--
hello
I used to teach VB6 at schools, adult colleges a few years ago. Having seen
a bit of VB.net I am a little shocked to say the least. The idea of teaching
VB.net to beginners is way harder than VB6 and VB6 was a challenge.
The whole look and feel is more difficult...OK for me but I would go broke
as a teacher if I had to teach VB.net. As the most popular programming
language around why has MS made something easy to do now more complicated in
the name of progress? This looks like a university research project being let
out too early. Trying to please everyone in other languages has made VB less
accessable to the public and with faster computers around I cant see how this
is better.
I tried finding help for a simple textbox on the help index and it was
absurdly difficult.
I am speaking from an education pont of view as I myself can pick this up.
17  2267 
"john andrew" <jo********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:6D**********************************@microsof t.com... I used to teach VB6 at schools, adult colleges a few years ago. Having
seen
a bit of VB.net I am a little shocked to say the least. The idea of
teaching
VB.net to beginners is way harder than VB6 and VB6 was a challenge.
I replied to your other message - but personally I think it is much better
to teach VB.NET than VB6, if only because it is more standard, so makes a
better foundation for programming in general.
Tim
..NET pros and cons http://www.itwriting.com/phorum/list.php?f=6
<snip>
go broke teaching vb.net ? I would of thought it was the opposite...
as far as simple apps go you can write them in almost the same way as you
would in vb6 - sure a few syntax bits and pieces have changed but its not
the end of the world. .net really isn't any more complicated than vb6 and in
the real world its far more useful.
What I'd be doing in your shoes is thinking about offering advanced vb.net
and OO courses that your students to progress to once they have completed
the primary course.
John,
Because it is possible to use in VBNet OOP (while all Net classes are OOP)
has it much more consistency and is in my opinion easier to learn.
When you know the tricks of OOP you can make everything in that way and in
that style what makes it in my opinion more portable.
VB classic is in my opinion more a language from what was a connection
between the programmer and the enduser, what went with every version more
and more going to the programmer.
VNNet has in my opinion brokken with that, although I understand that
Microsoft trys to bring parts from it in the new version again more back to
that old in between situation. You understand it, I find that a pity.
Just my thought,
Cor
"john andrew" <jo********@discussions.microsoft.com>
--
hello
I used to teach VB6 at schools, adult colleges a few years ago. Having
seen
a bit of VB.net I am a little shocked to say the least. The idea of
teaching
VB.net to beginners is way harder than VB6 and VB6 was a challenge.
The whole look and feel is more difficult...OK for me but I would go broke
as a teacher if I had to teach VB.net. As the most popular programming
language around why has MS made something easy to do now more complicated
in
the name of progress? This looks like a university research project being
let
out too early. Trying to please everyone in other languages has made VB
less
accessable to the public and with faster computers around I cant see how
this
is better.
I tried finding help for a simple textbox on the help index and it was
absurdly difficult.
I am speaking from an education pont of view as I myself can pick this up.
"Cor Ligthert" wrote: John,
Because it is possible to use in VBNet OOP (while all Net classes are OOP)
has it much more consistency and is in my opinion easier to learn.
When you know the tricks of OOP you can make everything in that way and in
that style what makes it in my opinion more portable.
VB classic is in my opinion more a language from what was a connection
between the programmer and the enduser, what went with every version more
and more going to the programmer.
VNNet has in my opinion brokken with that, although I understand that
Microsoft trys to bring parts from it in the new version again more back to
that old in between situation. You understand it, I find that a pity.
Just my thought,
Cor
"john andrew" <jo********@discussions.microsoft.com>
--
hello
I used to teach VB6 at schools, adult colleges a few years ago. Having
seen
a bit of VB.net I am a little shocked to say the least. The idea of
teaching
VB.net to beginners is way harder than VB6 and VB6 was a challenge.
The whole look and feel is more difficult...OK for me but I would go broke
as a teacher if I had to teach VB.net. As the most popular programming
language around why has MS made something easy to do now more complicated
in
the name of progress? This looks like a university research project being
let
out too early. Trying to please everyone in other languages has made VB
less
accessable to the public and with faster computers around I cant see how
this
is better.
I tried finding help for a simple textbox on the help index and it was
absurdly difficult.
I am speaking from an education pont of view as I myself can pick this up.
I can handle VB.net personally because of my background. From a business
perspective VB.net is a hard sell and you can argue that point. The problem
with VB.net is that people want to do jobs...no one cares about OO. C++ and
Java are OO.....why arent they as popular as VB. I expect to see a
streamlining of VB.net in future editions.The university I went to ...which
is very credible didnt like VB.net and still teach vb6. Also why is there
busy VB6 msgboards....because people like to do tasks not OO. Another school
I was at today told me they didnt like VB.net either.
Reading about the .net ambition as I understand was that MS was scared of
Linux or any other competing OS. I like Linux but it is so user-unfriendly it
isnt worth losing sleep over and I cant see the world buying Mac's either. I
was a teacher and I reckon I have a good grasp of peoles tastes in OS. MS
tried to please everyone with portable code (like Java.....and that didnt
really take off) and incorporate every language. Why so desperate a move? too
many young programmers need to prove themselves too quickly?OO has been
around a while.
As for someone who used to teach VB6 and found students struggled
enough....VB.net is something I cant take seriously as a business proposition
and the online help is really Awful, I just want a basic example of how to
use some code not a library of OO theory . No way could I feel confident in
pointing a student to use it and understand it.
I will get into it and do VB.net over time and I am sure I will enjoy it.
Sorry if I offended anyone as this is such a great resource with a load of
great replies.
"Tim Anderson" <ti*****@hotmail.com> schrieb: I used to teach VB6 at schools, adult colleges a few years ago. Having
seen
a bit of VB.net I am a little shocked to say the least. The idea of
teaching
VB.net to beginners is way harder than VB6 and VB6 was a challenge.
I replied to your other message - but personally I think it is much better
to teach VB.NET than VB6, if only because it is more standard, so makes a
better foundation for programming in general.
I think the primary goal of teaching a certain programming language is not
to make the student a professional programmer in this language. It's more
about teaching concepts on a sample programming language. These concepts
can be applied to many other programming languages. From this perspective,
VB had certain advantages over VB.NET: In VB6 it was very easy to write
procedural code, learn recursion and iteration and simple data structures
without touching OOP. This reduced the complexity for the student and
helped to put the focus on the the things learned in school. Take Java as a
bad example for a programming language used to teach programming: When
writing a /simple/ "Hello World" application you will have to know OO
knowledge. You have to understand keywords like 'class' and 'static'. That
makes learning programming languages like VB.NET, C#, and Java harder than
learning VB Classic.
--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/dotnet/faqs/>
"Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hi***************@gmx.at> wrote in message
news:O6**************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl... "Tim Anderson" <ti*****@hotmail.com> schrieb:
I think the primary goal of teaching a certain programming language is not
to make the student a professional programmer in this language. It's more
about teaching concepts on a sample programming language.
However you don't know which of your students may go on to become
professionals. So a good foundation is important.
VB had certain advantages over VB.NET: In VB6 it was very easy to write
procedural code, learn recursion and iteration and simple data structures
without touching OOP. This reduced the complexity for the student and
helped to put the focus on the the things learned in school.
I'm not convinced that VB.NET is much different. Let's say you want to teach
the if statement. In VB6 you have to work through the IDE, so you say, OK,
start a new app with a form, put a button on the form, double-click the
button and now you can write some code that executes when the button is
clicked. Just write the code where the IDE tells you, and it will run.
There's no need to learn about event handlers for this simple task. In
VB.NET you can do exactly the same.
Tim
IE share declining - does it make a difference? http://www.itwriting.com/blog/?postid=106
John,
There is are advantage to VBNet in my opinion above the classic OO
languages.
It is does not look as build on theories however on practise. When you are
using VBNet you can make of course something wrong as you can do with almost
every program language.
However being busy with it you automaticly goes to OOP because it is usefull
and saves you time. Something what is in my opinion the same for C# by the
way before this is misunderstood.
You are not busy making a lot of classes. Most are already there, and going
on in the route is very easy. As well is inheriting from the most standard
Net classes very easy to do, and therefore you are not building from scratch
everytime. And than as last the documentation is overwhelming.
Just a little addition trying to make what I think more clear
Cor
"john andrew" <jo********@discussions.microsoft.com>
"Cor Ligthert" wrote:
John,
Because it is possible to use in VBNet OOP (while all Net classes are
OOP)
has it much more consistency and is in my opinion easier to learn.
When you know the tricks of OOP you can make everything in that way and
in
that style what makes it in my opinion more portable.
VB classic is in my opinion more a language from what was a connection
between the programmer and the enduser, what went with every version
more
and more going to the programmer.
VNNet has in my opinion brokken with that, although I understand that
Microsoft trys to bring parts from it in the new version again more back
to
that old in between situation. You understand it, I find that a pity.
Just my thought,
Cor
"john andrew" <jo********@discussions.microsoft.com> >
> --
> hello
>
> I used to teach VB6 at schools, adult colleges a few years ago. Having
> seen
> a bit of VB.net I am a little shocked to say the least. The idea of
> teaching
> VB.net to beginners is way harder than VB6 and VB6 was a challenge.
>
> The whole look and feel is more difficult...OK for me but I would go
> broke
> as a teacher if I had to teach VB.net. As the most popular programming
> language around why has MS made something easy to do now more
> complicated
> in
> the name of progress? This looks like a university research project
> being
> let
> out too early. Trying to please everyone in other languages has made VB
> less
> accessable to the public and with faster computers around I cant see
> how
> this
> is better.
> I tried finding help for a simple textbox on the help index and it was
> absurdly difficult.
>
> I am speaking from an education pont of view as I myself can pick this
> up.
>
I can handle VB.net personally because of my background. From a business
perspective VB.net is a hard sell and you can argue that point. The
problem
with VB.net is that people want to do jobs...no one cares about OO. C++
and
Java are OO.....why arent they as popular as VB. I expect to see a
streamlining of VB.net in future editions.The university I went to
...which
is very credible didnt like VB.net and still teach vb6. Also why is there
busy VB6 msgboards....because people like to do tasks not OO. Another
school
I was at today told me they didnt like VB.net either.
Reading about the .net ambition as I understand was that MS was scared of
Linux or any other competing OS. I like Linux but it is so user-unfriendly
it
isnt worth losing sleep over and I cant see the world buying Mac's either.
I
was a teacher and I reckon I have a good grasp of peoles tastes in OS. MS
tried to please everyone with portable code (like Java.....and that didnt
really take off) and incorporate every language. Why so desperate a move?
too
many young programmers need to prove themselves too quickly?OO has been
around a while.
As for someone who used to teach VB6 and found students struggled
enough....VB.net is something I cant take seriously as a business
proposition
and the online help is really Awful, I just want a basic example of how to
use some code not a library of OO theory . No way could I feel confident
in
pointing a student to use it and understand it.
I will get into it and do VB.net over time and I am sure I will enjoy it.
Sorry if I offended anyone as this is such a great resource with a load of
great replies.
"john andrew" <jo********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:6D**********************************@microsof t.com...
--
hello
I used to teach VB6 at schools, adult colleges a few years ago. Having
seen a bit of VB.net I am a little shocked to say the least. The idea of
teaching VB.net to beginners is way harder than VB6 and VB6 was a challenge.
The whole look and feel is more difficult...OK for me but I would go broke
as a teacher if I had to teach VB.net. As the most popular programming
language around why has MS made something easy to do now more complicated
in the name of progress? This looks like a university research project being
let out too early. Trying to please everyone in other languages has made VB
less accessable to the public and with faster computers around I cant see how
this is better.
I tried finding help for a simple textbox on the help index and it was
absurdly difficult.
I am speaking from an education pont of view as I myself can pick this up.
You may want to look at one or several of the many textbooks available for
beginning Visual Basic .NET before you conclude that it's a disaster for
beginners. One that has proven successful for us is: "Simply Visual Basic
..NET 2003" by Deitel (Prentice Hall). http://vig.prenhall.com/catalog/acad...426400,00.html
Prior to that, we used a similar book from Course Technology by Zak. We
switched to .NET in January 2003.
Our students seem to have no more difficulty with VB.NET using a tutorial
approach than they did with VB 6 in the past. The students who do seem to
struggle are the adults with prior VB 6 experience. They have to unlearn as
well as learn.
--
Peter [MVP Visual Developer]
Jack of all trades, master of none.
"Tim Anderson" <ti*****@hotmail.com> schrieb: I'm not convinced that VB.NET is much different. Let's say you want to
teach the if statement. In VB6 you have to work through the IDE, so you
say, OK, start a new app with a form, put a button on the form,
double-click the button and now you can write some code that executes when
the button is clicked. Just write the code where the IDE tells you, and it
will run. There's no need to learn about event handlers for this simple
task. In VB.NET you can do exactly the same.
I tend to agree. But the chance to "make something wrong" as a beginner is
higher in VB.NET. Even when placing the code in a button's 'Click' event
handler, there are so many distracting things in the code, for example
'Handles...', the 'sender' and 'e' parameters of the handler, the designer
generated code, ... These are all things beginners are swamped with... ;-).
--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/dotnet/faqs/>
I was a VB3 hobbiest but did write some applications that were used in
industry such as graphical Directional Drilling (for oil) and a
restaurant/Payroll application for our restaurant. I skipped VB4,5,6 and
went straight to VB.Net. I, like you hated it at first as it was somewhat of
a steep learning curve. However, now after 6 months of playing around with
it, I love it. One reason it's so hard is that there are usually many ways
to do something. Just my thoughts.
"Peter van der Goes" wrote:
"john andrew" <jo********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:6D**********************************@microsof t.com...
--
hello
I used to teach VB6 at schools, adult colleges a few years ago. Having
seen a bit of VB.net I am a little shocked to say the least. The idea of
teaching VB.net to beginners is way harder than VB6 and VB6 was a challenge.
The whole look and feel is more difficult...OK for me but I would go broke
as a teacher if I had to teach VB.net. As the most popular programming
language around why has MS made something easy to do now more complicated
in the name of progress? This looks like a university research project being
let out too early. Trying to please everyone in other languages has made VB
less accessable to the public and with faster computers around I cant see how
this is better.
I tried finding help for a simple textbox on the help index and it was
absurdly difficult.
I am speaking from an education pont of view as I myself can pick this up.
You may want to look at one or several of the many textbooks available for
beginning Visual Basic .NET before you conclude that it's a disaster for
beginners. One that has proven successful for us is: "Simply Visual Basic
..NET 2003" by Deitel (Prentice Hall).
http://vig.prenhall.com/catalog/acad...426400,00.html
Prior to that, we used a similar book from Course Technology by Zak. We
switched to .NET in January 2003.
Our students seem to have no more difficulty with VB.NET using a tutorial
approach than they did with VB 6 in the past. The students who do seem to
struggle are the adults with prior VB 6 experience. They have to unlearn as
well as learn.
--
Peter [MVP Visual Developer]
Jack of all trades, master of none.
"Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hi***************@gmx.at> wrote in
news:O1**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl: I tend to agree. But the chance to "make something wrong" as a
beginner is higher in VB.NET. Even when placing the code in a
button's 'Click' event handler, there are so many distracting things
in the code, for example 'Handles...', the 'sender' and 'e' parameters
of the handler, the designer generated code, ... These are all things
beginners are swamped with... ;-).
The course can always start with command line applications : )
--
Lucas Tam (RE********@rogers.com)
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying. http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/
"Mark" <nospam> wrote in news:Os**************@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl: What I'd be doing in your shoes is thinking about offering advanced
vb.net and OO courses that your students to progress to once they have
completed the primary course.
Shouldn't they start with OO courses... the move up to VB.NET?
I think all too often too many community college students do not have a
strong foundation in OO programming... and just churn out sphagetti code.
--
Lucas Tam (RE********@rogers.com)
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying. http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/
"=?Utf-8?B?am9obiBhbmRyZXc=?=" <jo********@discussions.microsoft.com>
wrote in news:00**********************************@microsof t.com: I can handle VB.net personally because of my background. From a
business perspective VB.net is a hard sell and you can argue that
point. The problem with VB.net is that people want to do jobs...no one
cares about OO. C++ and Java are OO.....why arent they as popular as
VB.
Grasshopper... C/C++ is probably by far the most popular language out
there. Just about every major windows application is written in C++,
from games to windows to microsoft office.
I expect to see a streamlining of VB.net in future editions.The
university I went to ...which is very credible didnt like VB.net and
still teach vb6.
I bet the university is teaching concepts rather than the language.
However, I am a bit surprised your univeristy has not upgraded to an
object oriented language... like java of .net.
Also why is there busy VB6 msgboards....because
people like to do tasks not OO. Another school I was at today told me
they didnt like VB.net either.
It's not that people don't like OO - it's that people don't understand
OO.
OO has been around a while.
And VB6 isn't an OO language. Microsoft could have create OO-VB, but
instead Microsoft took the drastic route of creating .NET.
As for someone who used to teach VB6 and found students struggled
enough....VB.net is something I cant take seriously as a business
proposition and the online help is really Awful, I just want a basic
example of how to use some code not a library of OO theory .
Your thinking of wanting only examples is why soooooooo much code out
there is sphagetti. Sure it works, but it's a NIGHTMARE to maintain.
No way
could I feel confident in pointing a student to use it and understand
it.
Students need to learn programming paradigms first, then OO, then they
can programing in VB.NET. Without the basics... how can you expect
anyone to succeed?
I will get into it and do VB.net over time and I am sure I will enjoy
it. Sorry if I offended anyone as this is such a great resource with a
load of great replies.
--
Lucas Tam (RE********@rogers.com)
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying. http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/
=?Utf-8?B?RGVubmlz?= <De****@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in
news:EF**********************************@microsof t.com: I was a VB3 hobbiest but did write some applications that were used in
industry such as graphical Directional Drilling (for oil) and a
restaurant/Payroll application for our restaurant. I skipped VB4,5,6
and went straight to VB.Net. I, like you hated it at first as it was
somewhat of a steep learning curve. However, now after 6 months of
playing around with it, I love it. One reason it's so hard is that
there are usually many ways to do something. Just my thoughts.
And probably like the prior poster said... you have to unlearn everything
you learned. VB.NET is OO while VB6 is a procedural event-based language.
So the concepts in .NET can be quite dauting to one who is steeped in the
world of classic VB.
--
Lucas Tam (RE********@rogers.com)
Please delete "REMOVE" from the e-mail address when replying. http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/coolspot18/
"Dennis" <De****@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:EF**********************************@microsof t.com... I was a VB3 hobbiest but did write some applications that were used in
industry such as graphical Directional Drilling (for oil) and a
restaurant/Payroll application for our restaurant. I skipped VB4,5,6 and
went straight to VB.Net. I, like you hated it at first as it was somewhat
of a steep learning curve. However, now after 6 months of playing around
with it, I love it. One reason it's so hard is that there are usually many
ways to do something. Just my thoughts.
Just as a matter of clarification, I'm not the OP, nor do I "hate" VB or
anything .NET.
I view vb .NET as a big step forward for those interested in developing at
the professional level.
--
Peter [MVP Visual Developer]
Jack of all trades, master of none.
Also, you should check out VB 2005...it should be much more simpler, with a
lower learnign curve than the current vb.net
"Lucas Tam" <RE********@rogers.com> schrieb: What I'd be doing in your shoes is thinking about offering advanced
vb.net and OO courses that your students to progress to once they have
completed the primary course.
Shouldn't they start with OO courses... the move up to VB.NET?
ACK. But before dealing with OO, there are other (more basic) concepts to
learn... ;-).
--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/dotnet/faqs/> This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion. Similar topics
by: James White |
last post by:
I have a young nephew who appears to be developing into a natural
geek/nerd/guru/whatever and as he learns I need to make sure that he stays
on the side of the white hats, rather than going down...
|
by: PJ6 |
last post by:
OK, what kind of file(s) do I put this in to get it to work?
Oh, if it matters, I'm stuck with VS.NET 2002 at the moment.
Paul
<script runat="server">
Sub Page_Load...
|
by: MilkmanDan |
last post by:
I'll be a college freshman this fall, attending Florida Institute of
Tech studying electrical engineering.
I was considering taking some classes in programming and computer
science, and I...
|
by: kirby.urner |
last post by:
Cyber-curricula have a leveling aspect, as kids
nearer Katrina's epicenter tune in and bliss out
on 'Warriors of the Net' (why wait for stupid big
dummy textbooks to catch up?). They feel more...
|
by: ye2127 |
last post by:
Hi,
I have two fields in my report. One of them is school name(the school name appears multiple times). The other field is class test score. How would I go about calculating the test average for...
|
by: bogorman |
last post by:
Am trying to write some vbscript coding to send emails to records on our schools database. This is how far I've got. Am not an expert!! :
<%
Dim myConn, myCmd, myRS, firstRecord
dim strSQL2,...
|
by: taylorcarr |
last post by:
A Canon printer is a smart device known for being advanced, efficient, and reliable. It is designed for home, office, and hybrid workspace use and can also be used for a variety of purposes. However,...
|
by: Charles Arthur |
last post by:
How do i turn on java script on a villaon, callus and itel keypad mobile phone
|
by: aa123db |
last post by:
Variable and constants
Use var or let for variables and const fror constants.
Var foo ='bar';
Let foo ='bar';const baz ='bar';
Functions
function $name$ ($parameters$) {
}
...
|
by: ryjfgjl |
last post by:
If we have dozens or hundreds of excel to import into the database, if we use the excel import function provided by database editors such as navicat, it will be extremely tedious and time-consuming...
|
by: ryjfgjl |
last post by:
In our work, we often receive Excel tables with data in the same format. If we want to analyze these data, it can be difficult to analyze them because the data is spread across multiple Excel files...
|
by: BarryA |
last post by:
What are the essential steps and strategies outlined in the Data Structures and Algorithms (DSA) roadmap for aspiring data scientists? How can individuals effectively utilize this roadmap to progress...
|
by: Sonnysonu |
last post by:
This is the data of csv file
1 2 3
1 2 3
1 2 3
1 2 3
2 3
2 3
3
the lengths should be different i have to store the data by column-wise with in the specific length.
suppose the i have to...
|
by: Hystou |
last post by:
Most computers default to English, but sometimes we require a different language, especially when relocating. Forgot to request a specific language before your computer shipped? No problem! You can...
|
by: jinu1996 |
last post by:
In today's digital age, having a compelling online presence is paramount for businesses aiming to thrive in a competitive landscape. At the heart of this digital strategy lies an intricately woven...
| |
