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New Conversation: Stand Alone EXE non .NET

Ok, we all know a stand alone .NET EXE isn't possible, unless you want to
shell out $4k (see previous post with similar subject). Frankly, I don't.
Given that, what are the options for VB programmers?

1. There's VB6. One acronym and one word: DLL Hell (tip of the hat to
Microsoft for this one).
2. There's learn Java, which is slow and has a really funky interface. Why
do that any way if you know you'll always be on a Win machine. Well, maybe
you'd like to keep your options open. Ok, I'm with that.
3. There's C++ but see #1.
4. Any takers?

The application should meet a few basic requirements:
1. GUI interface
2. Some type of ability for database connection. Since we're on a desktop
machine, preferrably MS Access or I think the MDE, which probably doesn't
require MS Access. Ideal also is an open source Java database, which is
free and has a very small footprint:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/firebird/ or
http://sourceforge.net/projects/hsqldb/

As for programming language, I'd like to hear any suggestions. Anything
goes. What would you build it in and why?

Thanks,
Brett
Nov 21 '05 #1
13 1518
After using C++ for many years... I would say go with that. Microsoft Visual
C++ is fabulous!! Although, it depends on if you are a real hardcore coder or
not :))
Nov 21 '05 #2
After using C++ for many years... I would say go with that. Microsoft Visual
C++ is fabulous!! Although, it depends on if you are a real hardcore coder or
not :))
Nov 21 '05 #3
"Brett" <no@spam.net> schrieb:
Ok, we all know a stand alone .NET EXE isn't possible, unless you want to
shell out $4k (see previous post with similar subject). Frankly, I don't.
Given that, what are the options for VB programmers?

1. There's VB6. One acronym and one word: DLL Hell (tip of the hat to
Microsoft for this one).
2. There's learn Java, which is slow and has a really funky interface.
Why do that any way if you know you'll always be on a Win machine. Well,
maybe you'd like to keep your options open. Ok, I'm with that.
Java will require a ~13 MB runtime environment too that is not present on
all machines.
3. There's C++ but see #1.
4. Any takers?


Delphi, for example.

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 21 '05 #4
"Brett" <no@spam.net> schrieb:
Ok, we all know a stand alone .NET EXE isn't possible, unless you want to
shell out $4k (see previous post with similar subject). Frankly, I don't.
Given that, what are the options for VB programmers?

1. There's VB6. One acronym and one word: DLL Hell (tip of the hat to
Microsoft for this one).
2. There's learn Java, which is slow and has a really funky interface.
Why do that any way if you know you'll always be on a Win machine. Well,
maybe you'd like to keep your options open. Ok, I'm with that.
Java will require a ~13 MB runtime environment too that is not present on
all machines.
3. There's C++ but see #1.
4. Any takers?


Delphi, for example.

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 21 '05 #5

"Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hi***************@gmx.at> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
"Brett" <no@spam.net> schrieb:
Ok, we all know a stand alone .NET EXE isn't possible, unless you want to
shell out $4k (see previous post with similar subject). Frankly, I don't.
Given that, what are the options for VB programmers?

1. There's VB6. One acronym and one word: DLL Hell (tip of the hat to
Microsoft for this one).
2. There's learn Java, which is slow and has a really funky interface.
Why do that any way if you know you'll always be on a Win machine. Well,
maybe you'd like to keep your options open. Ok, I'm with that.
Java will require a ~13 MB runtime environment too that is not present on
all machines.


Great rebuttal.
3. There's C++ but see #1.
4. Any takers?


Delphi, for example.


Excellent - Delphi. I used this a while back when working for this one
company. This has to one of the most under rated programming languages on
the market. It's easy to learn, has a nice IDE and doesn't require any
extras. Just your EXE. Perhaps the install package will put together what
ever EXEs you require. Can you confirm this?

Do users have a difficult time installing Delphi EXEs as they do MS based
EXEs?

Also, what would you use to store data on the user machine? In other
words - database but one that doesn't require something extra already be on
the user's machine (such as Java or .NET)?

Thanks,
Brett
Nov 21 '05 #6

"Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hi***************@gmx.at> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
"Brett" <no@spam.net> schrieb:
Ok, we all know a stand alone .NET EXE isn't possible, unless you want to
shell out $4k (see previous post with similar subject). Frankly, I don't.
Given that, what are the options for VB programmers?

1. There's VB6. One acronym and one word: DLL Hell (tip of the hat to
Microsoft for this one).
2. There's learn Java, which is slow and has a really funky interface.
Why do that any way if you know you'll always be on a Win machine. Well,
maybe you'd like to keep your options open. Ok, I'm with that.
Java will require a ~13 MB runtime environment too that is not present on
all machines.


Great rebuttal.
3. There's C++ but see #1.
4. Any takers?


Delphi, for example.


Excellent - Delphi. I used this a while back when working for this one
company. This has to one of the most under rated programming languages on
the market. It's easy to learn, has a nice IDE and doesn't require any
extras. Just your EXE. Perhaps the install package will put together what
ever EXEs you require. Can you confirm this?

Do users have a difficult time installing Delphi EXEs as they do MS based
EXEs?

Also, what would you use to store data on the user machine? In other
words - database but one that doesn't require something extra already be on
the user's machine (such as Java or .NET)?

Thanks,
Brett
Nov 21 '05 #7
Brett,
As Herfried suggests Java also has a framework that needs to be installed.

In addition to Delphi there is always MS Access or MS FoxPro, both of which
have frameworks/runtimes that need to be installed.

Personally I would use VB.NET as its a full OO environment. Gaining me all
the benefits of OO for development & maintenance.

Over time the framework will be pre-installed on more & more machines, so
the 20M+ download is largely immaterial for the applications that I develop.

Hope this helps
Jay
"Brett" <no@spam.net> wrote in message
news:OW**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Ok, we all know a stand alone .NET EXE isn't possible, unless you want to
shell out $4k (see previous post with similar subject). Frankly, I don't.
Given that, what are the options for VB programmers?

1. There's VB6. One acronym and one word: DLL Hell (tip of the hat to
Microsoft for this one).
2. There's learn Java, which is slow and has a really funky interface.
Why do that any way if you know you'll always be on a Win machine. Well,
maybe you'd like to keep your options open. Ok, I'm with that.
3. There's C++ but see #1.
4. Any takers?

The application should meet a few basic requirements:
1. GUI interface
2. Some type of ability for database connection. Since we're on a desktop
machine, preferrably MS Access or I think the MDE, which probably doesn't
require MS Access. Ideal also is an open source Java database, which is
free and has a very small footprint:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/firebird/ or
http://sourceforge.net/projects/hsqldb/

As for programming language, I'd like to hear any suggestions. Anything
goes. What would you build it in and why?

Thanks,
Brett

Nov 21 '05 #8

"Jay B. Harlow [MVP - Outlook]" <Ja************@msn.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Brett,
As Herfried suggests Java also has a framework that needs to be installed.

In addition to Delphi there is always MS Access or MS FoxPro, both of
which have frameworks/runtimes that need to be installed.
Not sure what you mean on Delphi. It doesn't require a 20+ meg download.
You compile the EXE, distribute and that's that. No frameworks on client
machine required.

Personally I would use VB.NET as its a full OO environment. Gaining me all
the benefits of OO for development & maintenance.


This just isn't feasible and won't be for quite a while if you want a large
audience.
Nov 21 '05 #9
Brett,
Darn English grammar. :-(
In addition to Delphi there is always MS Access or MS FoxPro, both of
which have frameworks/runtimes that need to be installed.
Not sure what you mean on Delphi. It doesn't require a 20+ meg download.


"Both of which have frameworks" is referring only to MS Access & MS FoxPro.

"In addition to Delphi" is only introductory text to the statement.
Personally I would use VB.NET as its a full OO environment. Gaining me
all the benefits of OO for development & maintenance.

This just isn't feasible and won't be for quite a while if you want a
large audience.

??
Are you suggesting that VB.NET is not OO?
Are you suggesting that OO does not have benefits for development &
maintenance?

I suspect that you were suggesting that the framework is not on all
desktops. I agree, however the pendulum is slowing swinging from where it is
on more & more desktops. So the choice of using .NET or not depends on the
types of apps you are developing & who your target market is. For me VB.NET
fits the types of apps I am developing & my target market!

Also remember your target audience only needs to install the framework once!
Once the framework is installed they can install any number of .NET apps. As
developers develop more & more .NET apps the chances of having the framework
on the desktop increases. Yes its a chicken & egg problem. Me personally
favors writing in .NET to get the number of apps up, to increase the chances
of having the framework installed.

Also remember that you only need a single version of the Framework
installed. For example most 1.0 apps will run on 1.1, as do most 1.1 apps
run on 1.0.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...eexecution.asp

My understanding is that 2.0 will run 1.0 apps & 1.1 apps, but that 1.0 &
1.1 will not run 2.0 apps...

http://blogs.msdn.com/brada/archive/...18/398581.aspx

Hope this helps
Jay

"Brett" <no@spam.net> wrote in message
news:u3**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
"Jay B. Harlow [MVP - Outlook]" <Ja************@msn.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Brett,
As Herfried suggests Java also has a framework that needs to be
installed.

In addition to Delphi there is always MS Access or MS FoxPro, both of
which have frameworks/runtimes that need to be installed.


Not sure what you mean on Delphi. It doesn't require a 20+ meg download.
You compile the EXE, distribute and that's that. No frameworks on client
machine required.

Personally I would use VB.NET as its a full OO environment. Gaining me
all the benefits of OO for development & maintenance.


This just isn't feasible and won't be for quite a while if you want a
large audience.

Nov 21 '05 #10
>> Personally I would use VB.NET as its a full OO environment. Gaining me
all the benefits of OO for development & maintenance. This just isn't feasible and won't be for quite a while if you want a
large audience.

??
Are you suggesting that VB.NET is not OO?
Are you suggesting that OO does not have benefits for development &
maintenance?

I suspect that you were suggesting that the framework is not on all
desktops.

Yes - that's right.
I agree, however the pendulum is slowing swinging from where it is on more
& more desktops. So the choice of using .NET or not depends on the types
of apps you are developing & who your target market is. For me VB.NET fits
the types of apps I am developing & my target market!
I would rather do it in VB.NET because the potential for very rich
applications is large. However, creating something in Delphi 2005 Pro for
example, allows you to distribute one EXE with runtime. If you have
everything install into the same directory (EXE and runtime), you avoid DLL
Hell and get away with an overall smaller download. It is true if .NET is
on the target machine, the equivalent VB.NET app will probably be much
smaller. However, if the Delphi runtime is also on the target machine, you
can distribute only the Delphi EXE, beating out the VB.NET app.

Also remember your target audience only needs to install the framework
once! Once the framework is installed they can install any number of .NET
apps. As developers develop more & more .NET apps the chances of having
the framework on the desktop increases. Yes its a chicken & egg problem.
Me personally favors writing in .NET to get the number of apps up, to
increase the chances of having the framework installed.


It's similar to writing a DHTML or Flash website before those things were
ever popular. You'll feel the pain for some time. Is it really worth it in
this case to be an early player? From a business point, I think not. Wait
until the field catches up; until more people have .NET installed. You may
ask, well if every one thinks that way, no one will write VB.NET apps. Not
true because every one won't think that way. There are companies with
customers that want a certain thing and will install the .NET Framework to
get it.

The end result, what ever angle you want to look at it, is that you are
developing for a very small audience. You can't get away from that and your
profits will suffer. That part is simple. Develope for the largest common
denominator, say a simple Win95/NT machine and an application that doesn't
include many third party components, and you have a higher potential of
gaining more customers and increasing your profits.

Brett
Nov 21 '05 #11
hmm strange story

I develop apps for thousands of users across Europe

These programs are shipped on a cd-rom and we never had any problems with VB
and the so called dll hell ,, it has more to do on how many time you wish to
spend on a decent setup program

In comparisation with VB 6 and Delphi i do not see the big difference also
Delphi needs it`s runtimes

The only disadvantage with VB.Net is in my opinion that Windows 98 is not
fully suported so i have to wait at least one year before i am gonna ship
all my programs as a VB.NET executable
then i will provide the framework with my setup for those computers who do
not have it installed yet

Okay a 20 meg extra in my redistribute package , but how about the Dcom ,
Mdac etc etc packages you needed in the past with VB6 ( also with Delphi if
you want to do some real life programming to databases )

And euhmm our programs are targeted to the Automotive Branche and we have
20.000 installations throughout Europe and these companny`s are known for
the old hardware they are using to run our propgrams on ( a automotive
parts catalog ) with our vb6 executable we support Win 95 and higher
running on a Pentium II 233 mhz with 128 mb Memory
if i can switch in one year from now to A VB.NET executable ,,,,,, then
who is your target audience ( a siberian sheep tender ? )

Also verry strange is that you believe Java is a good alternative ,,, well
it isn`t ,, Also java needs a big runtime environment , and it is soooooo
slooooowwwwww especially with data sot this is absolutely a no go

Well if you really want to have a fast program , with a minimum of runtimes
( or for a fact none if you go the hardcore way ) then write everything in
pure C or Assembly then ask your boss to assign a team of a few dozen
people to write that program because if you do it allone you will be
finished when there are flying cars through your street and a robot cleans
up your mess at home .

About Delphi vs VB well i choose the MS way as the operating system is made
by MS products from other vendors must run better on it won`t they ???
also Oracle runs much bether on Windows as MS SQL Server yeahhh !! and
pigs can fly
M. Posseth [ MCP ]

p.s.
No i am not brainwashed by MS Bill and Steve are just my 2 idols :-)


"Brett" <no@spam.net> wrote in message
news:On**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
Personally I would use VB.NET as its a full OO environment. Gaining me
all the benefits of OO for development & maintenance.
This just isn't feasible and won't be for quite a while if you want a
large audience. ??
Are you suggesting that VB.NET is not OO?
Are you suggesting that OO does not have benefits for development &
maintenance?

I suspect that you were suggesting that the framework is not on all
desktops.

Yes - that's right.
I agree, however the pendulum is slowing swinging from where it is on more & more desktops. So the choice of using .NET or not depends on the types
of apps you are developing & who your target market is. For me VB.NET fits the types of apps I am developing & my target market!


I would rather do it in VB.NET because the potential for very rich
applications is large. However, creating something in Delphi 2005 Pro for
example, allows you to distribute one EXE with runtime. If you have
everything install into the same directory (EXE and runtime), you avoid

DLL Hell and get away with an overall smaller download. It is true if .NET is
on the target machine, the equivalent VB.NET app will probably be much
smaller. However, if the Delphi runtime is also on the target machine, you can distribute only the Delphi EXE, beating out the VB.NET app.

Also remember your target audience only needs to install the framework
once! Once the framework is installed they can install any number of ..NET apps. As developers develop more & more .NET apps the chances of having
the framework on the desktop increases. Yes its a chicken & egg problem.
Me personally favors writing in .NET to get the number of apps up, to
increase the chances of having the framework installed.
It's similar to writing a DHTML or Flash website before those things were
ever popular. You'll feel the pain for some time. Is it really worth it

in this case to be an early player? From a business point, I think not. Wait until the field catches up; until more people have .NET installed. You may
ask, well if every one thinks that way, no one will write VB.NET apps. Not true because every one won't think that way. There are companies with
customers that want a certain thing and will install the .NET Framework to
get it.

The end result, what ever angle you want to look at it, is that you are
developing for a very small audience. You can't get away from that and your profits will suffer. That part is simple. Develope for the largest common denominator, say a simple Win95/NT machine and an application that doesn't
include many third party components, and you have a higher potential of
gaining more customers and increasing your profits.

Brett

Nov 21 '05 #12
M.

I once was invited to help somebody to make a program running (not mine).
Than I saw that the vendor had used for his installation different runtimer
and DLL versions every time on different places and partially as well in (I
don't remember it me that good anymore however let say) in Win32.

You are right, when it is good organized there should not be a DLL hell.

I don't know if you have childs, when you have those, are you than also that
glad with those games that install completly DirectX 5.0 for you new without
to ask that?

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #13

"M. Posseth" <mi*****@nohausystems.nl> wrote in message
news:d1**********@reader13.wxs.nl...
hmm strange story

I develop apps for thousands of users across Europe

These programs are shipped on a cd-rom and we never had any problems with
VB
and the so called dll hell ,, it has more to do on how many time you wish
to
spend on a decent setup program
Your a lucky man than. I've always encountered problems with VB installs.

In comparisation with VB 6 and Delphi i do not see the big difference
also
Delphi needs it`s runtimes


Delphi will need it runtimes unless they are installed on the target
machine. It's best just to build the EXE with runtimes. Still, this EXE
will be smaller than the VB6 equivalent. Also, there will not be the
problems of installing the app that VB6 encounters because of DLL versions
or overwriting system DLLs.
Nov 21 '05 #14

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