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Self-Teaching of VB.net, can one become profficient?

I'm really new to vb.net programming and programming in general.

I would like to teach myself on how to program effectively and I have the
financial and time resources to do so.

Can I anyone recommend and point me in the right direction where I should
start?

--
Richard Aubin
Newbie.
Nov 21 '05 #1
24 2633
When I see a question like this, the first thing that comes to mind is what
you mean by 'Proficient', it is a subjective term to use as one mans idea of
proficient is another's view of a layman.

So, I would personally say, lets choose a level which is not arbitrary. To
attain an MSCD is a recognised level of proficiency in most people's eyes. I
would recommend that you buy MCAD/MCSD Microsoft .NET core requirements.
This is a self study guide from Microsoft themselves which covers all the
exams you need to get to MCSD.

In addition to this, you should try and help out on the newsgroups for say
at least a couple of questions per day; this will help you get to learn
things you can't from a book. It will also make you part of the community,
where you yourself can also receive help from the regular's or self
confessed newbie's like yourself.

HTH
--

OHM ( Terry Burns )
. . . One-Handed-Man . . .
If U Need My Email ,Ask Me

Time flies when you don't know what you're doing

"Richard Aubin" <Ri**********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************************@microsof t.com...
I'm really new to vb.net programming and programming in general.

I would like to teach myself on how to program effectively and I have the
financial and time resources to do so.

Can I anyone recommend and point me in the right direction where I should
start?

--
Richard Aubin
Newbie.

Nov 21 '05 #2
Oh yes, In addition, be prepared to need to spend a minimum of 20 hours a
week on study/excercise work, otherwise your unlikely to make it.

--

OHM ( Terry Burns )
. . . One-Handed-Man . . .
If U Need My Email ,Ask Me

Time flies when you don't know what you're doing

"Richard Aubin" <Ri**********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************************@microsof t.com...
I'm really new to vb.net programming and programming in general.

I would like to teach myself on how to program effectively and I have the
financial and time resources to do so.

Can I anyone recommend and point me in the right direction where I should
start?

--
Richard Aubin
Newbie.

Nov 21 '05 #3
Well hello Terry.

Thanks for the response.

MCAD/MCSD MS.NET Core Requirements... would you have a link for this? I'll
try to find it on my own in the meanwhile.

Richard.
"Self-Confessed Newbie"

"One Handed Man ( OHM - Terry Burns )" wrote:
When I see a question like this, the first thing that comes to mind is what
you mean by 'Proficient', it is a subjective term to use as one mans idea of
proficient is another's view of a layman.

So, I would personally say, lets choose a level which is not arbitrary. To
attain an MSCD is a recognised level of proficiency in most people's eyes. I
would recommend that you buy MCAD/MCSD Microsoft .NET core requirements.
This is a self study guide from Microsoft themselves which covers all the
exams you need to get to MCSD.

In addition to this, you should try and help out on the newsgroups for say
at least a couple of questions per day; this will help you get to learn
things you can't from a book. It will also make you part of the community,
where you yourself can also receive help from the regular's or self
confessed newbie's like yourself.

HTH
--

OHM ( Terry Burns )
. . . One-Handed-Man . . .
If U Need My Email ,Ask Me

Time flies when you don't know what you're doing

"Richard Aubin" <Ri**********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************************@microsof t.com...
I'm really new to vb.net programming and programming in general.

I would like to teach myself on how to program effectively and I have the
financial and time resources to do so.

Can I anyone recommend and point me in the right direction where I should
start?

--
Richard Aubin
Newbie.


Nov 21 '05 #4
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...23001?v=glance

--

OHM ( Terry Burns )
. . . One-Handed-Man . . .
If U Need My Email ,Ask Me

Time flies when you don't know what you're doing

"Richard Aubin" <Ri**********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:B0**********************************@microsof t.com...
Well hello Terry.

Thanks for the response.

MCAD/MCSD MS.NET Core Requirements... would you have a link for this? I'll try to find it on my own in the meanwhile.

Richard.
"Self-Confessed Newbie"

"One Handed Man ( OHM - Terry Burns )" wrote:
When I see a question like this, the first thing that comes to mind is what you mean by 'Proficient', it is a subjective term to use as one mans idea of proficient is another's view of a layman.

So, I would personally say, lets choose a level which is not arbitrary. To attain an MSCD is a recognised level of proficiency in most people's eyes. I would recommend that you buy MCAD/MCSD Microsoft .NET core requirements.
This is a self study guide from Microsoft themselves which covers all the exams you need to get to MCSD.

In addition to this, you should try and help out on the newsgroups for say at least a couple of questions per day; this will help you get to learn
things you can't from a book. It will also make you part of the community, where you yourself can also receive help from the regular's or self
confessed newbie's like yourself.

HTH
--

OHM ( Terry Burns )
. . . One-Handed-Man . . .
If U Need My Email ,Ask Me

Time flies when you don't know what you're doing

"Richard Aubin" <Ri**********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:11**********************************@microsof t.com...
I'm really new to vb.net programming and programming in general.

I would like to teach myself on how to program effectively and I have the financial and time resources to do so.

Can I anyone recommend and point me in the right direction where I should start?

--
Richard Aubin
Newbie.


Nov 21 '05 #5
On 2004-08-15, Richard Aubin <Ri**********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
I'm really new to vb.net programming and programming in general.

I would like to teach myself on how to program effectively and I have the
financial and time resources to do so.
One can become proficient through self-teaching, but whether you can
depends entirely on you. Have you ever taught yourself a serious field
before (say, a foreign language or field of math or something)? I tend
to find that some people are fine with self-teaching while others do
much better in a structured environment. One is no better than the
other, just different folks work different ways.
Can I anyone recommend and point me in the right direction where I should
start?


My tuppence...

Choose a beginning VB.Net book, pretty much any one will do, and go
through it typing in the code and understanding why the tutorials work
(do not download the code or take it from the CD-ROM, fixing your syntax
errors is an important part of the exercise). Get a second book and do
the same thing.

Next, choose a program that you wish to write and write it. A personal
web page with database access is usually a good choice, since that's
something most people can see a use for. One of the first apps I wrote
in .Net was a web-based job search database. Why? Because I was looking
for a job at the time, so the tool was useful for me. The choice of a
good first application depends entirely on you: what you want to study
and what you can see a need for.

At that point, you're "proficient". Becoming good is a much, much
harder task, but that's another task you can deal with later.

PS. I disagree with the person who suggested MCSD materials. IMHO,
they're not the right choice for a beginning programmer. Start with a
book that has the word "Beginner" or "Beginning" in the title.

PSS. If you don't know how to touch-type, start with that. Otherwise
step 1 above is going to kill you.

Nov 21 '05 #6
Hello David,

I'm a great typist, have been working with computers for over 20 years, Just
now deciding to get into programming.

I've actually already chosen the route you've suggested, and thanks to my
local book store, I can go in and skim through material before purchasing it.

I discovered after my second program from my 1st book that actually typing
it in was more instructful than downloading or loading it up from disk.

I will digest 2-3 books along this fashion then I will consider more formal
training. I don't think I will need MS certification for the projects I have
in mind.

Thanks David.

Richard.

"David" wrote:
On 2004-08-15, Richard Aubin <Ri**********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
I'm really new to vb.net programming and programming in general.

I would like to teach myself on how to program effectively and I have the
financial and time resources to do so.


One can become proficient through self-teaching, but whether you can
depends entirely on you. Have you ever taught yourself a serious field
before (say, a foreign language or field of math or something)? I tend
to find that some people are fine with self-teaching while others do
much better in a structured environment. One is no better than the
other, just different folks work different ways.
Can I anyone recommend and point me in the right direction where I should
start?


My tuppence...

Choose a beginning VB.Net book, pretty much any one will do, and go
through it typing in the code and understanding why the tutorials work
(do not download the code or take it from the CD-ROM, fixing your syntax
errors is an important part of the exercise). Get a second book and do
the same thing.

Next, choose a program that you wish to write and write it. A personal
web page with database access is usually a good choice, since that's
something most people can see a use for. One of the first apps I wrote
in .Net was a web-based job search database. Why? Because I was looking
for a job at the time, so the tool was useful for me. The choice of a
good first application depends entirely on you: what you want to study
and what you can see a need for.

At that point, you're "proficient". Becoming good is a much, much
harder task, but that's another task you can deal with later.

PS. I disagree with the person who suggested MCSD materials. IMHO,
they're not the right choice for a beginning programmer. Start with a
book that has the word "Beginner" or "Beginning" in the title.

PSS. If you don't know how to touch-type, start with that. Otherwise
step 1 above is going to kill you.

Nov 21 '05 #7
* "=?Utf-8?B?UmljaGFyZCBBdWJpbg==?=" <Ri**********@discussions.microsoft.com> scripsit:
I'm really new to vb.net programming and programming in general.

I would like to teach myself on how to program effectively and I have the
financial and time resources to do so.


From my FAQ:

If you want to take a quick look at Visual Basic, I currently would
install the Express beta and play around with it:

<URL:http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/vbasic/>

Alternatively, you can order the trial version of VS.NET:

<URL:http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/productinfo/trial/>

General information about VB can be found here:

<URL:http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/>

For beginners' tasks, VB at the Movies may be helpful:

<URL:http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/atthemovies/>

The Visual Basic .NET Resource Kit contains a test version of VS.NET,
some free components and a lot of training material:

<URL:http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/vbrkit/>

Quickstarts on various topics of the .NET Framework can be found here:

<URL:http://samples.gotdotnet.com/quickstart/>

For VB6 programmers, there are separate documents about the switch to
VB.NET:

VB.NET for VB Veterans
<URL:http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/vbcon/html/vboriintroductiontovisualbasic70forvisualbasicvete rans.asp>

--
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
<URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
Nov 21 '05 #8
Hello Kerfried,

I've already purchased VB.NET Standard 2003.

I've purchased Sams Teach Yourself VB.net 2003 in 21 days and have learned
alot already.

I'm getting quite comfortable with the "basic" concept and am eager to get
into the next level.

Does anyone have any comments in regards to:
http://www.appdev.com/ and the teaching materials they offer?
"Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" wrote:
* "=?Utf-8?B?UmljaGFyZCBBdWJpbg==?=" <Ri**********@discussions.microsoft.com> scripsit:
I'm really new to vb.net programming and programming in general.

I would like to teach myself on how to program effectively and I have the
financial and time resources to do so.


From my FAQ:

If you want to take a quick look at Visual Basic, I currently would
install the Express beta and play around with it:

<URL:http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/vbasic/>

Alternatively, you can order the trial version of VS.NET:

<URL:http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/productinfo/trial/>

General information about VB can be found here:

<URL:http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/>

For beginners' tasks, VB at the Movies may be helpful:

<URL:http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/atthemovies/>

The Visual Basic .NET Resource Kit contains a test version of VS.NET,
some free components and a lot of training material:

<URL:http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/vbrkit/>

Quickstarts on various topics of the .NET Framework can be found here:

<URL:http://samples.gotdotnet.com/quickstart/>

For VB6 programmers, there are separate documents about the switch to
VB.NET:

VB.NET for VB Veterans
<URL:http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/vbcon/html/vboriintroductiontovisualbasic70forvisualbasicvete rans.asp>

--
Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]
<URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>

Nov 21 '05 #9
Hi Richard,

Good luck! You've chosen a very challenging and rewarding
vocation/avocation.

Here are a few ideas:
1. get a few good books on the basics - balena (MS Press) is a good place
to start. Also, a book on ado .net (Sceppa's or Vaughn's).
2. write short programs that do something - and then test them and try to
break them (input numbers where they shouldn't be, press 'ok' before it is,
etc).

One of the earlier suggestions was great - review the questions and answers
on this and other newsgroups - I've learned a lot, as I suspect others have,
from simply reviewing these posts.

To be a good programmer you need 3 things: a brain, hard work,
self-confidence. I'm sure you can do it.

HTH,

Bernie Yaeger

"Richard Aubin" <Ri**********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************************@microsof t.com...
I'm really new to vb.net programming and programming in general.

I would like to teach myself on how to program effectively and I have the
financial and time resources to do so.

Can I anyone recommend and point me in the right direction where I should
start?

--
Richard Aubin
Newbie.

Nov 21 '05 #10
Hello Bernie,

Thanks for your post! Luckily the good lord blessed me with all three!
(Brain, self-confidence and I thrive on hard work)

Programming is the only thing in my life that I find mentally stimulating,
therefor I believe I will be great at it!

Thanks again guys & gals!

"Bernie Yaeger" wrote:
Hi Richard,

Good luck! You've chosen a very challenging and rewarding
vocation/avocation.

Here are a few ideas:
1. get a few good books on the basics - balena (MS Press) is a good place
to start. Also, a book on ado .net (Sceppa's or Vaughn's).
2. write short programs that do something - and then test them and try to
break them (input numbers where they shouldn't be, press 'ok' before it is,
etc).

One of the earlier suggestions was great - review the questions and answers
on this and other newsgroups - I've learned a lot, as I suspect others have,
from simply reviewing these posts.

To be a good programmer you need 3 things: a brain, hard work,
self-confidence. I'm sure you can do it.

HTH,

Bernie Yaeger

"Richard Aubin" <Ri**********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************************@microsof t.com...
I'm really new to vb.net programming and programming in general.

I would like to teach myself on how to program effectively and I have the
financial and time resources to do so.

Can I anyone recommend and point me in the right direction where I should
start?

--
Richard Aubin
Newbie.


Nov 21 '05 #11
Richard,

In addition to all answers that are given.

Start from the first moment to think how you do things in a structured way.
(With that not saying have a look at "structured programming")

Keep in mind that most programming samples are to learn you how to use the
instructions and not how to make a nice structured program.

There is not "one" template for that because for the last it is very much
dependable what kind of project you are working on.

Try to get first good in your brain things as what is a:
class?
object?
value?
structure?

Moreover, try to find out what is the idea behind OOP. (I believe there is
no good "one" overall covering description from that).

(In few words in my idea, creating in small parts divided reusable classes
that make it possible to speed up developing time in an effective way)

Just my thought,

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #12
I would have to advise against the MCSD track (at least for now).

The study path towards MCSD is not necessarially focused on understanding
the topic in question. Many people believe an MCSD certification means that
you know how to pass the MS tests, but don't necessarially have a good
"grasp" on the material.

If you are looking to beef up your resume, go for the MCSD. If you would
like to learn and understand .NET from the ground up, it is certainly
possible to be self-taught, but you must be prepared to do some serious
reading and spend lots of time "playing" with code.

I suggest:

Programming Microsoft ASP.NET
by Dino Esposito
ISBN: 0735619034

....and...

Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Version 2003
by Francesco Balena
ISBN: 0735620598

as 2 excellent texts to get you started.

"Richard Aubin" <Ri**********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:B0**********************************@microsof t.com...
Well hello Terry.

Thanks for the response.

MCAD/MCSD MS.NET Core Requirements... would you have a link for this?
I'll
try to find it on my own in the meanwhile.

Richard.
"Self-Confessed Newbie"

"One Handed Man ( OHM - Terry Burns )" wrote:
When I see a question like this, the first thing that comes to mind is
what
you mean by 'Proficient', it is a subjective term to use as one mans idea
of
proficient is another's view of a layman.

So, I would personally say, lets choose a level which is not arbitrary.
To
attain an MSCD is a recognised level of proficiency in most people's
eyes. I
would recommend that you buy MCAD/MCSD Microsoft .NET core requirements.
This is a self study guide from Microsoft themselves which covers all the
exams you need to get to MCSD.

In addition to this, you should try and help out on the newsgroups for
say
at least a couple of questions per day; this will help you get to learn
things you can't from a book. It will also make you part of the
community,
where you yourself can also receive help from the regular's or self
confessed newbie's like yourself.

HTH
--

OHM ( Terry Burns )
. . . One-Handed-Man . . .
If U Need My Email ,Ask Me

Time flies when you don't know what you're doing

"Richard Aubin" <Ri**********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************************@microsof t.com...
> I'm really new to vb.net programming and programming in general.
>
> I would like to teach myself on how to program effectively and I have
> the
> financial and time resources to do so.
>
> Can I anyone recommend and point me in the right direction where I
> should
> start?
>
> --
> Richard Aubin
> Newbie.


Nov 21 '05 #13
Hi:

From one newbie to another.. welcome to the club! I am finding some things
very straight forward and other things lacking what I deem to be common
sense functionality or capability. I too am looking for resources for the
newbie. So far the only thing I have been able to find is code samples and
using trial and error and lots of hair pulling. *grin*

--
Take it light....

Malakie
Ma*****@Hotmail.com
"Richard Aubin" <Ri**********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************************@microsof t.com...
I'm really new to vb.net programming and programming in general.

I would like to teach myself on how to program effectively and I have the
financial and time resources to do so.

Can I anyone recommend and point me in the right direction where I should
start?

--
Richard Aubin
Newbie.

Nov 21 '05 #14
Hi Cor:

You brought up a good point which is also the approach I have been trying...
Try to get first good in your brain things as what is a:
class?
object?
value?
structure?
One of the problems for newbie's is getting an 'english' description and
definition of coding phrases - which is near impossible. In the military
our training did not consist of one methodology for learning, rather any
subject could be taught and learned in many different ways and they could be
inter-changed so that a student could understand what was being taught in a
manner best suited for them using a conglomeration of all the different
learning methods, styles and courses.. (Something I think civvies colleges
should do more of).

In other words, training is designed around the WAY a student learns and not
just one style for all. Where I might be able to learn by theory
description on one subject, someone else may need visual representation.
Subjects I never thought I could understand, I was able to learn because I
change the 'way' and 'method' I learned it from a selection of offerings in
the training.

Thus, I have the same problem with programming and coding. I can learn some
from books, some from typing in code, some from verbal explanation, and some
from example code. But I am having some problems trying to understand 'how'
or 'why' some things work the way they do because there is no clear
explanation that I can understand.

I guess the whole point of my post is this: Someone who knows programming
and is an expert should put together a programming 'lesson' or 'course' that
walks a newbie from step one to end product.... and does it in straight
english (with techno words tied to it so you can learn terminology at the
same time) with lots of examples, diagrams (like when explaining what an
array is or how it actually works, or a structure, or a class etc etc etc)
and information. First teach us what programming is and the terminology
then teach us how to use those things to create code.

I see lots of books and examples trying to teach us how to code. But none
that really teach us what programming is and the terminology and definitions
and descriptions of arrays, classes, structures, variables, etc etc etc etc.

If anyone does know of such a thing, please pass it on because I have yet to
understand much of the way things work, why they are used and under what
circumstances they should be used.

--
Take it light....

Malakie
Ma*****@Hotmail.com
"Cor Ligthert" <no**********@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:eP**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl... Richard,

In addition to all answers that are given.

Start from the first moment to think how you do things in a structured
way.
(With that not saying have a look at "structured programming")

Keep in mind that most programming samples are to learn you how to use the
instructions and not how to make a nice structured program.

There is not "one" template for that because for the last it is very much
dependable what kind of project you are working on.

Try to get first good in your brain things as what is a:
class?
object?
value?
structure?

Moreover, try to find out what is the idea behind OOP. (I believe there
is
no good "one" overall covering description from that).

(In few words in my idea, creating in small parts divided reusable classes
that make it possible to speed up developing time in an effective way)

Just my thought,

Cor

Nov 21 '05 #15
Malakie,

We agree completly however your answer does not cover my answer.

Studying only the meaning of the 4 keywords I gave, gives a very direct way
to learn how to make a good structure in a VBNet program.

To give some of my thought on the question you open with your message.

Really good programmers are in my idea mostly bad writers, while good
writers are mostly bad programmers.

Therefore you get a book from someone who describes things in not the best
way (a programmer want often to make everything clear) or a book from
someone who describes only the basic things because that is his knowledge
(or that he knows that a newbie cannot understand everything in one time)

Programming words are often created one time by a programmer and have gotten
there own meaning, however there is no reason that they are consistent in
all programming languages, the same as there is no reason that written words
should be consistent in all natural languages.

However just my thoughts about it

Cor
Hi Cor:

You brought up a good point which is also the approach I have been trying...
Try to get first good in your brain things as what is a:
class?
object?
value?
structure?
One of the problems for newbie's is getting an 'english' description and
definition of coding phrases - which is near impossible. In the military
our training did not consist of one methodology for learning, rather any
subject could be taught and learned in many different ways and they could

be inter-changed so that a student could understand what was being taught in a manner best suited for them using a conglomeration of all the different
learning methods, styles and courses.. (Something I think civvies colleges should do more of).

In other words, training is designed around the WAY a student learns and not just one style for all. Where I might be able to learn by theory
description on one subject, someone else may need visual representation.
Subjects I never thought I could understand, I was able to learn because I
change the 'way' and 'method' I learned it from a selection of offerings in the training.

Thus, I have the same problem with programming and coding. I can learn some from books, some from typing in code, some from verbal explanation, and some from example code. But I am having some problems trying to understand 'how' or 'why' some things work the way they do because there is no clear
explanation that I can understand.

I guess the whole point of my post is this: Someone who knows programming
and is an expert should put together a programming 'lesson' or 'course' that walks a newbie from step one to end product.... and does it in straight
english (with techno words tied to it so you can learn terminology at the
same time) with lots of examples, diagrams (like when explaining what an
array is or how it actually works, or a structure, or a class etc etc etc)
and information. First teach us what programming is and the terminology
then teach us how to use those things to create code.

I see lots of books and examples trying to teach us how to code. But none
that really teach us what programming is and the terminology and definitions and descriptions of arrays, classes, structures, variables, etc etc etc etc.
If anyone does know of such a thing, please pass it on because I have yet to understand much of the way things work, why they are used and under what
circumstances they should be used.

--
Take it light....

Malakie
Ma*****@Hotmail.com
"Cor Ligthert" <no**********@planet.nl> wrote in message
news:eP**************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
Richard,

In addition to all answers that are given.

Start from the first moment to think how you do things in a structured
way.
(With that not saying have a look at "structured programming")

Keep in mind that most programming samples are to learn you how to use the instructions and not how to make a nice structured program.

There is not "one" template for that because for the last it is very much dependable what kind of project you are working on.

Try to get first good in your brain things as what is a:
class?
object?
value?
structure?

Moreover, try to find out what is the idea behind OOP. (I believe there
is
no good "one" overall covering description from that).

(In few words in my idea, creating in small parts divided reusable classes that make it possible to speed up developing time in an effective way)

Just my thought,

Cor


Nov 21 '05 #16
On 2004-08-17, Cor Ligthert <no**********@planet.nl> wrote:
Malakie,

To give some of my thought on the question you open with your message.

Really good programmers are in my idea mostly bad writers, while good
writers are mostly bad programmers.


I'd disagree entirely with that statement.

Now, obviously there's no way for us to settle this disagreement (have
every programmer in the world submit an essay?), but more to the point,
it's a very misleading statement when applied to technical books.

In my experience with programming books (and I've read an awful lot of
them), if the code is bad, the writing is generally horrible as well.
And if the writing is confusing, it more often than not means that the
writer didn't really understand the subject matter.

Now, a lot of admittedly this has to do with the publisher. If the
publisher cares enough to hire competent programmers to write books,
they generally also care enough to hire competent editors to go over the
writing. And they're willing to allow both to take the time needed to
do a good job. That's why the bookshelves of good programmers tends to
be dominated by a few good publishers.

Nov 21 '05 #17
> > To give some of my thought on the question you open with your message.

Really good programmers are in my idea mostly bad writers, while good
writers are mostly bad programmers.


I'd disagree entirely with that statement.


David you are free to do that, however it is my thought, am I free to have
that as well?

:-)

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #18
I made two messages because the are different.

To give some of my thought on the question you open with your message.

Really good programmers are in my idea mostly bad writers, while good
writers are mostly bad programmers.
I'd disagree entirely with that statement.

Now, a lot of admittedly this has to do with the publisher. If the
publisher cares enough to hire competent programmers to write books,
they generally also care enough to hire competent editors to go over the
writing. And they're willing to allow both to take the time needed to
do a good job. That's why the bookshelves of good programmers tends to
be dominated by a few good publishers.


Than the editior needs to understand the meaning of the programmer, in my
opinion this only agrees with my statement as well in the sentence in the
original message from me.
Therefore you get a book from someone who describes things in not the best
way (a programmer want often to make everything clear) or a book from
someone who describes only the basic things because that is his knowledge
(or that he knows that a newbie cannot understand everything in one time)


And of course did I not write that there are no good books, however it will
almost never fits complete to the need of a certain person.

(And keep in mind I wrote "mostly").

Again just my thought.

:-)

Cor

Nov 21 '05 #19
I disagree, I did it and found it invaluable.

--

OHM ( Terry Burns )
. . . One-Handed-Man . . .
If U Need My Email ,Ask Me

Time flies when you don't know what you're doing

"Scott M." <s-***@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:uF**************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
I would have to advise against the MCSD track (at least for now).

The study path towards MCSD is not necessarially focused on understanding
the topic in question. Many people believe an MCSD certification means that you know how to pass the MS tests, but don't necessarially have a good
"grasp" on the material.

If you are looking to beef up your resume, go for the MCSD. If you would
like to learn and understand .NET from the ground up, it is certainly
possible to be self-taught, but you must be prepared to do some serious
reading and spend lots of time "playing" with code.

I suggest:

Programming Microsoft ASP.NET
by Dino Esposito
ISBN: 0735619034

...and...

Programming Microsoft Visual Basic .NET Version 2003
by Francesco Balena
ISBN: 0735620598

as 2 excellent texts to get you started.

"Richard Aubin" <Ri**********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:B0**********************************@microsof t.com...
Well hello Terry.

Thanks for the response.

MCAD/MCSD MS.NET Core Requirements... would you have a link for this?
I'll
try to find it on my own in the meanwhile.

Richard.
"Self-Confessed Newbie"

"One Handed Man ( OHM - Terry Burns )" wrote:
When I see a question like this, the first thing that comes to mind is
what
you mean by 'Proficient', it is a subjective term to use as one mans idea of
proficient is another's view of a layman.

So, I would personally say, lets choose a level which is not arbitrary.
To
attain an MSCD is a recognised level of proficiency in most people's
eyes. I
would recommend that you buy MCAD/MCSD Microsoft .NET core requirements. This is a self study guide from Microsoft themselves which covers all the exams you need to get to MCSD.

In addition to this, you should try and help out on the newsgroups for
say
at least a couple of questions per day; this will help you get to learn
things you can't from a book. It will also make you part of the
community,
where you yourself can also receive help from the regular's or self
confessed newbie's like yourself.

HTH
--

OHM ( Terry Burns )
. . . One-Handed-Man . . .
If U Need My Email ,Ask Me

Time flies when you don't know what you're doing

"Richard Aubin" <Ri**********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:11**********************************@microsof t.com...
> I'm really new to vb.net programming and programming in general.
>
> I would like to teach myself on how to program effectively and I have
> the
> financial and time resources to do so.
>
> Can I anyone recommend and point me in the right direction where I
> should
> start?
>
> --
> Richard Aubin
> Newbie.


Nov 21 '05 #20
On 2004-08-17, Cor Ligthert <no**********@planet.nl> wrote:
I made two messages because the are different.
>
> To give some of my thought on the question you open with your message.
>
> Really good programmers are in my idea mostly bad writers, while good
> writers are mostly bad programmers.


I'd disagree entirely with that statement.

Now, a lot of admittedly this has to do with the publisher. If the
publisher cares enough to hire competent programmers to write books,
they generally also care enough to hire competent editors to go over the
writing. And they're willing to allow both to take the time needed to
do a good job. That's why the bookshelves of good programmers tends to
be dominated by a few good publishers.


Than the editior needs to understand the meaning of the programmer, in my
opinion this only agrees with my statement as well in the sentence in the
original message from me.


Well, you snipped the argument (without acknowledging it) and responded
to the caveat.

Apart from the abstract topic, my useful on-topic point is this. In my
experience, if the code is bad, the book is bad. Bad programmers seldom
write good programming books. And when I think of the best programming
books I've read, they've all come from programmers I'd hire in a second
if I had the opportunity.

BTW, the attributions are broken below. That's fine, I realize lots of
newsreaders aren't very good in this regard, but it makes it difficult
to respond.
Nov 21 '05 #21
On 2004-08-17, Cor Ligthert <no**********@planet.nl> wrote:
> To give some of my thought on the question you open with your message.
>
> Really good programmers are in my idea mostly bad writers, while good
> writers are mostly bad programmers.


I'd disagree entirely with that statement.


David you are free to do that, however it is my thought, am I free to have
that as well?


I must admit, I've never understood this point at all when people make
it on various forums. Does my disagreeing with you somehow threaten
your free speech rights? Does the fact that I bothered to back up my
opinion with an actual argument supporting it somehow increase the
oppression you're feeling?

Really, it eludes me.

Nov 21 '05 #22
David you are free to do that, however it is my thought, am I free to have that as well?


I must admit, I've never understood this point at all when people make
it on various forums. Does my disagreeing with you somehow threaten
your free speech rights? Does the fact that I bothered to back up my
opinion with an actual argument supporting it somehow increase the
oppression you're feeling?

Really, it eludes me.

With that sentence I did want to say that we have maybe different idea's
about the fact and a discussion would probably come to nothing however give
me the right to have my own ideas as I give you the right to have yours.

(In my opinion while reading our both later messages our ideas are not that
wide apart)

:-)

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #23
David,
Apart from the abstract topic, my useful on-topic point is this. In my
experience, if the code is bad, the book is bad. Bad programmers seldom
write good programming books. And when I think of the best programming
books I've read, they've all come from programmers I'd hire in a second
if I had the opportunity.

I agree with you partialy in this fact however, comming back to the message
from Malakie. Books from good writers can be very good as well. Probably not
for you, however for newbies it is mostly a better way to go.

And with that I am comming back on my topic that the best learning books do
not exist.

(All in my opinion of course)

:-)

Cor

Nov 21 '05 #24
I've read all the replies at the time of this posting and there is no
'right' answer. Everyone learns in their own way at their own pace. My
suggestion is to try more than one way, one at a time, and keep going with
it until it's taken you as far as it can.

As far as recomending books, it's a crap shoot. I've had people recomend
books to me that they said were "clear and concise" or "in plain english"
only to open it up and look like I'm reading Greek. On the other hand I've
had people tell me that a certain book "Sucks", only to open it up and find
it clear as day and to the point. I guess it's got something to do whith
the whole right brain vs. left brain discussion.

Also, don't think that just learning VB .Net makes you a programmer. Most
programs interact with some kind of datastore like a database or text files.
In the case of databases there is a whole nother world to learn. Stored
Procedures and Triggers and Data Normalization and SQL Queries and Data
Integrity and so on.... There is a lot more to programming than just writing
the program. It can be done, however.

As one of my teachers once told me, "to become a programmer, become a
sponge"

Since you have the ability to thumb through the books in the bookstore, read
through a few pages of several different "Beginning..." or "Mastering..." or
"...Step by Step" kind of books. Pick the two that you understand or feel
explains it best. Work through one of the books. As the book brings up new
topics or keywords, read through that passage and stop for a second. Digest
what you just read then, look up the subject in the second book's index or
table of context and read what it says. You can also do a search in the
MSDN on the subject. Make sure you understand everything you just read and
all the code in whatever examples are presented before you continue. When
the books say not to worry about a certain aspect of an example because it
will be explained later, make a note of it and check it off when it has
been explained and you understand it. Having more than one point of view or
reference can make learning it easier. It is time consuming; but, in the
long run you will be better off for it.

Good luck...and remember, there is a wealth of information on the internet
and these newsgroups. I learned and have written several programs using
assembly language for Win32 wholly from information I found on the internet.

Hope this helps,
Dennis

"Richard Aubin" <Ri**********@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************************@microsof t.com...
I'm really new to vb.net programming and programming in general.

I would like to teach myself on how to program effectively and I have the
financial and time resources to do so.

Can I anyone recommend and point me in the right direction where I should
start?

--
Richard Aubin
Newbie.

Nov 21 '05 #25

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