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Microsoft MVPs Say They Want Old VB Back

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Cor,

"Cor Ligthert" <no************ @planet.nl> schrieb:
It says for me something about *those* MVP's.
What does it say to you? Does it say that people who would loose assets
without further support for VB6 are amateurs and idiots?
Unluckily do I find it therefore very strange to see your name as the only
*hard* regular from this newsgroup in that list.


Although I use .NET (VB.NET, C#) and like the features of VB.NET,
preservation of assets (and the other points of the petition) is very (most)
important for me. It doesn't make sense to compare features of Classic VB
with features of VB.NET, or features of COM with features of .NET, in order
to say "X is better than Y". The fact that there is a lot of Classic VB/VBA
code which will not be migrated in forseeable future for oeconomic reasons,
should make people think about Classic VB's future.

I encourage everybody here to sign the petition. Even if it doesn't affect
you, the signatures will help others to preserve their assets, and it will
bring the Classic VB community a large step closer to .NET.

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 21 '05 #11
"Ray Cassick (Home)" <rc************ @enterprocity.c om> schrieb:
Ok, I was a stupid head here and gave the wrong link to the wrong blog
entry...

http://spaces.msn.com/members/rcassick/Blog/cns!1pXjHq-RqqMSQdLvn5n4gd nw!111.entry


"People, people, people, preservation of assets = stagnation"

I have to disagree. Preservation of assets very important, because people
can spend their money on extending existing systems and developing new
systems instead of spending the money for rewriting existing, well tested
code.

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 21 '05 #12
"Stephany Young" <noone@localhos t> schrieb:
I cannot understand how, on and after 1 April 2005, I am not going to be
able to do things with VB6(SP6) that I can do on and prior to 31 March
2005. Just because 'Mainstream' support is withdrawn from that date does
not mean I won't be able to use it.
Mainstream support is ending, which means that you will have to pay a fee
for fixes, event for critical ones. SP6 brings more problems than it
solves.
Objective 1 of the petition talks about 'Preservation of assets'. If you
have an asset then it is in place today. If it works today then it is not
magically going to stop working on 1 April. It is therefore spurious to
argue that a 'Future versions of VB6/VBA' (sic) (which, at this stage,
there won't be) will destroy your asset(s).
In 2008 the extended support phase will end. From this point, only
companies that have the money to conclude an agreement for further support
with Microsoft will have the chance to get updates. VB6 is used by
1-person-companies a lot, and I doubt that all of them will have the money
to conclude such agreements. Furthermore migration to .NET is often not an
option. The migration path proposed by Microsoft is not suitable in many
cases. Consequently a lof of code won't be migrated at all (/not/ because
people are too lazy to do that, but because people cannot afford the costs
to do that).
In other words - 'I want to see innovation but I also want everything the
way it has always been'.
There is no contradicition between innovation and preserving assets. Many
Microsoft applications are written in C/C++, the code is often many years
old. No need to rewrite the code. That's the best sample for preservation
of assets without delaying innovation. By being able to preserve existing
code and building systems on top of them which are using newer technologies
like .NET, a synergetic effect emerges.
In objective 2 it states 'This core should be enhanced and extended, and
changes should follow a documented deprecation process.' Am I the only one
who wonders how one can enhance and extend something and peprecate it at
the same time. To me 'enhance and extend' and 'deprecate' are complete
opposites.
You can find some samples and information on deprecation of features while
enhancing and extending software at
<URL:http://vb.mvps.org/vfred/deprecation.asp >.
In objective 3 it states 'The decisions of if, how and when to migrate
code to .NET should lie with the customer. Some may choose to remain with
unmanaged VB, especially for legacy code bases. Some will use only VB.NET,
others a mix.' Please excuse my mistake in thinking that this is exactly
the case today and is not going to change on 1 April. Also, don't forget
about the developers who are using a mix of VB6, VB.NET and C#.NET to
provide solutions.
It won't be impossible today, but it will get much harder.
mainstream support is still required?' I am quickly coming to the view
that some are trying to use VB6 to do something that it is just not
designed to do and then criticising Microsoft when it doesn't do it. If
that is the case then I'm afraid I cannot support that sort of behaviour.


Well, such thoughts don't change the status quo. People (and Microsoft)
have to accept the fact that people will loose the assets if there is no
continued support. Blaming people for the current situation doesn't help to
solve the issue.

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 21 '05 #13
Herfried,
It says for me something about *those* MVP's.
What does it say to you? Does it say that people who would loose assets
without further support for VB6 are amateurs and idiots?

Why do you think I would say that, this is your iterprettation, you cannot
find one sylabile in these newsgroups where I ever have used the word
"idiot" that is not my style and absolute opposite from the way I think
about people.

My interprettation is that it is not a good attitude when you are helping
others to look back too the past and "helping" is in my opinion what one of
the first goals of a MVP should be.
Unluckily do I find it therefore very strange to see your name as the
only *hard* regular from this newsgroup in that list.


Although I use .NET (VB.NET, C#) and like the features of VB.NET,
preservation of assets (and the other points of the petition) is very
(most) important for me. It doesn't make sense to compare features of
Classic VB with features of VB.NET, or features of COM with features of
.NET, in order to say "X is better than Y". The fact that there is a lot
of Classic VB/VBA code which will not be migrated in forseeable future for
oeconomic reasons, should make people think about Classic VB's future.

I don't see the sense of this related to my message it were only two lines,
can you explain that.
I encourage everybody here to sign the petition. Even if it doesn't
affect you, the signatures will help others to preserve their assets, and
it will bring the Classic VB community a large step closer to .NET.

Again, I don't see the sense from the last sentence, can you explain that as
well.

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #14
It is riduculous to argue that the line of 'Classic' VB that works today
will not work in the future because 'Mainstream' support has been
discontinued.

I cannot understand this doomsaying that because 'Mainstream' support is
being discontinued, a 'bug' that is not apparent today in the 'Classic' VB
IDE/Compiler/Runtime might magically appear on or soon after 1 April 2005
and therefore any 'Classic' VB code written before that date will be
rendered void immediately on it's appearance. I see a lot of Chicken-Little
here racing off to tell the King that the sky is falling.

Support for VB4 ended long ago but there is still an awful lot of software
being written in VB4 without a lot of doomsaying.

For the record, I have yet to encounter a problem caused by SP6 for VS6, so
I am rather surprised by such a wide ranging claim as 'SP6 brings more
problems than it solves.'.

The thing that surprises me the most is that people seem to be heading off
into a state of self-righteous indignation - 'How dare Microsoft change the
support policy on something so dear to my heart' - without having a good
hard look at what it actually means.

I can only reiterate - If your VB6 program stops working next month then it
will be because of a bug in your code or some external factor; It won't be
the fault of VB6.

Stephany
"Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]" <hi************ ***@gmx.at> wrote in message
news:%2******** *******@TK2MSFT NGP12.phx.gbl.. .
"Stephany Young" <noone@localhos t> schrieb:
I cannot understand how, on and after 1 April 2005, I am not going to be
able to do things with VB6(SP6) that I can do on and prior to 31 March
2005. Just because 'Mainstream' support is withdrawn from that date does
not mean I won't be able to use it.


Mainstream support is ending, which means that you will have to pay a fee
for fixes, event for critical ones. SP6 brings more problems than it
solves.
Objective 1 of the petition talks about 'Preservation of assets'. If you
have an asset then it is in place today. If it works today then it is not
magically going to stop working on 1 April. It is therefore spurious to
argue that a 'Future versions of VB6/VBA' (sic) (which, at this stage,
there won't be) will destroy your asset(s).


In 2008 the extended support phase will end. From this point, only
companies that have the money to conclude an agreement for further support
with Microsoft will have the chance to get updates. VB6 is used by
1-person-companies a lot, and I doubt that all of them will have the money
to conclude such agreements. Furthermore migration to .NET is often not
an option. The migration path proposed by Microsoft is not suitable in
many cases. Consequently a lof of code won't be migrated at all (/not/
because people are too lazy to do that, but because people cannot afford
the costs to do that).
In other words - 'I want to see innovation but I also want everything the
way it has always been'.


There is no contradicition between innovation and preserving assets. Many
Microsoft applications are written in C/C++, the code is often many years
old. No need to rewrite the code. That's the best sample for
preservation of assets without delaying innovation. By being able to
preserve existing code and building systems on top of them which are using
newer technologies like .NET, a synergetic effect emerges.
In objective 2 it states 'This core should be enhanced and extended, and
changes should follow a documented deprecation process.' Am I the only
one who wonders how one can enhance and extend something and peprecate it
at the same time. To me 'enhance and extend' and 'deprecate' are complete
opposites.


You can find some samples and information on deprecation of features while
enhancing and extending software at
<URL:http://vb.mvps.org/vfred/deprecation.asp >.
In objective 3 it states 'The decisions of if, how and when to migrate
code to .NET should lie with the customer. Some may choose to remain with
unmanaged VB, especially for legacy code bases. Some will use only
VB.NET, others a mix.' Please excuse my mistake in thinking that this is
exactly the case today and is not going to change on 1 April. Also, don't
forget about the developers who are using a mix of VB6, VB.NET and C#.NET
to provide solutions.


It won't be impossible today, but it will get much harder.
mainstream support is still required?' I am quickly coming to the view
that some are trying to use VB6 to do something that it is just not
designed to do and then criticising Microsoft when it doesn't do it. If
that is the case then I'm afraid I cannot support that sort of behaviour.


Well, such thoughts don't change the status quo. People (and Microsoft)
have to accept the fact that people will loose the assets if there is no
continued support. Blaming people for the current situation doesn't help
to solve the issue.

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 21 '05 #15
Stephany,

"Stephany Young" <noone@localhos t> schrieb:
It is riduculous to argue that the line of 'Classic' VB that works today
will not work in the future because 'Mainstream' support has been
discontinued.
Re-read my post:

"It won't be impossible today, but it will get much harder."
I cannot understand this doomsaying that because 'Mainstream' support is
being discontinued, a 'bug' that is not apparent today in the 'Classic' VB
IDE/Compiler/Runtime might magically appear on or soon after 1 April 2005
There are currently some known, unfixed bugs. For example, in conjunction
with Microsoft Windows XP Visual Styles, there are accessibility problems
because focus rectangles and underlined accelerator keys are missing.
Support for VB4 ended long ago but there is still an awful lot of software
being written in VB4 without a lot of doomsaying.
There is a viable upgrade path, at least for VB4-32 applications and large
parts of VB4-16 applications.
For the record, I have yet to encounter a problem caused by SP6 for VS6,
so I am rather surprised by such a wide ranging claim as 'SP6 brings more
problems than it solves.'.
There is a bug in the listview control of SP6. Applications will crash when
the user tries to reorder columns. For this bug, a hotfix can be ordered by
Microsoft. I know at least one other annoying bug which is currently
unfixed. Microsoft is AFAIK preparing a fix for this bug, but I fear that
this fix won't be available before free support ends. I avoid using SP6 for
these reasons.
I can only reiterate - If your VB6 program stops working next month then
it will be because of a bug in your code or some external factor; It won't
be the fault of VB6.


Currently there are known, unfixed problems with Windows XP. Is there a
guarantee that VB6 applications will run on Longhorn as smoothly as they did
on Windows 2000, for example?

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 21 '05 #16
Herfried,

Funny is that my message could be understood wrong. However, you understood
directly (partially) my intention. That makes me lucky.

Maybe I had better written that I was lucky that you where the only one,
what would however given as well not my intention.

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #17
Cor,

"Cor Ligthert" <no************ @planet.nl> schrieb:
It says for me something about *those* MVP's.
What does it say to you? Does it say that people who would loose assets
without further support for VB6 are amateurs and idiots?

Why do you think I would say that, this is your iterprettation, you cannot
find one sylabile in these newsgroups where I ever have used the word
"idiot" that is not my style and absolute opposite from the way I think
about people.


:-)
My interprettation is that it is not a good attitude when you are helping
others to look back too the past and "helping" is in my opinion what one
of the first goals of a MVP should be.


Helping customers to preserve their assets is providing help too.
Unluckily do I find it therefore very strange to see your name as the
only *hard* regular from this newsgroup in that list.


Although I use .NET (VB.NET, C#) and like the features of VB.NET,
preservation of assets (and the other points of the petition) is very
(most) important for me. It doesn't make sense to compare features of
Classic VB with features of VB.NET, or features of COM with features of
.NET, in order to say "X is better than Y". The fact that there is a lot
of Classic VB/VBA code which will not be migrated in forseeable future
for oeconomic reasons, should make people think about Classic VB's
future.

I don't see the sense of this related to my message it were only two
lines, can you explain that.
I encourage everybody here to sign the petition. Even if it doesn't
affect you, the signatures will help others to preserve their assets, and
it will bring the Classic VB community a large step closer to .NET.

Again, I don't see the sense from the last sentence, can you explain that
as well.


I wanted to make sure that you don't think that I stopped using .NET :-)
because I signed the petition.

--
M S Herfried K. Wagner
M V P <URL:http://dotnet.mvps.org/>
V B <URL:http://classicvb.org/petition/>

Nov 21 '05 #18
Herfried,
Helping customers to preserve their assets is providing help too.
In my opinion is that not the role for a MVP, that can the customer very
good themselves, a MVP has in my opinion no additional (economic) value in
that, he goes with doing that out of his role.
I wanted to make sure that you don't think that I stopped using .NET :-)
because I signed the petition.


That I am not thinking 100-Nanosecond.

I made a longer message where in I explicitly wrote that, however could not
get it in the right way to make my intentions with that clear on paper and
it could be misunderstood.

Therefore I did not sent it.

:-)

Cor
Nov 21 '05 #19
Stephany,

Very well said and thank you. VB.NET is clearly a superior product and I
admire Microsoft's courage to move away from the outdated VB6 framework. I
like your points that Microsoft has informed us of its plan to discontinue
support for years and that VB6 can still be used after support has ended. I
made the conversion to VB.NET as soon as it was released which proved to be
the most valuable development decision to date. All languages become
obsolete at some point and those who lack the judgment to embrace new
technologies are inevitably left behind.

Lance

Nov 21 '05 #20

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