Change PC to Win or Windows

[Joel Teichroeb]

In trunk of the svn there is a folder called PCbuild. Now lets say that
I am running linux on my Personal Computer and want to build python. I
go into the PCbuild directory, but wait. This is for windows not for any
personal computer.

Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would
not have to directly mention Windows. Could all the places that say PC
that are not referring to Personal Computers in general be changed to
Win or Windows.

[Derek Martin]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 03:46:13PM -0700, Joel Teichroeb wrote:

Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would
not have to directly mention Windows.

Actually it's something IBM did when they created the IBM PC. Of
course, all IBM PCs ran MS-DOS, since that's how IBM sold them...
Then others started to build copies the IBM PC based on Intel
hardware, and the resulting class of computers was called,
collectively, "PC Clones" -- shortened to PCs -- by the industry and
its market. Then companies like AMD and Cyrix started building
Intel-compatible CPUs, and the term PC was extended to include systems
built using those architectures. Eventually Windows was released, and
PCs became Windows boxen running on Intel-compatible hardware, and I
personally know no one who doesn't use the term that way...

Much like the English word "bank" (and numerous others), the term "PC"
has come to have several meanings, one of which is the above. You may
not like it, but we're pretty much stuck with the term, so you may as
well get used to it.

--
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D
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[=?ISO-8859-15?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=]

Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would

not have to directly mention Windows. Could all the places that say PC
that are not referring to Personal Computers in general be changed to
Win or Windows.

That's bikeshedding. If the name stops you from building your own
binaries, you should use prebuilt binaries, or read the documentation.

Regards,
Martin

[Grant Edwards]

On 2008-07-18, Martin v. Löwis <ma****@v.loewis.dewrote:

>Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so
they would not have to directly mention Windows. Could all the
places that say PC that are not referring to Personal
Computers in general be changed to Win or Windows.

That's bikeshedding.

:)

I had to look that one up.

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! An INK-LING? Sure --
at TAKE one!! Did you BUY any
visi.com COMMUNIST UNIFORMS??

[Lie]

On Jul 19, 6:14*am, Derek Martin <[e-mail]:

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 03:46:13PM -0700, Joel Teichroeb wrote:

Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would
not have to directly mention Windows.

Actually it's something IBM did when they created the IBM PC. *Of
course, all IBM PCs ran MS-DOS, since that's how IBM sold them...
Then others started to build copies the IBM PC based on Intel
hardware, and the resulting class of computers was called,
collectively, "PC Clones" -- shortened to PCs -- by the industry and
its market. *Then companies like AMD and Cyrix started building
Intel-compatible CPUs, and the term PC was extended to include systems
built using those architectures. *Eventually Windows was released, and
PCs became Windows boxen running on Intel-compatible hardware, and I
personally know no one who doesn't use the term that way...

Much like the English word "bank" (and numerous others), the term "PC"
has come to have several meanings, one of which is the above. *You may
not like it, but we're pretty much stuck with the term, so you may as
well get used to it.

--
Derek D. Martinhttp://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D

*application_pgp-signature_part
1KDownload

That's not the point, PC is personal computer, a computer that is
owned personally, instead of being owned by a department, a company, a
government, etc. IBM PC is one of the first computers that ordinary
people could possess, when IBM-clones appeared on the market, they're
referred as PCs too because they are Personal Computer, a computer
that is designed for personal use. The brand of the computer, the type
of processors, Operating System, etc doesn't qualify a computer as PC
or not-PC, what qualify a computer as a PC is its design and marketing
and popular usage. Design: a computer that is designed to be small,
cheap, and easy-to-use to be owned personally. Marketing: how the
computer is marketed as, the marketing people generally follows the
designer on what to mark a computer as. Popular Usage: What the people
who bought the computer used it for, this generally follows the
marketing terms used on the computer.

In short, Apple's computers (Mac, OSX) are PC too, and is not less PC
than any other PCs. In fact any computers owned and used by a person
(instead of a group of persons) is a personal computer. This way
saying windows-based computer as PC is correct, however badmouthing PC
while advertising itself is the same as badmouthing itself in its own
advertisement.

In a more programming term:

class PC(object):
def who(self):
print('I am a PC')

class IBMPC(PC):
def who(self):
super(IBMPC, self).who()
print 'My brand is IBM'

class Windows(PC):
def who(self):
super(Windows, self).who()
print 'My OS is Windows'

class Mac(PC):
def who(self):
super(Mac, self).who()

# denies thyself
print 'but I do not want to be called as PC'

print 'My OS is Mac'

Apple is an ungrateful son (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Malin_Kundang ). May they turns back to realize themselves before they
turned into a stone.

[Grant Edwards]

On 2008-07-19, Dennis Lee Bieber <wl*****@ix.netcom.comwrote:

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:14:43 -0400, Derek Martin <co**@pizzashack.org>
declaimed the following in comp.lang.python:

>On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 03:46:13PM -0700, Joel Teichroeb wrote:

Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would
not have to directly mention Windows.

Actually it's something IBM did when they created the IBM PC. Of

Bah... PC was short for Personal Computer...

I had never heard PC or "Personal Computer" until the IBM-PC.
Before that, such compturs were called "micro computers"

Which term applied to the TRS-80, the Apple II, Altair even...

Not that I remember. I had a homebrew S-100 bus system, worked
with varioius Commodore machines, a few Apples, and some other
CP/M systems. I never heard any of them called a 'PC'. My
recollection is that 'PC' was a term that IBM coined.

Being a computer small enough to be single-user ("personal")
vs a department-wide mini, or company-wide mainframe...

I remember those being called microcomputers. A "PC" meant an IBM.

--
Grant

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sebastian_Be=DFler?=]

Grant Edwards schrieb:

Not that I remember. I had a homebrew S-100 bus system, worked
with varioius Commodore machines,

My C64 has a label that says "Personal Computer" on it.
So a C64 is a PC.

Sebastian

[Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:02:51 -0500, Grant Edwards wrote:

On 2008-07-19, Dennis Lee Bieber <wl*****@ix.netcom.comwrote:

>Which term applied to the TRS-80, the Apple II, Altair even...

Not that I remember. I had a homebrew S-100 bus system, worked
with varioius Commodore machines, a few Apples, and some other
CP/M systems. I never heard any of them called a 'PC'. My
recollection is that 'PC' was a term that IBM coined.

The C64 that still sits on my desk has a label on it saying “commodore 64
- personal computer�.

Ciao,
Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch

[Duncan Booth]

Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch <bj****@gmx.netwrote:

On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:02:51 -0500, Grant Edwards wrote:

>On 2008-07-19, Dennis Lee Bieber <wl*****@ix.netcom.comwrote:

>>Which term applied to the TRS-80, the Apple II, Altair even...

Not that I remember. I had a homebrew S-100 bus system, worked
with varioius Commodore machines, a few Apples, and some other
CP/M systems. I never heard any of them called a 'PC'. My
recollection is that 'PC' was a term that IBM coined.

The C64 that still sits on my desk has a label on it saying
“commodore 64 - personal computer�.

and I cut my programming teeth on a Sharp MZ80K personal computer.

http://www.sharpmz.org/mz-80k/images/mz80kade1_1.jpg

[Michiel Overtoom]

On Saturday 19 July 2008 22:30:29 Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

I still wonder who came up with the Commodore PET -- Personal
Electronic Transactor... yeesh... But the "Personal" was already in play
way back then.

Probably Chuck Peddle, Jack Tramiel or Leonard Tramiel.

For your amusement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PET_2001

Greetings,

--
"The ability of the OSS process to collect and harness
the collective IQ of thousands of individuals across
the Internet is simply amazing." - Vinod Vallopillil
http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/halloween4.html

[Derek Martin]

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:34:41PM -0700, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:14:43 -0400, Derek Martin <co**@pizzashack.org>
declaimed the following in comp.lang.python:

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 03:46:13PM -0700, Joel Teichroeb wrote:

Calling Windows PC seems to be something that Apple did so they would
not have to directly mention Windows.

Actually it's something IBM did when they created the IBM PC. Of

Bah... PC was short for Personal Computer...

I'm well aware... congratulations on completely missing the point. I
was describing how the term PC has become synonimous with Windows
machines.

--
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D
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[Derek Martin]

On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 02:56:07AM -0700, Lie wrote:

On Jul 19, 6:14*am, Derek Martin <[e-mail]:

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 03:46:13PM -0700, Joel Teichroeb wrote:
Much like the English word "bank" (and numerous others), the term "PC"
has come to have several meanings, one of which is the above. *You may
not like it, but we're pretty much stuck with the term, so you may as
well get used to it.

That's not the point,

It very much IS the point. Language evolves based on common usage
patterns of the people who use it. The term "PC" is commonly used in
English, in the United States and other English speaking countries, to
mean a computer running Microsoft Windows. That's a simple fact that
you can not escape, no matter how much you may not like it (it just so
happens that I also don't like it, but I realized long ago the
futility of arguing against its usage). It's still a fact, and I
described roughly how that fact came to be. It wasn't something that
Apple started; it's been used this way in increasingly common usage
for at least 20 years, although exactly what combination of hardware
and software was being refered to as a "PC" has evolved over that
timeframe.

PC was a short form of "personal computer", which is how IBM came up
with the name. Nevertheless, with the ubiquity of IBM hardware, and
subsequent popularity of clones running Microsoft operating systems,
the term "PC" has, in the present day, come to mean "a personal
computer based on Intel-compatible hardware running a flavor of
Microsoft Windows." It is used this way by the consumer computer
industry, and it is used this way by the common population. Ipso
facto "PC" means a windows box, in common English usage today.

You don't have to like it, and you don't even have to acknowledge it.
But if you choose not to, or argue against using it that way, you're
in denial, plain and simple.

--
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D
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[Derek Martin]

On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 02:56:07AM -0700, Lie wrote:

government, etc. IBM PC is one of the first computers that ordinary
people could possess, when IBM-clones appeared on the market, they're
referred as PCs too because they are Personal Computer, a computer
that is designed for personal use.

Just to be clear, this statement is WRONG. PC-clones were so called
because they were clones of the IBM-PC. The term is very specific to
IBM-compatible hardware.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pc_clone

IBM PC compatible computers are those generally similar to the
original IBM PC, XT, and AT. Such computers used to be referred to
as PC clones, or IBM clones since they almost exactly duplicated
all the significant features of the PC, XT, or AT internal design,
facilitated by various manufacturers' ability to legally reverse
engineer the BIOS through cleanroom design.

Wikipedia's article on the personal computer accurately reflects
the multiple meanings of the term, and points out the common usage
to mean a Windows box:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer

Today a PC may be a desktop computer, a laptop computer or a
tablet computer. The most common operating systems are Microsoft
Windows, Mac OS X and Linux, while the most common microprocessors
are x86 compatible CPUs. However, the term "PC" is often used
only to refer to computers running Microsoft Windows.

So please stop your whining and get used to the idea that THE REST OF
THE WORLD uses PC to mean a Windows box.

--
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D
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[Lie]

It very much IS the point. Language evolves based on common usage
patterns of the people who use it.

That is inarguably correct.

The term "PC" is commonly used in English, in the United States
and other English speaking countries, to mean a computer running
Microsoft Windows.

As far as I am aware, they're like that because most people aren't
even aware that there are other OSes than Microsoft Windows. If the
world is still back in the 80s or 90s when people that use computers
means they're knowledgeable enough about computer, PCs would be either
applied to "all kinds of small computer/microcomputer" or only to "IBM-
branded microcomputers", the latter because PC is originally IBM's
marketing term, the former is a natural expansion of the meaning since
"Personal Computer" is a neutral term, unlike marketing terms like:
"TravelMate", "Lifebook", "MacBook", "GeForce", etc. "Personal
Computer" is more like the term "Mobile Phone" which is brand-neutral
and is usable by any brand, regardless of how the term originated.

The reason why the world hasn't evolved to the two predictable cases
("all kinds of microcomputers" or "IBM-PC and clones"), is what I'll
explain below.

That's a simple fact that you can not escape, no matter how
much you may not like it (it just so happens that I also don't l
ike it, but I realized long ago the futility of arguing against
its usage). It's still a fact, and I described roughly how
that fact came to be.

It wasn't something that Apple started; it's been used this way
in increasingly common usage for at least 20 years, although
exactly what combination of hardware and software was being
refered to as a "PC" has evolved over that timeframe.

Apple popularizes the term by explicit marketing, but the real blame
is to Microsoft's dominance, though it is without their explicit
consent, blessing, or resistance. Not entirely Microsoft's fault for
being dominant, but their dominance in the lower level users makes
those lower level user unaware of other OSes and applied the term PC
to Windows-based computers. When other OSes are gaining popularity
again (i.e. when Microsoft starts to lose its total and complete
dominance, i.e. around right now) the term's meaning become a huge
matter because people associated the term with Microsoft Windows (i.e.
software), not with IBM-PC and its clones anymore (i.e. hardware).

On Jul 21, 11:50*pm, Derek Martin <[e-mail]:

On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 02:56:07AM -0700, Lie wrote:

government, etc. IBM PC is one of the first computers that ordinary
people could possess, when IBM-clones appeared on the market, they're
referred as PCs too because they are Personal Computer, a computer
that is designed for personal use.

Just to be clear, this statement is WRONG. *PC-clones were so called
because they were clones of the IBM-PC. *The term is very specific to
IBM-compatible hardware. *

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pc_clone

* * IBM PC compatible computers are those generally similar to the
* * original IBM PC, XT, and AT. Such computers used to be referred to
* * as PC clones, or IBM clones since they almost exactly duplicated
* * all the significant features of the PC, XT, or AT internal design,
* * facilitated by various manufacturers' ability to legally reverse
* * engineer the BIOS through cleanroom design.

Wikipedia's article on the personal computer accurately reflects
the multiple meanings of the term, and points out the common usage
to mean a Windows box:

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer

* * Today a PC may be a desktop computer, a laptop computer or a
* * tablet computer. The most common operating systems are Microsoft
* * Windows, Mac OS X and Linux, while the most common microprocessors
* * are x86 compatible CPUs. *However, the term "PC" is often used
* * only to refer to computers running Microsoft Windows.

So please stop your whining and get used to the idea that THE REST OF
THE WORLD uses PC to mean a Windows box.

The rest of the world? Not in this part of the world, not in my whole
country at the least...

[Derek Martin]

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 12:32:00PM -0700, Lie wrote:

The term "PC" is commonly used in English, in the United States
and other English speaking countries, to mean a computer running
Microsoft Windows.

As far as I am aware, they're like that because most people aren't
even aware that there are other OSes than Microsoft Windows.

You are missing two points.

The first one: It doesn't matter what the reasons are for the
terminology to be common. It only matters that it IS common. It is;
and it is therefore "correct" in the sense that it conveys a meaning
to the overwhelming majority of English speakers, which is the
intended one.

As for the question of whether or not it is appropriate to refer to
Windows installations as "PC", it's as simple as that. It is, by
definition (via common usage). That is what this thread is about.

The reason why the world hasn't evolved to the two predictable cases
("all kinds of microcomputers" or "IBM-PC and clones"), is what I'll
explain below.

Your explanation is irrelevant to the argument of whether or not the
term PC is an inappropriate term to describe a Windows installation,
which is what this thread is about. That is the premise put forth by
the OP, and that is the notion to which I am responding. It simply is
not wrong or inappropriate in any sense; it is in fact correct,
regardless of how the meaning or usage resulted, and regardless of any
ADDITIONAL meanings the term may have.

For what it's worth, your explanation is also WRONG; the term PC
began to be popularly used in the United States to describe
Intel-based Microsoft machines when there was a proliferation of other
kinds of personal computers available to consumers. When it was first
used this way, the IBM PC was *NOT* the most popular personal computer...
the Commodore 64 was. It dates from a time when the Commodore VIC-20
and C64, Atari 400 and 800, Timex Sinclair, and other computers were
all very popluar home machines.

The term probably originated primarily because IBM chose to name their
computer the IBM PC, and because of Americans' predeliction to
abbreviate everything that's more than 2 syllables. ;-)

It wasn't something that Apple started; it's been used this way
in increasingly common usage for at least 20 years, although
exactly what combination of hardware and software was being
refered to as a "PC" has evolved over that timeframe.

Apple popularizes the term by explicit marketing,

And here is the last point you are missing: Apple does no such
thing. They are only using a term in a way that has previously been
popularized by the computer industry as a whole, and its market (i.e.
consumers, predominantly American consumers historically) for
*DECADES*. If I'm not mistaken, their ad campaign mentioning PCs is
less than 10 years old (though I can't quickly find any references as
to the date). The popularization of the term PC to refer to
Intel-compatible machines running Microsoft OSes PREDATES APPLE'S AD
CAMPAIGN BY OVER 10 YEARS.

Therefore none of your points are valid or relevant, as to the
question of whether the usage of the term "PC" to describe windows
builds of Python is appropriate.

Can we return to the subject of Python now?

--
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D
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[Lie]

On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 16:45 -0400, Derek Martin wrote:

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 12:32:00PM -0700, Lie wrote:

The term "PC" is commonly used in English, in the United States
and other English speaking countries, to mean a computer running
Microsoft Windows.

As far as I am aware, they're like that because most people aren't
even aware that there are other OSes than Microsoft Windows.

You are missing two points.

The first one: It doesn't matter what the reasons are for the
terminology to be common. It only matters that it IS common. It is;
and it is therefore "correct" in the sense that it conveys a meaning
to the overwhelming majority of English speakers, which is the
intended one.

True, it doesn't actually matters, but it is a proof that it is
technically incorrect to apply PC JUST to Windows-based PC. It is
arguable whether the term should only be exclusively to IBM-PC or
whether the term should be expanded to include its clones. But I'm
against on using it just to refer Windows-based PC exclusively, since
it is neither Microsoft's marketing term nor a literal meaning
conveyed in the term.

As for the question of whether or not it is appropriate to refer to
Windows installations as "PC", it's as simple as that. It is, by
definition (via common usage). That is what this thread is about.

Common usage isn't always correct. For example, a physicist would not
use weight when he meant mass. Although in daily use he might not care
much, but in technical environment doing so would embarrass him. In
this analogy, I consider download page for a software source code to
be a technical area.

The reason why the world hasn't evolved to the two predictable cases

("all kinds of microcomputers" or "IBM-PC and clones"), is what I'll
explain below.

Your explanation is irrelevant to the argument of whether or not the
term PC is an inappropriate term to describe a Windows installation,
which is what this thread is about. That is the premise put forth by
the OP, and that is the notion to which I am responding. It simply is
not wrong or inappropriate in any sense; it is in fact correct,
regardless of how the meaning or usage resulted, and regardless of any
ADDITIONAL meanings the term may have.

For what it's worth, your explanation is also WRONG; the term PC
began to be popularly used in the United States to describe
Intel-based Microsoft machines when there was a proliferation of other
kinds of personal computers available to consumers. When it was first
used this way, the IBM PC was *NOT* the most popular personal computer...
the Commodore 64 was.

True, but PC is IBM's marketing term, thus it originally belongs to
them. Nevertheless, it is NOT Window's marketing term and the literal
meaning of Personal Computer is in no way means Windows-based
computers ONLY.

It dates from a time when the Commodore VIC-20
and C64, Atari 400 and 800, Timex Sinclair, and other computers were
all very popluar home machines.

But they aren't called PC, why? Because IBM hasn't invented the term.
Nowadays, they might be called as PC or not depending on which side
are you in: "PC as IBM-PC" or "PC as personal computer" (note the
lower case)

The term probably originated primarily because IBM chose to name their
computer the IBM PC, and because of Americans' predeliction to
abbreviate everything that's more than 2 syllables. ;-)

It wasn't something that Apple started; it's been used this way
in increasingly common usage for at least 20 years, although
exactly what combination of hardware and software was being
refered to as a "PC" has evolved over that timeframe.

Apple popularizes the term by explicit marketing,

And here is the last point you are missing: Apple does no such
thing.

They did, by using the term PC to refer to other computers. IF they
have used the term "Regular PC", noone would have complained, it's
just like an apple farmer advertising his "Super Apples" and calls
other apples "Regular Apples", there would be nothing wrong about it.
But there is this specific apple farmer who advertised his apple as
"Orange" and calls other apples as "Apples", which makes a problem
since "Orange" is just a different variants of apple, and is still an
apple. This kind of advertising Apple (the computer company) used is
misleading, since it implied that their PC is not a PC.

They are only using a term in a way that has previously been
popularized by the computer industry as a whole, and its market (i.e.
consumers, predominantly American consumers historically) for
*DECADES*.

If I'm not mistaken, their ad campaign mentioning PCs is
less than 10 years old (though I can't quickly find any references as
to the date). The popularization of the term PC to refer to
Intel-compatible machines running Microsoft OSes PREDATES APPLE'S AD
CAMPAIGN BY OVER 10 YEARS.

When did I say that Apple was the first one to start the term's
misuse? Apple's is only making the term's misuse more widespread,
nevertheless they might be the largest computer company that tried to
_actively_ spread its misuse by persistently using the term in their
ads in that manner. But even without Apple, yes, it is true that the
misuse would still get widespread, simply because of Microsoft's
dominance.

Therefore none of your points are valid or relevant, as to the
question of whether the usage of the term "PC" to describe windows
builds of Python is appropriate.

Because you are missing all the points.

Can we return to the subject of Python now?

yes, in short, don't use PCBuild to refer Windows-only build. PCBuild
should contain a universal build that is compatible with all platforms
a PC is usually based on (i.e. it shouldn't exist except if such thing
is possible).

[Michael.Coll-Barth]

From: Derek Martin

The term "PC" is commonly used in
English, in the United States and other English speaking countries, to
mean a computer running Microsoft Windows.

That isn't quite true.

My kids are heading off to college and are in the market for laptops.
The question they had for the salesman was if there was anything other
than Vista available. I was so proud. His response was that they no
longer bother with XP. Another customer suggested that they look at
Apple and another customer suggested dual booting it with Ubuntu ( why
not Fedora? ). I was shocked when I asked if either were in the field.
Nope, a mechanic and doctor.

While it might have been true that PCs were becoming synonymous with
Windows boxes, I think that tide is heading back the other way.
Particularly when I hear that the Apple boxes are becoming very popular
as they work better with iPods and iPhones than does Windows.


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[Derek Martin]

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 02:47:31PM -0700, Lie wrote:

Common usage isn't always correct.

Actually it is, inherently... When usage becomes common, the language
becomes redefined, and its correctness is therefore true by identity
(to borrow a mathematical term). The scholars complain for a while,
but eventually capitulate, and re-write the dictionary. Language
bends to its use by the people, not the other way around. Your
assumption is the opposite, and therefore all of your argument is
false.

For example, a physicist would not use weight when he meant mass.
much, but in technical environment doing so would embarrass him. In
this analogy, I consider download page for a software source code to
be a technical area.

Your analogy is still broken. The term "PC" has been used BY
TECHNCIAL PEOPLE, IN A TECHNICAL CONTEXT, to mean Microsoft on Intel,
FOR DECADES.

+ Authors of technical books, manuals, and other forms of
documentation have refered to them as PCs... for decades.

+ Educators in CS and EE at major universities have refer to them as
PCs, since at least as early as 1988 (when I started college).

+ Industry news publications such as Computer World have refered to
them as PCs, for decades.

+ There are even whole magazines dedicated to them! (PC Magazine, PC
Shopper, PC World, PC Gamer, etc.) They are dedicated to Microsoft
on Intel, and have existed (at least in some cases) long before
Apple started talking about PCs in their ads.

All of this has been going on, essentially since there has been such
a thing as the IBM PC. I'm sorry, but you sir, are quite simply,
plainly, and completely, wrong. With a catastrophic amount of
written documentation, written by technical people in the computer
industry over the last 20+ years, to prove it.

Apple popularizes the term by explicit marketing,

And here is the last point you are missing: Apple does no such
thing.

They did, by using the term PC to refer to other computers.

APPLE CAN NOT POPULARIZE A TERM WHICH IS ALREADY POPULAR.

This kind of advertising Apple (the computer company) used is
misleading, since it implied that their PC is not a PC.

They haven't implied anything; they're stating it outright! Apple
sells personal computers, but they do not sell PCs. Apple's personal
computer is NOT a PC, and never was, and never will be. It's an
Apple.

--
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D
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[Lie Ryan]

On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 18:50 -0400, Derek Martin wrote:

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 02:47:31PM -0700, Lie wrote:

Common usage isn't always correct.

Actually it is, inherently... When usage becomes common, the language
becomes redefined, and its correctness is therefore true by identity
(to borrow a mathematical term). The scholars complain for a while,
but eventually capitulate, and re-write the dictionary. Language
bends to its use by the people, not the other way around. Your
assumption is the opposite, and therefore all of your argument is
false.

But until the dictionary is rewritten, it is incorrect usage. Since
dictionary isn't rewritten unless (nearly) the whole world agrees with
it, not all parts of the world used the term PC exclusively for
Windows-based computer, in this part of the world specifically, PC is
used for any desktop computers. Therefore your argument is false (at
least: yet).

For example, a physicist would not use weight when he meant mass.
much, but in technical environment doing so would embarrass him. In
this analogy, I consider download page for a software source code to
be a technical area.

Your analogy is still broken. The term "PC" has been used BY
TECHNCIAL PEOPLE, IN A TECHNICAL CONTEXT, to mean Microsoft on Intel,
FOR DECADES.

Yes, and they are wrong on using it. So do some physicist, before the
clear distinction is drawn explicitly between mass and weight.

FOR DECADES, people used the term PC for all sorts of things, in the
most technically correct usage, only IBM-branded home computers could be
called a PC, since PC is officially their advertising term. However,
since Personal Computer is a brand-neutral term (unlike iMac, Lifebook,
etc), it have the tendency to be extended (by the people) to include
other personally owned computers as well. The technically correct
extension would be "PC is computers that is designed and marketed for
personal possession and use", which means it doesn't matter what OS it
is, what hardware it uses. A debate (or a long observation to the
people) might be needed to determine whether that definition extension
is acceptable, but the definition extension you mentioned: "PC is
Windows-based computer" needs no debate, it is completely wrong and is a
baseless misunderstanding.

+ Authors of technical books, manuals, and other forms of
documentation have refered to them as PCs... for decades.

+ Educators in CS and EE at major universities have refer to them as
PCs, since at least as early as 1988 (when I started college).

I'm sure they were mentioning IBM-PC and its clones, not mentioning
Windows itself. (Well, it's true that IBM-PC and its clones is mostly
Windows-based, but PC is a term for the combination of hardware and
software that makes a personal computer, in the current incorrect usage,
PC is Windows, a software.)

+ Industry news publications such as Computer World have refered to
them as PCs, for decades.

+ There are even whole magazines dedicated to them! (PC Magazine, PC
Shopper, PC World, PC Gamer, etc.) They are dedicated to Microsoft
on Intel, and have existed (at least in some cases) long before
Apple started talking about PCs in their ads.

Excuse me, those magazines (at least in this part of the world) also
contain non-Microsoft articles. The fact that Windows articles is the
dominant topic, is solely because most of their subscribers are Windows
user, it is not as profitable to write about Linux and Mac and Unix.

All of this has been going on, essentially since there has been such
a thing as the IBM PC. I'm sorry, but you sir, are quite simply,
plainly, and completely, wrong.

Compounded with misunderstanding, you sir, are very well ignorant.

With a catastrophic amount of
written documentation, written by technical people in the computer
industry over the last 20+ years, to prove it.

Apple popularizes the term by explicit marketing,
>
And here is the last point you are missing: Apple does no such
thing.

They did, by using the term PC to refer to other computers.

APPLE CAN NOT POPULARIZE A TERM WHICH IS ALREADY POPULAR.

Sure it catches the wave that has been going on for some time. And use
it to their own advantage. I've mentioned that Apple could not be blamed
so much for this, since with or without them, the term would become
popular, although its meaning mightn't have been as twisted as nowadays.

This kind of advertising Apple (the computer company) used is
misleading, since it implied that their PC is not a PC.

They haven't implied anything; they're stating it outright! Apple
sells personal computers, but they do not sell PCs. Apple's personal
computer is NOT a PC, and never was, and never will be. It's an
Apple.

Apple's personal computer is NOT a PC? Aren't you contradicting
yourself? Just like what Apple, you have just said: "I'm Apple, I'm a
personal computer, but I'm not a personal computer." Completely
nonsense.

Last, probably my strongest argument: "If the folder has been called
WinBuild/WindowsBuild, there is no need for arguments. PC as Windows is
an arguable usage, Windows as Windows is not arguable."

||||
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____
/ \
| 2c |
\____/
_________

[Ross Ridge]

Dennis Lee Bieber <wl*****@ix.netcom.comwrote:

> It gets even worse... No Windows-based "PC" has ever used the
"PowerPC" processor -- which had been a staple of the Macintosh before
they went Intel...

Actually the were personal computers sold using PowerPC processors that
ran Windows NT. I even remember seeing one that had ISA slots.

Ross Ridge

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rr****@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //

[Derek Martin]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 08:19:05PM +0700, Lie Ryan wrote:

But until the dictionary is rewritten, it is incorrect usage.

That's complete nonsense, much like the rest of your argument. People
use words all the time that aren't even IN a dictionary. Their
absence from any dictionary makes them no less capable of conveying
meaning. The dictionary does not define language; humans do, through
their every-day use of words.

Dictionaries record how words are commonly used, and are written by
stubborn, pedantic old men with nothing better to do than sit around
their oak desks debating the meaning of words... meanwhile the rest of
the just USE words to communicate our ideas. Dictionaries are like
technical documentation: written with the best of intentions, and
mostly accurate at the time of writing, but out of date by the time
they are published. [No offense meant to dictionary writers... I
mostly fit that description myself, excepting that I am not quite yet
an "old" man.]

FOR DECADES, people used the term PC for all sorts of things,

I never said they didn't. That also is completely irrelevant. It's
still the case that "PC" is commonly (these days MOST commonly, by
far, at least in the US where all this technology was invented and
named) used to refer to Intel-compatible hardware running a Microsoft
OS. That fact, by itself, justifies the use in this case and any
other. This is the very nature of language.

Apple's personal computer is NOT a PC? Aren't you contradicting
yourself?

No, of course I'm not.

Just like what Apple, you have just said: "I'm Apple, I'm a
personal computer, but I'm not a personal computer." Completely
nonsense.

Yes, I agree: what you wrote is complete nonsense. Only that isn't
what I said at all. I said Apple isn't a PC. The term "PC" and the
term "personal computer" are separate and distinct. One has only 2
letters, the other has 16 letters in two words. The latter ONLY means
a (non-specific) computer designed for personal use. The former can
mean that, though that usage is far less common than the one I was
using: an Intel compatible personal computer on which Microsoft
operating systems run. The software industry has been marketing
titles as "For PC" since the creation of the IBM PC, and did not stop
doing so when other PC-compatibles arrived on the scene, nor even when
IBM stopped making them. So what did they mean by "PC" after IBM
stopped making them? They meant, very clearly, that their software
was intended for Intel-compatible hardware running a Microsoft OS.

Does that mean that PC hardware running Linux is not a PC? Of course
not -- except when the term is used in a context where it does mean
exactly that. ;-)

Last, probably my strongest argument: "If the folder has been called
WinBuild/WindowsBuild, there is no need for arguments. PC as Windows is
an arguable usage, Windows as Windows is not arguable."

There is no need for arguments now! The only reason there are
arguments now is because a few stubborn people irrationally refuse to
accept the term "PC" as it is most commonly used in modern English,
as has been the case for most of my lifetime. Finally, the person who
named the build can call it whatever they want... that's one of the
perks of creating something: you get to name it. They could have
called it "VanillaIceCreamBuild" or "Vinny'sSkankyHoBuild" -- it's
their choice what to call it. The name of a thing need not reflect
its purpose, orientation, meaning, or any other concrete or abstract
property of the thing. It's just a name.

Look, I've already said I don't like the term, and in fact I think
that eventually, as PC hardware (and the software that runs on it)
continues to evolve, it's going to become problematic. Except that it
won't: when it becomes a problem, English-speaking humans will invent
a new word to describe the class of computers they're discussing.
That is how language works.

But in the mean time, we have no other word to refer to the class of
hardware that is based on Intel chipsets and is designed specifically
to be compatible with Microsoft Windows (or indeed running said
Windows). We need a word to distinguish this class of machines from
Apple computers (which ironically now also use Intel, but are still
clearly distinct from PCs, partially because they mainly run Windows),
Sun computers, SGI computers, etc. The term "PC" has been relegated
to that role, and the fact is that the vast majority of those
computers run Windows today. It's also a fact that the overwhelming
majority of English-speaking humans commonly use the term "PC" to mean
what I've said (and also other similar things).

Your complaints and arguments about alternate meanings of "PC" are
irrelevant, pointless, and futile. Even if the maintainers are
convinced to change the name, it does not change the fact that the
term will continue to be used that way by millions of humans, nor that
they are not wrong for doing so, since it is a well-established term
in the computer industry as well as the common population, and has
been since long before Apple started using it that way. And it does
not change the fact that you (and others like you) are being stubborn
by refusing to accept that simple truth. If you're unable to see that
by now, I don't imagine there's anything I can do to help you, so I
give up trying to convince you. [...and there was much rejoicing.]

--
Derek D. Martin
http://www.pizzashack.org/
GPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D
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