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how to "see" click event from a usercontrol

P: n/a
In it's simplest form, assume that I have created a usercontrol,
WSToolBarButton that contains a button. I would like to eventually create
copies of WSToolBarButton dynamically at run time based on some
initialization information obtained elsewhere. Basically, I'm going to
create my own dynamic toolbar where the toolbarbuttons can change. I'm not
using the VB toolbar because of limitations in changing things like
backcolor (I can't get it to change, but that's another story).

For testing purposes I simply dragged a copy of WSToolBarButton from the
usercontrol toolbox to the form. I set up a sub to handle the click event
of the WSToolBarButton. This sub displays a messagebox "usercontrol click
fired". The problem is that the click event is fired only when I click
somewhere in WSToolBarButton but NOT in the button that is part of
WSToolBarButton. If I click on the button nothing happens.

So, I went into the code for WSToolBarButton and set up a click event for
the button which display a msgbox "button click fired". Running the
program if I click the button I get "button click fired" and that's all. I
don't get "usercontrol click fired". However, if I click somewhere in
WSToolBarButton but not in the button I do get "usercontrol click fired".

My question is how exactly can I set up WSToolBarButton so that if a user
clicks anywhere within the control I will execute the click event of the
MYUSERCONTROL (the one that says "usercontrol click fired") . I guess I
somehow have to fire the WSToolBarButton click event from within the button
click event but I just don't know how to set it up. I've played with
RAISEEVENT but had no luck at all. I tried calling the
WSToolBarButton_Click sub directly from the Button click event sub, but it
doesn't bubble up to the click event on the main form.

I'm totally out of ideas here... Can anybody explain what I would need to
do to get this to work? I've attached the code snippets at the end of the
msg.

Thanks,
John
********************* this code is in my usercontrol
****************************
Public Class WSToolbarButton
Inherits System.Windows.Forms.UserControl
#Region " Windows Form Designer generated code " <snip>
#End Region
Private Sub Button1_Click(ByVal sender As System.Object, ByVal e As
System.EventArgs) Handles Button1.Click
MsgBox("button click fired")
WSToolbarButton_Click(sender, e)
End Sub

Private Sub WSToolbarButton_Click(ByVal sender As Object, ByVal e As
System.EventArgs) Handles MyBase.Click
MsgBox("wstoolbarbutton click raised")
'at this point the click event for this usercontrol on the main form
is fired ONLY IF this routine was caused
'by clicking the WSToolBarButton somewhere other than the button. If
this routine was called from the
'button1_click routine the click event for this usercontrol on the
main form WILL NOT execute.
End Sub
End Class

****************** this code is from my main form
***************************
Private Sub WsToolbarButton1_Click(ByVal sender As Object, ByVal e As
System.EventArgs) Handles WsToolbarButton1.Click
MsgBox("usercontrol click fired")
End Sub
Nov 21 '05 #1
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41 Replies


P: n/a
John,

Normally do you have too use the select case to find what button is clicked.
I use it with a tag and than like in this message.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...295fd1e1?hl=en

This is a complete different solution posted by Herfried, that I found very
nice (when the above cannot be used because this one cost of course much
more processing time).
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...3c24b4af?hl=en

I hope this helps,

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #2

P: n/a
"JohnR" <Jo******@hotmail.com> schrieb:
I'm not using the VB toolbar because of limitations in changing things
like backcolor (I can't get it to change, but that's another story).


Although this is, as you say, another story, it's very easy to change a
toolbar's background color: Set the control's 'Appearance' property to
'Flat' and change the backcolor of the container the toolbar is placed in.

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 21 '05 #3

P: n/a
Hi Herfried,

I successfully changed the background color of the toolbar, however it
still seems VERY restrictive in what you can do in terms of formatting it.
For example, could you tell me if the following is possible (and if it is,
how to do it?).

1. change the spacing between buttons for a more user pleasing appearance
2. change the background color of the actual button to have it slightly
standout against the toolbar background color
3. put a border around the button, again to give it a more pleasing
appearance
4. increase the width of a button designated as a 'separator' style (as a
way to space the real buttons a little wider).

Seems like microsoft hard coded (or hid) a lot of the properties and methods
that are needed to make the toolbar and it's buttons easy to format. This
is the main reason why I wanted to create my usercontrol (composed of a
button and label) and simulate my own toolbar. It will be much more
flexible than using the MS toolbar.

Given that, I still have my original problem... If I create my usercontrol
consisting of a button, for example, if the user clicks on the button how
can I propagate the click event so that it appears that the user clicked on
my usercontrol (see original post for code snippets).

If you or anybody else can explain this to me I would be very grateful.

Thanks,
John

"Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hi***************@gmx.at> wrote in message
news:uz*************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
"JohnR" <Jo******@hotmail.com> schrieb:
I'm not using the VB toolbar because of limitations in changing things
like backcolor (I can't get it to change, but that's another story).


Although this is, as you say, another story, it's very easy to change a
toolbar's background color: Set the control's 'Appearance' property to
'Flat' and change the backcolor of the container the toolbar is placed in.

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 21 '05 #4

P: n/a
Hi Cor,

I do plan on using some method of determining what button was clicked, but
before that I need to be able to pass the click event (when the user clicks
on the button in my usercontrol) to simulate the user clicking the actual
usercontrol (see orig post for code snippets). Surely there must be a way
to do this... If you can point me to a solution I would appreciate it very
much.

Thanks,
John

"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:Ow**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
John,

Normally do you have too use the select case to find what button is
clicked.
I use it with a tag and than like in this message.
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...295fd1e1?hl=en

This is a complete different solution posted by Herfried, that I found
very nice (when the above cannot be used because this one cost of course
much more processing time).
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...3c24b4af?hl=en

I hope this helps,

Cor

Nov 21 '05 #5

P: n/a
John,

I looked (not readed) your reply to Herfried as well.

Why don't you go to a usercontrol made from a groupbox and individual
buttons.
In my opinion gives that you much more freedom.

Just my thought,

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #6

P: n/a
Cor,

"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> schrieb:
I looked (not readed) your reply to Herfried as well.

Why don't you go to a usercontrol made from a groupbox and individual
buttons.
In my opinion gives that you much more freedom.


I don't think that creating a windowed control for each of the buttons is a
good idea because windows are costly objects:

Windows are not cheap objects
<URL:http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2005/03/15/395866.aspx>

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 21 '05 #7

P: n/a
Herfried,

Windows are not cheap objects
<URL:http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2005/03/15/395866.aspx>

--

In my opinion cheaper than painting yourself everything and create events
based on that.

When the Op needs a special button bar, what you know is a nice however very
limited control, than I think the groupbox with buttons is a way to go. I
thought even to remember me that you had written that yourself once as well.
(Not that that is my source for my answer).

When I look at the article you provide I have to think on menu items, which
in my opinon are based on the principle to add a lot of objects to another
object. Those menu items have AFAIK not much less functionality in them than
a button that I suggest to add to a groupbox.

However when you have a really better alternative, than I am as well very
curious to see that.

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #8

P: n/a
Cor,

Have you ever considered taking a course in the English language in your
spare time? Please don't be offended but your sentences are so mixed up
sometimes that they are hard to understand.

Hope this helps!

Debbie


Nov 21 '05 #9

P: n/a
Cor,

"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> schrieb:
Windows are not cheap objects
<URL:http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2005/03/15/395866.aspx>
In my opinion cheaper than painting yourself everything and create events
based on that.


The implementation might be cheaper in terms of implementation effort, but
the toolbar will require much more memory if every button is a separate
instance of a Win32 window class. Instances of window classes are costly in
memory. Raymond Chen, who wrote the article I referenced above, IIRC
mentioned the sample of a listbox control: If every item would be a
separate control (= window), the whole listbox control would occupy a huge
amount of resources, which is not desirable. Menus, for example, toolbars
and many other controls in Windows are not implemented as composite controls
for that reason, even if that would be "easier".
When the Op needs a special button bar, what you know is a nice however
very limited control, than I think the groupbox with buttons is a way to
go. I thought even to remember me that you had written that yourself once
as well. (Not that that is my source for my answer).
I don't remember that I have written that in the past.
When I look at the article you provide I have to think on menu items,
which in my opinon are based on the principle to add a lot of objects to
another object. Those menu items have AFAIK not much less functionality in
them than a button that I suggest to add to a groupbox.


The menu items actually don't have less functionality, but they require less
resources because they are not implemented as a set of separate windows (a
single window for each item). My comment only applies if the toolbar
contains more than n buttons -- if your toolbar only consists of three
buttons, implementing the toolbar the way I suggest is not worth the effort.

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 21 '05 #10

P: n/a

Debbie,
Have you ever considered taking a course in the English language in
your
spare time? Please don't be offended but your sentences are so mixed up
sometimes that they are hard to understand.


Please tell me what is wrong in this message. I myself see beside some
commas and the wrong spelled word "opinion" not many errors.

Therefore, I will be pleased when you show it me.

I have not made this as something to describe, however too Herfried, who
knows all the used keywords and classes.

Now your message is only offending for me and does not give any help.

Have you thought about the fact, that it is maybe something, what I do as
well in Dutch, when I write quickly a message and than try to correct the
errors and do it than wrong?

I have seen often writing errors in my message. However for me is it a
newsgroup message, not a document.

Cor


Nov 21 '05 #11

P: n/a
Herfried,

First of all, good nicely done answer, there is in my opinion not much to
bring up against it and gives me a good idea what you was meaning.

However, what is the difference when we use three separated buttons instead
of a groupbox with three included buttons.

I will remember this. (I was myself not aware of that). This means for me
that using a toolbar has an extra's advantages above that as I saw it, what
was uniformity.

Cor

Nov 21 '05 #12

P: n/a
Cor,
I did not say anything about spelling mistakes or commas as we all get
in a hurry and make them while writing on the computer. I was talking about
missing words and the sentences not making sense. I read your messages
everyday and they are very helpful when I can understand them. Sometimes I
have to read them 3 or 4 times to know what you are talking about. I just
thought I would help you like you help everyone else. Please read the
corrections below.
Please tell me what is wrong in this message.
Please tell me what is wrong with my message.
I myself see beside some commas and the wrong spelled word "opinion" not many errors.

I can only see some missing commas and the word "opinion" spelled wrong.
Therefore, I will be pleased when you show it me.
Therefore I would be pleased if you showed me.
I have not made this as something to describe, however too Herfried, who knows all the used keywords and classes.

Sorry...can not figure this one out. I think I know what it is saying but
not sure.
Now your message is only offending for me and does not give any help.
Your message offends me and does not provide any help.
Have you thought about the fact, that it is maybe something, what I do as well in Dutch, when I write quickly a message and than try to correct the
errors and do it than wrong?

Not sure what this sentence is saying...I think you are telling me you are
Dutch?
I have seen often writing errors in my message. However for me is it a

newsgroup message, not a document.

I make wrtiting errors often but since this is a newsgroup and not a
document I don't really care.

Hope this helps,
Debbie

Nov 21 '05 #13

P: n/a
Debbie,

I agree however as well disagree with you, but your message is helpful. My
English is based on how I have learned English not American.

To check that, I took just one message from Terry Burns. He is from Thames
Valley, not far away from Oxford where for us Dutch the best English is
spoken.
Ctrl Alt J will open up the object browser, and you can find all the
classes
in your assembly
When I understand your message well, than you would have written something
as.
Ctrl Alt J opens the object browser and you find than all the classes in
your assembly

I have learned to do it in the way as Terry writes. While by instance, the
way you write, looks very much on grammatical Dutch. Maybe you think that it
is therefore easier for me. No when I write English, I am thinking in
English. It can be that I overdo it now and therefore I will keep an eye on
it in future and am thankful for your message.

The sentence about Dutch was that I skip in Dutch as well many words when I
quickly write a message. I am busy with the next sentence when the first is
not even ready. Than I correct it, however set than the words in the wrong
sequence. A message like yours is than good to point me again on that.

However, I wrote first "...that I am skipping in Dutch as well many words
when I am writing quickly". Now I changed it, so maybe your message has
success and let me write in a more popular way in this newsgroup.

The message concerning Herfried was that I was using more for us both known
keywords than language. Because Herfried understands those keywords, has it
less sense to write it in a way that everybody understands it. Maybe I
unconscious think too much, that because Herfried understands as much
languages as I, that the correct grammatical use is less important. You are
right when you now want to tell that more people read those messages, but
sometimes it gives than in my opinion a too long messages to explain
everything and is than for Herfried without any sense.

The "when/if" error is something somebody else showed me as well. That is an
error hard to overcome. While grammatical in Dutch, it is as well not
correct, are we using that often and therefore I probably make that error in
English as well quiet easy, even if I keep an eye on it (I wrote first
"when"). :-)
I make wrtiting errors often but since this is a newsgroup and not a
document I don't really care.


I do not understand what you want to tell me with this last sentence from
you. However, the last part is not true. I don't care about it in the same
way as if it was a document.

:-)

Thank you

Cor

Nov 21 '05 #14

P: n/a
Hello Cor,
Since this is a programming newsgroup I will drop the subject but
thank you for explaining. I was unaware the English language had different
versions. Keep up the good work!
Debbie

"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:OX****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Debbie,

I agree however as well disagree with you, but your message is helpful. My
English is based on how I have learned English not American.

To check that, I took just one message from Terry Burns. He is from Thames
Valley, not far away from Oxford where for us Dutch the best English is
spoken.
Ctrl Alt J will open up the object browser, and you can find all the
classes
in your assembly
When I understand your message well, than you would have written something
as.
Ctrl Alt J opens the object browser and you find than all the classes in
your assembly

I have learned to do it in the way as Terry writes. While by instance, the
way you write, looks very much on grammatical Dutch. Maybe you think that

it is therefore easier for me. No when I write English, I am thinking in
English. It can be that I overdo it now and therefore I will keep an eye on it in future and am thankful for your message.

The sentence about Dutch was that I skip in Dutch as well many words when I quickly write a message. I am busy with the next sentence when the first is not even ready. Than I correct it, however set than the words in the wrong
sequence. A message like yours is than good to point me again on that.

However, I wrote first "...that I am skipping in Dutch as well many words
when I am writing quickly". Now I changed it, so maybe your message has
success and let me write in a more popular way in this newsgroup.

The message concerning Herfried was that I was using more for us both known keywords than language. Because Herfried understands those keywords, has it less sense to write it in a way that everybody understands it. Maybe I
unconscious think too much, that because Herfried understands as much
languages as I, that the correct grammatical use is less important. You are right when you now want to tell that more people read those messages, but
sometimes it gives than in my opinion a too long messages to explain
everything and is than for Herfried without any sense.

The "when/if" error is something somebody else showed me as well. That is an error hard to overcome. While grammatical in Dutch, it is as well not
correct, are we using that often and therefore I probably make that error in English as well quiet easy, even if I keep an eye on it (I wrote first
"when"). :-)
I make wrtiting errors often but since this is a newsgroup and not a
document I don't really care.


I do not understand what you want to tell me with this last sentence from
you. However, the last part is not true. I don't care about it in the same
way as if it was a document.

:-)

Thank you

Cor

Nov 21 '05 #15

P: n/a
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:37:58 GMT, "Debbie Carter"
<dc*********@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Hello Cor,
Since this is a programming newsgroup I will drop the subject but
thank you for explaining. I was unaware the English language had different
versions. Keep up the good work!
Debbie Are trying to start a flame war :-) Even English as spoken in England
has many dialects, some almost impossible to understand to non native
speakers, such as Gorbals Glaswegian English. I have worked with many
people from the Netherlands and they in general speak and write
excellent English.

Doug Taylor
"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:OX****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Debbie,

I agree however as well disagree with you, but your message is helpful. My
English is based on how I have learned English not American.

To check that, I took just one message from Terry Burns. He is from Thames
Valley, not far away from Oxford where for us Dutch the best English is
spoken.
>Ctrl Alt J will open up the object browser, and you can find all the
>classes
>in your assembly


When I understand your message well, than you would have written something
as.
Ctrl Alt J opens the object browser and you find than all the classes in
your assembly

I have learned to do it in the way as Terry writes. While by instance, the
way you write, looks very much on grammatical Dutch. Maybe you think that

it
is therefore easier for me. No when I write English, I am thinking in
English. It can be that I overdo it now and therefore I will keep an eye

on
it in future and am thankful for your message.

The sentence about Dutch was that I skip in Dutch as well many words when

I
quickly write a message. I am busy with the next sentence when the first

is
not even ready. Than I correct it, however set than the words in the wrong
sequence. A message like yours is than good to point me again on that.

However, I wrote first "...that I am skipping in Dutch as well many words
when I am writing quickly". Now I changed it, so maybe your message has
success and let me write in a more popular way in this newsgroup.

The message concerning Herfried was that I was using more for us both

known
keywords than language. Because Herfried understands those keywords, has

it
less sense to write it in a way that everybody understands it. Maybe I
unconscious think too much, that because Herfried understands as much
languages as I, that the correct grammatical use is less important. You

are
right when you now want to tell that more people read those messages, but
sometimes it gives than in my opinion a too long messages to explain
everything and is than for Herfried without any sense.

The "when/if" error is something somebody else showed me as well. That is

an
error hard to overcome. While grammatical in Dutch, it is as well not
correct, are we using that often and therefore I probably make that error

in
English as well quiet easy, even if I keep an eye on it (I wrote first
"when"). :-)
>I make wrtiting errors often but since this is a newsgroup and not a
>document I don't really care.


I do not understand what you want to tell me with this last sentence from
you. However, the last part is not true. I don't care about it in the same
way as if it was a document.

:-)

Thank you

Cor


Nov 21 '05 #16

P: n/a
Doug,

Flame war? Heck no! Just trying to kill some time between projects. :-)

Debbie
"Doug Taylor" <Do************@tayNOSPAMmade.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:i5********************************@4ax.com...
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:37:58 GMT, "Debbie Carter"
<dc*********@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Hello Cor,
Since this is a programming newsgroup I will drop the subject but
thank you for explaining. I was unaware the English language had differentversions. Keep up the good work!
Debbie

Are trying to start a flame war :-) Even English as spoken in England
has many dialects, some almost impossible to understand to non native
speakers, such as Gorbals Glaswegian English. I have worked with many
people from the Netherlands and they in general speak and write
excellent English.

Doug Taylor

"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:OX****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Debbie,

I agree however as well disagree with you, but your message is helpful. My English is based on how I have learned English not American.

To check that, I took just one message from Terry Burns. He is from Thames Valley, not far away from Oxford where for us Dutch the best English is
spoken.

>Ctrl Alt J will open up the object browser, and you can find all the
>classes
>in your assembly

When I understand your message well, than you would have written something as.
Ctrl Alt J opens the object browser and you find than all the classes in your assembly

I have learned to do it in the way as Terry writes. While by instance, the way you write, looks very much on grammatical Dutch. Maybe you think that
it
is therefore easier for me. No when I write English, I am thinking in
English. It can be that I overdo it now and therefore I will keep an
eyeon
it in future and am thankful for your message.

The sentence about Dutch was that I skip in Dutch as well many words
whenI
quickly write a message. I am busy with the next sentence when the
firstis
not even ready. Than I correct it, however set than the words in the
wrong sequence. A message like yours is than good to point me again on that.

However, I wrote first "...that I am skipping in Dutch as well many words when I am writing quickly". Now I changed it, so maybe your message has
success and let me write in a more popular way in this newsgroup.

The message concerning Herfried was that I was using more for us both

known
keywords than language. Because Herfried understands those keywords, hasit
less sense to write it in a way that everybody understands it. Maybe I
unconscious think too much, that because Herfried understands as much
languages as I, that the correct grammatical use is less important. You

are
right when you now want to tell that more people read those messages,
but sometimes it gives than in my opinion a too long messages to explain
everything and is than for Herfried without any sense.

The "when/if" error is something somebody else showed me as well. That isan
error hard to overcome. While grammatical in Dutch, it is as well not
correct, are we using that often and therefore I probably make that
errorin
English as well quiet easy, even if I keep an eye on it (I wrote first
"when"). :-)

>I make wrtiting errors often but since this is a newsgroup and not a
>document I don't really care.

I do not understand what you want to tell me with this last sentence

from you. However, the last part is not true. I don't care about it in the same way as if it was a document.

:-)

Thank you

Cor

Nov 21 '05 #17

P: n/a
Hey Cor,

My Father was born in Rotterdam just before the war. He came over to the
USA in his late 20's. Unfortunately my Mother was not Dutch and so no Dutch
was spoken in my home, so I can't speak a word of it.

Funny thing, though. I can recognize a Dutch accent a mile away. I was
in a train in New York during the marathon and over heard some people
talking in the next row. I asked them if they were speaking Dutch and they
were amazed that I recognized it. It's such a relatively small country that
not many people would know what it was.

Even funnier was during a convention I attended. I was introduced to an
oriental person, and to my surprise when he spoke english I immediately
recognized that he had a heavy Dutch accent. Now, let me tell you, I don't
meet very many oriental people who speak english with a Dutch accent, so I
was completely blown away.... He explained that his Father was transfered
to Holland from China and he was born in Holland, and Dutch was actually his
native language!!! Now go figure that one out...

John
"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:OX****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Debbie,

I agree however as well disagree with you, but your message is helpful. My
English is based on how I have learned English not American.

To check that, I took just one message from Terry Burns. He is from Thames
Valley, not far away from Oxford where for us Dutch the best English is
spoken.
Ctrl Alt J will open up the object browser, and you can find all the
classes
in your assembly


When I understand your message well, than you would have written something
as.
Ctrl Alt J opens the object browser and you find than all the classes in
your assembly

I have learned to do it in the way as Terry writes. While by instance, the
way you write, looks very much on grammatical Dutch. Maybe you think that
it is therefore easier for me. No when I write English, I am thinking in
English. It can be that I overdo it now and therefore I will keep an eye
on it in future and am thankful for your message.

The sentence about Dutch was that I skip in Dutch as well many words when
I quickly write a message. I am busy with the next sentence when the first
is not even ready. Than I correct it, however set than the words in the
wrong sequence. A message like yours is than good to point me again on
that.

However, I wrote first "...that I am skipping in Dutch as well many words
when I am writing quickly". Now I changed it, so maybe your message has
success and let me write in a more popular way in this newsgroup.

The message concerning Herfried was that I was using more for us both
known keywords than language. Because Herfried understands those keywords,
has it less sense to write it in a way that everybody understands it.
Maybe I unconscious think too much, that because Herfried understands as
much languages as I, that the correct grammatical use is less important.
You are right when you now want to tell that more people read those
messages, but sometimes it gives than in my opinion a too long messages to
explain everything and is than for Herfried without any sense.

The "when/if" error is something somebody else showed me as well. That is
an error hard to overcome. While grammatical in Dutch, it is as well not
correct, are we using that often and therefore I probably make that error
in English as well quiet easy, even if I keep an eye on it (I wrote first
"when"). :-)
I make wrtiting errors often but since this is a newsgroup and not a
document I don't really care.


I do not understand what you want to tell me with this last sentence from
you. However, the last part is not true. I don't care about it in the same
way as if it was a document.

:-)

Thank you

Cor

Nov 21 '05 #18

P: n/a
JohnR wrote:
Hey Cor,
I asked them if they were speaking Dutch and they were amazed that I recognized it. It's such a relatively small country that
not many people would know what it was.


We Dutch are the chinese of the west :) Find any remote location where
there's only a handfull of foreigners and I'll bet you 10:1 that one of
them is Dutch :P

I've been around the world and when I finally thought I was away from my
countrymen.. there would be one there..haha

--
Rinze van Huizen
C-Services Holland b.v.
Nov 21 '05 #19

P: n/a
I think that everyone is missing the point here.

Regardless of what language you are writing in - if the reader doesn't
understand the message then you have wasted your time.
"Doug Taylor" <Do************@tayNOSPAMmade.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:i5********************************@4ax.com...
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:37:58 GMT, "Debbie Carter"
<dc*********@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Hello Cor,
Since this is a programming newsgroup I will drop the subject but
thank you for explaining. I was unaware the English language had different
versions. Keep up the good work!
Debbie

Are trying to start a flame war :-) Even English as spoken in England
has many dialects, some almost impossible to understand to non native
speakers, such as Gorbals Glaswegian English. I have worked with many
people from the Netherlands and they in general speak and write
excellent English.

Doug Taylor

"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:OX****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl.. .
Debbie,

I agree however as well disagree with you, but your message is helpful.
My
English is based on how I have learned English not American.

To check that, I took just one message from Terry Burns. He is from
Thames
Valley, not far away from Oxford where for us Dutch the best English is
spoken.

>Ctrl Alt J will open up the object browser, and you can find all the
>classes
>in your assembly

When I understand your message well, than you would have written
something
as.
Ctrl Alt J opens the object browser and you find than all the classes in
your assembly

I have learned to do it in the way as Terry writes. While by instance,
the
way you write, looks very much on grammatical Dutch. Maybe you think
that

it
is therefore easier for me. No when I write English, I am thinking in
English. It can be that I overdo it now and therefore I will keep an eye

on
it in future and am thankful for your message.

The sentence about Dutch was that I skip in Dutch as well many words
when

I
quickly write a message. I am busy with the next sentence when the first

is
not even ready. Than I correct it, however set than the words in the
wrong
sequence. A message like yours is than good to point me again on that.

However, I wrote first "...that I am skipping in Dutch as well many
words
when I am writing quickly". Now I changed it, so maybe your message has
success and let me write in a more popular way in this newsgroup.

The message concerning Herfried was that I was using more for us both

known
keywords than language. Because Herfried understands those keywords, has

it
less sense to write it in a way that everybody understands it. Maybe I
unconscious think too much, that because Herfried understands as much
languages as I, that the correct grammatical use is less important. You

are
right when you now want to tell that more people read those messages,
but
sometimes it gives than in my opinion a too long messages to explain
everything and is than for Herfried without any sense.

The "when/if" error is something somebody else showed me as well. That
is

an
error hard to overcome. While grammatical in Dutch, it is as well not
correct, are we using that often and therefore I probably make that
error

in
English as well quiet easy, even if I keep an eye on it (I wrote first
"when"). :-)

>I make wrtiting errors often but since this is a newsgroup and not a
>document I don't really care.

I do not understand what you want to tell me with this last sentence
from
you. However, the last part is not true. I don't care about it in the
same
way as if it was a document.

:-)

Thank you

Cor

Nov 21 '05 #20

P: n/a
JohnR,

Some Dutchman expressly from Amsterdam, don't hear the difference between
the character z and s and are mostly using the s. I don't know however, I
assume that we do the same (and more things like that) in English. When we
speak English, we think in English, it is not a kind of translation. It is
changing your language completely, and than pronounce that. It is of course
the situation where we try to do it in the Oxford way or do it in the Dutch
way.

Nice story from you, however not good of course for this newsgroup,
therefore I don't make it to long although that it has my interest. However
in my opinion needed your message an answer

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #21

P: n/a
Stephany,
Bingo! You understood my point. If I were a software company and you
were looking for a programming job...you would be the first one I would
hire.
Debbie
"Stephany Young" <noone@localhost> wrote in message
news:es**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
I think that everyone is missing the point here.

Regardless of what language you are writing in - if the reader doesn't
understand the message then you have wasted your time.
"Doug Taylor" <Do************@tayNOSPAMmade.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:i5********************************@4ax.com...
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:37:58 GMT, "Debbie Carter"
<dc*********@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Hello Cor,
Since this is a programming newsgroup I will drop the subject but
thank you for explaining. I was unaware the English language had differentversions. Keep up the good work!
Debbie

Are trying to start a flame war :-) Even English as spoken in England
has many dialects, some almost impossible to understand to non native
speakers, such as Gorbals Glaswegian English. I have worked with many
people from the Netherlands and they in general speak and write
excellent English.

Doug Taylor

"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:OX****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl.. .
Debbie,

I agree however as well disagree with you, but your message is helpful. My
English is based on how I have learned English not American.

To check that, I took just one message from Terry Burns. He is from
Thames
Valley, not far away from Oxford where for us Dutch the best English is spoken.

>Ctrl Alt J will open up the object browser, and you can find all the
>classes
>in your assembly

When I understand your message well, than you would have written
something
as.
Ctrl Alt J opens the object browser and you find than all the classes in your assembly

I have learned to do it in the way as Terry writes. While by instance,
the
way you write, looks very much on grammatical Dutch. Maybe you think
that
it
is therefore easier for me. No when I write English, I am thinking in
English. It can be that I overdo it now and therefore I will keep an eyeon
it in future and am thankful for your message.

The sentence about Dutch was that I skip in Dutch as well many words
when
I
quickly write a message. I am busy with the next sentence when the firstis
not even ready. Than I correct it, however set than the words in the
wrong
sequence. A message like yours is than good to point me again on that.

However, I wrote first "...that I am skipping in Dutch as well many
words
when I am writing quickly". Now I changed it, so maybe your message has success and let me write in a more popular way in this newsgroup.

The message concerning Herfried was that I was using more for us both
known
keywords than language. Because Herfried understands those keywords, hasit
less sense to write it in a way that everybody understands it. Maybe I
unconscious think too much, that because Herfried understands as much
languages as I, that the correct grammatical use is less important. Youare
right when you now want to tell that more people read those messages,
but
sometimes it gives than in my opinion a too long messages to explain
everything and is than for Herfried without any sense.

The "when/if" error is something somebody else showed me as well. That
is
an
error hard to overcome. While grammatical in Dutch, it is as well not
correct, are we using that often and therefore I probably make that
error
in
English as well quiet easy, even if I keep an eye on it (I wrote first
"when"). :-)

>I make wrtiting errors often but since this is a newsgroup and not a
>document I don't really care.

I do not understand what you want to tell me with this last sentence
from
you. However, the last part is not true. I don't care about it in the
same
way as if it was a document.

:-)

Thank you

Cor


Nov 21 '05 #22

P: n/a
We have a Dutch mayor in our little home town. When you walk into his office
he has a sign that hangs behind his desk that says, "If you ain't
Dutch...you ain't much".
"C-Services Holland b.v." <cs*@REMOVEcsh4u.nl> wrote in message
news:4b********************@zeelandnet.nl...
JohnR wrote:
Hey Cor,

I asked them if they were speaking Dutch and they
were amazed that I recognized it. It's such a relatively small country that not many people would know what it was.


We Dutch are the chinese of the west :) Find any remote location where
there's only a handfull of foreigners and I'll bet you 10:1 that one of
them is Dutch :P

I've been around the world and when I finally thought I was away from my
countrymen.. there would be one there..haha

--
Rinze van Huizen
C-Services Holland b.v.

Nov 21 '05 #23

P: n/a
Actually I respect anyone that can speak or write in more than one language.

Debbie
"Doug Taylor" <Do************@tayNOSPAMmade.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:j2********************************@4ax.com...
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:16:12 +1200, "Stephany Young" <noone@localhost>
wrote:
I think that everyone is missing the point here.

Regardless of what language you are writing in - if the reader doesn't
understand the message then you have wasted your time.

I also think that native 'English' speakers should cut non native
'English' speakers a huge amount of slack. I often have to work in
French and I know how hard it is to be even reasonably comprehended in
a language that is not your own.

I do take your point, though, I feel we have a responsibilty to try
and understand non native English speakers

Doug Taylor

"Doug Taylor" <Do************@tayNOSPAMmade.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:i5********************************@4ax.com.. .
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:37:58 GMT, "Debbie Carter"
<dc*********@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Hello Cor,
Since this is a programming newsgroup I will drop the subject but
thank you for explaining. I was unaware the English language had differentversions. Keep up the good work!
Debbie
Are trying to start a flame war :-) Even English as spoken in England
has many dialects, some almost impossible to understand to non native
speakers, such as Gorbals Glaswegian English. I have worked with many
people from the Netherlands and they in general speak and write
excellent English.

Doug Taylor

"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:OX****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl. ..
> Debbie,
>
> I agree however as well disagree with you, but your message is helpful.> My
> English is based on how I have learned English not American.
>
> To check that, I took just one message from Terry Burns. He is from
> Thames
> Valley, not far away from Oxford where for us Dutch the best English is> spoken.
>
> >Ctrl Alt J will open up the object browser, and you can find all the
> >classes
> >in your assembly
>
> When I understand your message well, than you would have written
> something
> as.
> Ctrl Alt J opens the object browser and you find than all the classes in> your assembly
>
> I have learned to do it in the way as Terry writes. While by instance,> the
> way you write, looks very much on grammatical Dutch. Maybe you think
> that
it
> is therefore easier for me. No when I write English, I am thinking in
> English. It can be that I overdo it now and therefore I will keep an eyeon
> it in future and am thankful for your message.
>
> The sentence about Dutch was that I skip in Dutch as well many words
> when
I
> quickly write a message. I am busy with the next sentence when the firstis
> not even ready. Than I correct it, however set than the words in the
> wrong
> sequence. A message like yours is than good to point me again on that.>
> However, I wrote first "...that I am skipping in Dutch as well many
> words
> when I am writing quickly". Now I changed it, so maybe your message has> success and let me write in a more popular way in this newsgroup.
>
> The message concerning Herfried was that I was using more for us both
known
> keywords than language. Because Herfried understands those keywords, hasit
> less sense to write it in a way that everybody understands it. Maybe I> unconscious think too much, that because Herfried understands as much
> languages as I, that the correct grammatical use is less important. Youare
> right when you now want to tell that more people read those messages,
> but
> sometimes it gives than in my opinion a too long messages to explain
> everything and is than for Herfried without any sense.
>
> The "when/if" error is something somebody else showed me as well. That> is
an
> error hard to overcome. While grammatical in Dutch, it is as well not
> correct, are we using that often and therefore I probably make that
> error
in
> English as well quiet easy, even if I keep an eye on it (I wrote first> "when"). :-)
>
> >I make wrtiting errors often but since this is a newsgroup and not a
> >document I don't really care.
>
> I do not understand what you want to tell me with this last sentence
> from
> you. However, the last part is not true. I don't care about it in the
> same
> way as if it was a document.
>
> :-)
>
> Thank you
>
> Cor
>
>
>

Nov 21 '05 #24

P: n/a
I'm afraid I have to disagree Doug.

If I was having a verbal conversation with someone for whom English was not
their first language, then I might be prepared to give some leeway,
depending on the effort they were putting in to making themselves
understood. In a verbal conversation one has other cues to help the
situation - facial expression, body language, gesticulation etc.

If, for example, I was going to be visiting France and I wanted to be
understood by the locals then it is my responsibility to learn French to the
standard where I can make myself understood. I do not expect the locals to
give me anyway leeway at all.

In the written medium, we do not have the luxury of visual cues, and
therefore it is even more important that what is written is as correct as it
possibly can be including grammar and punctuation. I'm sure that you are
well aware that a misplaced comma can completely change the meaning of a
sentence.

I will make the point that some of our friends in here for whom English is
not their first language actually have far better written English skills
than some of those for whom English is their first langauage.

I believe it is the responsibility of the write to make themselves
understood.
"Doug Taylor" <Do************@tayNOSPAMmade.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:j2********************************@4ax.com...
On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:16:12 +1200, "Stephany Young" <noone@localhost>
wrote:
I think that everyone is missing the point here.

Regardless of what language you are writing in - if the reader doesn't
understand the message then you have wasted your time.

I also think that native 'English' speakers should cut non native
'English' speakers a huge amount of slack. I often have to work in
French and I know how hard it is to be even reasonably comprehended in
a language that is not your own.

I do take your point, though, I feel we have a responsibilty to try
and understand non native English speakers

Doug Taylor

"Doug Taylor" <Do************@tayNOSPAMmade.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:i5********************************@4ax.com. ..
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:37:58 GMT, "Debbie Carter"
<dc*********@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Hello Cor,
Since this is a programming newsgroup I will drop the subject but
thank you for explaining. I was unaware the English language had
different
versions. Keep up the good work!
Debbie
Are trying to start a flame war :-) Even English as spoken in England
has many dialects, some almost impossible to understand to non native
speakers, such as Gorbals Glaswegian English. I have worked with many
people from the Netherlands and they in general speak and write
excellent English.

Doug Taylor

"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:OX****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl.. .
> Debbie,
>
> I agree however as well disagree with you, but your message is
> helpful.
> My
> English is based on how I have learned English not American.
>
> To check that, I took just one message from Terry Burns. He is from
> Thames
> Valley, not far away from Oxford where for us Dutch the best English
> is
> spoken.
>
> >Ctrl Alt J will open up the object browser, and you can find all the
> >classes
> >in your assembly
>
> When I understand your message well, than you would have written
> something
> as.
> Ctrl Alt J opens the object browser and you find than all the classes
> in
> your assembly
>
> I have learned to do it in the way as Terry writes. While by instance,
> the
> way you write, looks very much on grammatical Dutch. Maybe you think
> that
it
> is therefore easier for me. No when I write English, I am thinking in
> English. It can be that I overdo it now and therefore I will keep an
> eye
on
> it in future and am thankful for your message.
>
> The sentence about Dutch was that I skip in Dutch as well many words
> when
I
> quickly write a message. I am busy with the next sentence when the
> first
is
> not even ready. Than I correct it, however set than the words in the
> wrong
> sequence. A message like yours is than good to point me again on that.
>
> However, I wrote first "...that I am skipping in Dutch as well many
> words
> when I am writing quickly". Now I changed it, so maybe your message
> has
> success and let me write in a more popular way in this newsgroup.
>
> The message concerning Herfried was that I was using more for us both
known
> keywords than language. Because Herfried understands those keywords,
> has
it
> less sense to write it in a way that everybody understands it. Maybe I
> unconscious think too much, that because Herfried understands as much
> languages as I, that the correct grammatical use is less important.
> You
are
> right when you now want to tell that more people read those messages,
> but
> sometimes it gives than in my opinion a too long messages to explain
> everything and is than for Herfried without any sense.
>
> The "when/if" error is something somebody else showed me as well. That
> is
an
> error hard to overcome. While grammatical in Dutch, it is as well not
> correct, are we using that often and therefore I probably make that
> error
in
> English as well quiet easy, even if I keep an eye on it (I wrote first
> "when"). :-)
>
> >I make wrtiting errors often but since this is a newsgroup and not a
> >document I don't really care.
>
> I do not understand what you want to tell me with this last sentence
> from
> you. However, the last part is not true. I don't care about it in the
> same
> way as if it was a document.
>
> :-)
>
> Thank you
>
> Cor
>
>
>

Nov 21 '05 #25

P: n/a
Stephany,

I hope I don't offend you; however communicating is not using many words,
your message proofs for me that you don't know about what you're talking.

When I go to England, I speak English with the locals. When I go to Germany,
I speak German with the locals. However when I have really a conversation
with someone from Austria, we probably will use English. When I go to Italy,
I start mostly in French and after a while more and more Italian. When I go
to Spain (and that was the last times always the Catalonian coast) than it
is German. When I go to Poland, I try it in Polish. When I go to French, it
is French. When I go to the French speaking part of Belgium, I start in
French and after a while, we probably go over to Dutch. When a foreigner is
in the Netherlands, he/she can only communicate in English, German, or
French. In another language, including Dutch a Dutchman does normally not
communicate with what is obvious a foreigner.

You want to know why, that is because the language is only the layer we use
to communicate and we take the one, which is for the weakest one the most
easily to communicate.

The weakest one can be because of the ability of the other one to speak a
language or because of the cognisance performance of the other one.

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #26

P: n/a
I'm sorry Cor but I have no idea what point you are attempting to make.
"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
Stephany,

I hope I don't offend you; however communicating is not using many words,
your message proofs for me that you don't know about what you're talking.

When I go to England, I speak English with the locals. When I go to
Germany, I speak German with the locals. However when I have really a
conversation with someone from Austria, we probably will use English. When
I go to Italy, I start mostly in French and after a while more and more
Italian. When I go to Spain (and that was the last times always the
Catalonian coast) than it is German. When I go to Poland, I try it in
Polish. When I go to French, it is French. When I go to the French
speaking part of Belgium, I start in French and after a while, we probably
go over to Dutch. When a foreigner is in the Netherlands, he/she can only
communicate in English, German, or French. In another language, including
Dutch a Dutchman does normally not communicate with what is obvious a
foreigner.

You want to know why, that is because the language is only the layer we
use to communicate and we take the one, which is for the weakest one the
most easily to communicate.

The weakest one can be because of the ability of the other one to speak a
language or because of the cognisance performance of the other one.

Cor

Nov 21 '05 #27

P: n/a
> I'm sorry Cor but I have no idea what point you are attempting to make.

Yes that is the problem that I try to describe.

However there is more needed than words alone to communicate.

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #28

P: n/a
>
I believe it is the responsibility of the write to make themselves
understood.

By the way, what do you mean with the message above. I think that I am able
to understand what you mean. However, it is in my opinion real bs in the
context as you try to give lessons here.

Or has it to do in which way that in NZ is written about the bible?

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #29

P: n/a
I can make spelling mistakes just a easily as anyone else.

It should have been:

I believe it is the responsibility of the writers to make themselves
understood.

See how easy it is to misunderstand if something is not written correctly.

Could you please explain what you mean by you last comment?
"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:uc**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...

I believe it is the responsibility of the write to make themselves
understood.

By the way, what do you mean with the message above. I think that I am
able to understand what you mean. However, it is in my opinion real bs in
the context as you try to give lessons here.

Or has it to do in which way that in NZ is written about the bible?

Cor

Nov 21 '05 #30

P: n/a
Stephany Young wrote:
I'm afraid I have to disagree Doug.

If I was having a verbal conversation with someone for whom English was not
their first language, then I might be prepared to give some leeway,
depending on the effort they were putting in to making themselves
understood. In a verbal conversation one has other cues to help the
situation - facial expression, body language, gesticulation etc.

If, for example, I was going to be visiting France and I wanted to be
understood by the locals then it is my responsibility to learn French to the
standard where I can make myself understood. I do not expect the locals to
give me anyway leeway at all.

In the written medium, we do not have the luxury of visual cues, and
therefore it is even more important that what is written is as correct as it
possibly can be including grammar and punctuation. I'm sure that you are
well aware that a misplaced comma can completely change the meaning of a
sentence.

I will make the point that some of our friends in here for whom English is
not their first language actually have far better written English skills
than some of those for whom English is their first langauage.

I believe it is the responsibility of the write to make themselves
understood.


Even been to the Netherlands? If so, did you learn Dutch? Didn't think
so. Your primary language is English so you have the luck that your
native language is one of the top languages in the world. I'm Dutch, I
don't have that luxery.

When tourists come to my country they expect us to speak their language,
or at least English. The region I'm in is popular with tourists and I
have yet to meet one that speaks Dutch or even attempts it. They all
think we're fluent in German, English, French or whatever. If I were to
try the same thing abroad (i.e. order some food in Dutch in England)
they would insist I speak English. I've travelled to alot of countries
and if you expect me to have learned all those languages you're out of
your mind. I'd be speaking at least 15 languages by now. I think 3 is
enough for me and by reading I can usually make out what it says in 2 or
3 additional languages. That's enough for me.

Point is, this is an international newsgroup. People from around the
world come here who's native language isn't English. You can't expect
them all to be fluent in English, either speaking or writing. You say it
needs to be grammatically correct. This is hard because alot of
languages differ greatly grammar wise. Not everyone has a knack for
speaking, let alone writing, another language. Just be glad we're not
all coming here writing our questions/answers in our native language and
expecting you to fully understand what has been written.

--
Rinze van Huizen
C-Services Holland b.v.
Nov 21 '05 #31

P: n/a
That is my whole point. If I had ever been to the Netherlands than I would
have made the effort to learn Dutch to the
extent that I was able to make myself understood.

If the tourists to the Netherlands behave as you describe then that shows
that they are both arrogant and ignorant.

You are absolutely right, this newsgroup has an international
participantship. However, the language of this newsgroup is English. Seeing
as how the medium of this newsgroup is written, I don't really care how
fluent someone is or isn't, as the case may be, in spoken English. What I am
emphasising is that if one wants to make oneself understood in this medium
it is important that what one writes is phrased in a manner that others can
understand.
"C-Services Holland b.v." <cs*@REMOVEcsh4u.nl> wrote in message
news:x_********************@zeelandnet.nl...
Stephany Young wrote:
I'm afraid I have to disagree Doug.

If I was having a verbal conversation with someone for whom English was
not their first language, then I might be prepared to give some leeway,
depending on the effort they were putting in to making themselves
understood. In a verbal conversation one has other cues to help the
situation - facial expression, body language, gesticulation etc.

If, for example, I was going to be visiting France and I wanted to be
understood by the locals then it is my responsibility to learn French to
the standard where I can make myself understood. I do not expect the
locals to give me anyway leeway at all.

In the written medium, we do not have the luxury of visual cues, and
therefore it is even more important that what is written is as correct as
it possibly can be including grammar and punctuation. I'm sure that you
are well aware that a misplaced comma can completely change the meaning
of a sentence.

I will make the point that some of our friends in here for whom English
is not their first language actually have far better written English
skills than some of those for whom English is their first langauage.

I believe it is the responsibility of the write to make themselves
understood.


Even been to the Netherlands? If so, did you learn Dutch? Didn't think so.
Your primary language is English so you have the luck that your native
language is one of the top languages in the world. I'm Dutch, I don't have
that luxery.

When tourists come to my country they expect us to speak their language,
or at least English. The region I'm in is popular with tourists and I have
yet to meet one that speaks Dutch or even attempts it. They all think
we're fluent in German, English, French or whatever. If I were to try the
same thing abroad (i.e. order some food in Dutch in England) they would
insist I speak English. I've travelled to alot of countries and if you
expect me to have learned all those languages you're out of your mind. I'd
be speaking at least 15 languages by now. I think 3 is enough for me and
by reading I can usually make out what it says in 2 or 3 additional
languages. That's enough for me.

Point is, this is an international newsgroup. People from around the world
come here who's native language isn't English. You can't expect them all
to be fluent in English, either speaking or writing. You say it needs to
be grammatically correct. This is hard because alot of languages differ
greatly grammar wise. Not everyone has a knack for speaking, let alone
writing, another language. Just be glad we're not all coming here writing
our questions/answers in our native language and expecting you to fully
understand what has been written.

--
Rinze van Huizen
C-Services Holland b.v.

Nov 21 '05 #32

P: n/a
Stephany,

I totally agree. Especially if a person is trying to help everyone in the
newsgroup it would be best if they made their answers understandable to the
readers. This is why I kindly pointed out to Cor in the first place that it
would be good to take a refresher course or something in English. Why spend
so much time helping everyone when half of the people can not understand the
answers. I really don't have to say much more because anyone can read
through the newsgroup and see what I mean. I never meant to single out Cor
but the rest of the Dutch writers on here seem to be able to write answers
in English and I understand every word of it. Cor helped me a few times and
I did not get upset. From the things I could understand I took the advice. I
did not start a three mile long thread to argue why the help was wrong. I
might think different but when someone gives me corrective criticism I try
to use it to improve myself.

Debbie
"Stephany Young" <noone@localhost> wrote in message
news:uY**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
That is my whole point. If I had ever been to the Netherlands than I would
have made the effort to learn Dutch to the
extent that I was able to make myself understood.

If the tourists to the Netherlands behave as you describe then that shows
that they are both arrogant and ignorant.

You are absolutely right, this newsgroup has an international
participantship. However, the language of this newsgroup is English. Seeing as how the medium of this newsgroup is written, I don't really care how
fluent someone is or isn't, as the case may be, in spoken English. What I am emphasising is that if one wants to make oneself understood in this medium
it is important that what one writes is phrased in a manner that others can understand.
"C-Services Holland b.v." <cs*@REMOVEcsh4u.nl> wrote in message
news:x_********************@zeelandnet.nl...
Stephany Young wrote:
I'm afraid I have to disagree Doug.

If I was having a verbal conversation with someone for whom English was
not their first language, then I might be prepared to give some leeway,
depending on the effort they were putting in to making themselves
understood. In a verbal conversation one has other cues to help the
situation - facial expression, body language, gesticulation etc.

If, for example, I was going to be visiting France and I wanted to be
understood by the locals then it is my responsibility to learn French to the standard where I can make myself understood. I do not expect the
locals to give me anyway leeway at all.

In the written medium, we do not have the luxury of visual cues, and
therefore it is even more important that what is written is as correct as it possibly can be including grammar and punctuation. I'm sure that you
are well aware that a misplaced comma can completely change the meaning
of a sentence.

I will make the point that some of our friends in here for whom English
is not their first language actually have far better written English
skills than some of those for whom English is their first langauage.

I believe it is the responsibility of the write to make themselves
understood.


Even been to the Netherlands? If so, did you learn Dutch? Didn't think so. Your primary language is English so you have the luck that your native
language is one of the top languages in the world. I'm Dutch, I don't have that luxery.

When tourists come to my country they expect us to speak their language,
or at least English. The region I'm in is popular with tourists and I have yet to meet one that speaks Dutch or even attempts it. They all think
we're fluent in German, English, French or whatever. If I were to try the same thing abroad (i.e. order some food in Dutch in England) they would
insist I speak English. I've travelled to alot of countries and if you
expect me to have learned all those languages you're out of your mind. I'd be speaking at least 15 languages by now. I think 3 is enough for me and
by reading I can usually make out what it says in 2 or 3 additional
languages. That's enough for me.

Point is, this is an international newsgroup. People from around the world come here who's native language isn't English. You can't expect them all
to be fluent in English, either speaking or writing. You say it needs to
be grammatically correct. This is hard because alot of languages differ
greatly grammar wise. Not everyone has a knack for speaking, let alone
writing, another language. Just be glad we're not all coming here writing our questions/answers in our native language and expecting you to fully
understand what has been written.

--
Rinze van Huizen
C-Services Holland b.v.


Nov 21 '05 #33

P: n/a
Rinze,

This is in my opinion not true, we don't allow foreigners to speak Dutch,
how hard they have trained on that. Generaly we directly start with speaking
English to them. When they are than German or French they have the change
that we will take that language.

There is a nice sarcastic page about that on Internet, however I cannot find
it anymore.

In that page is writen by instance, something that as somebody tries to
speak Dutch in Amsterdam, than he is direct a good object for a pickpocket,
because he obviously does not know the rules.

:-)

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #34

P: n/a
Debbie,

There is a minority of the English-speaking people, who think, that because
they can speak English that they are high above the rest of the world.

However, often are they to stupid to understand the problem and think than
that it is because the other ones lack to be able to write in errorless
English.

Lucky enough do Stephany and you not understand what I am writing and
therefore you cannot become upset from this message.

By the way, did you put your message in a spellchecker? In almost every
paragraph, there is an error.

Cor

Nov 21 '05 #35

P: n/a
Stepahny

What do you mean with this word
participantship.


Participants hip maybe, what has that to do with this?

I really don't understood how you dare to write this messages with so many
errors in your own messages.

I even guess that you have an English spellchecker on your mail system,
where the non native English writers have often that not standard activated.

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #36

P: n/a
Cor,
Please point out the mistakes and I will be happy to correct them and
learn from you.
Thank you,
Debbie
"Cor Ligthert" <no************@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:ex**************@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
Debbie,

There is a minority of the English-speaking people, who think, that because they can speak English that they are high above the rest of the world.

However, often are they to stupid to understand the problem and think than
that it is because the other ones lack to be able to write in errorless
English.

Lucky enough do Stephany and you not understand what I am writing and
therefore you cannot become upset from this message.

By the way, did you put your message in a spellchecker? In almost every
paragraph, there is an error.

Cor


Nov 21 '05 #37

P: n/a
After researching various possibilities, I have found a solution that works
for me. I've written it up as a sort of tutorial so that if others are
confused about events and handlers it might help them understand the
concepts better.

Again, the original problem was "how to 'see' events generated from a
control in that control's parent container".

Example, let's say you have a usercontrol that has a button on it. If you
drag your usercontrol onto your form and create a "click" event handler for
it, your click event handler will get called if the user clicks on any part
of your usercontrol except the button. If the user clicks on the button in
the usercontrol your click event handler does not get called.

Problem analysis:

Each control has it's own 'click' event defined. The click event for the
usercontrol is different and distinct from the click event of the button in
the usercontrol. So what you want to do is somehow create a new 'click'
event that both the usercontrol and button can use.

There are a couple of ways to handle this. both involve defining a click
event in your usercontrol that will be shared by the usercontrol and the
button. Let's look at the more involved way first, then I'll show you an
easier way.

The tool that we will use in our solution is the RAISEEVENT statement. This
statement will raise an event that has been defined in your module. The
tricky thing is that you CAN'T use raiseevent to raise an event that has
been defined outside of your module. So, for example, you can't use
raiseevent to raise a standard 'click' event because you have not defined
the standard click event in your module. We need to define our own event.

So, lets start by going into our usercontrol module and defining an event.
Now, even though it's your event and you can define as many or as few
parameters as you wish, let's create an event that has the same number and
type of parameters as the standard "click" event (you'll find out why
later).

Public Event MyClick(ByVal sender As System.Object, ByVal e As
System.EventArgs)

Now that we have defined an event in our usercontrol, we can use the
raiseevent statement to raise that event. But where do we raise it? Just
because we created our own event doesn't mean that the standard system
events are gone. they are still there and we can use them. Specifically, we
need to create a sub for both the click event of the usercontrol and the
click event of the button on the usercontrol and that's where we put our
raiseevent statement.

The click event for the usercontrol will look something like this:

Private Sub UserControl_Click(ByVal sender As Object, ByVal e As
System.EventArgs) Handles MyBase.Click

RaiseEvent MyClick(sender, e)

End Sub

And the click event for the button (assume it's name is Button1) will look
like this:

Private Sub Button1_Click(ByVal sender As System.Object, ByVal e As
System.EventArgs) Handles Button1.Click

RaiseEvent MyClick(sender, e)

End Sub

Now, what happens to the MyClick event when it's raised? It looks for
something to tell it where to go. That something is called a Delegate. A
Delegate links the event to the routine that will handle it. Now, if you've
used VB.Net at all you have probably used delegates without realizing it.
As a matter of fact, you used one already. The "Handles" clause above is a
delegate that links the "Button1.Click" event to the "Button1_Click" sub.

The "Handles" is one form of specifying a delegate. Although it doesn't
apply to our example, another way (at runtime) to specify (or change) a
delegate is by using an ADDHANDLER statement, like this:

AddHandler Button1.Click, AddressOf Button1_Click1

Back to our story. we need to go into our form where the usercontrol is
being used, and create something to handle our 'MyClick" event. So we will
need code like this:

Private Sub MyButton1_Click1(ByVal sender As Object, ByVal e As
System.EventArgs) Handles MyButton1.MyClick

MsgBox("I clicked MyButton1 on the main form")

End Sub

In the above example MyButton1 is the name we gave to the instance of the
usercontrol we dragged onto the form. So MyButton1 is an instance of
"usercontrol".

When the usercontrol class raises the event, that event is raised on every
class that has elected to handle events for that instance of the object.
The "Handles MyButton1.MyClick" tells the system that this routine will
handle the event raised in the "usercontrol" class instance called
"MyButton1". Wow, I hope that's clear..

We could stop here and everything above would work fine, but I promised you
an easier way to do the same thing.

Remember that to get our example to work we created a custom event in the
usercontrol class, and added a "handler" or "delegate" in our main form to
handle that event. We can cut our work in half by creating an event in our
usercontrol that has THE SAME NAME as an event that our main form already
knows about. What could we call the event??? How about "Click". Our main
form already knows about the "click" event, and by naming our own event
"click" we wouldn't have to make any changes in the main form. We would
just handle the "click" event in the main form as we normally would.
Therefore, the only changes we need would be in our usercontrol code. So,
how exactly do you create your own event that has the same name as an
already existing event? The answer is that you have to use the SHADOWS
keyword when defining your event. When an event is declared with the
shadows keyword it "hides" the existing event and, your custom event sort of
takes over for that original event. Here's how it looks in code. Put this
in the usercontrol class outside of any procedures.

Public Shadows Event Click(ByVal sender As System.Object, ByVal e As
System.EventArgs)

This statement takes the place of the "Public Event MyClick" that we used
before. Now that you are using "Click" as the name of your event instead of
"MyClick" the RaiseEvent statement has to look like this:

RaiseEvent Click(sender, e)

Remember that, like the previous example, the RaiseEvent statement is in the
event handlers for the "click" event for your usercontrol and the button on
your usercontrol. So why is this not a conflict? How does the system
differentiate between your click event and the normal click event? It's
actually easy. When you specify a handler for the click event in the normal
way (ie: ..handles button.click or handles mybase.click) the system
defaults to using the standard system event. But the RaiseEvent, by
definition, can only raise an event that was defined in the module it's in,
so the RaiseEvent can ONLY raise the click event that you defined.

By shadowing the system click event you eliminated the need to make any code
changes in the main form. This is why, in the previous example, I chose to
define my custom click event with the same number and type of parameters as
the standard system click event. I knew that I would eventually be
"replacing" the standard click event with my own and wanted the parameters
(ie: signature) to match. To continue the explanation, simply dragging your
usercontrol onto your main form and setting it's "click" event (as you would
normally do for any control) works just fine with your custom 'click' event,
and anywhere you click on your usercontrol, that usercontrol's click event
will be fired. Just what we wanted..

Hope this helps clear up the concept of events and how to handle them.

John


Nov 21 '05 #38

P: n/a
Cor Ligthert wrote:
Rinze,

This is in my opinion not true, we don't allow foreigners to speak Dutch,
how hard they have trained on that. Generaly we directly start with speaking
English to them. When they are than German or French they have the change
that we will take that language.


Maybe in Amsterdam. But here in Zeeland we don't.. up to a point. In
summer they (shops) expect every customer to be German and start talking
to you in German ;)

If someone starts off in Dutch, no matter how crooked, we don't
automatically switch to German/English or whatever.
--
Rinze van Huizen
C-Services Holland b.v.
Nov 21 '05 #39

P: n/a
Stephany Young wrote:
That is my whole point. If I had ever been to the Netherlands than I would
have made the effort to learn Dutch to the
extent that I was able to make myself understood.

If the tourists to the Netherlands behave as you describe then that shows
that they are both arrogant and ignorant.

You are absolutely right, this newsgroup has an international
participantship. However, the language of this newsgroup is English. Seeing
as how the medium of this newsgroup is written, I don't really care how
fluent someone is or isn't, as the case may be, in spoken English. What I am
emphasising is that if one wants to make oneself understood in this medium
it is important that what one writes is phrased in a manner that others can
understand.


Have you ever been abroad (and I do mean to a country where the main
language isn't English)? Like I said, if you'd travelled as much as I
have you'd be speaking 15 languages by now. I'm sorry, but that's
totally unbelievable. Aside from that, speaking a language is far easier
than writing a language grammatically correct with every comma and
period in the right place. Seems to me you have no concept of how other
languages differ (i.e. scentance building, singular/plural differces,
etc). These differences easily lead to small errors such as forgotten
words or words in the wrong place or order since in a persons native
language that would actually be correct.

You say you would have made the effort to make yourself understood in
Dutch (you have no idea how hard Dutch is to foreigners :P). I applaud
that. But if I had the same opinion you display here that would be
insufficient. You'd better make sure you speak it flawlessly. That's no
less than you demand of the people that write here.

In my opinion you essentially demanding people to write English
flawlessly in this newsgroup is just as arrogant and ignorant as you
call the tourists that come to my country.

quote- "it is important that what one writes is phrased in a manner that
others can understand."

That I agree with. That doesn't mean that what is written has to be 100%
correct English. We're not talking life and death situations here where
a slight misunderstanding might lead to a planecrash. If you don't
understand someone's answer or are confused by what or how they write
something, you can simply ask them to clarify it but don't get all high
and mighty about them not being able to write a decent English scentance.

--
Rinze van Huizen
C-Services Holland b.v.
Nov 21 '05 #40

P: n/a
On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:12:06 +0200, "C-Services Holland b.v."
<cs*@REMOVEcsh4u.nl> wrote:
Stephany Young wrote:
That is my whole point. If I had ever been to the Netherlands than I would
have made the effort to learn Dutch to the
extent that I was able to make myself understood.

If the tourists to the Netherlands behave as you describe then that shows
that they are both arrogant and ignorant.

You are absolutely right, this newsgroup has an international
participantship. However, the language of this newsgroup is English. Seeing
as how the medium of this newsgroup is written, I don't really care how
fluent someone is or isn't, as the case may be, in spoken English. What I am
emphasising is that if one wants to make oneself understood in this medium
it is important that what one writes is phrased in a manner that others can
understand.

Have you ever been abroad (and I do mean to a country where the main
language isn't English)? Like I said, if you'd travelled as much as I
have you'd be speaking 15 languages by now. I'm sorry, but that's
totally unbelievable. Aside from that, speaking a language is far easier
than writing a language grammatically correct with every comma and
period in the right place. Seems to me you have no concept of how other
languages differ (i.e. scentance building, singular/plural differces,
etc). These differences easily lead to small errors such as forgotten
words or words in the wrong place or order since in a persons native
language that would actually be correct.


An additional problem is the lack of clearly defined rules in English
Grammar, it is not like French where the rules are relatively hard and
fast. It is easy to write gramatically correct, but idiomatically odd
English.

For example "I am speaking to you about this problem"
"I speak to you about this problem." are both gramatically correct,
but a native English speaker would probably say "I want to speak to
you about this problem."

Of course in Europe, we only have to go a few hundred kilometres to be
in a different country, speaking a different language, so perhaps we
are more used to adjusting.

Doug Taylor
You say you would have made the effort to make yourself understood in
Dutch (you have no idea how hard Dutch is to foreigners :P). I applaud
that. But if I had the same opinion you display here that would be
insufficient. You'd better make sure you speak it flawlessly. That's no
less than you demand of the people that write here.

In my opinion you essentially demanding people to write English
flawlessly in this newsgroup is just as arrogant and ignorant as you
call the tourists that come to my country.

quote- "it is important that what one writes is phrased in a manner that
others can understand."

That I agree with. That doesn't mean that what is written has to be 100%
correct English. We're not talking life and death situations here where
a slight misunderstanding might lead to a planecrash. If you don't
understand someone's answer or are confused by what or how they write
something, you can simply ask them to clarify it but don't get all high
and mighty about them not being able to write a decent English scentance.


Nov 21 '05 #41

P: n/a
Cor Ligthert wrote:
Debbie,

There is a minority of the English-speaking people, who think, that because
they can speak English that they are high above the rest of the world.

However, often are they to stupid to understand the problem and think than
that it is because the other ones lack to be able to write in errorless
English.

Lucky enough do Stephany and you not understand what I am writing and
therefore you cannot become upset from this message.

By the way, did you put your message in a spellchecker? In almost every
paragraph, there is an error.

Cor


Wow this looks like it got out of hand.
Cor,

This is not meant to offend you and is not written from a high above you
perspective.

I also have a hard time understanding some of your posts to this group.
This lack of understanding has little to do with spelling errors.
Most spelling errors are easily spotted and rarely make a post unable to
be understood. It also has little to do with error free English. I'm
sure that my post right now is not errorless English but I am fairly
certain that the vast majority of readers will be able to understand my
meaning.

You have a great deal of knowledge about vb.net. You are very active in
this group and very generous to spend so much of your time to help
others. It is the very fact that you are so active and helpful that
makes it more frustrating when your posts are hard to understand. It is
also the reason that someone would take the time to bring this subject
to your attention.

In my opinion you have a choice on how you receive and respond to this.
1. You can become offended and angry.
2. You can become aware that the people you are trying to help are
having a hard time understanding your meaning and decide whether or not
to take steps to improve communication.

Thank you for your time.
Slonocode
Nov 21 '05 #42

This discussion thread is closed

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