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.Net Copyright

Howdy,

I'm no legal beagal but from what i understand if you want to own the rights
to an idea you need a patent. If you cant get a patent then your next best
option is a copyright. However anyone can get around copyright simply by
ensuring their functionality albeit the same, is produced in a slightly
different way.

Does this mean that simply rewriting C# code in VB is enough to bypass
copyright?

Thanks
Richard
Nov 20 '05 #1
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16 Replies
On Fri, 7 May 2004 12:23:20 +1200, spamfurnace wrote:
Howdy,

I'm no legal beagal but from what i understand if you want to own the rights
to an idea you need a patent. If you cant get a patent then your next best
option is a copyright. However anyone can get around copyright simply by
ensuring their functionality albeit the same, is produced in a slightly
different way.

Does this mean that simply rewriting C# code in VB is enough to bypass
copyright?

Thanks
Richard


Nope - that would be a "derivative work", meaning your VB was based on
the C#, and legally belonged to the original author.
--
auric "underscore" "underscore" "at" hotmail "dot" com
*****
I tried snorting coke once. I almost drowned.
Nov 20 '05 #2
I don't know the legal answer to your question, but one language to another is a translation, not an alteration. 'Gone with the Wind' in spanish is still 'Gone with the Wind'

franco, mis queridos, yo no dan una maldición
Nov 20 '05 #3
Hi,

I'm not sure what you're after, but, generally, a piece of work - say a
software program that totals invoices for a given month for one of your
customers - can be copyrighted in the Library of Congress. Yes, the program
is unique - no one else wrote that code but you, but the owner of the
copyright may well be your client, if he/she commissioned you to develop
that software.

There's a text on this written by MJ Salone - How to copyright software. It
was written in 1990 but is still current with respect to the law on
copyright issues and software.

HTH,

Bernie Yaeger

"spamfurnace" <sp*********@intermension.com> wrote in message
news:eg*************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
Howdy,

I'm no legal beagal but from what i understand if you want to own the rights to an idea you need a patent. If you cant get a patent then your next best
option is a copyright. However anyone can get around copyright simply by
ensuring their functionality albeit the same, is produced in a slightly
different way.

Does this mean that simply rewriting C# code in VB is enough to bypass
copyright?

Thanks
Richard

Nov 20 '05 #4

"Auric__" <no*********@email.address> wrote in message
news:v1********************************@4ax.com...
On Fri, 7 May 2004 12:23:20 +1200, spamfurnace wrote:
Howdy,

I'm no legal beagal but from what i understand if you want to own the rightsto an idea you need a patent. If you cant get a patent then your next bestoption is a copyright. However anyone can get around copyright simply by
ensuring their functionality albeit the same, is produced in a slightly
different way.

Does this mean that simply rewriting C# code in VB is enough to bypass
copyright?

Thanks
Richard


Nope - that would be a "derivative work", meaning your VB was based on
the C#, and legally belonged to the original author.


A "deritive work" is something like "Die Hard II", or "Huckelberry Finn".
It's a stretch to use it for software, and you shoudn't rely on it. In
general you can steal the ideas and functionality of a piece of software and
and avoid copyright infringement by rewriting it. You must really rewrite
it, though. You can't just use some automated tool to munge it around, and
you can't just copy it out line by line.

And you mustn't violate the copyright to figure out how it works (ie no
decompiling). If you have leagal access to the source code, however, and
put in a little work, copyright won't keep you from producing a work-alike
piece of software.

David
Nov 20 '05 #5
Liz

"spamfurnace" <sp*********@intermension.com> wrote in message
news:eg*************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
Howdy,

I'm no legal beagal but from what i understand if you want to own the rights to an idea you need a patent.
ideas are not legally protectable.

If you cant get a patent then your next best option is a copyright. However anyone can get around copyright simply by
ensuring their functionality albeit the same, is produced in a slightly
different way.

Does this mean that simply rewriting C# code in VB is enough to bypass
copyright?

Thanks
Richard

Nov 20 '05 #6

"Liz" <li*@tiredofspam.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

"spamfurnace" <sp*********@intermension.com> wrote in message
news:eg*************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
Howdy,

I'm no legal beagal but from what i understand if you want to own the

rights
to an idea you need a patent.


ideas are not legally protectable.


Ideas can be protected by either patent or trade secret. Just not
copyright.
A patent might protect something like a chemical formula, a mechanical
design, or a process for making something. These are ideas. But patents
are only available for new and non-obvious ideas.

David
Nov 20 '05 #7
Liz

"David Browne" <davidbaxterbrowne no potted me**@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:eN**************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...

"Liz" <li*@tiredofspam.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...

"spamfurnace" <sp*********@intermension.com> wrote in message
news:eg*************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
Howdy,

I'm no legal beagal but from what i understand if you want to own the rights
to an idea you need a patent.


ideas are not legally protectable.


Ideas can be protected by either patent or trade secret. Just not
copyright. A patent might protect something like a chemical formula, a mechanical
design, or a process for making something. These are ideas. But patents
are only available for new and non-obvious ideas.

David


Sorry, David, but ideas are NOT protectable and never have been; copyright
protects original works of authorship fixed in a tangible medium; patents
protect new, non-obvious and useful inventions which have been reduced to
practice. Trade secrets law provides a shield against **misappropriation**
of confidential information ... which is not the same as "protecting an
idea" ... you have a cause of action against me if you can show that I stole
your confidential information and you had taken reasonable steps to protect
it, but not if you can only show that we have the same idea ...


Nov 20 '05 #8
Excellent answers. Thanks.

I've just been reading Accidental Empires by Robert X Cringley. He was
talking about how Compaq reverse engineered the IBM BIOS back in the daze to
kick off the clone wars. Its a very cool tale but it got me thinking, just
by the way Cringley laid it up, about how easy would it be to circumvent
copyright with a framework/language family like .Net.

It wasn't meant as a definitive "law" text or anything so i dont want to
take anything away from the author but i got the impression that as long as
what you see aint what you write the copyrights no problem. I guess he must
have meant more in terms of semantics thatn syntax.

Ive never really seen much discussion about it so i assume somewhere it was
decided that its not a problem..... but i still like to Dumbo my way through
questions so I can know at least some of the answers too.

Thanks for all your thoughts and anymore that come along.

Richard

"spamfurnace" <sp*********@intermension.com> wrote in message
news:eg*************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
Howdy,

I'm no legal beagal but from what i understand if you want to own the rights to an idea you need a patent. If you cant get a patent then your next best
option is a copyright. However anyone can get around copyright simply by
ensuring their functionality albeit the same, is produced in a slightly
different way.

Does this mean that simply rewriting C# code in VB is enough to bypass
copyright?

Thanks
Richard

Nov 20 '05 #9
On Fri, 7 May 2004 19:49:41 +1200, spamfurnace wrote:
Excellent answers. Thanks.

I've just been reading Accidental Empires by Robert X Cringley. He was
talking about how Compaq reverse engineered the IBM BIOS back in the daze to
kick off the clone wars. Its a very cool tale but it got me thinking, just
by the way Cringley laid it up, about how easy would it be to circumvent
copyright with a framework/language family like .Net.


That's the one where there were two teams, right? One that documented,
one that coded? I always heard that as having been done by Phoenix, not
Compaq.
--
auric "underscore" "underscore" "at" hotmail "dot" com
*****
Bigamy: one wife too many.
Monogamy: same idea.
Nov 20 '05 #10

"David Browne" <davidbaxterbrowne no potted me**@hotmail.com> wrote
ideas are not legally protectable.


Ideas can be protected by either patent or trade secret. Just not
copyright.


Liz is correct, ideas are not patentable.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/35/101.html
"Whoever invents or discovers any new and useful process, machine, manufacture,
or composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof, may obtain
a patent therefor, ..."

You have to write it down (describe it in detail), or build it, or otherwise put it in
tangible form to qualify as one of the above.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac...x.html#whatpat
"A patent cannot be obtained upon a mere idea or suggestion. The patent is granted
upon the new machine, manufacture, etc., as has been said, and not upon the idea
or suggestion of the new machine. A complete description of the actual machine or
other subject matter for which a patent is sought is required."
LFS

Nov 20 '05 #11
That's the one where there were two teams, right? One that documented,
one that coded? I always heard that as having been done by Phoenix, not
Compaq.
--
Im no expert but according to Cringely, Compaq was the first to do it. Cost
them a cool million and required a bunch of virgin programmers. Then once
they had done it and eveyone saw what a cash cow clones were, companies like
Phonenix stepped in an started mass producing IBM compatible BIOS chips for
all the other clone makers.... 'cause not everyone wanted to spend 7 months
and another cool million to get their own BIOS.

That effectively made BIOS a commodity item which let everyman and his
brother into the game... and Viola' [*I read Code magazine*] here we are
today.

Its an excellent read. Throughly recommend it. Lots of info and his writing
style makes it possible to devour it in a day and half. It follows Bill
Gates and his master business skills, how he made the jump from BASIC and
pure language development into OS and onto applications...... using one
market to strengthen his share in the other blah blah blah. Very cool. It
stops at around 1996 but thats fine because thats about when i started
getting into computers so i can fill in the gaps from there. Its interesting
though these VM machines etc didn't just start with java, they go way back
to the early daze. way way back.
Bigamy: one wife too many.
Monogamy: same idea.


Hahh Haa.
[Of course i would never have the guts to laugh at this one if she actually
were standing beside me]
but shes not so ..... hahh haa.

Richard
Nov 20 '05 #12
Here's a couple of links to copyright stuff. You can read it for yourself.
http://dennisys.com/humanities/pubs.htm

History is rampant with stolen invention (in the generic). There is a
positive correlation between the quantity and quality of the invention, and
the sophistication required to either defend it or steal it. Often the
question becomes, "What can you afford to defend?"

When people first began writing (computer) code, it became apparent to me
that there were very few best ways to write it, most probably only a single
best way to write a statement issued to a given processor. All other forms
of the statement are less effective, and possibly even detrimental to the
project. So obviously those statements are copyrighted. How does one write
code that is not copyrighted? I think if you write code at all, at some
point you have violated someone's copyright. The more complex the project
the more likely it is that that is true. The question then becomes at what
point are they (the copyright holders) willing to prosecute you. A cost
ratio gets involved that describes the risk and possible gain to the holders
when taking the issue to court.

It might seem like a minor problem to most people, but as you grow (wise and
wealthy) as a coder or even a visionary, you can expect a similar growth of
attention given you, and a good portion of that is outside of the domain of
your best interests. The mechanics of that attention is considered an
investment, and is a routine part of business operations that study the
competition.

"spamfurnace" <sp*********@intermension.com> wrote in message
news:eg*************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
Howdy,

I'm no legal beagal but from what i understand if you want to own the rights to an idea you need a patent. If you cant get a patent then your next best
option is a copyright. However anyone can get around copyright simply by
ensuring their functionality albeit the same, is produced in a slightly
different way.

Does this mean that simply rewriting C# code in VB is enough to bypass
copyright?

Thanks
Richard

Nov 20 '05 #13
1. I suppose that everybody is speaking about USA?

2. Any links to the WW countries? (WW = World Wide)

3. I heard about international law on the international trade. Is it
valid in every country?

4. Some companies have their own licencing rules, are those rules valid
in every country? (Specifically Thomsom ans Microsoft amidst others, I
fond a few issues to disagree with the general principles of the law in
my country)

David Browne wrote:
"Liz" <li*@tiredofspam.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
"spamfurnace" <sp*********@intermension.com> wrote in message
news:eg*************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
Howdy,

I'm no legal beagal but from what i understand if you want to own the


rights
to an idea you need a patent.


ideas are not legally protectable.

Ideas can be protected by either patent or trade secret. Just not
copyright.
A patent might protect something like a chemical formula, a mechanical
design, or a process for making something. These are ideas. But patents
are only available for new and non-obvious ideas.

David


Nov 20 '05 #14
Im from New Zealand, but we're such a small market I'm a little more
interested in the US of A/EU.
I would ask about China, what with its 1 Billion inhabitants, but I dont
think they have copyright/intellectual property rights do they?

I think they just have the 1 party system.
"You make it. We take it."

;)

Richard

"Mark P" <No@Spam.Net> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
1. I suppose that everybody is speaking about USA?

2. Any links to the WW countries? (WW = World Wide)

3. I heard about international law on the international trade. Is it
valid in every country?

4. Some companies have their own licencing rules, are those rules valid
in every country? (Specifically Thomsom ans Microsoft amidst others, I
fond a few issues to disagree with the general principles of the law in
my country)

David Browne wrote:
"Liz" <li*@tiredofspam.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
"spamfurnace" <sp*********@intermension.com> wrote in message
news:eg*************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...

Howdy,

I'm no legal beagal but from what i understand if you want to own the

rights

to an idea you need a patent.

ideas are not legally protectable.

Ideas can be protected by either patent or trade secret. Just not
copyright.
A patent might protect something like a chemical formula, a mechanical
design, or a process for making something. These are ideas. But patents are only available for new and non-obvious ideas.

David

Nov 20 '05 #15
Liz

"spamfurnace" <sp*********@intermension.com> wrote in message
news:#M**************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Im from New Zealand, but we're such a small market I'm a little more
interested in the US of A/EU. I would ask about China, what with its 1 Billion inhabitants, but I dont
think they have copyright/intellectual property rights do they?


yes, they do in fact; there are still a lot of problems in China with IP
but they are making a real effort on it; the savvy players know how to work
with the situation and understand that infringement suits are not the only
way to protect your interests and make a dollar


Nov 20 '05 #16
On Sat, 8 May 2004 09:31:44 +1200, spamfurnace wrote:
Bigamy: one wife too many.
Monogamy: same idea.


Hahh Haa.
[Of course i would never have the guts to laugh at this one if she actually
were standing beside me]
but shes not so ..... hahh haa.


I've never been married and currently have no desire to do so. That was
a randomly-selected quote from my quotefile but it does apply to me.
--
auric "underscore" "underscore" "at" hotmail "dot" com
*****
Enemies strengthen you. Allies weaken.
-- Frank Herbert
Nov 20 '05 #17

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