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Beating a dead Horse: Which Language

Hi,

I know that I'm an extreme newb by asking this overly beaten question,
but I am leaning toward C#, becuase the perception is that it is better
to learn than VB.Net. I guess it makes you cooler.:-)

Anyhow, I am a novice programmer, and I will remain one as well...I have
no plans to make programming my life ambition, but I think that it would
be fun to make my databases do some cool tricks and maybe write a
simplistic client to access the database over the LAN, and by internet
as well. My programing will be centered around Data manipulation, i.e.
collecting, sorting, and reporting on this data to myself.....

I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish my
mission. It may be that it doesn't have anything at all to do with the
language, from my understanding they are close to equal, but everyone I
come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net
Please, NO FLAMES; just logic
Thank you in advance!
Nov 21 '05
114 3736
On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 20:58:10 +0100, Jon Skeet [C# MVP]
<sk***@pobox.co m> wrote:
Wilbur Slice <pa@papapapa.co m> wrote:
In C# it does sometimes create the correct indentation for you, but
it's easy to type things in in such a way that it doesn't indent
properly, and it's easy to override the indentation scheme. If you go
back to some code that's already in the program and un-indent it, it
will stay that way.


Yes, thankfully. Sometimes (for whatever reason) I don't want to use
the normal formatting.

If you *accidentally* unindent though, just taking out a closing brace
and reinserting it will reformat the block though.
In VB, it is pretty strict about enforcing the formatting, and it
won't even let you change it - if you try, it just pops it back to the
way it thinks it should be. And the way it thinks it should be is not
objectionable (to me, anyway - it's pretty much the way I would format
things anyway) and so it basically always puts your code into standard
formatting no matter what.

Just try it and see.


Hmm... I'd rather not use an editor which absolutely refuses to let me
reformat when I want to! Fortunately, it looks like you can turn that
off.

I know what you mean. And I used to feel that way, too. But I got
assimilated. I used VB.NET for a year or so and got used to that
feature - even came to appreciate it. When I switched over to C#, I
found it annoying that I had to waste my attention fretting over
trivial nonsense like formatting.
Nov 21 '05 #61
Wilbur Slice <pa@papapapa.co m> wrote:
Hmm... I'd rather not use an editor which absolutely refuses to let me
reformat when I want to! Fortunately, it looks like you can turn that
off.


I know what you mean. And I used to feel that way, too. But I got
assimilated. I used VB.NET for a year or so and got used to that
feature - even came to appreciate it. When I switched over to C#, I
found it annoying that I had to waste my attention fretting over
trivial nonsense like formatting.


How much attention does it take to hit '}'? That's all it takes to
reformat a block. Alternatively, Ctrl+K, Ctrl+F will format the
selection.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
Nov 21 '05 #62
On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:24:48 +0100, Jon Skeet [C# MVP]
<sk***@pobox.co m> wrote:
Wilbur Slice <pa@papapapa.co m> wrote:
>Hmm... I'd rather not use an editor which absolutely refuses to let me
>reformat when I want to! Fortunately, it looks like you can turn that
>off.


I know what you mean. And I used to feel that way, too. But I got
assimilated. I used VB.NET for a year or so and got used to that
feature - even came to appreciate it. When I switched over to C#, I
found it annoying that I had to waste my attention fretting over
trivial nonsense like formatting.


How much attention does it take to hit '}'? That's all it takes to
reformat a block. Alternatively, Ctrl+K, Ctrl+F will format the
selection.

Well, like I said. I used to feel the way you do. I made all the
same arguments you're making. But then I used VB.NET for a year or so
and I find that I like it better in this regard.

But it's just a matter of opinion, and you're certainly entitled to
yours. I'm not trying to convert you, I merely stated my personal
opinion.

Nov 21 '05 #63
Depends... read-on... like someone else said it is only a thin layer on top,
best techical summary found is the win script 5.6 help documentation. Note:
a summary to me is a bunch of simple try me examples, and that's what that
is, not some writer, like me's, bs.

1st ask what are your needs; let me summarize then explain. if you are
doing web then i would definately go with vb.net and if you are doing lower
level stuff such as writting hardware drivers then go with vc++. Somewhere
in the middle is c#. I wasted the last several months 16+ hrs a day trying
to get one simple answer, and really concluded it is a far larger battle to
change an os' language, which is really where your question begs to ask...

I think vb for your needs is by far the way to go, yes and no it is easier.
It has the most uses and examples i will say, but any are easy if you spend
the time. Here are some points I 1st overlooked:
1) VB is the LANGUAGE for the ms OFFICE suite, which you will find the key
to any development.
2) its the most WIDELY USED langauage as well.
3) IIS's debug and other key peices to web interaction are made for vb
* Ever language has flaws, vb has a little more history than c# and a larger
library, which will always be true for it has a larger programs base than any
other ms language.
** I don't use it currently, but wish i could at times... so go figure.

--
_______________ ______________
ian laurin
"cf***********@ yahoo.com" wrote:
Hi,

I know that I'm an extreme newb by asking this overly beaten question,
but I am leaning toward C#, becuase the perception is that it is better
to learn than VB.Net. I guess it makes you cooler.:-)

Anyhow, I am a novice programmer, and I will remain one as well...I have
no plans to make programming my life ambition, but I think that it would
be fun to make my databases do some cool tricks and maybe write a
simplistic client to access the database over the LAN, and by internet
as well. My programing will be centered around Data manipulation, i.e.
collecting, sorting, and reporting on this data to myself.....

I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish my
mission. It may be that it doesn't have anything at all to do with the
language, from my understanding they are close to equal, but everyone I
come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net
Please, NO FLAMES; just logic
Thank you in advance!

Nov 21 '05 #64
When i started programing i tried to learn java (about 5 years ago) but gave
up and learnt basic which then progressed into vb4 and then 2 years ago i
got vs.net 2003 and have mainly worked with vb.net up untill christmas but
then i tried to do some programming in c++ and found it impossible to take
what i had learnt in vb to c++. So to try and get into c++ i rewrote a game i
had written in vb to c# and since then i have been able ot write fluently in
c# and have found it 10x easier learning c++ and other c++ like languages
like php, j#, vc++. Personally i would recomend c# as it is simiular to many
other languages, and will help you change to other languages in the future,
although knowing vb is also a good idea, as some big projects are written in
vb.net e.g. DotNetNuke.

another big reason to learn c# is because you are not then tied to microsoft.

borland c# builder and many others also the mono (.net platform for linux
and windows) platform supports c# fully and i have heard that vb.net code
does not compile very well on mono.

also i believe that subconsicenly c# is looked as a better language as it is
more c++ which is known for being a professionals language and respected and
visual basic a basic language for newbies

Lloyd

"cf***********@ yahoo.com" wrote:
Hi,

I know that I'm an extreme newb by asking this overly beaten question,
but I am leaning toward C#, becuase the perception is that it is better
to learn than VB.Net. I guess it makes you cooler.:-)

Anyhow, I am a novice programmer, and I will remain one as well...I have
no plans to make programming my life ambition, but I think that it would
be fun to make my databases do some cool tricks and maybe write a
simplistic client to access the database over the LAN, and by internet
as well. My programing will be centered around Data manipulation, i.e.
collecting, sorting, and reporting on this data to myself.....

I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish my
mission. It may be that it doesn't have anything at all to do with the
language, from my understanding they are close to equal, but everyone I
come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net
Please, NO FLAMES; just logic
Thank you in advance!

Nov 21 '05 #65
Try C Omega from the Microsoft Research site.

"cf***********@ yahoo.com" wrote:
Hi,

I know that I'm an extreme newb by asking this overly beaten question,
but I am leaning toward C#, becuase the perception is that it is better
to learn than VB.Net. I guess it makes you cooler.:-)

Anyhow, I am a novice programmer, and I will remain one as well...I have
no plans to make programming my life ambition, but I think that it would
be fun to make my databases do some cool tricks and maybe write a
simplistic client to access the database over the LAN, and by internet
as well. My programing will be centered around Data manipulation, i.e.
collecting, sorting, and reporting on this data to myself.....

I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish my
mission. It may be that it doesn't have anything at all to do with the
language, from my understanding they are close to equal, but everyone I
come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net
Please, NO FLAMES; just logic
Thank you in advance!

Nov 21 '05 #66
>

How much attention does it take to hit '}'? That's all it takes to
reformat a block. Alternatively, Ctrl+K, Ctrl+F will format the
selection.


on a german keyboard this is 19 keys
including 4 modifiers and two unconvient
finger twists:

if (true)
{
|
}

In VS 2005 code snippets might ease
the pain, I'll try hard to gain from it.

In VB it's 8 keys, no modifiers, no finger twist:

If True Then
|
End If

Curly braces forces me to spend more time
typing and formatting code.

curly braces forces me to read unreadable
formatting by other people.

Curly braces are not verbose enough to improve
editor features like auto formatting and
background compiling.

Curly braces make nested code harder
to read and write, naturally all code
is more or less nested. In VB the IDE
does not only know what type of block
is not closed and shows more meaningful
errors but it also closes the block
automatically, no need for modifier keys
and finger twists.

I understand there are advantages but for the
way my brain and fingers work there are clearly
more disadvantages.

I must admit, if Basic wasn't my first and most
used language I probably would think the opposite.
People get used to doing something one way and
can never get used to doing it another way
even if their method is inferior, people can not
get rid of their habits. I wrote a good amount of
C# and C++ but I don't expect getting used to it
anytime soon.

People have problems understanding differences
of other languages in particular if they didn't
even bother to learn another language. I have tons
of issues with VB as well. I think both languages
are extremes in opposite directions, one is way to
compact and one way to verbose, I wish there would
be something between. I hope someday there will
be a language that fits better to my sense, I've
even considered doing my own language. It would
look pretty much like C# without curly braces,
no parenthesis used after "if", "foreach" etc.,
no semicolons, a couple of keywords added like
"Property" and "Function", better casting syntax
and other small things like "And" instead of &&,
no case sensitiveness. That are the things that
bother me more or less in C#. Lot's of things can
be shortened like "Use" instead of "using" or "Space"
instead of "Namespace" though that keywords aren't
used often anyway.

Regards,
stax
Nov 21 '05 #67
So....if you should learn the .NET Framework, and then learn the various
languages....co uld you please recommend some books to start with on this
journey?

Thanks

"Carlos J. Quintero [.NET MVP]" wrote:
"Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hi************ ***@gmx.at> escribió en el mensaje
news:%2******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP14.phx.gbl. ..
Consider VB's intrinsic functions -- some of these functions exist (with
slight adaptions) since early versions of BASIC and can still be used. I
see these functions as meta-framework which abstracts from the framework
currently used, and thus prefer these functions over corresponding
functionality which is part of the .NET Framework Class Library.


Interesting, although my view is the opposite: I prefer to use the functions
of the .NET Framework instead of the ones of the early Basic, since the code
is very tied to the .NET Framework anyway. Using the functions of the
framework makes it more easy to migrate to, say C#, or even Java (which uses
a different framework), IMHO.

--
Best regards,

Carlos J. Quintero

MZ-Tools: Productivity add-ins for Visual Studio .NET, VB6, VB5 and VBA
You can code, design and document much faster.
Free resources for add-in developers:
http://www.mztools.com

Nov 21 '05 #68
cf***********@y ahoo.com wrote:
Hi,

I know that I'm an extreme newb by asking this overly beaten question,
but I am leaning toward C#, becuase the perception is that it is better
to learn than VB.Net. I guess it makes you cooler.:-)

Anyhow, I am a novice programmer, and I will remain one as well...I have
no plans to make programming my life ambition, but I think that it would
be fun to make my databases do some cool tricks and maybe write a
simplistic client to access the database over the LAN, and by internet
as well. My programing will be centered around Data manipulation, i.e.
collecting, sorting, and reporting on this data to myself.....

I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish my
mission. It may be that it doesn't have anything at all to do with the
language, from my understanding they are close to equal, but everyone I
come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net


VB.NET has a lot of design decisions specifically made for beginners
like you. Things like case-insensitivity, no semicolons or curly
braces, meaningful english words for keywords. Download SharpDevelop,
a free .NET development environment, and you can start designing your
interface and programming your application right away.

I'm recommending VB.NET even though I'm trying to help make another
..NET/Mono language called boo the easiest for beginners. It's still
not there yet.

Nov 21 '05 #69
I have developed in a number of different languages, both MS and non-MS, I
personally like c# and found it rather easy to pick up. I will say there are
some things that a bit easier to do in VB.net than c#, but overall they are
pretty similar. The only warning I would give for a novice is that c# forces
you to be very.... exact. Case sensitive and such, but that is where Visual
Studio is nice, it will let you know when you goof most of the time.

There are a number of resources for whatever you choose. I would first
visit www.asp.net. It has a number of tutorials and a free IDE you can
download to get started. You can play around with a few different things and
see what you like.

From there, on the c# side of the world I have been happy with the Visual C#
..NET Step By Step book (ISBN: 0-7356-1909-3), it is a rather easy read and
covers some of the basic concepts.

I also like the Sams Teach Yourself books pretty well (don't flame me,
remember this is a beginner). Not to mention there are a number of really
good blogs that cover some of the more difficult and harder to find things.
I often search MSDN and google for things I need.

Having worked with other languages I have to say the MS community is one of
the best for helping others out and understanding that people aren't experts.
Good luck I hope this helps.

Ken I.
http://www.kicweb.com/blog
Nov 21 '05 #70

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