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Beating a dead Horse: Which Language

Hi,

I know that I'm an extreme newb by asking this overly beaten question,
but I am leaning toward C#, becuase the perception is that it is better
to learn than VB.Net. I guess it makes you cooler.:-)

Anyhow, I am a novice programmer, and I will remain one as well...I have
no plans to make programming my life ambition, but I think that it would
be fun to make my databases do some cool tricks and maybe write a
simplistic client to access the database over the LAN, and by internet
as well. My programing will be centered around Data manipulation, i.e.
collecting, sorting, and reporting on this data to myself.....

I want to know which language you find most compelling to accomplish my
mission. It may be that it doesn't have anything at all to do with the
language, from my understanding they are close to equal, but everyone I
come in contact with prefer C# over VB.net
Please, NO FLAMES; just logic
Thank you in advance!
Nov 21 '05
114 3734
"Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hi************ ***@gmx.at> wrote in
news:OV******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl:
I don't like the syntax for type casts in C#, I consider it a bad
design and legacy syntax because of the "lots of braces" issue that
could have been solved easily.
I agree.
to the code. The Delphi casting syntax IMO suffers from the problem
that it is similar to a constructor call, especially when being
incorporated into VB.NET or C#, and thus maybe misleading.


Aah - if it were ported directly to C# yes as is. But Delphi constructors are different, so in Delphi
they cannot be confused with type casting.

--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programmin g is an art form that fights back"

Blogs: http://www.hower.org/kudzu/blogs
Nov 21 '05 #101
Jon Skeet [C# MVP] <sk***@pobox.co m> wrote in news:MPG.1d3f86 74e471533398c48 6
@msnews.microso ft.com:
I agree it can be a pain sometimes, but I find that usually it's a good
indication that things can be made more readable by using a local
variable - the cast in one statement and the use in another.
In some cases, but its just another roach point. It allows bugs to creep in, and fairly frequently.
value. I dare say C#'s way isn't the best possible, but I still
personally prefer it to the VB.NET way.


I absolutely do not like the VB.NET way either.

--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programmin g is an art form that fights back"

Blogs: http://www.hower.org/kudzu/blogs
Nov 21 '05 #102
Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu <cp**@hower.org > wrote:
I agree it can be a pain sometimes, but I find that usually it's a good
indication that things can be made more readable by using a local
variable - the cast in one statement and the use in another.


In some cases, but its just another roach point. It allows bugs to
creep in, and fairly frequently.


How? It just makes it more readable, as far as I can see. Where would a
bug creep in? How frequently do you see such bugs creep in? You seem to
see an awful lot of bugs I never see ;)

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
Nov 21 '05 #103

"Jon Skeet [C# MVP]" <sk***@pobox.co m> wrote in message
news:MP******** *************** *@msnews.micros oft.com...
Willy Denoyette [MVP] <wi************ *@telenet.be> wrote:
If this is confusing you might try the "clean" way:

..
Foo x = someFooRef as Foo;
int y = x.Dummy();


Or if you'd prefer to get a ClassCastExcept ion rather than a
NullReferenceEx ception (as I certainly would - it gives a much better
idea of what's actually happened):

Foo x = (Foo) someFooRef;
int y = x.Dummy();

--


Agreed, I just tried to please those who don't like the paired bracketing
characters ;-)

Willy.

Nov 21 '05 #104
Jon Skeet [C# MVP] <sk***@pobox.co m> wrote in
news:MP******** *************** *@msnews.micros oft.com:
How? It just makes it more readable, as far as I can see. Where would
If you dont separate it - which many dont.
a bug creep in? How frequently do you see such bugs creep in? You seem
to see an awful lot of bugs I never see ;)


Because I work with a lot of students, and I also work with a lot of porting projects in which people
are coming from other languages. If I recall, you work on a fixed team in one company, which is
probably true of most developers in this group.

I work with many teams - some long term, some short term, but always new stuff here and there.
--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programmin g is an art form that fights back"

Blogs: http://www.hower.org/kudzu/blogs
Nov 21 '05 #105
In article <Os************ **@TK2MSFTNGP10 .phx.gbl>, Willy Denoyette [MVP] wrote:

"Tom Shelton" <to*@YOUKNOWTHE DRILLmtogden.co m> wrote in message
news:eM******** ********@TK2MSF TNGP12.phx.gbl. ..
In article <MP************ ************@ms news.microsoft. com>, Jon Skeet
[ C# MVP ] wrote:
Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu <cp**@hower.org > wrote:
"Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hi************ ***@gmx.at> wrote in
news:eX******** ******@TK2MSFTN GP12.phx.gbl:
> I don't think that the approaches taken in C#, Delphi, and VB.NET are
> optimal. However, I prefer the way Delphi and VB.NET handle casts.

The syntax? Or other? I dont like the way C# handles it simply
because you often have to add more () to tell it what to cast, and if
you dont it can cast something other than you might expect.

I agree it can be a pain sometimes, but I find that usually it's a good
indication that things can be made more readable by using a local
variable - the cast in one statement and the use in another.

It's one of those situations where I think there's no really good
solution - in some cases you *do* want to cast the result of a method
(eg (Foo) x.Something()) and sometimes you want to cast the "starting"
value. I dare say C#'s way isn't the best possible, but I still
personally prefer it to the VB.NET way.


I so totally agree... VB.NET's way is very cumbersome, especially when
dealing with mutliple casts in the same expression. Besides, for a lot
of simple casts, C# does provide as.

The most confusing cases, IMHO, is when you do something like:

int y = ((Foo) x).CallSomeMeth od ();


If this is confusing you might try the "clean" way:

..
Foo x = someFooRef as Foo;
int y = x.Dummy();
Willy.


Oh, I agree. I'm just seems that when reading code like the example I
gave, that it can sometimes be missed what is going on.

--
Tom Shelton [MVP]
Nov 21 '05 #106
Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu <cp**@hower.org > wrote:
Jon Skeet [C# MVP] <sk***@pobox.co m> wrote in
news:MP******** *************** *@msnews.micros oft.com:
How? It just makes it more readable, as far as I can see. Where would


If you dont separate it - which many dont.


Ah, I see. I took your post to mean that the bugs would creep in if you
*did* separate the lines...
a bug creep in? How frequently do you see such bugs creep in? You seem
to see an awful lot of bugs I never see ;)


Because I work with a lot of students, and I also work with a lot of
porting projects in which people are coming from other languages. If
I recall, you work on a fixed team in one company, which is probably
true of most developers in this group.

I work with many teams - some long term, some short term, but always
new stuff here and there.


Right. I do see a lot of code written outside my team though -
including open source projects and a lot of code here on the
newsgroups, often written by beginners. I still don't see many of the
kind of bugs you talk about - certainly not often enough to talk about
them being *frequent* problems. <shrug>

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
Nov 21 '05 #107
Jon Skeet [C# MVP] <sk***@pobox.co m> wrote in news:MPG.1d3fa6 8a908b4db398c49 3
@msnews.microso ft.com:
Right. I do see a lot of code written outside my team though -
including open source projects and a lot of code here on the
newsgroups, often written by beginners. I still don't see many of the
kind of bugs you talk about - certainly not often enough to talk about
them being *frequent* problems. <shrug>


Because by the time you get the code - its been debugged. It may not be a "release" but it is a release
for others. I work directly with many teams on porting, teaching etc and I see the initimate details of
the development process of various teams - ie what bugs they hit during compiliation, testing etc
before it goes to anyone else.
--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programmin g is an art form that fights back"

Blogs: http://www.hower.org/kudzu/blogs
Nov 21 '05 #108
Chad Z. Hower aka Kudzu <cp**@hower.org > wrote:
Jon Skeet [C# MVP] <sk***@pobox.co m> wrote in news:MPG.1d3fa6 8a908b4db398c49 3
@msnews.microso ft.com:
Right. I do see a lot of code written outside my team though -
including open source projects and a lot of code here on the
newsgroups, often written by beginners. I still don't see many of the
kind of bugs you talk about - certainly not often enough to talk about
them being *frequent* problems. <shrug>


Because by the time you get the code - its been debugged. It may not
be a "release" but it is a release for others. I work directly with
many teams on porting, teaching etc and I see the initimate details
of the development process of various teams - ie what bugs they hit
during compiliation, testing etc before it goes to anyone else.


While that's true of open source projects, it's *certainly* not true of
code posted here - usually the point of people posting code here is
because they've got problems they don't understand! If lots of people
were coming across these kinds of bugs and having problems with them,
I'd expect to see them on the groups - and I just don't.

Of course, I also see the code that my own team is working on - but I
wouldn't be surprised if the team I work with is more experienced than
average.

--
Jon Skeet - <sk***@pobox.co m>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
Nov 21 '05 #109
Jon Skeet [C# MVP] <sk***@pobox.co m> wrote in
news:MP******** *************** *@msnews.micros oft.com:
While that's true of open source projects, it's *certainly* not true
of code posted here - usually the point of people posting code here is
because they've got problems they don't understand! If lots of people
were coming across these kinds of bugs and having problems with them,
I'd expect to see them on the groups - and I just don't.
We certainly see a lot of begginer code here - but the simple stuff they figure out before posting.
But simple != frequent.
Of course, I also see the code that my own team is working on - but I
wouldn't be surprised if the team I work with is more experienced than
average.


Id suggest that they are both more experienced thatn average - as well as having mostly C++
backgounds and long since ago learned not to do certain things. Its just like the type casting we just
discussed. :)
--
Chad Z. Hower (a.k.a. Kudzu) - http://www.hower.org/Kudzu/
"Programmin g is an art form that fights back"

Blogs: http://www.hower.org/kudzu/blogs
Nov 21 '05 #110

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