Tuples part 2

victor.herasme

Hi Everyone,

i have another question. What if i wanted to make n tuples, each with
a list of coordinates. For example :
coords = list()
for h in xrange(1,11,1):
for i in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for j in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for k in xrange(1,2,1) :
coords.append((i,j,k))
lista+str(h)= tuple coords
print tuple(coords)
so that i will have tuple1, tuple2,..., tupleN, etc. I am trying to do
it the way i show you above but it is not working properly. I wish you
could help me with that. Thanks again,

Jun 27 '08 #1

bearophileHUGS

victor.hera...@gmail.com:

Do you mean something like this? (notice the many formatting
differences, use a formatting similar to this one in your code)

coords = []

for i in xrange(1, 5):
for j in xrange(1, 5):
for k in xrange(1, 2):
coords.append( (i, j, k) )

coords *= 10
print coords

Bye,
bearophile

Jun 27 '08 #2

Ivan Illarionov

On 5 ÉÀÎ, 01:57, "victor.hera...@gmail.com" <victor.hera...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Hi Everyone,

i have another question. What if i wanted to make n tuples, each with
a list of coordinates. For example :

coords = list()
for h in xrange(1,11,1):
for i in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for j in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for k in xrange(1,2,1) :
coords.append((i,j,k))
lista+str(h)= tuple coords
print tuple(coords)

so that i will have tuple1, tuple2,..., tupleN, etc. I am trying to do
it the way i show you above but it is not working properly. I wish you
could help me with that. Thanks again,

>>from itertools import repeat, izip
coords = tuple((i,j,k) for i in xrange(1,5) for j in xrange(1,5) for kin xrange(1,2))
locals().update(("tuple%s" % i, coord) for i, coord in izip(xrange(1,11), repeat(coords)))
tuple1

((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1), (2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1), (2,
3, 1), (2
, 4, 1), (3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1), (4, 1, 1), (4, 2,
1), (4, 3
, 1), (4, 4, 1))

Does this help?

But I don't understand why you need this?

Ivan

Jun 27 '08 #3

victor.herasme

On Jun 5, 3:49 pm, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 ÉÀÎ, 01:57, "victor.hera...@gmail.com" <victor.hera...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Hi Everyone,

i have another question. What if i wanted to make n tuples, each with
a list of coordinates. For example :

coords = list()
for h in xrange(1,11,1):
for i in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for j in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for k in xrange(1,2,1) :
coords.append((i,j,k))
lista+str(h)= tuple coords
print tuple(coords)

so that i will have tuple1, tuple2,..., tupleN, etc. I am trying to do
it the way i show you above but it is not working properly. I wish you
could help me with that. Thanks again,

>from itertools import repeat, izip
coords = tuple((i,j,k) for i in xrange(1,5) for j in xrange(1,5) fork in xrange(1,2))
locals().update(("tuple%s" % i, coord) for i, coord in izip(xrange(1,11), repeat(coords)))
tuple1

((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1), (2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1), (2,
3, 1), (2
, 4, 1), (3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1), (4, 1, 1), (4, 2,
1), (4, 3
, 1), (4, 4, 1))

Does this help?

But I don't understand why you need this?

Ivan

Hi,

What i need is, for example:

tuple 1=((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1))

tuple 2=((2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1), (2, 3, 1), (2, 4, 1))

tuple 3=((3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1))

and so on. Please help me and sorry for not taking the time to post my
questions properly.

Victor

Jun 27 '08 #4

Ivan Illarionov

On 5 июн, 18:19, "victor.hera...@gmail.com" <victor.hera...@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Jun 5, 3:49 pm, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 ÉÀÎ, 01:57, "victor.hera...@gmail.com" <victor.hera....@gmail.com>
wrote:

Hi Everyone,

i have another question. What if i wanted to make n tuples, each with
a list of coordinates. For example :

coords = list()
for h in xrange(1,11,1):
for i in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for j in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for k in xrange(1,2,1) :
coords.append((i,j,k))
lista+str(h)= tuple coords
print tuple(coords)

so that i will have tuple1, tuple2,..., tupleN, etc. I am trying to do
it the way i show you above but it is not working properly. I wish you
could help me with that. Thanks again,
>>from itertools import repeat, izip
>>coords = tuple((i,j,k) for i in xrange(1,5) for j in xrange(1,5) for k in xrange(1,2))
>>locals().update(("tuple%s" % i, coord) for i, coord in izip(xrange(1,11), repeat(coords)))
>>tuple1

((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1), (2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1), (2,
3, 1), (2
, 4, 1), (3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1), (4, 1, 1), (4, 2,
1), (4, 3
, 1), (4, 4, 1))

Does this help?

But I don't understand why you need this?

Ivan

Hi,

What i need is, for example:

tuple 1=((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1))

tuple 2=((2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1), (2, 3, 1), (2, 4, 1))

tuple 3=((3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1))

and so on. Please help me and sorry for not taking the time to post my
questions properly.

Victor

>>coords = [(i, tuple((i,j,k) for j in range(1,5) for k in range(1,2))) for i in range(1,5)]
locals().update(("tuple_%s" % i, coord) for i, coord in coords)
tuple_1

((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1))

>>tuple_2

((2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1), (2, 3, 1), (2, 4, 1))

>>tuple_3

((3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1))
Is this what you want?

Ivan

Jun 27 '08 #5

Ivan Illarionov

On 5 июн, 18:19, "victor.hera...@gmail.com" <victor.hera...@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Jun 5, 3:49 pm, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 ÉÀÎ, 01:57, "victor.hera...@gmail.com" <victor.hera....@gmail.com>
wrote:

Hi Everyone,

i have another question. What if i wanted to make n tuples, each with
a list of coordinates. For example :

coords = list()
for h in xrange(1,11,1):
for i in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for j in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for k in xrange(1,2,1) :
coords.append((i,j,k))
lista+str(h)= tuple coords
print tuple(coords)

so that i will have tuple1, tuple2,..., tupleN, etc. I am trying to do
it the way i show you above but it is not working properly. I wish you
could help me with that. Thanks again,
>>from itertools import repeat, izip
>>coords = tuple((i,j,k) for i in xrange(1,5) for j in xrange(1,5) for k in xrange(1,2))
>>locals().update(("tuple%s" % i, coord) for i, coord in izip(xrange(1,11), repeat(coords)))
>>tuple1

((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1), (2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1), (2,
3, 1), (2
, 4, 1), (3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1), (4, 1, 1), (4, 2,
1), (4, 3
, 1), (4, 4, 1))

Does this help?

But I don't understand why you need this?

Ivan

Hi,

What i need is, for example:

tuple 1=((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1))

tuple 2=((2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1), (2, 3, 1), (2, 4, 1))

tuple 3=((3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1))

and so on. Please help me and sorry for not taking the time to post my
questions properly.

Victor

Or even so:

locals().update(("tuple_%s" % i, tuple((i,j,k) for j in range(1,5) for
k in range(1,2))) for i in range(1,5))
Ivan

Jun 27 '08 #6

Ivan Illarionov

On 5 июн, 18:56, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 июн, 18:19, "victor.hera...@gmail.com" <victor.hera...@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Jun 5, 3:49 pm, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 ÉÀÎ, 01:57, "victor.hera...@gmail.com" <victor.hera...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Hi Everyone,

i have another question. What if i wanted to make n tuples, each with
a list of coordinates. For example :

coords = list()
for h in xrange(1,11,1):
for i in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for j in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for k in xrange(1,2,1) :
coords.append((i,j,k))
lista+str(h)= tuple coords
print tuple(coords)

so that i will have tuple1, tuple2,..., tupleN, etc. I am trying to do
it the way i show you above but it is not working properly. I wish you
could help me with that. Thanks again,
>from itertools import repeat, izip
>coords = tuple((i,j,k) for i in xrange(1,5) for j in xrange(1,5)for k in xrange(1,2))
>locals().update(("tuple%s" % i, coord) for i, coord in izip(xrange(1,11), repeat(coords)))
>tuple1

((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1), (2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1), (2,
3, 1), (2
, 4, 1), (3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1), (4, 1, 1), (4, 2,
1), (4, 3
, 1), (4, 4, 1))

Does this help?

But I don't understand why you need this?

Ivan

Hi,

What i need is, for example:

tuple 1=((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1))

tuple 2=((2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1), (2, 3, 1), (2, 4, 1))

tuple 3=((3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1))

and so on. Please help me and sorry for not taking the time to post my
questions properly.

Victor

Or even so:

locals().update(("tuple_%s" % i, tuple((i,j,k) for j in range(1,5) for
k in range(1,2))) for i in range(1,5))

Ivan

Tried to make it readable:

def iter_coords(i):
for j in xrange(1,5):
for k in xrange(1,2):
yield i, j, k

def iter_vars():
for i in xrange(1, 5):
yield "tuple_%s" % i, tuple(iter_coords(i))

locals().update(dict(iter_vars()))

>>tuple_1

((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1))

>>tuple_2

((2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1), (2, 3, 1), (2, 4, 1))

>>tuple_3

((3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1))

>>tuple_4

((4, 1, 1), (4, 2, 1), (4, 3, 1), (4, 4, 1))

Ivan

Jun 27 '08 #7

George Sakkis

On Jun 5, 11:21 am, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 июн, 18:56, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 июн, 18:19, "victor.hera...@gmail.com" <victor.hera....@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Jun 5, 3:49 pm, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 ÉÀÎ, 01:57, "victor.hera...@gmail.com" <victor.hera...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Hi Everyone,

i have another question. What if i wanted to make n tuples, each with
a list of coordinates. For example :

coords = list()
for h in xrange(1,11,1):
for i in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for j in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for k in xrange(1,2,1) :
coords.append((i,j,k))
lista+str(h)= tuple coords
print tuple(coords)

so that i will have tuple1, tuple2,..., tupleN, etc. I am trying to do
it the way i show you above but it is not working properly. I wishyou
could help me with that. Thanks again,
>>from itertools import repeat, izip
>>coords = tuple((i,j,k) for i in xrange(1,5) for j in xrange(1,5) for k in xrange(1,2))
>>locals().update(("tuple%s" % i, coord) for i, coord in izip(xrange(1,11), repeat(coords)))
>>tuple1

((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1), (2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1), (2,
3, 1), (2
, 4, 1), (3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1), (4, 1, 1), (4, 2,
1), (4, 3
, 1), (4, 4, 1))

Does this help?

But I don't understand why you need this?

Ivan

Hi,

What i need is, for example:

tuple 1=((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1))

tuple 2=((2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1), (2, 3, 1), (2, 4, 1))

tuple 3=((3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1))

and so on. Please help me and sorry for not taking the time to post my
questions properly.

Victor

Or even so:

locals().update(("tuple_%s" % i, tuple((i,j,k) for j in range(1,5) for
k in range(1,2))) for i in range(1,5))

Ivan

Tried to make it readable:

def iter_coords(i):
for j in xrange(1,5):
for k in xrange(1,2):
yield i, j, k

def iter_vars():
for i in xrange(1, 5):
yield "tuple_%s" % i, tuple(iter_coords(i))

locals().update(dict(iter_vars()))

locals().update() works by accident here because it's in global scope;
it doesn't work within a function.

Use a proper data structure, like a dict or a list, and access each
tuple list as 'tuples[n]' instead of 'tuple_n'.

George

Jun 27 '08 #8

Ivan Illarionov

On 5 июн, 19:38, George Sakkis <george.sak...@gmail.comwrote:

On Jun 5, 11:21 am, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 июн, 18:56, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 июн, 18:19, "victor.hera...@gmail.com" <victor.hera...@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Jun 5, 3:49 pm, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 ÉÀÎ, 01:57, "victor.hera...@gmail.com" <victor..hera...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Hi Everyone,

i have another question. What if i wanted to make n tuples, eachwith
a list of coordinates. For example :

coords = list()
for h in xrange(1,11,1):
for i in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for j in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for k in xrange(1,2,1) :
coords.append((i,j,k))
lista+str(h)= tuple coords
print tuple(coords)

so that i will have tuple1, tuple2,..., tupleN, etc. I am tryingto do
it the way i show you above but it is not working properly. I wish you
could help me with that. Thanks again,
>from itertools import repeat, izip
>coords = tuple((i,j,k) for i in xrange(1,5) for j in xrange(1,5) for k in xrange(1,2))
>locals().update(("tuple%s" % i, coord) for i, coord in izip(xrange(1,11), repeat(coords)))
>tuple1

((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1), (2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1),(2,
3, 1), (2
, 4, 1), (3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1), (4, 1, 1), (4, 2,
1), (4, 3
, 1), (4, 4, 1))

Does this help?

But I don't understand why you need this?

Ivan

Hi,

What i need is, for example:

tuple 1=((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1))

tuple 2=((2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1), (2, 3, 1), (2, 4, 1))

tuple 3=((3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1))

and so on. Please help me and sorry for not taking the time to post my
questions properly.

Victor

Or even so:

locals().update(("tuple_%s" % i, tuple((i,j,k) for j in range(1,5) for
k in range(1,2))) for i in range(1,5))

Ivan

Tried to make it readable:

def iter_coords(i):
for j in xrange(1,5):
for k in xrange(1,2):
yield i, j, k

def iter_vars():
for i in xrange(1, 5):
yield "tuple_%s" % i, tuple(iter_coords(i))

locals().update(dict(iter_vars()))

locals().update() works by accident here because it's in global scope;
it doesn't work within a function.

Use a proper data structure, like a dict or a list, and access each
tuple list as 'tuples[n]' instead of 'tuple_n'.

George

OP wanted variables and I showed him how to do this. I agree that a
list or a dict would be better.

Ivan

Jun 27 '08 #9

George Sakkis

On Jun 5, 11:48 am, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 июн, 19:38, George Sakkis <george.sak...@gmail.comwrote:

On Jun 5, 11:21 am, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 июн, 18:56, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail..comwrote:

On 5 июн, 18:19, "victor.hera...@gmail.com" <victor.hera...@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Jun 5, 3:49 pm, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 ÉÀÎ, 01:57, "victor.hera...@gmail.com" <victor.hera...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Hi Everyone,

i have another question. What if i wanted to make n tuples, each with
a list of coordinates. For example :

coords = list()
for h in xrange(1,11,1):
for i in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for j in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for k in xrange(1,2,1) :
coords.append((i,j,k))
lista+str(h)= tuple coords
print tuple(coords)

so that i will have tuple1, tuple2,..., tupleN, etc. I am trying to do
it the way i show you above but it is not working properly. I wish you
could help me with that. Thanks again,
>>from itertools import repeat, izip
>>coords = tuple((i,j,k) for i in xrange(1,5) for j in xrange(1,5) for k in xrange(1,2))
>>locals().update(("tuple%s" % i, coord) for i, coord in izip(xrange(1,11), repeat(coords)))
>>tuple1

((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1), (2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1), (2,
3, 1), (2
, 4, 1), (3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1), (4, 1, 1), (4, 2,
1), (4, 3
, 1), (4, 4, 1))

Does this help?

But I don't understand why you need this?

Ivan

Hi,

What i need is, for example:

tuple 1=((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1))

tuple 2=((2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1), (2, 3, 1), (2, 4, 1))

tuple 3=((3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1))

and so on. Please help me and sorry for not taking the time to post my
questions properly.

Victor

Or even so:

locals().update(("tuple_%s" % i, tuple((i,j,k) for j in range(1,5) for
k in range(1,2))) for i in range(1,5))

Ivan

Tried to make it readable:

def iter_coords(i):
for j in xrange(1,5):
for k in xrange(1,2):
yield i, j, k

def iter_vars():
for i in xrange(1, 5):
yield "tuple_%s" % i, tuple(iter_coords(i))

locals().update(dict(iter_vars()))

locals().update() works by accident here because it's in global scope;
it doesn't work within a function.

Use a proper data structure, like a dict or a list, and access each
tuple list as 'tuples[n]' instead of 'tuple_n'.

George

OP wanted variables and I showed him how to do this. I agree that a
list or a dict would be better.

Ivan

Generating variable names at runtime doesn't work for locals and it is
a bad solution for globals in 99.9% of the cases. It is usually more
helpful to point someone who can't even express his problem clearly to
the right direction, rather than taking his pseudocode literally and
coming up with a semi-working translation.

George

Jun 27 '08 #10

Ivan Illarionov

On 5 июн, 21:22, George Sakkis <george.sak...@gmail.comwrote:

On Jun 5, 11:48 am, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 июн, 19:38, George Sakkis <george.sak...@gmail.comwrote:

On Jun 5, 11:21 am, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 июн, 18:56, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 июн, 18:19, "victor.hera...@gmail.com" <victor..hera...@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Jun 5, 3:49 pm, Ivan Illarionov <ivan.illario...@gmail.comwrote:

On 5 ÉÀÎ, 01:57, "victor.hera...@gmail.com" <victor.hera...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Hi Everyone,

i have another question. What if i wanted to make n tuples, each with
a list of coordinates. For example :

coords = list()
for h in xrange(1,11,1):
for i in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for j in xrange(1, 5, 1) :
for k in xrange(1,2,1) :
coords.append((i,j,k))
lista+str(h)= tuple coords
print tuple(coords)

so that i will have tuple1, tuple2,..., tupleN, etc. I am trying to do
it the way i show you above but it is not working properly. I wish you
could help me with that. Thanks again,
>from itertools import repeat, izip
>coords = tuple((i,j,k) for i in xrange(1,5) for j in xrange(1,5) for k in xrange(1,2))
>locals().update(("tuple%s" % i, coord) for i, coord in izip(xrange(1,11), repeat(coords)))
>tuple1

((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1), (2, 1, 1), (2, 2,1), (2,
3, 1), (2
, 4, 1), (3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1), (4, 1, 1), (4, 2,
1), (4, 3
, 1), (4, 4, 1))

Does this help?

But I don't understand why you need this?

Ivan

Hi,

What i need is, for example:

tuple 1=((1, 1, 1), (1, 2, 1), (1, 3, 1), (1, 4, 1))

tuple 2=((2, 1, 1), (2, 2, 1), (2, 3, 1), (2, 4, 1))

tuple 3=((3, 1, 1), (3, 2, 1), (3, 3, 1), (3, 4, 1))

and so on. Please help me and sorry for not taking the time to post my
questions properly.

Victor

Or even so:

locals().update(("tuple_%s" % i, tuple((i,j,k) for j in range(1,5)for
k in range(1,2))) for i in range(1,5))

Ivan

Tried to make it readable:

def iter_coords(i):
for j in xrange(1,5):
for k in xrange(1,2):
yield i, j, k

def iter_vars():
for i in xrange(1, 5):
yield "tuple_%s" % i, tuple(iter_coords(i))

locals().update(dict(iter_vars()))

locals().update() works by accident here because it's in global scope;
it doesn't work within a function.

Use a proper data structure, like a dict or a list, and access each
tuple list as 'tuples[n]' instead of 'tuple_n'.

George

OP wanted variables and I showed him how to do this. I agree that a
list or a dict would be better.

Ivan

Generating variable names at runtime doesn't work for locals and it is
a bad solution for globals in 99.9% of the cases. It is usually more
helpful to point someone who can't even express his problem clearly to
the right direction, rather than taking his pseudocode literally and
coming up with a semi-working translation.

George

Understanding of how to create variables dynamically can be good for
OP's learning curve even though it's a bad solution in this particular
case.

I agree that it was my mistake to not point him in the right
direction.

Ivan

Jun 27 '08 #11