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Microsoft! whether we can upload the projects (in .zip file) ?

P: n/a
Whether we can upload the projects (in .zip format) in these newsgroups? I
am asking this because earlier there are more than 50 posts (in one thread)
about this query and they are contradicting with each other (You can find
that post by name date10/22/2003 Time 7:22PM)

I want to get the answer from Microsoft. Therefore, please answer this query
only if you are from Microsoft.

Thanks in advance!


Nov 20 '05 #1
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170 Replies


P: n/a
are you talking about the chris woodriff post about api problems?

i'm confused b/c no one responded to it and it is the only post i see for
that date/time. the fix, i imagine, i to pass the structure byval instead of
byref.

anyway, if you want to post a project...or anything else...(which is not a
very netiquette thing to do), just zip it and attach it to your post, then
send your post as usual. post snippets of pertainent code w/n the post...we
don't need to see a whole project. as far as your reason for wanting to
"upload" your project, contradiction will always abound as long as there's
more than one way to skin a cat.

steve
"I_AM_DON_AND_YOU?" <us**@domain.com> wrote in message
news:Or*************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Whether we can upload the projects (in .zip format) in these newsgroups? I
am asking this because earlier there are more than 50 posts (in one thread) about this query and they are contradicting with each other (You can find
that post by name date10/22/2003 Time 7:22PM)

I want to get the answer from Microsoft. Therefore, please answer this query only if you are from Microsoft.

Thanks in advance!

Nov 20 '05 #2

P: n/a
Steve:

I am talking about the same date & time I wrote. It is Post from me i.e
"I_AM_DON_AND_YOU?" with subject "But in Context Menu - again (project
Attached)". Actually there is a typo-error because "But.." should be "Bug".

....
"steve" <as*@abc.com> wrote in message
news:vp************@corp.supernews.com...
are you talking about the chris woodriff post about api problems?

i'm confused b/c no one responded to it and it is the only post i see for
that date/time. the fix, i imagine, i to pass the structure byval instead of byref.

anyway, if you want to post a project...or anything else...(which is not a
very netiquette thing to do), just zip it and attach it to your post, then
send your post as usual. post snippets of pertainent code w/n the post...we don't need to see a whole project. as far as your reason for wanting to
"upload" your project, contradiction will always abound as long as there's
more than one way to skin a cat.

steve
"I_AM_DON_AND_YOU?" <us**@domain.com> wrote in message
news:Or*************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Whether we can upload the projects (in .zip format) in these newsgroups? I am asking this because earlier there are more than 50 posts (in one

thread)
about this query and they are contradicting with each other (You can find that post by name date10/22/2003 Time 7:22PM)

I want to get the answer from Microsoft. Therefore, please answer this

query
only if you are from Microsoft.

Thanks in advance!


Nov 20 '05 #3

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"Upload the projects"

What projects? Upload?
Why don't you use a regular mail/newsgroup client like anybody else?

Ok, I'm testing... to post a message with Outlook Express 6 attaching a
small zip.

If you can't see it, then news server must be blocking it somehow...
probably an anti-virus protection.

Regards,
Mário

"I_AM_DON_AND_YOU?" <us**@domain.com> wrote in message
news:Or*************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Whether we can upload the projects (in .zip format) in these newsgroups? I
am asking this because earlier there are more than 50 posts (in one thread) about this query and they are contradicting with each other (You can find
that post by name date10/22/2003 Time 7:22PM)

I want to get the answer from Microsoft. Therefore, please answer this query only if you are from Microsoft.

Thanks in advance!



Nov 20 '05 #4

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Mario!

I am playing Mario since 8 years. What a game!!!

Yes I can read your attachment. Actually I was asking this because day
before yesterday I asked some query regarding my code and some "experts"
were saying they couldn't tell without seeing the project. So then I
uploaded the project. Then other group of "experts" are asking as to why I
uploaded that. In the fight between one group of "experts" with other group
of "experts" the real issue remained out of context.


"Mario" <mz******@DONTWANTSPAMmail.pt> wrote in message
news:%2****************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
"Upload the projects"

What projects? Upload?
Why don't you use a regular mail/newsgroup client like anybody else?

Ok, I'm testing... to post a message with Outlook Express 6 attaching a
small zip.

If you can't see it, then news server must be blocking it somehow...
probably an anti-virus protection.

Regards,
Mário

"I_AM_DON_AND_YOU?" <us**@domain.com> wrote in message
news:Or*************@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Whether we can upload the projects (in .zip format) in these newsgroups? I am asking this because earlier there are more than 50 posts (in one

thread)
about this query and they are contradicting with each other (You can find that post by name date10/22/2003 Time 7:22PM)

I want to get the answer from Microsoft. Therefore, please answer this

query
only if you are from Microsoft.

Thanks in advance!


Nov 20 '05 #5

P: n/a
* "I_AM_DON_AND_YOU?" <us**@domain.com> scripsit:
Whether we can upload the projects (in .zip format) in these newsgroups? I
am asking this because earlier there are more than 50 posts (in one thread)
about this query and they are contradicting with each other (You can find
that post by name date10/22/2003 Time 7:22PM)

I want to get the answer from Microsoft. Therefore, please answer this query
only if you are from Microsoft.


I am not from microsoft, but consider subscribing to some public
webspace:

<http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/learn2/HowItWorks4_Free.html>
<http://www.tripod.lycos.com/>
<http://www.fortunecity.com/free.shtml>
....

--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Nov 20 '05 #6

P: n/a
* "Mario" <mz******@DONTWANTSPAMmail.pt> scripsit:
What projects? Upload?
Why don't you use a regular mail/newsgroup client like anybody else?

Ok, I'm testing... to post a message with Outlook Express 6 attaching a
small zip.

If you can't see it, then news server must be blocking it somehow...
probably an anti-virus protection.


Some newsservers block attachments, so some visitors won't see them.
Some newsreaders block attachments, so some visitors won't see them.
Some virus scanners block attachments, so some visitors won't see them.
Some web interfaces block attachments, so some visitors won't see them.

=> Don't make use of the attachment features in newsgroups.

Block attachments too.

--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Nov 20 '05 #7

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lol.

;^)

"Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hi***************@gmx.at> wrote in message
news:bn*************@ID-208219.news.uni-berlin.de...
* "I_AM_DON_AND_YOU?" <us**@domain.com> scripsit:
Whether we can upload the projects (in .zip format) in these newsgroups? I am asking this because earlier there are more than 50 posts (in one thread) about this query and they are contradicting with each other (You can find that post by name date10/22/2003 Time 7:22PM)

I want to get the answer from Microsoft. Therefore, please answer this query only if you are from Microsoft.


I am not from microsoft, but consider subscribing to some public
webspace:

<http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/learn2/HowItWorks4_Free.html>
<http://www.tripod.lycos.com/>
<http://www.fortunecity.com/free.shtml>
...

--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>

Nov 20 '05 #8

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Hi Mario,

Why did you do it???

ROFL. Because it told me not to and I just <had to know>!!

Regards,
Fergus
Nov 20 '05 #9

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Hi Don,

Lol. - No, I'm not Microsoft either!!

But this is:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/newsgroups...wsgroups/manag
ed/NodePages/tips.asp

And here are the words from the horses mouth.
Adding Attachments
To add an attachment, either type in the location of the file on your computer
in the Attach File field or click the Browse... button to locate the file.
Only one file can be attached per message. Please restrict your attachments to
file sizes of 1 MB or less.

I hope nobody ever posts 1MB!!

Regards,
Fergus


Nov 20 '05 #10

P: n/a
Herfried:

Someone has found a web-link from Microsoft Website and it clearly says that
it is ok to have attachment (less than 1MB size) at Microsoft Newsgroups.

Take a look:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/newsgroups...Pages/tips.asp
Nov 20 '05 #11

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Cor
Herfried:

Someone has found a web-link from Microsoft Website and it clearly says that
it is ok to have attachment (less than 1MB size) at Microsoft Newsgroups.

Take a look:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/newsgroups...Pages/tips.asp

Cor

PS, Sorry Don,

Now you did it yourself
Nov 20 '05 #12

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Cor
Hi Fergus,

Maybe it is good to contribute that link to all Microsoft German newsgroups,
it seems the are using the wrong netetiqete (that is not a rule of course).

What do you think about that idea, we cannot leave those people with the
wrong style from posting.

:-))

Cor

Nov 20 '05 #13

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* "Fergus Cooney" <fi*****@post.com> scripsit:
Lol. - No, I'm not Microsoft either!!

But this is:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/newsgroups...wsgroups/manag
ed/NodePages/tips.asp


Did you hate it when the servers didn't work some weeks ago? This was
caused by the attachments added to the worm posts. If attachments would
be forbidden in general, there would be fewer problems.

--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Nov 20 '05 #14

P: n/a
* "Cor" <no*@non.com> scripsit:
Someone has found a web-link from Microsoft Website and it clearly says that
it is ok to have attachment (less than 1MB size) at Microsoft Newsgroups.

Take a look:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/newsgroups...Pages/tips.asp


I already know the link, but it doesn't make sense because it will
prevent a large amount of users to use the newsgroups. In the German
newsgroups you will find an updated version that says that attachments
should not be used. I will ask Microsoft to include that in the general
netikette too.

--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Nov 20 '05 #15

P: n/a
* "Cor" <no*@non.com> scripsit:
Maybe it is good to contribute that link to all Microsoft German newsgroups,
it seems the are using the wrong netetiqete (that is not a rule of course).

What do you think about that idea, we cannot leave those people with the
wrong style from posting.


I will include 1 MB attachments in my future posts to Fergus and you.

--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Nov 20 '05 #16

P: n/a
Cor
Herfried,

I have fun with this, I was looking for a German site where this was on, but
could not find it, than I had added that as a link.

:-)

But seriously, I think FTP is too no option and a Website too not. Not
everybody has that direct to his posibilities. By instance in larger
companies it is for the developers almost unreachable because of security
issues.

What is wisdom, I would that I had the answer.

Cor
Nov 20 '05 #17

P: n/a
Hi Cor,

* "Cor" <no*@non.com> scripsit:
I have fun with this, I was looking for a German site where this was on, but
could not find it, than I had added that as a link.
<http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;DE;NGNetikette>

You can use Google to translate it.
But seriously, I think FTP is too no option and a Website too not. Not
everybody has that direct to his posibilities. By instance in larger
companies it is for the developers almost unreachable because of security
issues.


You forgot to mention email.

--
Herfried K. Wagner
MVP · VB Classic, VB.NET
<http://www.mvps.org/dotnet>
Nov 20 '05 #18

P: n/a
Cor
Hi Herfried,
<http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=fh;DE;NGNetikette>

You can use Google to translate it.
Sei OT. Questo è un newsgroup dedicato al solo vb.net. Puoi provare a
chiedere su microsoft.public.it.vb. You can use Google to translate it
You forgot to mention email.
That is absolutly against all newsgroup community rules.
Every individual can choose for it, but it can never be a rule in a
newsgroup community.

For English readers, beneatj is a part of the netetiquete from the German
Microsoft Site.
I keep it untranslated because otherwise we can start making a thread about
simple words. Who wants to translate it, use www.babelfish.org please.

Anhänge sind in den Microsoft-Newsgroups generell unerwünscht. Sie
verlängern für die User lediglich die Downloadzeit auch wenn sie sie gar
nicht lesen möchten. Auch die Virengefahr ist bei Attachments nicht zu
unterschätzen. Die meisten User, besonders die Stammuser, übergehen solche
Postings. Verweisen Sie lieber in Ihrem Posting mit Links auf entsprechende
Downloadmöglichkeiten bzw. auf die Quelle Ihrer Informationen im Web.

In this text is nothing that Fergus(I think) or I(for sure) do not agree
with

But there is nowhere written "Verboten"

Cor


Nov 20 '05 #19

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From de.newusers.infos: (like the 'bible' of the usenet)

MsgId: de-newusers-infos/netiquette/20********@krell.zikzak.de

My translation of #16:

16. Attention with binaries and multipart messages!

Binary files (graphics, music, executables etc.) are unwelcome in the
discussion groups of this network. For binary files, there are specialized
groups. In general it is better to do without binary files in the usenet,
but instead to point to download possibilities via FTP or WWW.

The same applies to so called "multipart" messages. [...] In the "de.*"
hierarchy it is common practice to use plain text only.


--
Armin

Nov 20 '05 #20

P: n/a
Cor
Hi Armin,

Binary files (graphics, music, executables etc.) are unwelcome in the
discussion groups of this network. For binary files, there are specialized
groups. In general it is better to do without binary files in the usenet,
but instead to point to download possibilities via FTP or WWW.


I totally can agree with above.

But program code which we are talking about are text file, not binaires.

Cor
Nov 20 '05 #21

P: n/a
Cor
>
Did you hate it when the servers didn't work some weeks ago? This was
caused by the attachments added to the worm posts. If attachments would
be forbidden in general, there would be fewer problems.


This is finding a reason, mostly used by people when they starts to see he
cannot win with normal arguments.

Cor
Nov 20 '05 #22

P: n/a
Hi Herfried,

Don't forget to keep that commanding tone in your voice. I'm sure
Microsoft will jump to it as much as everyone else who you order around.

In the meantime, I'll ask them politely to replace that <outdated>
netiquette in the German newsgroup with the correct English version.

Regards,
Fergus
Nov 20 '05 #23

P: n/a
Hi herfried,

You can post as many 1MB attachments as you like. That would be fine. I
would exercise my option not to download them. You might make some other
people upset, though.

Just don't do 1MB of in-line text. That would piss a million people off!

Regards,
Fergus
Nov 20 '05 #24

P: n/a
Hi Herfreid,

Having read the German netiquette, I must ask you to reconsider sending
1MB attachments.

The German rules clearly state

Do not hang plants from your postings.
However, if you would like to have InterFlora deliver them to my door,
that would be great! Some Tulips would be cheerful, but that's more Cor's
line - you can send me some Edelweiss ;-)

Regards,
Fergus
Nov 20 '05 #25

P: n/a
let me stick up for herfried with whom i am in total agreement!
This is finding a reason, mostly used by people when they starts to see he
cannot win with normal arguments.


in this context, this is the most inane comment someone could make!
netiquette is founded on "reasons"...else, it's a free-for-all! there's a
very good "reason" why it is impolite to cross-post, demean participants,
post off-topic comments, double post comments, etc. they are there for the
health, growth, and protection of those who want to participate in the
group.
Did you hate it when the servers didn't work some weeks ago? This was
caused by the attachments added to the worm posts. If attachments would
be forbidden in general, there would be fewer problems.


this statement is an example of why it is pragmatically logical *not* to
allow, or to discourage, posting messages w/ attachments. the second
pragmatic reason is that very few people will be willing to open an entire
project to debug someone's crappy code. posting it by default is an
assumptive and resource consuming activity...often self-defeating. snippets
of code are much better. if someone really want's to debug a faulty
application for someone else, then the op can *email* it to them w/o
bothering anyone in the ng and w/o burdening the hosting ng. server. if the
goal of posting solutions w/n the group is for the benefit of all, then
posting attached projects is even counter productive to that end as
well...an entire application is too much information scattered about...you'd
have to say: "i did this here, tweeked this there, finally genuflect over
here...and now it works".

if i'm a little more than miffed at the comments you've been making, i'm
sure herfried has a right to be even moreso...since the brunt of your
comments have been directly aimed at him.

herfried, here's to your patience...you haven't seemed to loose your top
yet. ;^)

fft cor,

steve
Nov 20 '05 #26

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Hi Cor,

|| Sei OT. Questo è un newsgroup dedicato al solo vb.net. Puoi
|| provare a chiedere su microsoft.public.it.vb.

ROFL.

With regard to the rule about hanging plants, I would probably agree with
the first sentence and would wish to add extra words to all the others. This
might make them less clear cut but, in my mind, they would become more
accurate.

Such a writing style would not be appropriate for that page though - it is
short and sharp and necessarily sacrifices accuracy in order to gain
understandability.

There are also a <lot> of rules. <<A lot>>. What was it you were saying
about the Germans not having more rules, Herfried?

Regards,
Fergus
Nov 20 '05 #27

P: n/a
Cor
>
However, if you would like to have InterFlora deliver them to my door,
that would be great! Some Tulips would be cheerful, but that's more Cor's
line - you can send me some Edelweiss ;-)

ROFL really
Nov 20 '05 #28

P: n/a
Cor
Hi Steve,

We totaly agree with each other.

And I never offend Herfried, Nick onces said that I love him.

But I don't like it when new arguments come in, which has nothing to do with
the case.

A good programmer will make the right solution to prevent those problems.

:-))

Cor
Nov 20 '05 #29

P: n/a
Hi Armin,

Thanks for the link but unfortunately it's an invitation to post rather
than a web page to read! Do you have a web link?

Regards,
Fergus
Nov 20 '05 #30

P: n/a
Cor
Hi Fergus,
There are also a <lot> of rules. <<A lot>>. What was it you were saying about the Germans not having more rules, Herfried?


Although Herfried is no German, I was talking about the German
culture(Prusian culture more), Herfried has probably right, it has not to do
with the amount of rules but with the amount of handling according those
rules.

I would not use my country or Brittain as example, but did you ever been in
Italy on the road. It is greath everybody is driving very fast (but
carefully), and the rules are for the rules.

Cor
Nov 20 '05 #31

P: n/a
i hear that oj simpson loved nicole too. ;^)

new or old, the comment he made is directly supportive of why not to allow,
or to discourage, posting attachments w/n a news group like this one. that
is the case, right? whether posting attachments is a helpful or hindering
endeavor?
A good programmer will make the right solution to prevent those problems.


i guess this refers to an op who posts an attachment b/c his app won't work?
the right solution is the one that works best. and it has been my experience
that as you add *perfect* programmers to an expanding codebase, the more
bugs you encounter...and they will be resolved in the exact manner i've
described...a fix here, a tweek there, and so on. adding more
*less-than-perfect* programmers to expandings codebases just make it harder
to find the actual problem.

i'd say either way, whether you are perfect or imperfect as a programmer,
i'd be very reluctant to spend my time applying "raid ant and roach killer"
to someone elses mess...different story if they were to pay for my
assistance. but again, posting attached projects for help in a ng. is
self-defeating, un-productive, and wastes resources. it's just not helpful
to anyone.

i don't see the point here.
Nov 20 '05 #32

P: n/a

"steve" <as*@abc.com> wrote in message
news:vp***********@corp.supernews.com...
i hear that oj simpson loved nicole too. ;^)

new or old, the comment he made is directly supportive of why not to allow, or to discourage, posting attachments w/n a news group like this one. that
is the case, right? whether posting attachments is a helpful or hindering
endeavor?
A good programmer will make the right solution to prevent those
problems.
i guess this refers to an op who posts an attachment b/c his app won't work? the right solution is the one that works best. and it has been my experience that as you add *perfect* programmers to an expanding codebase, the more
bugs you encounter...and they will be resolved in the exact manner i've
described...a fix here, a tweek there, and so on. adding more
*less-than-perfect* programmers to expandings codebases just make it harder to find the actual problem.

i'd say either way, whether you are perfect or imperfect as a programmer,
i'd be very reluctant to spend my time applying "raid ant and roach killer" to someone elses mess...different story if they were to pay for my
assistance. but again, posting attached projects for help in a ng. is
self-defeating, un-productive, and wastes resources. it's just not helpful
to anyone.

i don't see the point here.

Nov 20 '05 #33

P: n/a
Hi Herfried,

That's making a point using an extreme case and it invites immediate
ridicule. You can't score with an argument like that.

Why? Because I agree that attachments at that level would be disruptive.
Of course I do. The evidence, as you remind us, is just a couple of weeks
behind us.

But your point is <totally invalid> in this discussion because that was a
virus which was <intended> to disrupt.

We aren't talking about people posting 150KB attachments several times an
hour/day. We are talking about the <occasional> poster who attaches a zipped
solution containing a project. It's not even an everyday occurence!!

In the case of the last attachment, mine, it was only 7K!

Having just read Cor's response. Yes. You are getting desperate. So too
with your 'surrealism' in other discussion about quoting. My Vater used to do
that when he saw no other way out without having to admit that his opponent
(me) had a good point. It was both our loss because we never got to finish a
discussion. An opportunity to find common ground was lost.

Learn to do this Herfried. Learn to accept your opponent's point when you
see that there is something valid in it. By all means restate it with a
qualification or two. But accept it.

Why should you do this ?

Well, for one thing, despite being a backing down, it commands respect.
Especially if you get a reputation for being able to back down gracefully
(when appropriate, of course). Someone who can say they were wrong tends to be
more often right when they <do> stick to their guns (or at least seen that
way). They show that they won't waste anybody's time by being stubborn when
they are clearly in a weak position. And that's mature and admirable.

Another reason is that any point that you have to 'get silly' with is
still a big fuzz in your mind. It has the attachment of all the emotions
associated with being wrong and being aware of it and not wanting to show it,
etc. There's nothing better for destroying logical thought than emotion.
(Emotion works very consistently and logically <in its own way> but this is
not a logic that works in discussion.)

When you concede a point you can clear most of this rubbish away. And,
having cleared it from your mind, you are then free to concentrate on real
weaknesses in other points under discussion.

Of course, when <all> your points are wrong, it takes a very big man
indeed to back down all the way. But it's a rare discussion where there isn't
some agreement to be found amongst all the disagreement.

Regards,
Fergus
Nov 20 '05 #34

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"Fergus Cooney" <fi*****@post.com> schrieb
Hi Armin,

Thanks for the link but unfortunately it's an invitation to post rather than a web page to read! Do you have a web link?


It's a message id. Either click this link

news:de-newusers-infos/netiquette/20********@krell.zikzak.de

or search for the msgid. Result:

http://groups.google.com/groups?ie=U...k.de&lr=&hl=de

But it's DE. ;-)
--
Armin

Nov 20 '05 #35

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"Cor" <no*@non.com> schrieb
Hi Armin,

Binary files (graphics, music, executables etc.) are unwelcome in
the discussion groups of this network. For binary files, there are
specialized groups. In general it is better to do without binary
files in the usenet, but instead to point to download possibilities
via FTP or WWW.


I totally can agree with above.

But program code which we are talking about are text file, not
binaires.


Zips are binaries and attachments are multipart messages.

;-)
--
Armin

Nov 20 '05 #36

P: n/a
hi fergus,

i guess in all our disagreement, we agree that abusive attachment posting -
beit through frequency, file size, or contamination - is not a good thing.
that's probably why the netiquette never says "verboten" but leans toward a
guideline rather than a rule...and does actually allow it. i do think
herfried has a valid point about wormed attachments and don't see it as
"fuzzy" logic. i guess perspectives are environmentally differing depending
on whether one has had ones' own "polluted" before. ;^) given that, i think
you've clinically described a common social dynamic...i make that
observation completely devoid of emotion mind you. ;^)

cheers,

steve
"Fergus Cooney" <fi*****@post.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Hi Herfried,

That's making a point using an extreme case and it invites immediate
ridicule. You can't score with an argument like that.

Why? Because I agree that attachments at that level would be disruptive. Of course I do. The evidence, as you remind us, is just a couple of weeks
behind us.

But your point is <totally invalid> in this discussion because that was a virus which was <intended> to disrupt.

We aren't talking about people posting 150KB attachments several times an hour/day. We are talking about the <occasional> poster who attaches a zipped solution containing a project. It's not even an everyday occurence!!

In the case of the last attachment, mine, it was only 7K!

Having just read Cor's response. Yes. You are getting desperate. So too with your 'surrealism' in other discussion about quoting. My Vater used to do that when he saw no other way out without having to admit that his opponent (me) had a good point. It was both our loss because we never got to finish a discussion. An opportunity to find common ground was lost.

Learn to do this Herfried. Learn to accept your opponent's point when you see that there is something valid in it. By all means restate it with a
qualification or two. But accept it.

Why should you do this ?

Well, for one thing, despite being a backing down, it commands respect. Especially if you get a reputation for being able to back down gracefully
(when appropriate, of course). Someone who can say they were wrong tends to be more often right when they <do> stick to their guns (or at least seen that
way). They show that they won't waste anybody's time by being stubborn when they are clearly in a weak position. And that's mature and admirable.

Another reason is that any point that you have to 'get silly' with is
still a big fuzz in your mind. It has the attachment of all the emotions
associated with being wrong and being aware of it and not wanting to show it, etc. There's nothing better for destroying logical thought than emotion.
(Emotion works very consistently and logically <in its own way> but this is not a logic that works in discussion.)

When you concede a point you can clear most of this rubbish away. And,
having cleared it from your mind, you are then free to concentrate on real
weaknesses in other points under discussion.

Of course, when <all> your points are wrong, it takes a very big man
indeed to back down all the way. But it's a rare discussion where there isn't some agreement to be found amongst all the disagreement.

Regards,
Fergus

Nov 20 '05 #37

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Cor
Steve
i hear that oj simpson loved nicole too. ;^)

Will you repeat that for court?

Cor
Nov 20 '05 #38

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Clay or grass?
"Cor" <no*@non.com> wrote in message
news:%2******************@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
Steve
i hear that oj simpson loved nicole too. ;^)

Will you repeat that for court?

Cor

Nov 20 '05 #39

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Hi Cor,

I too meant Germanic.

I would love to ride in Italy - a large and v. fast motorbike ;-))))

Regards,
Fergus
Nov 20 '05 #40

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Hi Jesse,

Did you say something there? I couldn't work it out.

Regards,
Fergus
Nov 20 '05 #41

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ditto...lol.

"Fergus Cooney" <fi*****@post.com> wrote in message
news:ev*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Hi Jesse,

Did you say something there? I couldn't work it out.

Regards,
Fergus

Nov 20 '05 #42

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if you take your finger out of your nose you will be able to see what i
said.


"steve" <as*@abc.com> wrote in message
news:vp************@corp.supernews.com...
ditto...lol.

"Fergus Cooney" <fi*****@post.com> wrote in message
news:ev*************@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
Hi Jesse,

Did you say something there? I couldn't work it out.

Regards,
Fergus


Nov 20 '05 #43

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Cor
> Clay or grass?

LOL
Nov 20 '05 #44

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Hi Steve,

|| i do think herfried has a valid point about wormed attachments

He does. Worms are bad business.

|| i do think herfried has a valid point about wormed attachments

In this context, however, Herfried's point is logically invalid.

There are a couple of reasons that I can see:

1) It isn't analogous to this situation. Worm postings are an attack
and a major one. Posting attachments in order to get a problem solved is far
from an attack. The closest you could say on that front is that posting a huge
zip when a smaller one would suffice is an attack of thoughtlessness.

2) It isn't in a reasonable position on the scale:- No-one posting
attachments. One person posting an occasional zip - ok..Several people posting
a zip - Hmm, do we need that?; Many people - Please, it's not necessary;
Everyone - Now just stop right there!!

We are talking about the lowest region on that scale. It wouldn't happen
that we'd reach the higher levels. There simply isn't the need. The vast
majority post a simple query. Sometimes snippets and sometimes long snippets.
Occasionally it's useful to have these longer snippets packaged in a zip. We
will never get to the stage of everyone posting a zip of their project as a
matter of course.

Worm attack postings are at the top end of that scale in terms of
frequency, but they are in a region that will not be visited naturally. So
Herfried's point is 'out-of-bounds' for this discussion but, of course, valid
in its own right.
|| and don't see it as "fuzzy" logic

I use the word 'fuzzy' not in the 'fuzzy logic' sense but in the sense
that someone who uses extreme points such as that is often speaking from an
emotional place rather than a logical one. This may not be the case here, of
course, it is only a perception. But it is one that Cor and I both saw
independantly. And it's consistent with how Herfried's argumentative style has
developed over the last few days. He is, like the rest of us in this brawl,
very tired, and this adds its own fuzziness.

|| i guess perspectives are environmentally differing depending
|| on whether one has had ones' own "polluted" before. ;^)

I wish I understood this...

|| given that, i think you've clinically described a common social
|| dynamic...i make that observation completely devoid of emotion
|| mind you. ;^)

because it makes me uncertain of this.

But with two ;^)s, I think it's an atute observation, a compliment .. and
an irony. ;-)

Cheers,
Fergus
Nov 20 '05 #45

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>
But with two ;^)s, I think it's an atute observation, a compliment .. and an irony. ;-)

Cheers,
Fergus


I get atute out of you.
Nov 20 '05 #46

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ROFL
Nov 20 '05 #47

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Hi Steve,

|| but again, posting attached projects for help in a ng. is ...

|| self-defeating,

I've taken several zipped projects, worked on them and confirmed a bug or
found a solution. This certainly didn't defeat the purposes of the guy with
the problem!! ;-)
|| un-productive,

It produced a conclusion or resolution almost every time.
|| and wastes resources.

It didn't waste <my time>. As the person actually doing the helping in the
thread where this arises, I feel a small justification in claiming the right
to save some time. ;-)

One possibility is that the code is posted in-line. Then it comes complete
with word-wrapped comments and code, loss of indentation, the addition of
double spacing. And this is a major hassle for me trying to reproduce a
project. A couple of projects have involved graphics. What choice there -
base64?- it's longer than the binary!

Another pair of possibilities is ftp and www. This has been discussed
elsewhere as being impractical for a number of reasons.

Email is a possibility. As discussed with Armin - I have asked every time
that the poster consider emailing. Every time they have posted to the group.
This is human nature - try and change it!
|| it's just not helpful to anyone.

It helps me to help the person with the query. He and me are the two most
important people in that thread.
As I've said before, and as Armin and Herfried have both confirmed, (at
least in their own situations), there is no obligation to download an
attachment

Regards,
Fergus

[Anyone doesn't like references to 'he' and not she? - no 'she's so far.]
Nov 20 '05 #48

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Hey Road Kill,

How come you block your vision when you pick your nose? Sounds wierd to
me. is your face upside down??

It's no good feeding the birds by scattering seed in a sand pit. - it's
better to put it where the birds can see it.

[And other phrases filled with indignation...] ;-)

Hhrmmph,
Fergus
Nov 20 '05 #49

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Well i have had no difficulty seeing...I think it was you who had trouble
seeing...I guess the answer though depends on where you have your nose
stuck.
"Fergus Cooney" <fi*****@post.com> wrote in message
news:%2****************@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Hey Road Kill,

How come you block your vision when you pick your nose? Sounds wierd to me. is your face upside down??

It's no good feeding the birds by scattering seed in a sand pit. - it's better to put it where the birds can see it.

[And other phrases filled with indignation...] ;-)

Hhrmmph,
Fergus

Nov 20 '05 #50

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