at this point in time to develop most
applications for the most significant endeavor in the history of mankind's
efforts to involve themselves with a computer science. That is of course
the Internet manifested in a form useable by humans we know as the web and
the syntax and grammar that which has been derived from C in this context.

Blame Thompson and Ritchie if you must but there's no denying that the
legacy of C [1] has become the legacy of the web and this legacy is best
expressed in its totality in the client and an overwhelming presence on
the server by Java and C# as well as other languages that are very C-like.

This contention is and has been continually proven by Software Magazine's
annual surveys. This year -- again as I recall -- the most often used
languages as cited by survey respondents are Java followed by C#. To be
honest this confuses me as the classifieds rarely ask for C# when seeking
.NET developers. The classifieds it seems are almost always seeking VB.NET
developers. Not to denigrate VB anymore than it seems but I believe this
phenomena to be a hold over from the past (and current) success of VB
itself and the monkey-see monkey-do behavioral model present in most
management processes more so than the understanding of which syntax and
language offers the most efficient and highest use of one's resources and
one's willingness and ability to adapt to change to the current paradigm.

Actually, if there would be a single person to look to in this regard of
the legacy itself it would have to be Brendan Eich the author of
JavaScript [2] whose decision to reuse the C syntax and grammar has
changed software development as we know it, as again, it is the phenomena
of the web that has become the deciding factor and the legacy of C is
rapidily becoming prevalent. I think Google is making this point perfectly
clear [3].

So again, I note many languages do not fit this paradigm and many
languages will continue to be used and new languages will continue to be
developed. Ruby comes to mind as I find a need to learn this language for
certain aspirations I hold in the practice of architecture where I was
formally educated, trained, and where much of my thinking processes have
been influenced by an immersion into classical thought and philosophy.

Regardless, that does not change the fundamental premise of my contentious
postulation, that being, in the course of time the VB syntax and grammar
[4] will continue to be killed softly by this song.

It is interesting to note the wikipedia disclaimer for those recoding the
history of Visual Basic [3]. That there are contentious and biased points
of view we all hold is of no question none of which however change the
facts. I like VB myself but one day I had the "learn three for the price
of one" epiphany and realized I was compelled to think pragmatically and
was therefore compelled to adopt the legacy provided to us by men such as
Thompson,Ritchie and Eich.

That's all there is to it for me as a person who happens to have what some
may call a deep insight if you will as I am rarely incorrect in my
prognostications. People that know me over a period of time have told me
for years I would do much better in the stock market and financial
management because I have an uncanny ability to see a trend early in the
curve and call which horse will win the race. But alas, I am a stubborn
fool.

It is only because I am also a maverick that I have avoided that pursuit
in favor of my current endeavors which compel me to say "sorry fellas"
because it really looks like the VB syntax and grammar has seen its heyday
[5], Microsoft's efforts to retain the loyalty of VB developers not
withstanding, the VB syntax and grammar is in the process of becoming
relegated to the annals of history to take its place as second fiddle in
this symphany of the web where I find myself lucky enough to have found a
seat in the orchestra which I credit to my willingness to learn, my
predilection towards change, and my ability to read the sheet music which
the conductor has made clear: This symphany is to be played in the key of
the legacy of C.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_programming_language
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javascript
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_programming_language
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_BASIC

Nov 21 '05 #17

P: n/a
Yes, I understand your point of view Cor and I agree with you and I've said
quite clearly several times throughout this topic that there will continue
to be a demand for many different languages and I also said more than once
in this topic that it looks like I am going to have to learn Ruby which is
obviously not a legacy C language.

The point is for this topic, the web can be broken down into two tiers; the
client and the server. JavaScript is the defacto standard on the client and
JavaScript syntax and grammar is derived from C. The current trend to
develop rich user interfaces requires a mastery of JavaScript as applied to
the DOM. That is why AJAX is so popular all of a sudden and is rapidly
becoming the measure of quality. Basically, we can thank Google for
promoting this functionality by simply publishing public APIs. So mark my
words Cor. One or two years from now any page that requies a PostBack page
flash is going to be considered to be developed by amateurs.

Now the tier on the server is much more divers supporting more choices
right? Java, PHP, C#, VB.NET and so on. All I've been saying is it certainly
seems that the economy of developing software requires adopting every
efficiency that can be learned and adopted. That is why I call my philosophy
"learn three for the price of one."

Since client-side development demands a mastery of the legacy C language as
manifested by Javascript it makes sense that those that make the decisions
where to spend their money and on which developers they will hire will also
learn to require and demand the use of a legacy C language on the server.
Basically, that means Java or C# and to some extent PHP although I consider
that a bit of a stretch. In time as I believe, the popularity and the demand
of the VB syntax and grammar will diminish.

Time will tell right?
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:On*************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Clinton,

I like JavaScript very much, it has some bad things, however it is a very
good scripting language.

You don't mention however the most important things from. JavaScript is
designed in the time that bandwide was almost a religion not to spare it.

And it was build to use inside the Netscape browser so it should be easy
to translate at runtime. Describe values as with a lot of languages are
important was absolute from no value in JavaScript.

Some things are not done because they are the best and they have a long
live. Did you see that schema that I showed you. I was curious about your
reaction on that. You see there a lot of program languages you maybe even
never heard of and which where a while defacto standards.

Cor

Nov 21 '05 #18

P: n/a
<snip />
Q. Is it your opinion based on what you perceive as the direction of
programming that learning the C language (or C++ ?) is the 'safe' approach
in order to be in the thick of future of software development?
It is my opinion that server-side development is increasingly becoming
dominated by the use of PHP, Java, or C# because all derive in part (PHP) or
in whole (Java and C#) from the legacy of C and as I think I've made clear
client-side development requires the mastery of JavaScript which
unquestionably derives from C. Thus the "learn three for the price of one"
philosophy (341 Trend) which I assert is starting to catch the attention of
those who pay the bills as they continue to consider the economics of
consolidation.
Q. What 'flavor' of the most effective language to learn 'now' would you
recommend? (.NET or some other brand?)


For .NET development I contend the best long range server-side strategy
demands the mastery of C# as it is nearly identical to Javascript which is
required for client-side development. C# also makes it a snap to read and
understand Java making it possible for a developer to easily collaborate
with Java developers or to show his or her C# code to an employer or a
client who understands code and the principles of the economy of scale and
whom may be considering hiring the C# developer to learn and adopt J2EE.

<snip />

P.S. Blame my mother in this one :-) When I was a young boy she enrolled me
in the Double Day Book of the Month Club and I ended up reading Asimov's
"Foundation Trilogy" -- twice -- and yearn for the time to read it again.
Asimov saw a future where advances in computer science and economies of
scale resulted in the outsourcing of human beings who were replaced by
automatons maintained and controlled by a single person. The name of the
game being the consolidation of any and all economies of scale.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
Nov 21 '05 #19

P: n/a
BASIC

Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

Controversy abounds. Emotions flare and people talk about what they know
nothing about. This is a volatile time for BASIC. There are only two
requirements for popularity when it comes to programming languages. The
first is speed of initial execution. The second is limitless possibilities.
BASIC has always provided both.

For many BASIC programmers speed has never been an issue. If you needed
greasy fast speed you wrote it and linked it. This is true from QB on.
Before that if you needed speed you Poked it with GWBasic, BasicA, or
whatever your flavor was.

Speed. How important!

I wrote all my Interaction/UI code in QB, I wrote my libraries in QuickC.
My QuickC libraries included a lot of inline Assembler because I needed
greasy fast speed and I couldn't count on the compiler to do it for me.
Especially when I needed BIOS calls.

Things have grown up, so have I. I was 14 back then. Now I'm 30. When I
look back I'm astounded. Even more I'm completely floored that the language
I started with can now do what it does.

Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

Beginners still holds true...amazingly though All-purpose has taken hold.
In the from of Visual Basic .Net you can do whatever you want. You can do
so much more than ever thought possible. Moreover, like the generations
before, if you need speed you get it somewhere else. Use Fastgraph for
graphics and DirectX, use FMod for sound. Use BASIC because you are
comfortable with it and it now gives you more power than you've ever had
before.

C#? Like it? Use it! The best advice I can give to anyone in this
industry is to enjoy the language you code in and make the most of it. That
is why BASIC continues to grow. People enjoy the language and make the most
of it.

BASIC as been around for a very long time and I'm proud to code in it. In
fact, the first Microsoft product was Altair BASIC built for the MITS Altair
8800. They released it in 1975, same year I was born, and I'm glad they
did! Ken.

"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in message
news:Ol**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Yes, I understand your point of view Cor and I agree with you and I've said quite clearly several times throughout this topic that there will continue
to be a demand for many different languages and I also said more than once
in this topic that it looks like I am going to have to learn Ruby which is
obviously not a legacy C language.

The point is for this topic, the web can be broken down into two tiers; the client and the server. JavaScript is the defacto standard on the client and JavaScript syntax and grammar is derived from C. The current trend to
develop rich user interfaces requires a mastery of JavaScript as applied to the DOM. That is why AJAX is so popular all of a sudden and is rapidly
becoming the measure of quality. Basically, we can thank Google for
promoting this functionality by simply publishing public APIs. So mark my
words Cor. One or two years from now any page that requies a PostBack page
flash is going to be considered to be developed by amateurs.

Now the tier on the server is much more divers supporting more choices
right? Java, PHP, C#, VB.NET and so on. All I've been saying is it certainly seems that the economy of developing software requires adopting every
efficiency that can be learned and adopted. That is why I call my philosophy "learn three for the price of one."

Since client-side development demands a mastery of the legacy C language as manifested by Javascript it makes sense that those that make the decisions
where to spend their money and on which developers they will hire will also learn to require and demand the use of a legacy C language on the server.
Basically, that means Java or C# and to some extent PHP although I consider that a bit of a stretch. In time as I believe, the popularity and the demand of the VB syntax and grammar will diminish.

Time will tell right?
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:On*************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Clinton,

I like JavaScript very much, it has some bad things, however it is a very good scripting language.

You don't mention however the most important things from. JavaScript is
designed in the time that bandwide was almost a religion not to spare it.
And it was build to use inside the Netscape browser so it should be easy
to translate at runtime. Describe values as with a lot of languages are
important was absolute from no value in JavaScript.

Some things are not done because they are the best and they have a long
live. Did you see that schema that I showed you. I was curious about your reaction on that. You see there a lot of program languages you maybe even never heard of and which where a while defacto standards.

Cor


Nov 21 '05 #20

P: n/a
Yes, I've read the Foundation series by Asimov myself years ago. Big Sci-fi
buff here.

Clinton, let's look at this from another angle.

I no longer serve a master (as in corporate america). Since 1996 I have
operated my own business that is more service but does have a few software
products. No servers originate from my office. Our website is simply renting
space on another's server. My programs are all client-side only.

Figuring to continue writing code that people can download and run locally
on their machine (since I have no server of my own and am not producing
programs for some corporation or another), my concern is mostly staying at
the forefront relative to what I do. I'm assuming that I should continue to
build programs that my customers can buy, download, install and run on their
PC's. I'm assuming that there really won't be any need for me to start
programming for a 'server' somewhere. Or am I shortsighted in your opinion?

My problem is that I don't finding myself becoming a dinosaur in technology.
That is why when each new version of VB came out I immediately upgraded.
That is why I use XP rather than 98.

But I don't want to waste time with a long learning curve if I can avoid it.
That is why I wish to be PROACTIVE.

When you speak of 'learn 1 for 3', that intrique me because it would save
time if done properly. So it is that ONE I'm trying to figure out.
Considering now that I've told you of my current circumstances, what would
my ONE to get 3 be? A mastery of Javascript? A mastery of C? C#?

I've never looked at Java, C#, ASP, etc. They're all foreign right now to
me. Have some 'C', Pascal, Fortran, Cobol, Assy experience (though a very
long, long time ago and it has faded in memory). Currently I'm just a VB guy
since 1994 whose no expert but gets by.

Obviously I value your opinion because I follow your logic. How do you see
this applying to what I am trying to do, avoiding being left behind as a
relic while working on what applies to my form of business?

Thanks.
Rick


"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in message
news:e9*************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
<snip />
Q. Is it your opinion based on what you perceive as the direction of
programming that learning the C language (or C++ ?) is the 'safe'
approach in order to be in the thick of future of software development?


It is my opinion that server-side development is increasingly becoming
dominated by the use of PHP, Java, or C# because all derive in part (PHP)
or in whole (Java and C#) from the legacy of C and as I think I've made
clear client-side development requires the mastery of JavaScript which
unquestionably derives from C. Thus the "learn three for the price of one"
philosophy (341 Trend) which I assert is starting to catch the attention
of those who pay the bills as they continue to consider the economics of
consolidation.
Q. What 'flavor' of the most effective language to learn 'now' would you
recommend? (.NET or some other brand?)


For .NET development I contend the best long range server-side strategy
demands the mastery of C# as it is nearly identical to Javascript which is
required for client-side development. C# also makes it a snap to read and
understand Java making it possible for a developer to easily collaborate
with Java developers or to show his or her C# code to an employer or a
client who understands code and the principles of the economy of scale and
whom may be considering hiring the C# developer to learn and adopt J2EE.

<snip />

P.S. Blame my mother in this one :-) When I was a young boy she enrolled
me in the Double Day Book of the Month Club and I ended up reading
Asimov's "Foundation Trilogy" -- twice -- and yearn for the time to read
it again. Asimov saw a future where advances in computer science and
economies of scale resulted in the outsourcing of human beings who were
replaced by automatons maintained and controlled by a single person. The
name of the game being the consolidation of any and all economies of
scale.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

Nov 21 '05 #21

P: n/a
<snip />

Oh, now that I understand more about your specific background and your
current skill set perhaps the best strategy would be migrating from VB to
VB.NET after all. I would consider it a smart move to go through the .NET
Framework learning curve using the VB syntax and grammar you are familiar
with. Are you familiar with what Microsoft calls the Smart Client?

<%= Clinton Gallagher

Nov 21 '05 #22

P: n/a
Clinton,
Time will tell right?

Right,

:-)

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #23

P: n/a
Clinton,

In my opinon do you hit here an important point.
It is my opinion that server-side development is increasingly becoming
dominated by the use of PHP, Java, or C# because all derive in part (PHP)
or in whole (Java and C#) from the legacy of C and as I think I've made
clear client-side development requires the mastery of JavaScript which
unquestionably derives from C. Thus the "learn three for the price of one"
philosophy (341 Trend) which I assert is starting to catch the attention
of those who pay the bills as they continue to consider the economics of
consolidation.


My expirience with people is that they don't like it when there are so many
dialects in one style of language or OS what is needed for almost lost
languages.

If you don't know what I mean with that, I give you the sample not of a
program language however about an OS. We have seen that with Unix (different
versions), AIX, Xenix or whatever there has been and still are. It gives
only misunderstandings, not advantages in the growth of those.

Visual Basic has in fact one current version and has only problems when
there is a big upgrading as now from VB6 to VB.Net, than it is strongly
going on. It is nog going in all directions because different people are
working on the evolution of the children.

Where the scripting VB languages are deriving from the main languages and
are not a dialect however a subset of that language.

However again as you said yourself, time will learn.

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #24

P: n/a
what is needed for almost lost languages.

I changed this sentence to much (this is what I meant)

what you can see as a reason why a lot of languages don't exist anymore.
Nov 21 '05 #25

P: n/a
"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> schrieb:
For .NET development I contend the best long range server-side strategy
demands the mastery of C# as it is nearly identical to Javascript which is
required for client-side development. C# also makes it a snap to read and
understand Java making it possible for a developer to easily collaborate
with Java developers or to show his or her C# code to an employer or a
client who understands code and the principles of the economy of scale and
whom may be considering hiring the C# developer to learn and adopt J2EE.


I have to disagree. Java and C# are similar, but they are still different.
C# and Java code are not interchangable. I remember that former VB6
developers had problems with using VB6 and VB.NET in parallel because both
languages were similar but different and thus things which worked in one of
them didn't work in the other programming language. This problem will
likely occur with C#/Java programmers too.

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 21 '05 #26

P: n/a
Clinton:

If you go back and read your posts, you'll find them peppered with words
like many and most quite often. You are stating your opinion as if it were
fact, and that is where I think the flaw in your argument lies.

Where did you come up with your assesment that the syntax of the web lies in
C or C based languages? This is not a fact, it is an opinion. If you
really want to get technical about it (and use some facts as well), the
syntax of the web is based in markup. HTML, XML and now XHTML (which all
stem from SGML) are the syntaxes, DTD's (and now Schemas) provide the
grammar.

What you are talking about is object-oriented programming languages that can
be used for server-side web application logic (but do not have to only be
used for this purpose). These languages do not have any inherant tie to the
web. There may be classes in their respective frameworks that aid in web
development, but the language itself is not client or server specific.

So, we come back to the question of which of these languages should one use
and the each have their own pro's and con's. Yes, it's true that C, C++,
Java, C# and J# share in much of their actual language syntax. So, yes it is
true that learning one of these would give you a leg up in learning the
others. But, I think your opinion has missed the mark when you go on to
isolate VB and seem to say that if one were to learn VB, they would not have
gotten the 3 for 1 that you might get from learning, say Java. If you learn
VB .NET thoughroughly and understand it, you should have no problem at all
picking up on some of the different syntax (and here's the important part)
for the SAME behaviors available in VB .NET.

As I stated in my first reply, history has something to say about your
postulation that VB will go away. Throughout all the incarnations of the
Web, the fact that Java has now been around for a decade (JavaScript a bit
longer) and VB is not only "still here, stumbling along", but it is better
than ever. Couple this with the fact that there really isn't anything that
you can do in Java or C# that can't be done in VB .NET and you may begin to
think; "Why should I bother learning a cryptic, punctuation-oriented,
case-sensitve language, when I can learn VB .NET (RAD) and work in a very
powerful IDE?".

-Scott
"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in message
news:uZ**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
<snip />

This topic is not and was not meant to be about which language per se but
about which syntax and which grammar has become the defacto standard for
most languages that are being used at this point in time to develop most
applications for the most significant endeavor in the history of mankind's
efforts to involve themselves with a computer science. That is of course
the Internet manifested in a form useable by humans we know as the web and
the syntax and grammar that which has been derived from C in this context.

Blame Thompson and Ritchie if you must but there's no denying that the
legacy of C [1] has become the legacy of the web and this legacy is best
expressed in its totality in the client and an overwhelming presence on
the server by Java and C# as well as other languages that are very C-like.

This contention is and has been continually proven by Software Magazine's
annual surveys. This year -- again as I recall -- the most often used
languages as cited by survey respondents are Java followed by C#. To be
honest this confuses me as the classifieds rarely ask for C# when seeking
.NET developers. The classifieds it seems are almost always seeking VB.NET
developers. Not to denigrate VB anymore than it seems but I believe this
phenomena to be a hold over from the past (and current) success of VB
itself and the monkey-see monkey-do behavioral model present in most
management processes more so than the understanding of which syntax and
language offers the most efficient and highest use of one's resources and
one's willingness and ability to adapt to change to the current paradigm.

Actually, if there would be a single person to look to in this regard of
the legacy itself it would have to be Brendan Eich the author of
JavaScript [2] whose decision to reuse the C syntax and grammar has
changed software development as we know it, as again, it is the phenomena
of the web that has become the deciding factor and the legacy of C is
rapidily becoming prevalent. I think Google is making this point perfectly
clear [3].

So again, I note many languages do not fit this paradigm and many
languages will continue to be used and new languages will continue to be
developed. Ruby comes to mind as I find a need to learn this language for
certain aspirations I hold in the practice of architecture where I was
formally educated, trained, and where much of my thinking processes have
been influenced by an immersion into classical thought and philosophy.

Regardless, that does not change the fundamental premise of my contentious
postulation, that being, in the course of time the VB syntax and grammar
[4] will continue to be killed softly by this song.

It is interesting to note the wikipedia disclaimer for those recoding the
history of Visual Basic [3]. That there are contentious and biased points
of view we all hold is of no question none of which however change the
facts. I like VB myself but one day I had the "learn three for the price
of one" epiphany and realized I was compelled to think pragmatically and
was therefore compelled to adopt the legacy provided to us by men such as
Thompson,Ritchie and Eich.

That's all there is to it for me as a person who happens to have what some
may call a deep insight if you will as I am rarely incorrect in my
prognostications. People that know me over a period of time have told me
for years I would do much better in the stock market and financial
management because I have an uncanny ability to see a trend early in the
curve and call which horse will win the race. But alas, I am a stubborn
fool.

It is only because I am also a maverick that I have avoided that pursuit
in favor of my current endeavors which compel me to say "sorry fellas"
because it really looks like the VB syntax and grammar has seen its heyday
[5], Microsoft's efforts to retain the loyalty of VB developers not
withstanding, the VB syntax and grammar is in the process of becoming
relegated to the annals of history to take its place as second fiddle in
this symphany of the web where I find myself lucky enough to have found a
seat in the orchestra which I credit to my willingness to learn, my
predilection towards change, and my ability to read the sheet music which
the conductor has made clear: This symphany is to be played in the key of
the legacy of C.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_programming_language
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javascript
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_programming_language
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_BASIC

Nov 21 '05 #27

P: n/a
> This is a volatile time for BASIC.

Just to be clear though, BASIC is gone. Visual Basic is not the nearly the
same thing.

-Scott
"Ken Dopierala Jr." <kd*********@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Oz**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
BASIC

Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

Controversy abounds. Emotions flare and people talk about what they know
nothing about. This is a volatile time for BASIC. There are only two
requirements for popularity when it comes to programming languages. The
first is speed of initial execution. The second is limitless
possibilities.
BASIC has always provided both.

For many BASIC programmers speed has never been an issue. If you needed
greasy fast speed you wrote it and linked it. This is true from QB on.
Before that if you needed speed you Poked it with GWBasic, BasicA, or
whatever your flavor was.

Speed. How important!

I wrote all my Interaction/UI code in QB, I wrote my libraries in QuickC.
My QuickC libraries included a lot of inline Assembler because I needed
greasy fast speed and I couldn't count on the compiler to do it for me.
Especially when I needed BIOS calls.

Things have grown up, so have I. I was 14 back then. Now I'm 30. When I
look back I'm astounded. Even more I'm completely floored that the
language
I started with can now do what it does.

Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code

Beginners still holds true...amazingly though All-purpose has taken hold.
In the from of Visual Basic .Net you can do whatever you want. You can do
so much more than ever thought possible. Moreover, like the generations
before, if you need speed you get it somewhere else. Use Fastgraph for
graphics and DirectX, use FMod for sound. Use BASIC because you are
comfortable with it and it now gives you more power than you've ever had
before.

C#? Like it? Use it! The best advice I can give to anyone in this
industry is to enjoy the language you code in and make the most of it.
That
is why BASIC continues to grow. People enjoy the language and make the
most
of it.

BASIC as been around for a very long time and I'm proud to code in it. In
fact, the first Microsoft product was Altair BASIC built for the MITS
Altair
8800. They released it in 1975, same year I was born, and I'm glad they
did! Ken.

"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in message
news:Ol**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Yes, I understand your point of view Cor and I agree with you and I've

said
quite clearly several times throughout this topic that there will
continue
to be a demand for many different languages and I also said more than
once
in this topic that it looks like I am going to have to learn Ruby which
is
obviously not a legacy C language.

The point is for this topic, the web can be broken down into two tiers;

the
client and the server. JavaScript is the defacto standard on the client

and
JavaScript syntax and grammar is derived from C. The current trend to
develop rich user interfaces requires a mastery of JavaScript as applied

to
the DOM. That is why AJAX is so popular all of a sudden and is rapidly
becoming the measure of quality. Basically, we can thank Google for
promoting this functionality by simply publishing public APIs. So mark my
words Cor. One or two years from now any page that requies a PostBack
page
flash is going to be considered to be developed by amateurs.

Now the tier on the server is much more divers supporting more choices
right? Java, PHP, C#, VB.NET and so on. All I've been saying is it

certainly
seems that the economy of developing software requires adopting every
efficiency that can be learned and adopted. That is why I call my

philosophy
"learn three for the price of one."

Since client-side development demands a mastery of the legacy C language

as
manifested by Javascript it makes sense that those that make the
decisions
where to spend their money and on which developers they will hire will

also
learn to require and demand the use of a legacy C language on the server.
Basically, that means Java or C# and to some extent PHP although I

consider
that a bit of a stretch. In time as I believe, the popularity and the

demand
of the VB syntax and grammar will diminish.

Time will tell right?
<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:On*************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> Clinton,
>
> I like JavaScript very much, it has some bad things, however it is a very > good scripting language.
>
> You don't mention however the most important things from. JavaScript is
> designed in the time that bandwide was almost a religion not to spare it. >
> And it was build to use inside the Netscape browser so it should be
> easy
> to translate at runtime. Describe values as with a lot of languages are
> important was absolute from no value in JavaScript.
>
> Some things are not done because they are the best and they have a long
> live. Did you see that schema that I showed you. I was curious about your > reaction on that. You see there a lot of program languages you maybe even > never heard of and which where a while defacto standards.
>
> Cor
>



Nov 21 '05 #28

P: n/a
"Are you familiar with what Microsoft calls the Smart Client?"

No. Here's a bit more background as it appears to help me get a bearing on
which way to go.

My career has been mostly in hardware troubleshooting and putting together
large and small scale systems. Over the years they kept getting smaller and
smaller as you know (desktops). So during the latter period of my career I
started self-learning 'C' and wrote just a small number of simple
applications. Using Borland C. Also during this time I learned Delphi and
may have written a small program or two. Never became an expert in either.
Delved into C++ when it was being touted as the 'better C' with OOP and all.
Now I'm not sure what the deal is with OOP.

In 1994 I was introduced to VB4 and have been in that camp since then...up
to the present with VB6. The prior languages seem now to be a distant
memory. I am not able to just pop out a 'C' app quickly like I used to be
able to do. Delphi is even more a passing memory.

Since 1996 I retired from the computer field to concentrate full-time in
Market Forecasting, having developed some extraordinary forecasting programs
that are powerful and unique. So of course I continue to program (in VB) to
put my ideas into data producing applications. When I have a theory about
the markets I wish to test out, I can QUICKLY put together a VB application
to do it. I'd say that VB is certainly a RAD environment without a doubt.

But technology is moving along quickly and I feel I'm losing touch with it.
Although my career path is much different now, I still have a passion for
computers and mostly on the programming side. Going back to 1973, it remains
in your blood as they say.

So I guess all my questions these last few days is trying to find the best
route to take that will allow me to stay sharp in the programming realm.
Your 3 for 1 post started my thinking along these lines because there just
isn't enough time in the day to learn everything the hard way. If I can
learn something that will make learning other important concepts or
languages much easier, that is what I want. Perhaps I will or will not need
to deviate from VB6. I do not know. But I do want to learn new things.

But Clinton, I do have some things I need that does go with my business. For
one, PROGRAM SIZE and PROGRAM SPEED are two very big issues for me. You see,
my clients have to download my programs from my website. They do not all
have high-speed internet service (several older clients are using the slow
dial-up). In addition, some of my applications are data intensive. They
churn and churn, crunch and crunch, and we are left having to wait for the
results to pop on the screen. So SPEED is another important issue.

Now I do not recall whether C would produce smaller code or not than VB. I
kind of recall the argument some years back that once you have the runtime
on your machine, all you need is the small .exe from VB. C on the other
hand produces a bigger .exe file. This still the case? Or am I mistaken to
begin with?

When I programmed in 'C' back in early 90's, I used Borland. So I did not
have Visual C and never have tried it. Naturally plopping a form on the
screen and placing controls on it attracted me with Delphi and then VB
because now I'm putting out apps faster than before. But did I sacrifice
speed? Did I sacrifice program size?

I've said alot above (sorry). Do you still feel that VB.NET is the 3 for 1
direction for what I need now and in the future (in your opinion)?

TIA

Rick


"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in message
news:eJ*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
<snip />

Oh, now that I understand more about your specific background and your
current skill set perhaps the best strategy would be migrating from VB to
VB.NET after all. I would consider it a smart move to go through the .NET
Framework learning curve using the VB syntax and grammar you are familiar
with. Are you familiar with what Microsoft calls the Smart Client?

<%= Clinton Gallagher


Nov 21 '05 #29

P: n/a
I understand you Cor -- most of the time -- :-) and don't think you need to
bother with typos as most of us make typo errors and they rarely change the
meaning of what people are trying to say.

<%= Clinton Gallagher

"Cor Ligthert [MVP]" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:e5**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
what is needed for almost lost languages.

I changed this sentence to much (this is what I meant)

what you can see as a reason why a lot of languages don't exist anymore.

Nov 21 '05 #30

P: n/a
Well Scott, keeping it light here but I think it is your rebuttal that is
flawed -- if anything -- your rebuttal seems to be based on conveniently
forgetting that it was C that was used to write the *nix operating systems
from which the Internet and the web evolved. Without the fundamental
recognition of that fact the entire focus of the topic gets lost on those
who want to discuss the capabilities of a given language.

Please note the entire topic is about one phenomena and only one phenomena
which has nothing to do with the capabilities of any language or any
framework for that matter. The topic is about syntax and grammar and only
syntax and grammar and how the trend to consolidate on a single syntax and
grammar which happens to have its roots in the legacy of the C language is a
trend that will in due time erode the use of languages such as VB which do
not use syntax and grammar which has been derived from C. That trend is
occuring because of the return of the primary focus to client-side
development.

I did not mean to convey VB will go away but I do believe in the course of
time the economy VB provides with its RAD features will likely be
over-shadowed by the need to write more and more client-side code which will
erode the utility value of VB because client-side code requires a mastery of
the legacy of C and the use of JavaScript. So when someone asks...
Why should I bother learning a cryptic, punctuation-oriented,
case-sensitve language, when I can learn VB .NET (RAD) and work in a very
powerful IDE?".
The short answer may very well prove to be that your job may depend on it.

<%= Clinton Gallagher



"Scott M." <s-***@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:%2***************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... Clinton:

If you go back and read your posts, you'll find them peppered with words
like many and most quite often. You are stating your opinion as if it
were fact, and that is where I think the flaw in your argument lies.

Where did you come up with your assesment that the syntax of the web lies
in C or C based languages? This is not a fact, it is an opinion. If you
really want to get technical about it (and use some facts as well), the
syntax of the web is based in markup. HTML, XML and now XHTML (which all
stem from SGML) are the syntaxes, DTD's (and now Schemas) provide the
grammar.

What you are talking about is object-oriented programming languages that
can be used for server-side web application logic (but do not have to only
be used for this purpose). These languages do not have any inherant tie
to the web. There may be classes in their respective frameworks that aid
in web development, but the language itself is not client or server
specific.

So, we come back to the question of which of these languages should one
use and the each have their own pro's and con's. Yes, it's true that C,
C++, Java, C# and J# share in much of their actual language syntax. So,
yes it is true that learning one of these would give you a leg up in
learning the others. But, I think your opinion has missed the mark when
you go on to isolate VB and seem to say that if one were to learn VB, they
would not have gotten the 3 for 1 that you might get from learning, say
Java. If you learn VB .NET thoughroughly and understand it, you should
have no problem at all picking up on some of the different syntax (and
here's the important part) for the SAME behaviors available in VB .NET.

As I stated in my first reply, history has something to say about your
postulation that VB will go away. Throughout all the incarnations of the
Web, the fact that Java has now been around for a decade (JavaScript a bit
longer) and VB is not only "still here, stumbling along", but it is better
than ever. Couple this with the fact that there really isn't anything
that you can do in Java or C# that can't be done in VB .NET and you may
begin to think; "Why should I bother learning a cryptic,
punctuation-oriented, case-sensitve language, when I can learn VB .NET
(RAD) and work in a very powerful IDE?".

-Scott
"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in message
news:uZ**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
<snip />

This topic is not and was not meant to be about which language per se but
about which syntax and which grammar has become the defacto standard for
most languages that are being used at this point in time to develop most
applications for the most significant endeavor in the history of
mankind's efforts to involve themselves with a computer science. That is
of course the Internet manifested in a form useable by humans we know as
the web and the syntax and grammar that which has been derived from C in
this context.

Blame Thompson and Ritchie if you must but there's no denying that the
legacy of C [1] has become the legacy of the web and this legacy is best
expressed in its totality in the client and an overwhelming presence on
the server by Java and C# as well as other languages that are very
C-like.

This contention is and has been continually proven by Software Magazine's
annual surveys. This year -- again as I recall -- the most often used
languages as cited by survey respondents are Java followed by C#. To be
honest this confuses me as the classifieds rarely ask for C# when seeking
.NET developers. The classifieds it seems are almost always seeking
VB.NET developers. Not to denigrate VB anymore than it seems but I
believe this phenomena to be a hold over from the past (and current)
success of VB itself and the monkey-see monkey-do behavioral model
present in most management processes more so than the understanding of
which syntax and language offers the most efficient and highest use of
one's resources and one's willingness and ability to adapt to change to
the current paradigm.

Actually, if there would be a single person to look to in this regard of
the legacy itself it would have to be Brendan Eich the author of
JavaScript [2] whose decision to reuse the C syntax and grammar has
changed software development as we know it, as again, it is the phenomena
of the web that has become the deciding factor and the legacy of C is
rapidily becoming prevalent. I think Google is making this point
perfectly clear [3].

So again, I note many languages do not fit this paradigm and many
languages will continue to be used and new languages will continue to be
developed. Ruby comes to mind as I find a need to learn this language for
certain aspirations I hold in the practice of architecture where I was
formally educated, trained, and where much of my thinking processes have
been influenced by an immersion into classical thought and philosophy.

Regardless, that does not change the fundamental premise of my
contentious postulation, that being, in the course of time the VB syntax
and grammar [4] will continue to be killed softly by this song.

It is interesting to note the wikipedia disclaimer for those recoding the
history of Visual Basic [3]. That there are contentious and biased points
of view we all hold is of no question none of which however change the
facts. I like VB myself but one day I had the "learn three for the price
of one" epiphany and realized I was compelled to think pragmatically and
was therefore compelled to adopt the legacy provided to us by men such as
Thompson,Ritchie and Eich.

That's all there is to it for me as a person who happens to have what
some may call a deep insight if you will as I am rarely incorrect in my
prognostications. People that know me over a period of time have told me
for years I would do much better in the stock market and financial
management because I have an uncanny ability to see a trend early in the
curve and call which horse will win the race. But alas, I am a stubborn
fool.

It is only because I am also a maverick that I have avoided that pursuit
in favor of my current endeavors which compel me to say "sorry fellas"
because it really looks like the VB syntax and grammar has seen its
heyday [5], Microsoft's efforts to retain the loyalty of VB developers
not withstanding, the VB syntax and grammar is in the process of becoming
relegated to the annals of history to take its place as second fiddle in
this symphany of the web where I find myself lucky enough to have found a
seat in the orchestra which I credit to my willingness to learn, my
predilection towards change, and my ability to read the sheet music which
the conductor has made clear: This symphany is to be played in the key of
the legacy of C.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_programming_language
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javascript
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_programming_language
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_BASIC


Nov 21 '05 #31

P: n/a

"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in message
news:Oy**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Well Scott, keeping it light here but I think it is your rebuttal that is
flawed -- if anything -- your rebuttal seems to be based on conveniently
forgetting that it was C that was used to write the *nix operating systems
from which the Internet and the web evolved. Without the fundamental
recognition of that fact the entire focus of the topic gets lost on those
who want to discuss the capabilities of a given language.
Hold on a sec here Clinton. What you've just said here is completely
irrelevant since Tim Berners-Lee's intent and the way the Internet has
evolved was to be platform-independant and not tied to any particular host.
There is nothing in the SGML/HTML/XML language(s) and/or DTD's that even
remotely suggest a platform, much less a preference for a compiled language.
In fact, by design, the web was built to work without regard for platform.
The only requirements were that you had to have an HTML parser and the
ability to communication over TCP/IP.

LiveScript was a proprietary, interpreted language that was an extension
added to the standard HTML parser embedded within Netscape 2.0. Livescript
was so popular, that Netscape enhanced and formalized its "macro language"
for the browser as JavaScript. Now, if we're going to get specific here and
keep to the facts, then let's be clear that ECMA Script is the de-facto
standard scripting lanague of the web, not necessarially JavaScript.
Please note the entire topic is about one phenomena and only one phenomena
which has nothing to do with the capabilities of any language or any
framework for that matter. The topic is about syntax and grammar and only
syntax and grammar and how the trend to consolidate on a single syntax and
grammar which happens to have its roots in the legacy of the C language is
a trend that will in due time erode the use of languages such as VB which
do not use syntax and grammar which has been derived from C. That trend is
occuring because of the return of the primary focus to client-side
development.
But, I think that you've missed your own point here. This is not the first
time in this thread that you've tried to set someone straight on what the
"topic" at hand is and then set your own definition for that "topic". To
dismiss the comments of others that don't specifically fall into your narrow
definition of what the topic is (in your view) would probably be unwise,
since those comments are being made to give you another perspective.

If you want to limit the discussion to the fact the Java, JavaScript, C#, J#
(and others) derive from C and their syntaxes are fairly similar and you
simply want to say that learning one of these is a fast road to learning the
others, then fine. It's a little like saying that water is wet, though.

My impression of your post was outside of what you are now stating your
point was.
I did not mean to convey VB will go away but I do believe in the course of
time the economy VB provides with its RAD features will likely be
over-shadowed by the need to write more and more client-side code which
will erode the utility value of VB because client-side code requires a
mastery of the legacy of C and the use of JavaScript. So when someone
asks...
Well, I think you've missed my point here. Try to follow: If someone were
to have mastered VB .NET (understand its syntax, the full range of OO
capabilities is offeres, etc.), it is NOT very difficult at all to go to a
language like C#, Java or JavaScript because, although I might now use the
semi-colon and curly brace a hell of a lot more than I ever did in VB .NET,
I still have to write well-performing, clear and concise code. It's not
brain surgeroy to learn a new language, when you already know the equivelant
concepts (and in some situations: syntax). VB.NET: "me" equates to
Java/javascript: "this".

More on this below.
Why should I bother learning a cryptic, punctuation-oriented,
case-sensitve language, when I can learn VB .NET (RAD) and work in a very
powerful IDE?".


The short answer may very well prove to be that your job may depend on it.


I think you should have just said in the begining:

"Client-side code is/has becomming/become more and more important to web
development as each day passes. Having good skills there will be crucial to
presentation layer web development in the future. If you have a background
in C-like languages, you should have an leg-up in learning the de-facto ECMA
Script language of client-side web development."

and not invited any responses to your post. But, that's not what you said.
You brought in and questioned the VB language's future role in web
development as a whole and what I've simply been trying to say is that what
you are making out to be a hard thing (going from C-like languages to VB and
vice/versa) isn't the hard thing that you've been saying it is. My point is
that if you are a good OO programmer, you shouldn't have much of a problem
at all. My secondary point was to say that although VB.NET may stick out as
a lone, non-C-like language, its past and present would seem to indicate
that as far as server-side programming is concerned it is anything but being
eroded. If anything, it is taking market share away from those C-like
languages you have been talking about. Sure C# is very popular, but there
are now thousands of Java developers who are taking a look at something they
never would have dreamed of before, VB.NET and using it for its many
advantages over the J2EE development environment. Again, the fact that
those Java developers have to learn new syntax is besides-the-point if they
already are familiar with OO concepts and good programming practices.

Just my opinion...I could be wrong.

-Scott :)


<%= Clinton Gallagher



"Scott M." <s-***@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:%2***************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Clinton:

If you go back and read your posts, you'll find them peppered with words
like many and most quite often. You are stating your opinion as if it
were fact, and that is where I think the flaw in your argument lies.

Where did you come up with your assesment that the syntax of the web lies
in C or C based languages? This is not a fact, it is an opinion. If you
really want to get technical about it (and use some facts as well), the
syntax of the web is based in markup. HTML, XML and now XHTML (which all
stem from SGML) are the syntaxes, DTD's (and now Schemas) provide the
grammar.

What you are talking about is object-oriented programming languages that
can be used for server-side web application logic (but do not have to
only be used for this purpose). These languages do not have any inherant
tie to the web. There may be classes in their respective frameworks that
aid in web development, but the language itself is not client or server
specific.

So, we come back to the question of which of these languages should one
use and the each have their own pro's and con's. Yes, it's true that C,
C++, Java, C# and J# share in much of their actual language syntax. So,
yes it is true that learning one of these would give you a leg up in
learning the others. But, I think your opinion has missed the mark when
you go on to isolate VB and seem to say that if one were to learn VB,
they would not have gotten the 3 for 1 that you might get from learning,
say Java. If you learn VB .NET thoughroughly and understand it, you
should have no problem at all picking up on some of the different syntax
(and here's the important part) for the SAME behaviors available in VB
.NET.

As I stated in my first reply, history has something to say about your
postulation that VB will go away. Throughout all the incarnations of the
Web, the fact that Java has now been around for a decade (JavaScript a
bit longer) and VB is not only "still here, stumbling along", but it is
better than ever. Couple this with the fact that there really isn't
anything that you can do in Java or C# that can't be done in VB .NET and
you may begin to think; "Why should I bother learning a cryptic,
punctuation-oriented, case-sensitve language, when I can learn VB .NET
(RAD) and work in a very powerful IDE?".

-Scott
"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in
message news:uZ**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
<snip />

This topic is not and was not meant to be about which language per se
but about which syntax and which grammar has become the defacto standard
for most languages that are being used at this point in time to develop
most applications for the most significant endeavor in the history of
mankind's efforts to involve themselves with a computer science. That is
of course the Internet manifested in a form useable by humans we know as
the web and the syntax and grammar that which has been derived from C in
this context.

Blame Thompson and Ritchie if you must but there's no denying that the
legacy of C [1] has become the legacy of the web and this legacy is best
expressed in its totality in the client and an overwhelming presence on
the server by Java and C# as well as other languages that are very
C-like.

This contention is and has been continually proven by Software
Magazine's annual surveys. This year -- again as I recall -- the most
often used languages as cited by survey respondents are Java followed by
C#. To be honest this confuses me as the classifieds rarely ask for C#
when seeking .NET developers. The classifieds it seems are almost always
seeking VB.NET developers. Not to denigrate VB anymore than it seems but
I believe this phenomena to be a hold over from the past (and current)
success of VB itself and the monkey-see monkey-do behavioral model
present in most management processes more so than the understanding of
which syntax and language offers the most efficient and highest use of
one's resources and one's willingness and ability to adapt to change to
the current paradigm.

Actually, if there would be a single person to look to in this regard of
the legacy itself it would have to be Brendan Eich the author of
JavaScript [2] whose decision to reuse the C syntax and grammar has
changed software development as we know it, as again, it is the
phenomena of the web that has become the deciding factor and the legacy
of C is rapidily becoming prevalent. I think Google is making this point
perfectly clear [3].

So again, I note many languages do not fit this paradigm and many
languages will continue to be used and new languages will continue to be
developed. Ruby comes to mind as I find a need to learn this language
for certain aspirations I hold in the practice of architecture where I
was formally educated, trained, and where much of my thinking processes
have been influenced by an immersion into classical thought and
philosophy.

Regardless, that does not change the fundamental premise of my
contentious postulation, that being, in the course of time the VB syntax
and grammar [4] will continue to be killed softly by this song.

It is interesting to note the wikipedia disclaimer for those recoding
the history of Visual Basic [3]. That there are contentious and biased
points of view we all hold is of no question none of which however
change the facts. I like VB myself but one day I had the "learn three
for the price of one" epiphany and realized I was compelled to think
pragmatically and was therefore compelled to adopt the legacy provided
to us by men such as Thompson,Ritchie and Eich.

That's all there is to it for me as a person who happens to have what
some may call a deep insight if you will as I am rarely incorrect in my
prognostications. People that know me over a period of time have told me
for years I would do much better in the stock market and financial
management because I have an uncanny ability to see a trend early in the
curve and call which horse will win the race. But alas, I am a stubborn
fool.

It is only because I am also a maverick that I have avoided that pursuit
in favor of my current endeavors which compel me to say "sorry fellas"
because it really looks like the VB syntax and grammar has seen its
heyday [5], Microsoft's efforts to retain the loyalty of VB developers
not withstanding, the VB syntax and grammar is in the process of
becoming relegated to the annals of history to take its place as second
fiddle in this symphany of the web where I find myself lucky enough to
have found a seat in the orchestra which I credit to my willingness to
learn, my predilection towards change, and my ability to read the sheet
music which the conductor has made clear: This symphany is to be played
in the key of the legacy of C.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_programming_language
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javascript
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_programming_language
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_BASIC



Nov 21 '05 #32

P: n/a
symphony

"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in message
news:uZ**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
<snip />

This topic is not and was not meant to be about which language per se but
about which syntax and which grammar has become the defacto standard for
most languages that are being used at this point in time to develop most
applications for the most significant endeavor in the history of mankind's
efforts to involve themselves with a computer science. That is of course the Internet manifested in a form useable by humans we know as the web and the
syntax and grammar that which has been derived from C in this context.

Blame Thompson and Ritchie if you must but there's no denying that the
legacy of C [1] has become the legacy of the web and this legacy is best
expressed in its totality in the client and an overwhelming presence on the server by Java and C# as well as other languages that are very C-like.

This contention is and has been continually proven by Software Magazine's
annual surveys. This year -- again as I recall -- the most often used
languages as cited by survey respondents are Java followed by C#. To be
honest this confuses me as the classifieds rarely ask for C# when seeking
.NET developers. The classifieds it seems are almost always seeking VB.NET
developers. Not to denigrate VB anymore than it seems but I believe this
phenomena to be a hold over from the past (and current) success of VB itself and the monkey-see monkey-do behavioral model present in most management
processes more so than the understanding of which syntax and language offers the most efficient and highest use of one's resources and one's willingness and ability to adapt to change to the current paradigm.

Actually, if there would be a single person to look to in this regard of the legacy itself it would have to be Brendan Eich the author of JavaScript [2] whose decision to reuse the C syntax and grammar has changed software
development as we know it, as again, it is the phenomena of the web that has become the deciding factor and the legacy of C is rapidily becoming
prevalent. I think Google is making this point perfectly clear [3].

So again, I note many languages do not fit this paradigm and many languages will continue to be used and new languages will continue to be developed.
Ruby comes to mind as I find a need to learn this language for certain
aspirations I hold in the practice of architecture where I was formally
educated, trained, and where much of my thinking processes have been
influenced by an immersion into classical thought and philosophy.

Regardless, that does not change the fundamental premise of my contentious
postulation, that being, in the course of time the VB syntax and grammar [4] will continue to be killed softly by this song.

It is interesting to note the wikipedia disclaimer for those recoding the
history of Visual Basic [3]. That there are contentious and biased points of view we all hold is of no question none of which however change the facts. I like VB myself but one day I had the "learn three for the price of one"
epiphany and realized I was compelled to think pragmatically and was
therefore compelled to adopt the legacy provided to us by men such as
Thompson,Ritchie and Eich.

That's all there is to it for me as a person who happens to have what some
may call a deep insight if you will as I am rarely incorrect in my
prognostications. People that know me over a period of time have told me for years I would do much better in the stock market and financial management
because I have an uncanny ability to see a trend early in the curve and call which horse will win the race. But alas, I am a stubborn fool.

It is only because I am also a maverick that I have avoided that pursuit in favor of my current endeavors which compel me to say "sorry fellas" because it really looks like the VB syntax and grammar has seen its heyday [5],
Microsoft's efforts to retain the loyalty of VB developers not withstanding, the VB syntax and grammar is in the process of becoming relegated to the
annals of history to take its place as second fiddle in this symphany of the web where I find myself lucky enough to have found a seat in the orchestra
which I credit to my willingness to learn, my predilection towards change,
and my ability to read the sheet music which the conductor has made clear:
This symphany is to be played in the key of the legacy of C.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_programming_language
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javascript
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_programming_language
[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_BASIC

Nov 21 '05 #33

P: n/a
Actually, now I don't think VB.NET will prove as useful as it seemed. While
your already familiar with the VB syntax and grammar you have to learn OOP
as applied to the .NET Framework. The stumbling block is the fact that the
customer would have to have the .NET Framework installed on their machine or
download the framework which is 20MB. We can deploy the framework with the
application itself but it still weighs 20MB plus the weight of the
application. Bad news for dial-up customers.

On the other hand, C/C++ applications do not require the framework and run
fast but I don't know if you want to spend what could take perhaps a year to
learn the Windows 32 API and master all of the build and deployment issues
involved. Using VB6 was much much easier it seems as the run-time was much
lighter. Microsoft has stated they will continue to support VB6 but there
will be no more updates as I understand it.

So you're in a real pickle.

One of the reasons I've been so supportive of the learn three for the price
of one philosophy (341) is because I picked up on two trends early on. The
first trend was hosted applications that run on the web which was a business
model that was not seen by many as viable when the .com era crashed and
burned. By 'many' I mean those that controlled the funding who for the most
part did not understand computer science, never did, and clearly never will
because the second trend is the resurgence of hosted applications proving
the naysayers dead wrong. The rapid adoption of AJAX is already spawing all
kinds of hosted applications and this trend will explode over the next
couple of years. The point is in this regard, the use of asynchronous
methods written using JavaScript and an XML data structure enables web
applications to be developed to look and feel like Windows applications
reducing the appearance of trips back to the server to refresh the page. It
is an allusion in some regards but an important allusion.

So it seems you can get out of the pickel if you can develop hosted
applications. The SmartClient architecture I referred to is somewhat of a
hybrid. On the one hand it is a Windows application and on the other it
interacts with the web to update itself for example. Still, SmartClient
architecture requires the .NET framework on the desktop so your right back
to the pickle.

Now it you learned C# and the .NET Framework and sold hosted applications
you could enjoy the benefits of 341 as the trend for web development is as
I've stated as the use of asynchronous JavaScript XML is written in legacy C
syntax and grammar allowing a developer to optimize their time. That's
really all 341 is about. The consolidation of one's time by using a single
syntax and grammar for both server-side and client-side development.

VB.NET is just as useful as C# on the server but what of all of the
client-side JavaScript that must be learned and mastered? There's a division
of labor in that regard that I contend is greatly reduced or goes away
entirely when using C# rather than VB.NET and with the trend towards an
asynchronous application architecture the 341 philosophy will likely become
a matter of greater concern to a greater number of developers that consider
341 in the context I have put forth.

<%= Clinton Gallagher
"ProfitMaxTrading.com" <no****@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:F4Q6f.5939$xE1.2886@okepread07...
"Are you familiar with what Microsoft calls the Smart Client?"

No. Here's a bit more background as it appears to help me get a bearing on
which way to go.

My career has been mostly in hardware troubleshooting and putting together
large and small scale systems. Over the years they kept getting smaller
and smaller as you know (desktops). So during the latter period of my
career I started self-learning 'C' and wrote just a small number of simple
applications. Using Borland C. Also during this time I learned Delphi and
may have written a small program or two. Never became an expert in either.
Delved into C++ when it was being touted as the 'better C' with OOP and
all. Now I'm not sure what the deal is with OOP.

In 1994 I was introduced to VB4 and have been in that camp since then...up
to the present with VB6. The prior languages seem now to be a distant
memory. I am not able to just pop out a 'C' app quickly like I used to be
able to do. Delphi is even more a passing memory.

Since 1996 I retired from the computer field to concentrate full-time in
Market Forecasting, having developed some extraordinary forecasting
programs that are powerful and unique. So of course I continue to program
(in VB) to put my ideas into data producing applications. When I have a
theory about the markets I wish to test out, I can QUICKLY put together a
VB application to do it. I'd say that VB is certainly a RAD environment
without a doubt.

But technology is moving along quickly and I feel I'm losing touch with
it. Although my career path is much different now, I still have a passion
for computers and mostly on the programming side. Going back to 1973, it
remains in your blood as they say.

So I guess all my questions these last few days is trying to find the best
route to take that will allow me to stay sharp in the programming realm.
Your 3 for 1 post started my thinking along these lines because there just
isn't enough time in the day to learn everything the hard way. If I can
learn something that will make learning other important concepts or
languages much easier, that is what I want. Perhaps I will or will not
need to deviate from VB6. I do not know. But I do want to learn new
things.

But Clinton, I do have some things I need that does go with my business.
For one, PROGRAM SIZE and PROGRAM SPEED are two very big issues for me.
You see, my clients have to download my programs from my website. They do
not all have high-speed internet service (several older clients are using
the slow dial-up). In addition, some of my applications are data
intensive. They churn and churn, crunch and crunch, and we are left having
to wait for the results to pop on the screen. So SPEED is another
important issue.

Now I do not recall whether C would produce smaller code or not than VB. I
kind of recall the argument some years back that once you have the runtime
on your machine, all you need is the small .exe from VB. C on the other
hand produces a bigger .exe file. This still the case? Or am I mistaken to
begin with?

When I programmed in 'C' back in early 90's, I used Borland. So I did not
have Visual C and never have tried it. Naturally plopping a form on the
screen and placing controls on it attracted me with Delphi and then VB
because now I'm putting out apps faster than before. But did I sacrifice
speed? Did I sacrifice program size?

I've said alot above (sorry). Do you still feel that VB.NET is the 3 for 1
direction for what I need now and in the future (in your opinion)?

TIA

Rick


"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in message
news:eJ*************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
<snip />

Oh, now that I understand more about your specific background and your
current skill set perhaps the best strategy would be migrating from VB to
VB.NET after all. I would consider it a smart move to go through the .NET
Framework learning curve using the VB syntax and grammar you are familiar
with. Are you familiar with what Microsoft calls the Smart Client?

<%= Clinton Gallagher



Nov 21 '05 #34

P: n/a
<snip />

You make some very valid points and yes I agree I should be referring to
JavaScript as ECMAScript. However when you say...
Just my opinion...I could be wrong.


I couldn't agree more. :-)

Have you not observed the phenomena of developers who are highly skilled
trying to give a presentation using C# when they spend most of their time in
VB.NET and vice a versa? It is almost hilarious. Our personal preferences
emerge as matters of convenience, habit, and our prediliction for one thing
or another. When we try to extend ourselves into another realm our thought
processes bounce back and forth, we stumble around and often give up only to
settle with what we are most comfortable with. For example...

Surely you have seen The Godfather Part II? Michael meets Tatalia the pimp
and the corrupt cop in the restaurant. They try to speak in Sicilian
presumably because neither wants the cop to understand what they are
discussing. Michael has spent most of his life speaking English and
struggles with the Sicilian syntax and the grammar, becomes frustrated
because he is not achieving his objective and reverts by blurting out what
he is trying to say in English. Then of course he goes to the bathroom and
comes back with a gun and shoots both of the VB developers he was having
dinner with a few moments earlier :-)

When it comes to web development I am arguing that we can avoid this
frustrating phenomena if we adopt the use of a single syntax and grammar.

<%= Clinton Gallagher

Nov 21 '05 #35

P: n/a

clintonG wrote:
Have you not observed the phenomena of developers who are highly skilled
trying to give a presentation using C# when they spend most of their time in
VB.NET and vice a versa? It is almost hilarious. Our personal preferences
emerge as matters of convenience, habit, and our prediliction for one thing
or another. When we try to extend ourselves into another realm our thought
processes bounce back and forth, we stumble around and often give up only to
settle with what we are most comfortable with. For example...
That is completely untrue to lay forth as a generalization. The point
that Scott was trying to make is more of a statement of if you
understand the underlying fundamentals of development, languages are
just tools that you can use. Syntax differences between languages is
actually quite trivial, for 90% of all languages out there.

I am equally comfortable and skilled with either VB.Net or C#. What
drives my choice? Most often it is requirements for a project. Being
able to completely understand more than one of the languages in the
VS.Net family is not as uncommon as you have been led to believe.

Yes, preference is involved. I prefer the "look" of C# code, but the
fact that I can crank out the code in VB.Net faster. A lot of times,
this leads to prototyping in VB.Net and developing in C#.
When it comes to web development I am arguing that we can avoid this
frustrating phenomena if we adopt the use of a single syntax and grammar.


You seem to be the one that is frustrated. The whole concept of "one
language" whether for web development or any other type of development
is not going to happen anytime soon - and for good reason! Languages
are created, driven, and implemented by specific needs. That is not to
say that what you can do in one, you can't do in another (although it
can!). Javascript, for example, is an integral part of AJAX,
obviously. Are you going to write the web services in JavaScript?

Regardless of what people are being fed in the latest issue of SD
Times, AJAX will not be the end-all of other types of application
development. There will always be the need for a diverse variety of
applications. If I need to feed a large amount of data into a
statistical analysis engine, why would the client want to do it in a
browser? Sure they might, but the users (the people who ultimately
sign the checks) aren't the buzzword groupies that developers (and
other IT folks) tend to be. For my last client, we had an AJAX driven
intranet site that would allow traders on the floor of the Stock
Exchange to directly access portfolios and perform reporting and
statistical analysis of trends. In implementation, the AJAX part that
is used from the client is a very small part of the overall coding
effort. It is just a presentation layer. The code behind the calls is
the business layer, and the business layer is almost always more
complex.

As an aside, you should always have as strong a background in as
diverse a skillset as possible without diminishing any single one of
them. In other words, don't put all of you money on a single language,
idiom, methodolgy, etc. if you want to have security in the industry.

Rant off,

Joseph

Nov 21 '05 #36

P: n/a
> Have you not observed the phenomena of developers who are highly skilled
trying to give a presentation using C# when they spend most of their time
in VB.NET and vice a versa? It is almost hilarious. Our personal
preferences emerge as matters of convenience, habit, and our prediliction
for one thing or another. When we try to extend ourselves into another
realm our thought processes bounce back and forth, we stumble around and
often give up only to settle with what we are most comfortable with. For
example...


No, I haven't. The fact that you have doesn't say anything about an
industry or a language in general (it might say more about the quality of
the "highly skilled" developers you are referring to).

Nov 21 '05 #37

P: n/a
I haven't been feeling well the last two days. I've made my point and you
and others have made yours. So its time to move on okay? Time will tell
ainna?

<%= Clinton Gallagher

"Scott M." <No****@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:OA**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Have you not observed the phenomena of developers who are highly skilled
trying to give a presentation using C# when they spend most of their time
in VB.NET and vice a versa? It is almost hilarious. Our personal
preferences emerge as matters of convenience, habit, and our prediliction
for one thing or another. When we try to extend ourselves into another
realm our thought processes bounce back and forth, we stumble around and
often give up only to settle with what we are most comfortable with. For
example...


No, I haven't. The fact that you have doesn't say anything about an
industry or a language in general (it might say more about the quality of
the "highly skilled" developers you are referring to).

Nov 21 '05 #38

P: n/a
You asked a question. I was just answering.

Hope you are feeling better.

:)

"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in message
news:uU**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
I haven't been feeling well the last two days. I've made my point and you
and others have made yours. So its time to move on okay? Time will tell
ainna?

<%= Clinton Gallagher

"Scott M." <No****@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:OA**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Have you not observed the phenomena of developers who are highly skilled
trying to give a presentation using C# when they spend most of their
time in VB.NET and vice a versa? It is almost hilarious. Our personal
preferences emerge as matters of convenience, habit, and our
prediliction for one thing or another. When we try to extend ourselves
into another realm our thought processes bounce back and forth, we
stumble around and often give up only to settle with what we are most
comfortable with. For example...


No, I haven't. The fact that you have doesn't say anything about an
industry or a language in general (it might say more about the quality of
the "highly skilled" developers you are referring to).


Nov 21 '05 #39

P: n/a
Thanks. Too much coffee. It feels like I've burned a hole in my esophagus.
Must be because I code using legacy C syntax and grammar :-)
See you around...

<%= Clinton Gallagher

"Scott M." <No****@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
You asked a question. I was just answering.

Hope you are feeling better.

:)

"clintonG" <cs*********@REMOVETHISTEXTmetromilwaukee.com> wrote in message
news:uU**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
I haven't been feeling well the last two days. I've made my point and you
and others have made yours. So its time to move on okay? Time will tell
ainna?

<%= Clinton Gallagher

"Scott M." <No****@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:OA**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Have you not observed the phenomena of developers who are highly
skilled trying to give a presentation using C# when they spend most of
their time in VB.NET and vice a versa? It is almost hilarious. Our
personal preferences emerge as matters of convenience, habit, and our
prediliction for one thing or another. When we try to extend ourselves
into another realm our thought processes bounce back and forth, we
stumble around and often give up only to settle with what we are most
comfortable with. For example...

No, I haven't. The fact that you have doesn't say anything about an
industry or a language in general (it might say more about the quality
of the "highly skilled" developers you are referring to).



Nov 21 '05 #40

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