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Re: Psyco alternative

On Mar 27, 4:44 pm, Jean-Paul Calderone <exar...@divmod.comwrote:
PyPy is self-hosted and has been for some time (a year or so?).
This is technically not correct. PyPy is hosted by RPython, which is
not Python but a different language all together.


Jun 27 '08 #1
8 1239
sturlamolden wrote:
On Mar 27, 4:44 pm, Jean-Paul Calderone <exar...@divmod.comwrote:
>PyPy is self-hosted and has been for some time (a year or so?).

This is technically not correct. PyPy is hosted by RPython, which is
not Python but a different language all together.
I believe, without the benefit of recent experience, that the R stands
for Restricted. Thus and RPython program must of necessity also be a
valid Python program. Or do you know something I don't?

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/

Jun 27 '08 #2
On Apr 25, 2:15 am, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.comwrote:
I believe, without the benefit of recent experience, that the R stands
for Restricted. Thus and RPython program must of necessity also be a
valid Python program. Or do you know something I don't?
That is correct. But RPython is not anything like Python, I would not
even call it a dynamically typed language. It is actually more like
Fortran 77 with a Python look and feel.
Jun 27 '08 #3
sturlamolden wrote:
On Apr 25, 2:15 am, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.comwrote:
>I believe, without the benefit of recent experience, that the R stands
for Restricted. Thus and RPython program must of necessity also be a
valid Python program. Or do you know something I don't?

That is correct. But RPython is not anything like Python, I would not
even call it a dynamically typed language. It is actually more like
Fortran 77 with a Python look and feel.
That seems a little harsh: it's Python-in-a-strait-jacket.

The fact remains that since RPython programs also run under the standard
interpreter (albeit a factor of maybe a hundred times more slowly) their
claim of self-hosting is valid.

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/

Jun 27 '08 #4
On Apr 25, 3:27 am, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.comwrote:
That seems a little harsh: it's Python-in-a-strait-jacket.

The fact remains that since RPython programs also run under the standard
interpreter (albeit a factor of maybe a hundred times more slowly) their
claim of self-hosting is valid.
What is the smallest subset of Python needed to make a Turing complete
computer language? And would you still call that Python?

Jun 27 '08 #5
sturlamolden wrote:
On Apr 25, 3:27 am, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.comwrote:
>That seems a little harsh: it's Python-in-a-strait-jacket.

The fact remains that since RPython programs also run under the standard
interpreter (albeit a factor of maybe a hundred times more slowly) their
claim of self-hosting is valid.

What is the smallest subset of Python needed to make a Turing complete
computer language? And would you still call that Python?
That's completely irrelevant. Let's just step back a bit. You started
this by saying:
On Mar 27, 4:44 pm, Jean-Paul Calderone <exar...@divmod.comwrote:
PyPy is self-hosted and has been for some time (a year or so?).

This is technically not correct. PyPy is hosted by RPython, which is
not Python but a different language all together.
I am simply pointing out that RPython is used for efficiency, not to do
things that can't be done in standard Python. Since everything that is
done in RPython can also be done, albeit more slowly, in standard
Python, the claim to be self-hosting is valid despite your disagreement.

In other words, you can take the PyPy translator and run it on CPython.
The fact that they choose to use restricted Python instead in their
"production" system is merely an optimization.

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/

Jun 27 '08 #6
On Apr 25, 4:57 am, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.comwrote:
I am simply pointing out that RPython is used for efficiency, not to do
things that can't be done in standard Python.
Yes. And if we only use a very small subset of Python, it would in
effect be a form of assembly code. Hence my comment about the Turing
complete subset.

Jun 27 '08 #7
sturlamolden wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:57 am, Steve Holden <st...@holdenweb.comwrote:
>I am simply pointing out that RPython is used for efficiency, not to do
things that can't be done in standard Python.

Yes. And if we only use a very small subset of Python, it would in
effect be a form of assembly code. Hence my comment about the Turing
complete subset.
Since you obviously insist on having the last word I promise not to
reply to your next post.

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/

Jun 27 '08 #8
In article <a0**********************************@56g2000hsm.g ooglegroups.com>,
sturlamolden <st**********@yahoo.nowrote:
>On Mar 27, 4:44 pm, Jean-Paul Calderone <exar...@divmod.comwrote:
>PyPy is self-hosted and has been for some time (a year or so?).

This is technically not correct. PyPy is hosted by RPython, which is
not Python but a different language all together.
This is pure FUD! PyPy is written in RPython, which is a pure subset of Python,
designed for writing interpreters in such a way that they can be translated into
source code for a static language and then compiled to machine code.

The translation toolchain, written in Python is used to create a binary image,
which is a full interpreter for the Python language. This binary image can
run the toolchain to generate another, identical binary image, which of course
also is a a full interpreter for the Python language.

This makes PyPy self hosting in every sense of the word.

The fact that the interpreter is written in RPython and actually runs as an interpreted
program under CPyton or a compiled PyPy is a useful implementation detail, adding
yet another aspect of self hosting that is not present in other systems that claim
to be self hosting.

PyPy btw, is alive and well. Work is progressing along 3 major fronts. One is supporting
real world applications, where we recently added support for ctypes and where we
are working on ensuring that a number of popular modules and frameworks run under PyPy.
Another major undertaking has been to improve execution speed without the JIT. We can
report that we are faster than CPython on some benchmarks, while slower on others. On the
average, I'd say that we still have some catching up to do. The third avenue that
is being pursued is the JIT. While a huge refactoring has been finished and the
results look very good, there are still many months of work to do before the
JIT can be used in production.

Jacob Hallén

--
Jun 27 '08 #9

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