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Browser and W3C standards Debate

drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
Code to standards:
http://validator.w3.org/

And they should be almost identical (good luck with firefox, it falls a little short)
Though this is an old thread, I wish to correct this statement about Firefox as it is totally false. Firefox, along with Opera, are the most standards compliant browsers on the planet right now while IE, all versions, are nine years behind web standards. It's lead developer, Chris Wilson, stumbles over himself apologizing for IEs shortcomings and publicly acknowledges they have a long road to hoe before catching up with everyone else.

A web developer's mantra is "Code for Firefox/Opera; adjust for IEs quirks and bugs." If you code to web standards and test in Firefox or Opera first, then you can be relatively assured it will work in all browsers. Coding in IE only and you can be relatively assured it won't work in all browsers.
Jun 6 '07 #1
36 2978
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
Yeah I'm doing ok coding to the w3 standards...its just that Firefox has a different way of interpreting the tags than IE....and IE 6 is different from IE7....etc.

I would like my apps to look the same way in all browsers.
I'm just getting fed up with having to publish my site in order to test it with a browser other than IE during.

I'd like to be able to hit the |> (play/start debugging) button in Visual Studio and have it load the site in Firefox instead of IE.
As stated above, Firefox interprets the standards far better than any version of IE. It is IE that fails some code altogether or misinterprets what is there. Never, ever initially test code in IE or you are almost guaranteed it will fail in modern browsers such as anything but IE.
Jun 6 '07 #2
Plater
7,872 Expert 4TB
Funny, I can never get firefox to work with CSS. I code to standards, the W3 validators say I'm doing it perfect, yet half the features are missing in firefox

Now I'm not saying IE is good, by all means yes IE6 vs IE7 even have different intrpretations of how to "default look", but when I change the border on something. Most differences I see are because IE's defaulting for objects is different then how firefox defaults. I get those. I fix those. It's fine.
Jun 7 '07 #3
Frinavale
9,735 Expert Mod 8TB
Funny, I can never get firefox to work with CSS. I code to standards, the W3 validators say I'm doing it perfect, yet half the features are missing in firefox

Now I'm not saying IE is good, by all means yes IE6 vs IE7 even have different intrpretations of how to "default look", but when I change the border on something. Most differences I see are because IE's defaulting for objects is different then how firefox defaults. I get those. I fix those. It's fine.
I find the same thing.

-Frinny
Jun 7 '07 #4
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
Wait a minute! Are you talking about default settings or standards compliance?! Those are two different things.

There are lots of sites out there that show the problems of IE and how to fix/hack them. There are NO sites on the 'net dedicated to fixing FF or Opera or any other browser.

I defy ANYONE to show where Firefox or Opera do a worse job of complying with the standards than ANY other browser on the planet. You can't do it!
Jun 7 '07 #5
Plater
7,872 Expert 4TB
As I JUST said in that post and in a PM
CSS -> border color.

I was moving on to the reasony why IE "fails" is because it add default assumptions not put in standards compliance. I don't believe I said IE was great at compliance, I said I didn't like firefox did it, and they're not in compliance either.
Jun 7 '07 #6
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
Firefox has NO problems with border colors and you need to show your COMPLETE html and css so we can show you the correct to code html and css. Obviously you are doing it wrong. From your PM you indicate you can leave out units for dimensions but expect browsers to know what you mean. You have to follow the rules if you expect a standard response from a browser.
Jun 7 '07 #7
Plater
7,872 Expert 4TB
I don't think your reading comprehension skills are very high (nor is my ability to make coherent sentances).
That is not what I said, I was providing aside answers, you appear to have skimmed and smushed thoughts together.
I DO NOT expect things to look right when i leave out units, I was saying that that kind of defaulting, non-strict, behavior is where IE fails to follow standards.
Jun 7 '07 #8
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
My contention with you is your statement above that the poster needed to code to standards but Firefox "falls a little short". Rather than hijacking this thread with OT comments, you can start another thread or continue this via PM.
Jun 7 '07 #9
Plater
7,872 Expert 4TB
The thread was already hijacked when you saw my post on a related topic in another forum and went searching for my other posts about it.
Perhaps compliance is the wrong word, I found firefox falling a little short in it's "implementation" (ie, it seemed to leave stuff out, doesn't mean what is HAS isn't following a standard I suppose)
Jun 7 '07 #10
Frinavale
9,735 Expert Mod 8TB
The original question was how do I change the default browser for Visual Studio 2005 to be FireFox instead of IE for testing purposes.

I don't think its possible...instead I created the project in the Inetpub/www/projectName folder (the web server) on my dev machine so that all the code I edit is already edited on the server.

That saved me the time of having to publish my code constantly to the web server folder before I could view it with FireFox.

As for the issue with browsers w3c code compliance...this is just another reason why marketing bothers me.

Every browser wants some sort of competitive edge over another browser so they changes things ever so slightly in order to give the customer some little thing that only works in their browser. They want to hook their customers in.

The marketing people have plagued us programmers with their strategy. They've made our lives harder and that's all there is too it.

FireFox may be W3C compliant but it acts differently than IE and Opera etc.
We know that the problem exists.
We have to live with it because there's no going back in time to prevent the marketing peoples (<-- wanted to use stronger language here) from making our lives difficult.

Even though we follow the W3C standards, we still have to check and tweak things so that it works across board.

I don't understand how you can get so heated over the issue.
Its just a fact of life as a programmer that we can't get around. We'll never be able to convince the marketing peoples to change their products so that they work consistently with respect to the other products on the market.

(in other words, calm down ;)

-Frinny
Jun 7 '07 #11
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
FireFox may be W3C compliant but it acts differently than IE and Opera etc.
We know that the problem exists.
Different in what way? As far as rendering a web page goes, Firefox and Opera are virtually the same. Or do you mean how the menus operate? As far as W3C standards compliance and rendering go, Firefox and Opera are the leaders. If you code to the standard and test in one of those, you will almost always be fine in all browsers. It is only IE that causes problems. If it weren't for IE, my development time might be cut in half because I wouldn't have to waste time fixing working, standard code to force fit it to IEs bugs.

No, Internet Explorer did not handle that properly.
IE is a cancer on the web.
Jun 7 '07 #12
Frinavale
9,735 Expert Mod 8TB
Different in what way? As far as rendering a web page goes, Firefox and Opera are virtually the same. Or do you mean how the menus operate? As far as W3C standards compliance and rendering go, Firefox and Opera are the leaders. If you code to the standard and test in one of those, you will almost always be fine in all browsers. It is only IE that causes problems. If it weren't for IE, my development time might be cut in half because I wouldn't have to waste time fixing working, standard code to force fit it to IEs bugs.

No, Internet Explorer did not handle that properly.
IE is a cancer on the web.
I'm not getting into this debate.
I was hoping to calm down the conversation.
Browser differences are just something that we are going to have to deal with as programmers. I know its frustrating and we all have to vent at some time but as Experts and Moderators we should be a bit more...discrete with our venting.

I'm going to split this thread so that you can vent in the Cafe/Lounge forum.

-Frinny

(PS it was the a menu issue I was referring to...Firefox just made a mess of it and I had to find another menu control that worked in all browsers...I'm happy with it now that it's working.)
Jun 7 '07 #13
bartonc
6,596 Expert 4TB
Different in what way? As far as rendering a web page goes, Firefox and Opera are virtually the same. Or do you mean how the menus operate? As far as W3C standards compliance and rendering go, Firefox and Opera are the leaders. If you code to the standard and test in one of those, you will almost always be fine in all browsers. It is only IE that causes problems. If it weren't for IE, my development time might be cut in half because I wouldn't have to waste time fixing working, standard code to force fit it to IEs bugs.

No, Internet Explorer did not handle that properly.
IE is a cancer on the web.
Then why, for example, does Firefox NOT copy code from posts on this site properly. I have to go in and get the raw text from the Reply page to avoid a "#\n" on every other line, instead of what I'd like to do: Copy directly from the post.

Don't get me wrong. I like the speed of Firefox and I like for M$ to have competition. And I would really like to switch browsers without having to find a bunch of work-arounds. I am very close to setting Firefox as my default browser, but still have issues (as I type this, text is scrolled slightly to the left) with the way some widgets are handled. How can we say "It's the site's fault" when these type of things are handled by other software more elegantly?
Jun 7 '07 #14
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
It's unfortunate I am leaving to go out of town in about an hour. I have not heard such posts about Firefox in over a year and am shocked when someone makes one. I thought those battles died back then.
Jun 7 '07 #15
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
bartonc,
We're talking about W3C standards compliance not operating issues. Obviously, since you are the only one with this problem, there must be something else. I have 10 systems that run FF just fine and have never seen any of your problems
Jun 7 '07 #16
MMcCarthy
14,534 Expert Mod 8TB
Just a note of caution here. Please keep this debate from escalating to an argument. I'm all for healthy debate but don't want to entertain our members with an argument.

Regardless of the understandable frustration felt when someone misunderstands your point please keep it calm and courteous.

Mary
Jun 8 '07 #17
r035198x
13,262 8TB
Since I come to my cafe to relax, I have moved your thread to the Software development forum where you can all continue your nonsense about those things. Might I suggest that you put a link to the standards (if you have any) and then anyone arguing would actually know what is being meant by the standards.
Jun 8 '07 #18
Banfa
9,065 Expert Mod 8TB
Subscribing twee-tidley-dum
Jun 8 '07 #19
acoder
16,027 Expert Mod 8TB
Just wading in to the debate.

IE has problems with Javascript too. You have to program the W3C standards way for modern browsers other than IE and then for IE separately, e.g. IE has a completely different event model. IE also has its fair share of gotchas.
Jun 13 '07 #20
Banfa
9,065 Expert Mod 8TB
IE has problems with Javascript too.
Isn't that because IE does not support JavaScript, it supports JScript, MS own and subtly (or in some cases not so subtly) different version of JavaScript.
Jun 13 '07 #21
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
Yes. It's behind on standard javascript. It also doesn't support the DOM properly either. Test your browser here.
Jun 13 '07 #22
TRScheel
638 Expert 512MB
Yes. It's behind on standard javascript. It also doesn't support the DOM properly either. Test your browser here.
That page is a bit hard to understand, but from what I gather, the fact that going there with IE7 yielded almost all N/A or years, and only one 'Supported', is a bad thing?
Jun 13 '07 #23
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
Yes, it's awful. Go there with another browser and you'll see a huge difference. For example, while IE7 supports almost nothing, Firefox supports almost everything, except Level3 which I don't think is stable yet. Same with Opera and others.
Jun 13 '07 #24
RedSon
5,000 Expert 4TB
Subscribing twee-tidley-dum
I <3 banfa LOL
Jun 13 '07 #25
RedSon
5,000 Expert 4TB
Additionally let me suggest that such a debate would be a fine candidate for an article examining the difference between the browsers and their support or lack of support for published W3C standards.

Each party could create an article that examines both the pros and cons of each browser (IE, and FF, maybe Opera if someone likes that better). You can title your article in such a way so that we know what your position is, like how it is done on voter's pamphlets.
Jun 13 '07 #26
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
It is no longer open for debate. Microsoft themselves openly admit their browser does not adequately support the standards as other browsers do. And their are a bazillion web sites on how to hack IE to make it conform.

I guess I should write an article about how to test for web browsers. The rule is to always initially test using Firefox or Opera and then adjust for IEs quirks and bugs. I still see noobs who only test in IE and then glance at the others which is totally backwards.
Jun 13 '07 #27
Banfa
9,065 Expert Mod 8TB
Yes. It's behind on standard javascript. It also doesn't support the DOM properly either. Test your browser here.
Well didn't I get a shock, went there using FF and everything showed up in red as unsupported. It took a few minutes of pondering and then actually reading the page and then a little more pondering before I realised that I need to enable JavaScript for the page (I use the NoScript plug-in to block all JavaScript by default which I actually find much more effective than AdBlock). Then suddenly most of it showed as supported and a breathed a sigh of relief.
Jun 13 '07 #28
acoder
16,027 Expert Mod 8TB
Yes. It's behind on standard javascript. It also doesn't support the DOM properly either. Test your browser here.
Excellent link. IE6 only claims to support HTML level 1. I guess IE7 does likewise. What kind of improvement is that?
Jun 14 '07 #29
acoder
16,027 Expert Mod 8TB
Isn't that because IE does not support JavaScript, it supports JScript, MS own and subtly (or in some cases not so subtly) different version of JavaScript.
Yes, JScript. I hate that proprietary stuff. Makes it so much more difficult. If everyone followed standards, wouldn't it be so much easier?

The worst thing is when someone comes along and says, "but Microsoft is the standard!"
Jun 14 '07 #30
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
The worst thing is when someone comes along and says, "but Microsoft is the standard!"
Some things about that:

1) Microsoft has vowed to become W3C standards compliant. So by not following the W3C, people run the risk of their code breaking in future versions of IE. This has already happened with the upgrade to IE7.

2) Microsoft is a member of the W3C and, at one time, the lead developer for IE was nominated to chair the group.

3) Microsoft has joined with WASP, the web standards group, to further improve W3C standards support, along with some hirings in that area.

4) IE browser usage has slowly eroded over the years as users have found better and developers tire of the IE bugs and lack of IE support for web features and standards.

5) About 1 out of every 5 internet users do not use IE. This is as high as 1 in 2 in some countries in Europe and Australia, or 1 in 4 in others.
Jun 14 '07 #31
Banfa
9,065 Expert Mod 8TB
5) About 1 out of every 5 internet users do not use IE. This is as high as 1 in 2 in some countries in Europe and Australia, or 1 in 4 in others.
Are you sure about this statistic? I only ask because from personal experience of the sites I run only about 1 in 10 internet users don't use IE.
Jun 14 '07 #32
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
Your mileage may vary. Some web developer sites I visit report 80% non-IE usage. I find it interesting that most developer sites, technical people who should know better, always report much higher Firefox and Opera usage.

This link shows 20% non-IE usage. This one says IE usage is less.
Much worse here.

The high usage in Europe and Australia was reported by the NY Times and Ars Technica. I'd have to find the links.

Not the ArsTechnica article I was looking for but a February report.
Jun 14 '07 #33
Plater
7,872 Expert 4TB
So I know took a lot of heat for what I had ment as just an off hand comment. I was a bit frustrated with trying to get colored borders to show up in firefox (if anyone can shoot me a pm with a quick CSS for it for DIVs and SPANs it would be a huge help as they still only show up as white)
I am well aware that MS fails on it's standards compliance. I do believe that you should still code to the w3c standards and tweak afterwards. Don't code to any browser, regardless of it's level of standards compliance.
Which is why it bugs me when websites don't work and when they find out I was using IE they just say get <browser>. And then I go and validate the site and they have hundreds of errors.... THAT is where I see the problem, hiding behind the feeling of superiority didn't work for the titanic and it has no place in coding either. Be you on the firefox/mozzilla OR Microsofts side. Nothing is perfect.
Jun 14 '07 #34
r035198x
13,262 8TB
So I know took a lot of heat for what I had ment as just an off hand comment. I was a bit frustrated with trying to get colored borders to show up in firefox (if anyone can shoot me a pm with a quick CSS for it for DIVs and SPANs it would be a huge help as they still only show up as white)
I am well aware that MS fails on it's standards compliance. I do believe that you should still code to the w3c standards and tweak afterwards. Don't code to any browser, regardless of it's level of standards compliance.
Which is why it bugs me when websites don't work and when they find out I was using IE they just say get <browser>. And then I go and validate the site and they have hundreds of errors.... THAT is where I see the problem, hiding behind the feeling of superiority didn't work for the titanic and it has no place in coding either. Be you on the firefox/mozzilla OR Microsofts side. Nothing is perfect.
I do agree that nothing is perfect. However, I also think that once a standard is introduced, it is possible to define points closer to the standard than other points and IE stands at a more distant point from the w3c standards than other browsers.
Jun 14 '07 #35
Plater
7,872 Expert 4TB
Anyone? CSS? No? Darn it, the borders are so pretty true...I want them to show up everywhere. I know I'm missing something dumb somewhere
Jun 15 '07 #36
drhowarddrfine
7,435 Expert 4TB
Show me the markup with the problem. All browsers are just fine with border colors.

div{
border:1px solid red
}
Jun 15 '07 #37

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