How are things done where you work?

[Brett]

I'd like to know what management and the work environment are like where you
work. I need something relative to compare my current work environment.
Here's a few questions I have:

1.) Is it normal for (technical) management (actually 1 of 2 co owners) to
constantly interrupt developers all day with with questions such as:
"can we look at this",
"I found this, can we try it now",
"Can we see what these guys are doing",
"can we change the color of this just for now"
and so on?

2.) Is it normal for developers to bounce around on little tiny projects all
day or stick to one or two large projects and work with their team?

We use no type of source control, management won't buy new software, there
are no standards in our development b/c management won't efforce them, we
shoot from the hip with planning, developers aren't comp'd anything for
efforts. Obviously I'm looking for another job but want to make sure my
expectations aren't to high. I believe my current work environment is a
disaster. I didn't think that when I joined but as I've improved, I feel
now this place will just degrade my skills. I want to be rewarded for
effort and also need to be around developers that have much experience, good
programming practicies, and can easily leave me in the dust (better than me
in other words). I'm sure there are plenty of places like that.

Comments in general are welcome.

Thanks,
Brett

[Peter Proost]

Hi Brett, where I work we have got an it-team of 6:
5 programmers and 1 one network admin. One of the programmers is "head" of
IT, but it's more a title than anything else, about important things we
always consult each other. So it isn't like somebody want's to buy some new
program and just buys it. We have the privilege that the main management
trusts us, therefor we haven't realy got a budget but we buy what need. So
they trust us and we don't abuse it. There also isn't supervising like you
describe it, ofcourse we try to set dates by what time a project needs to be
finished, but if for example we can't get that deadline nobody gets blaimed
unless it's realy somebody's fault. But I'm very aware that it isn't like
this in all company's, I've got the adavantage that my company isn't a
software selling company, so we write software for internal use and for our
distributors only and therefor there isn't to much time pressure. We also
work on one or two projects at time but mostly one because they're large
projects but sometimes ofcourse we have to do smaller projects in between.
We also use our own controls/classes library so all projects use the same
controls and all projects or programmed in more or less the same way.
Ofcourse not everything is super here. We also haven't got any form of
compensation for extra efforts which is a bit a shame because some people
here do work a lot harder and programm better than others but we all get
paid the same wage and we are a bit underrespected. There are also some
other problems but I can't discust them here. But in general I feel happy
here at work and I'm sure you'll find a better working environment than the
one where you work now. Ofcourse there will always be things that can be
better or are better at other places but you have to consider the pro's and
con's. But I think you haven't got you're expectations up to high, compared
to my working situation.

Greetz Peter and good luck

--
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build big
ger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.

"Brett" <[e-mail]> schreef in bericht
news:#9**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

I'd like to know what management and the work environment are like where you work. I need something relative to compare my current work environment.
Here's a few questions I have:

1.) Is it normal for (technical) management (actually 1 of 2 co owners) to
constantly interrupt developers all day with with questions such as:
"can we look at this",
"I found this, can we try it now",
"Can we see what these guys are doing",
"can we change the color of this just for now"
and so on?

2.) Is it normal for developers to bounce around on little tiny projects all day or stick to one or two large projects and work with their team?

We use no type of source control, management won't buy new software, there
are no standards in our development b/c management won't efforce them, we
shoot from the hip with planning, developers aren't comp'd anything for
efforts. Obviously I'm looking for another job but want to make sure my
expectations aren't to high. I believe my current work environment is a
disaster. I didn't think that when I joined but as I've improved, I feel
now this place will just degrade my skills. I want to be rewarded for
effort and also need to be around developers that have much experience, good programming practicies, and can easily leave me in the dust (better than me in other words). I'm sure there are plenty of places like that.

Comments in general are welcome.

Thanks,
Brett

[Brett]

At least it sounds as though I'm being practical with my expectations.
Thanks.

Great tag line.

Brett

"Peter Proost" <pp*****@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eY*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

Hi Brett, where I work we have got an it-team of 6:
5 programmers and 1 one network admin. One of the programmers is "head" of
IT, but it's more a title than anything else, about important things we
always consult each other. So it isn't like somebody want's to buy some
new
program and just buys it. We have the privilege that the main management
trusts us, therefor we haven't realy got a budget but we buy what need. So
they trust us and we don't abuse it. There also isn't supervising like you
describe it, ofcourse we try to set dates by what time a project needs to
be
finished, but if for example we can't get that deadline nobody gets
blaimed
unless it's realy somebody's fault. But I'm very aware that it isn't like
this in all company's, I've got the adavantage that my company isn't a
software selling company, so we write software for internal use and for
our
distributors only and therefor there isn't to much time pressure. We also
work on one or two projects at time but mostly one because they're large
projects but sometimes ofcourse we have to do smaller projects in between.
We also use our own controls/classes library so all projects use the same
controls and all projects or programmed in more or less the same way.
Ofcourse not everything is super here. We also haven't got any form of
compensation for extra efforts which is a bit a shame because some people
here do work a lot harder and programm better than others but we all get
paid the same wage and we are a bit underrespected. There are also some
other problems but I can't discust them here. But in general I feel happy
here at work and I'm sure you'll find a better working environment than
the
one where you work now. Ofcourse there will always be things that can be
better or are better at other places but you have to consider the pro's
and
con's. But I think you haven't got you're expectations up to high,
compared
to my working situation.

Greetz Peter and good luck

--
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
big
ger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.

"Brett" <[e-mail]> schreef in bericht
news:#9**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

I'd like to know what management and the work environment are like where

you

work. I need something relative to compare my current work environment.
Here's a few questions I have:

1.) Is it normal for (technical) management (actually 1 of 2 co owners)
to
constantly interrupt developers all day with with questions such as:
"can we look at this",
"I found this, can we try it now",
"Can we see what these guys are doing",
"can we change the color of this just for now"
and so on?

2.) Is it normal for developers to bounce around on little tiny projects

all

day or stick to one or two large projects and work with their team?

We use no type of source control, management won't buy new software,
there
are no standards in our development b/c management won't efforce them, we
shoot from the hip with planning, developers aren't comp'd anything for
efforts. Obviously I'm looking for another job but want to make sure my
expectations aren't to high. I believe my current work environment is a
disaster. I didn't think that when I joined but as I've improved, I feel
now this place will just degrade my skills. I want to be rewarded for
effort and also need to be around developers that have much experience,

good

programming practicies, and can easily leave me in the dust (better than

me

in other words). I'm sure there are plenty of places like that.

Comments in general are welcome.

Thanks,
Brett

[Brett]

By the way, which country do you work in?

Thanks,
Brett

"Peter Proost" <pp*****@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eY*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

Hi Brett, where I work we have got an it-team of 6:
5 programmers and 1 one network admin. One of the programmers is "head" of
IT, but it's more a title than anything else, about important things we
always consult each other. So it isn't like somebody want's to buy some
new
program and just buys it. We have the privilege that the main management
trusts us, therefor we haven't realy got a budget but we buy what need. So
they trust us and we don't abuse it. There also isn't supervising like you
describe it, ofcourse we try to set dates by what time a project needs to
be
finished, but if for example we can't get that deadline nobody gets
blaimed
unless it's realy somebody's fault. But I'm very aware that it isn't like
this in all company's, I've got the adavantage that my company isn't a
software selling company, so we write software for internal use and for
our
distributors only and therefor there isn't to much time pressure. We also
work on one or two projects at time but mostly one because they're large
projects but sometimes ofcourse we have to do smaller projects in between.
We also use our own controls/classes library so all projects use the same
controls and all projects or programmed in more or less the same way.
Ofcourse not everything is super here. We also haven't got any form of
compensation for extra efforts which is a bit a shame because some people
here do work a lot harder and programm better than others but we all get
paid the same wage and we are a bit underrespected. There are also some
other problems but I can't discust them here. But in general I feel happy
here at work and I'm sure you'll find a better working environment than
the
one where you work now. Ofcourse there will always be things that can be
better or are better at other places but you have to consider the pro's
and
con's. But I think you haven't got you're expectations up to high,
compared
to my working situation.

Greetz Peter and good luck

--
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
big
ger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.

"Brett" <[e-mail]> schreef in bericht
news:#9**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

I'd like to know what management and the work environment are like where

you

work. I need something relative to compare my current work environment.
Here's a few questions I have:

1.) Is it normal for (technical) management (actually 1 of 2 co owners)
to
constantly interrupt developers all day with with questions such as:
"can we look at this",
"I found this, can we try it now",
"Can we see what these guys are doing",
"can we change the color of this just for now"
and so on?

2.) Is it normal for developers to bounce around on little tiny projects

all

day or stick to one or two large projects and work with their team?

We use no type of source control, management won't buy new software,
there
are no standards in our development b/c management won't efforce them, we
shoot from the hip with planning, developers aren't comp'd anything for
efforts. Obviously I'm looking for another job but want to make sure my
expectations aren't to high. I believe my current work environment is a
disaster. I didn't think that when I joined but as I've improved, I feel
now this place will just degrade my skills. I want to be rewarded for
effort and also need to be around developers that have much experience,

good

programming practicies, and can easily leave me in the dust (better than

me

in other words). I'm sure there are plenty of places like that.

Comments in general are welcome.

Thanks,
Brett

[Peter Proost]

I'm working in Belgium and you?

Greetz Peter

--
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
"Brett" <[e-mail]> schreef in bericht
news:#c**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

By the way, which country do you work in?

Thanks,
Brett

"Peter Proost" <pp*****@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eY*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

Hi Brett, where I work we have got an it-team of 6:
5 programmers and 1 one network admin. One of the programmers is "head" of IT, but it's more a title than anything else, about important things we
always consult each other. So it isn't like somebody want's to buy some
new
program and just buys it. We have the privilege that the main management
trusts us, therefor we haven't realy got a budget but we buy what need. So they trust us and we don't abuse it. There also isn't supervising like you describe it, ofcourse we try to set dates by what time a project needs to be
finished, but if for example we can't get that deadline nobody gets
blaimed
unless it's realy somebody's fault. But I'm very aware that it isn't like this in all company's, I've got the adavantage that my company isn't a
software selling company, so we write software for internal use and for
our
distributors only and therefor there isn't to much time pressure. We also work on one or two projects at time but mostly one because they're large
projects but sometimes ofcourse we have to do smaller projects in between. We also use our own controls/classes library so all projects use the same controls and all projects or programmed in more or less the same way.
Ofcourse not everything is super here. We also haven't got any form of
compensation for extra efforts which is a bit a shame because some people here do work a lot harder and programm better than others but we all get
paid the same wage and we are a bit underrespected. There are also some
other problems but I can't discust them here. But in general I feel happy here at work and I'm sure you'll find a better working environment than
the
one where you work now. Ofcourse there will always be things that can be
better or are better at other places but you have to consider the pro's
and
con's. But I think you haven't got you're expectations up to high,
compared
to my working situation.

Greetz Peter and good luck

--
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
big
ger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.

"Brett" <[e-mail]> schreef in bericht
news:#9**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

I'd like to know what management and the work environment are like where

you

work. I need something relative to compare my current work

environment. Here's a few questions I have:

1.) Is it normal for (technical) management (actually 1 of 2 co owners)
to
constantly interrupt developers all day with with questions such as:
"can we look at this",
"I found this, can we try it now",
"Can we see what these guys are doing",
"can we change the color of this just for now"
and so on?

2.) Is it normal for developers to bounce around on little tiny projects all

day or stick to one or two large projects and work with their team?

We use no type of source control, management won't buy new software,
there
are no standards in our development b/c management won't efforce them,

we shoot from the hip with planning, developers aren't comp'd anything for
efforts. Obviously I'm looking for another job but want to make sure my expectations aren't to high. I believe my current work environment is a disaster. I didn't think that when I joined but as I've improved, I feel now this place will just degrade my skills. I want to be rewarded for
effort and also need to be around developers that have much experience,

good

programming practicies, and can easily leave me in the dust (better

than me

in other words). I'm sure there are plenty of places like that.

Comments in general are welcome.

Thanks,
Brett

[Cor Ligthert]

Brett,

More in general.

1.) Is it normal for (technical) management (actually 1 of 2 co owners) to
constantly interrupt developers all day with with questions such as:
"can we look at this",
Yes
"I found this, can we try it now",
Yes
"Can we see what these guys are doing",
Yes
"can we change the color of this just for now"
Yes
and so on?
Yes

2.) Is it normal for developers to bounce around on little tiny projects
all day or stick to one or two large projects and work with their team?

Yes
We use no type of source control, management won't buy new software, there
are no standards in our development b/c management won't efforce them, we
shoot from the hip with planning, developers aren't comp'd anything for
efforts. Obviously I'm looking for another job but want to make sure my
expectations aren't to high. I believe my current work environment is a
disaster. I didn't think that when I joined but as I've improved, I feel
now this place will just degrade my skills. I want to be rewarded for
effort and also need to be around developers that have much experience,
good programming practicies, and can easily leave me in the dust (better
than me in other words). I'm sure there are plenty of places like that.

Don't be to optimistic there are probably more managers who know nothing
than there are who are real pro's. A problem can be that the real pro's have
the same managers as you describe.

Try to find the skills to avoid that.

One of those I learned as one of the first in a kind of same environment as
you described. Make a little error in what you make, that is easy to
correct. However it should be seen directly. When it is seen, tell that it
is very difficult to change. Don't forget to give compliments until they are
sick from it and never tell that you did make it express.

Although when it is to hard, than try to change and to experience yourself
what is the best environment for you. Sometimes are there advantages working
in an environment as you describe where the managers are nulls in your area
of skills.

However, when you are young, than is my advice. Try to move, you learn to
slow in such an amateur environment as you now describe.

Just my thought,

Cor

[Brett]

United States.

"Peter Proost" <pp*****@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uG**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

I'm working in Belgium and you?

Greetz Peter

--
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
"Brett" <[e-mail]> schreef in bericht
news:#c**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

By the way, which country do you work in?

Thanks,
Brett

"Peter Proost" <pp*****@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eY*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

> Hi Brett, where I work we have got an it-team of 6:
> 5 programmers and 1 one network admin. One of the programmers is "head" of > IT, but it's more a title than anything else, about important things we
> always consult each other. So it isn't like somebody want's to buy some
> new
> program and just buys it. We have the privilege that the main
> management
> trusts us, therefor we haven't realy got a budget but we buy what need. So > they trust us and we don't abuse it. There also isn't supervising like you > describe it, ofcourse we try to set dates by what time a project needs to > be
> finished, but if for example we can't get that deadline nobody gets
> blaimed
> unless it's realy somebody's fault. But I'm very aware that it isn't like > this in all company's, I've got the adavantage that my company isn't a
> software selling company, so we write software for internal use and for
> our
> distributors only and therefor there isn't to much time pressure. We also > work on one or two projects at time but mostly one because they're
> large
> projects but sometimes ofcourse we have to do smaller projects in between. > We also use our own controls/classes library so all projects use the same > controls and all projects or programmed in more or less the same way.
> Ofcourse not everything is super here. We also haven't got any form of
> compensation for extra efforts which is a bit a shame because some people > here do work a lot harder and programm better than others but we all
> get
> paid the same wage and we are a bit underrespected. There are also some
> other problems but I can't discust them here. But in general I feel happy > here at work and I'm sure you'll find a better working environment than
> the
> one where you work now. Ofcourse there will always be things that can
> be
> better or are better at other places but you have to consider the pro's
> and
> con's. But I think you haven't got you're expectations up to high,
> compared
> to my working situation.
>
> Greetz Peter and good luck
>
> --
> Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to
> build
> big
> ger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
> bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
>
> "Brett" <[e-mail]> schreef in bericht
> news:#9**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> I'd like to know what management and the work environment are like where > you
>> work. I need something relative to compare my current work environment. >> Here's a few questions I have:
>>
>> 1.) Is it normal for (technical) management (actually 1 of 2 co
>> owners)
>> to
>> constantly interrupt developers all day with with questions such as:
>> "can we look at this",
>> "I found this, can we try it now",
>> "Can we see what these guys are doing",
>> "can we change the color of this just for now"
>> and so on?
>>
>> 2.) Is it normal for developers to bounce around on little tiny projects > all
>> day or stick to one or two large projects and work with their team?
>>
>> We use no type of source control, management won't buy new software,
>> there
>> are no standards in our development b/c management won't efforce them, we >> shoot from the hip with planning, developers aren't comp'd anything
>> for
>> efforts. Obviously I'm looking for another job but want to make sure my >> expectations aren't to high. I believe my current work environment is a >> disaster. I didn't think that when I joined but as I've improved, I feel >> now this place will just degrade my skills. I want to be rewarded for
>> effort and also need to be around developers that have much
>> experience,
> good
>> programming practicies, and can easily leave me in the dust (better than > me
>> in other words). I'm sure there are plenty of places like that.
>>
>> Comments in general are welcome.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brett
>>
>>
>
>

[Brett]

"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:eK**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

Brett,

More in general.

1.) Is it normal for (technical) management (actually 1 of 2 co owners)
to constantly interrupt developers all day with with questions such as:
"can we look at this",
Yes

"I found this, can we try it now",

Yes

"Can we see what these guys are doing",

Yes

"can we change the color of this just for now"

Yes

and so on?

Yes

2.) Is it normal for developers to bounce around on little tiny projects
all day or stick to one or two large projects and work with their team?

Yes

We use no type of source control, management won't buy new software,
there are no standards in our development b/c management won't efforce
them, we shoot from the hip with planning, developers aren't comp'd
anything for efforts. Obviously I'm looking for another job but want to
make sure my expectations aren't to high. I believe my current work
environment is a disaster. I didn't think that when I joined but as I've
improved, I feel now this place will just degrade my skills. I want to
be rewarded for effort and also need to be around developers that have
much experience, good programming practicies, and can easily leave me in
the dust (better than me in other words). I'm sure there are plenty of
places like that.

Don't be to optimistic there are probably more managers who know nothing
than there are who are real pro's. A problem can be that the real pro's
have the same managers as you describe.

Try to find the skills to avoid that.

One of those I learned as one of the first in a kind of same environment
as you described. Make a little error in what you make, that is easy to
correct. However it should be seen directly. When it is seen, tell that it
is very difficult to change. Don't forget to give compliments until they
are sick from it and never tell that you did make it express.

I'm not sure what you mean here. You are saying to cause a problem on
purpose but make it looks like an accident? Then let other people fix the
error and give them compliments when they do?

Although when it is to hard, than try to change and to experience yourself
what is the best environment for you. Sometimes are there advantages
working in an environment as you describe where the managers are nulls in
your area of skills.

However, when you are young, than is my advice. Try to move, you learn to
slow in such an amateur environment as you now describe.

Just my thought,

Cor

[Peter Proost]

Hi I think Cor ment that your boss would see it and that you would say it's
good he noticed it and then you pretend it's very difficult to fix but you
know it's very easy and nevertheless you get all the credit for fixing it
:-)

If that's not what Cor ment he'll correct me :-)

Greetz Peter

--
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
"Brett" <[e-mail]> schreef in bericht
news:OW**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...

"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:eK**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

Brett,

More in general.

1.) Is it normal for (technical) management (actually 1 of 2 co owners)
to constantly interrupt developers all day with with questions such as:
"can we look at this",

Yes

"I found this, can we try it now",

Yes

"Can we see what these guys are doing",

Yes

"can we change the color of this just for now"

Yes

and so on?

Yes

2.) Is it normal for developers to bounce around on little tiny projects all day or stick to one or two large projects and work with their team?

Yes

We use no type of source control, management won't buy new software,
there are no standards in our development b/c management won't efforce
them, we shoot from the hip with planning, developers aren't comp'd
anything for efforts. Obviously I'm looking for another job but want to make sure my expectations aren't to high. I believe my current work
environment is a disaster. I didn't think that when I joined but as I've improved, I feel now this place will just degrade my skills. I want to
be rewarded for effort and also need to be around developers that have
much experience, good programming practicies, and can easily leave me in the dust (better than me in other words). I'm sure there are plenty of
places like that.

Don't be to optimistic there are probably more managers who know nothing
than there are who are real pro's. A problem can be that the real pro's
have the same managers as you describe.

Try to find the skills to avoid that.

One of those I learned as one of the first in a kind of same environment
as you described. Make a little error in what you make, that is easy to
correct. However it should be seen directly. When it is seen, tell that it is very difficult to change. Don't forget to give compliments until they
are sick from it and never tell that you did make it express.

I'm not sure what you mean here. You are saying to cause a problem on
purpose but make it looks like an accident? Then let other people fix the
error and give them compliments when they do?

Although when it is to hard, than try to change and to experience yourself what is the best environment for you. Sometimes are there advantages
working in an environment as you describe where the managers are nulls in your area of skills.

However, when you are young, than is my advice. Try to move, you learn to slow in such an amateur environment as you now describe.

Just my thought,

Cor

[Brett]

Well, since it is software and my boss doesn't write software, I'll have to
bring it to his attention. Actually, I've already done a number of those.
I'm the only one here programming in .NET and has knowledge of OOP. This is
a Coldfusion house. One day I decided to do something in VB.NET to
accomplish an MS Office task. They liked it and I've been able to use
VB.NET to solve quite a few problems here that I'm not sure how they would
have done otherwise.

Brett

"Peter Proost" <pp*****@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uO**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

Hi I think Cor ment that your boss would see it and that you would say
it's
good he noticed it and then you pretend it's very difficult to fix but you
know it's very easy and nevertheless you get all the credit for fixing it
:-)

If that's not what Cor ment he'll correct me :-)

Greetz Peter

--
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.
"Brett" <[e-mail]> schreef in bericht
news:OW**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...

"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:eK**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

> Brett,
>
> More in general.
>>
>> 1.) Is it normal for (technical) management (actually 1 of 2 co
>> owners)
>> to constantly interrupt developers all day with with questions such
>> as:
>> "can we look at this",
>
> Yes
>
>> "I found this, can we try it now",
>
> Yes
>
>> "Can we see what these guys are doing",
>
> Yes
>
>> "can we change the color of this just for now"
>
> Yes
>
>> and so on?
>
> Yes
>
>>
>> 2.) Is it normal for developers to bounce around on little tiny projects >> all day or stick to one or two large projects and work with their
>> team?
>>
>
> Yes
>
>> We use no type of source control, management won't buy new software,
>> there are no standards in our development b/c management won't efforce
>> them, we shoot from the hip with planning, developers aren't comp'd
>> anything for efforts. Obviously I'm looking for another job but want to >> make sure my expectations aren't to high. I believe my current work
>> environment is a disaster. I didn't think that when I joined but as I've >> improved, I feel now this place will just degrade my skills. I want
>> to
>> be rewarded for effort and also need to be around developers that have
>> much experience, good programming practicies, and can easily leave me in >> the dust (better than me in other words). I'm sure there are plenty
>> of
>> places like that.
>>
>
> Don't be to optimistic there are probably more managers who know
> nothing
> than there are who are real pro's. A problem can be that the real pro's
> have the same managers as you describe.
>
> Try to find the skills to avoid that.
>
> One of those I learned as one of the first in a kind of same
> environment
> as you described. Make a little error in what you make, that is easy to
> correct. However it should be seen directly. When it is seen, tell that it > is very difficult to change. Don't forget to give compliments until
> they
> are sick from it and never tell that you did make it express.

I'm not sure what you mean here. You are saying to cause a problem on
purpose but make it looks like an accident? Then let other people fix
the
error and give them compliments when they do?

>
> Although when it is to hard, than try to change and to experience yourself > what is the best environment for you. Sometimes are there advantages
> working in an environment as you describe where the managers are nulls in > your area of skills.
>
> However, when you are young, than is my advice. Try to move, you learn to > slow in such an amateur environment as you now describe.
>
> Just my thought,
>
> Cor
>

[Cor Ligthert]

Peter,

Hi I think Cor ment that your boss would see it and that you would say
it's
good he noticed it and then you pretend it's very difficult to fix but you
know it's very easy and nevertheless you get all the credit for fixing it
:-)

If that's not what Cor ment he'll correct me :-)

Not exactly, this gives you the possibility that when it is real a
difficult problem (or that you find it better not to fix it while he wants)
that you can say.

"I could fix all those problems before, which you luckily found. However
here I expect that it can give enormous problems. I don't want to be
responsible for that. However when you want me to fix that, than I will try
to find a solution of course. However I think that it can give dangerous
side effects that do not show up directly".

Mostly are the reactions the same (I mean this of course only in situations
as Brett describes with managers that makes you crazy. Not in a good
environment, there I do and never did this).

However Peter, what you told can be in my experience a good side effect.

Cor

[Brett]

What do you believe the environment is like at some intense shop like
Microsoft? I imagine they have an infinite supply of tools. No doubt they
use source control and all types of validators. They're the happiest people
when it comes to toys. That aside, how do you believe management is there?
In other words, what/how is day to day life at MS as a developer?

"Peter Proost" <pp*****@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eY*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...

Hi Brett, where I work we have got an it-team of 6:
5 programmers and 1 one network admin. One of the programmers is "head" of
IT, but it's more a title than anything else, about important things we
always consult each other. So it isn't like somebody want's to buy some
new
program and just buys it. We have the privilege that the main management
trusts us, therefor we haven't realy got a budget but we buy what need. So
they trust us and we don't abuse it. There also isn't supervising like you
describe it, ofcourse we try to set dates by what time a project needs to
be
finished, but if for example we can't get that deadline nobody gets
blaimed
unless it's realy somebody's fault. But I'm very aware that it isn't like
this in all company's, I've got the adavantage that my company isn't a
software selling company, so we write software for internal use and for
our
distributors only and therefor there isn't to much time pressure. We also
work on one or two projects at time but mostly one because they're large
projects but sometimes ofcourse we have to do smaller projects in between.
We also use our own controls/classes library so all projects use the same
controls and all projects or programmed in more or less the same way.
Ofcourse not everything is super here. We also haven't got any form of
compensation for extra efforts which is a bit a shame because some people
here do work a lot harder and programm better than others but we all get
paid the same wage and we are a bit underrespected. There are also some
other problems but I can't discust them here. But in general I feel happy
here at work and I'm sure you'll find a better working environment than
the
one where you work now. Ofcourse there will always be things that can be
better or are better at other places but you have to consider the pro's
and
con's. But I think you haven't got you're expectations up to high,
compared
to my working situation.

Greetz Peter and good luck

--
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
big
ger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.

"Brett" <[e-mail]> schreef in bericht
news:#9**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

I'd like to know what management and the work environment are like where

you

work. I need something relative to compare my current work environment.
Here's a few questions I have:

1.) Is it normal for (technical) management (actually 1 of 2 co owners)
to
constantly interrupt developers all day with with questions such as:
"can we look at this",
"I found this, can we try it now",
"Can we see what these guys are doing",
"can we change the color of this just for now"
and so on?

2.) Is it normal for developers to bounce around on little tiny projects

all

day or stick to one or two large projects and work with their team?

We use no type of source control, management won't buy new software,
there
are no standards in our development b/c management won't efforce them, we
shoot from the hip with planning, developers aren't comp'd anything for
efforts. Obviously I'm looking for another job but want to make sure my
expectations aren't to high. I believe my current work environment is a
disaster. I didn't think that when I joined but as I've improved, I feel
now this place will just degrade my skills. I want to be rewarded for
effort and also need to be around developers that have much experience,

good

programming practicies, and can easily leave me in the dust (better than

me

in other words). I'm sure there are plenty of places like that.

Comments in general are welcome.

Thanks,
Brett

[Peter Proost]

Cor,

I think I get what you mean ;-)

Greetz Peter
--
Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build
bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce
bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.

"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> schreef in bericht
news:uR**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

Peter,

Hi I think Cor ment that your boss would see it and that you would say
it's
good he noticed it and then you pretend it's very difficult to fix but you know it's very easy and nevertheless you get all the credit for fixing it :-)

If that's not what Cor ment he'll correct me :-)

Not exactly, this gives you the possibility that when it is real a
difficult problem (or that you find it better not to fix it while he

wants) that you can say.

"I could fix all those problems before, which you luckily found. However
here I expect that it can give enormous problems. I don't want to be
responsible for that. However when you want me to fix that, than I will try to find a solution of course. However I think that it can give dangerous
side effects that do not show up directly".

Mostly are the reactions the same (I mean this of course only in situations as Brett describes with managers that makes you crazy. Not in a good
environment, there I do and never did this).

However Peter, what you told can be in my experience a good side effect.

Cor

[Brett]

"Urs Eichmann" <ur***@online.nospam> wrote in message
news:O9**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

Hi Brett
Just one thing: Working without Source Control is really BAD, BAD idea!
Even if you are the only developer on a project, you should still use it.
Let alone if you are multiple developers. If money is an issue, use a free
one (such as CVS), but start using one TODAY!

Have you used this? I've installed it and WinCVS but they are extremely
difficult to get going.

[Urs Eichmann]

Brett wrote:

"Urs Eichmann" <ur***@online.nospam> wrote in message
news:O9**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

Hi Brett
Just one thing: Working without Source Control is really BAD, BAD idea!
Even if you are the only developer on a project, you should still use it.
Let alone if you are multiple developers. If money is an issue, use a free
one (such as CVS), but start using one TODAY!

Have you used this? I've installed it and WinCVS but they are extremely
difficult to get going.

not actually, my bosses always had the (few) bucks for a Source Safe
license... but I'm sure there are some tutorials around on the web. Also
I would look for Visual Studio integration, because with this you don't
have to worry about the Source Control system anymore, Visual Studio
will do all the check-in/check out and so on for you!

Urs

[Brett]

"Urs Eichmann" <ur***@online.nospam> wrote in message
news:eA****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

Brett wrote:

"Urs Eichmann" <ur***@online.nospam> wrote in message
news:O9**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...

Hi Brett
Just one thing: Working without Source Control is really BAD, BAD idea!
Even if you are the only developer on a project, you should still use it.
Let alone if you are multiple developers. If money is an issue, use a
free one (such as CVS), but start using one TODAY!

Have you used this? I've installed it and WinCVS but they are extremely
difficult to get going.

not actually, my bosses always had the (few) bucks for a Source Safe
license... but I'm sure there are some tutorials around on the web. Also I
would look for Visual Studio integration, because with this you don't have
to worry about the Source Control system anymore, Visual Studio will do
all the check-in/check out and so on for you!

Urs

Actually, I have this going now and it integrates nicely with VS.NET.
Seamless check-in/out. Very cool.

Brett