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Where do they tech Python officialy ?

P: n/a
Hi,

I want to be a professional python programmer, unfortunately I'm
working on technical support and don't have the time/patience to start
making projects my self. I tried to apply to some Python positions but
unfortunately sometimes to work as a programmer is really hard in this
world, every employee requires professional experience and you can't
really start as a beginner..

I'm planning to save some money and attend a course in any of the
universities that teach hard core Python.

Does some one have any suggestions on which University to attend ?
Alternatives solutions are welcome..

Regards,
Nicolas G.

Jul 23 '07 #1
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33 Replies


P: n/a
My school does damn near all of the main ones.. BUT python .. lame..

On 7/23/07, NicolasG <ni******@gmail.comwrote:
Hi,

I want to be a professional python programmer, unfortunately I'm
working on technical support and don't have the time/patience to start
making projects my self. I tried to apply to some Python positions but
unfortunately sometimes to work as a programmer is really hard in this
world, every employee requires professional experience and you can't
really start as a beginner..

I'm planning to save some money and attend a course in any of the
universities that teach hard core Python.

Does some one have any suggestions on which University to attend ?
Alternatives solutions are welcome..

Regards,
Nicolas G.

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Jul 23 '07 #2

P: n/a
On Jul 23, 11:52 am, NicolasG <nicol...@gmail.comwrote:
>
Does some one have any suggestions on which University to attend ?
Alternatives solutions are welcome..
You might like this thread. Or go to comp.lang.python and search for
"python taught in schools"

http://tinyurl.com/2zlsxl

rd

Jul 23 '07 #3

P: n/a
In article <11**********************@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups. com>,
NicolasG <ni******@gmail.comwrote:
>Hi,

I want to be a professional python programmer, unfortunately I'm
working on technical support and don't have the time/patience to start
making projects my self. I tried to apply to some Python positions but
unfortunately sometimes to work as a programmer is really hard in this
world, every employee requires professional experience and you can't
really start as a beginner..

I'm planning to save some money and attend a course in any of the
universities that teach hard core Python.

Does some one have any suggestions on which University to attend ?
Alternatives solutions are welcome..
Jul 23 '07 #4

P: n/a
http://home.earthlink.net/~python-training/

I highly recommend Mark Lutz. Took the class last fall in Estes Park
and it was worth every penny.

Jul 23 '07 #5

P: n/a
NicolasG wrote:
....
I'm planning to save some money and attend a course in any of the
universities that teach hard core Python.

Does some one have any suggestions on which University to attend ?
In Canada, the University of Toronto is planning to switch all
first-year Comp-Sci courses to Python this September. Last I heard the
University of Waterloo allowed Python submissions for most assignments
in most courses. But those are "learn hard-core computer science using
Python" solutions, not "learn hard-core Python" solutions.

If you really want to learn hard-core Python, probably your best bet is:

* read everything Tim Peters has ever written in comp.lang.python
(this will take a few months), start with "import this"
* read everything the PyPy guys have ever written (particularly
Christian and Armin)
* read and try to beat the more exotic recipes in the Python cookbook
* read the papers from the various PyCons on metaclasses and the
like, build a couple of dozen metaclasses and descriptors

But jumping into "hardcore" first might not be the best approach. Many
would suggest just learning "normal" Python first, *then* moving onto
the hardcore stuff.

HTH,
Mike

--
________________________________________________
Mike C. Fletcher
Designer, VR Plumber, Coder
http://www.vrplumber.com
http://blog.vrplumber.com

Jul 23 '07 #6

P: n/a
NicolasG <ni******@gmail.comwrites:
Does some one have any suggestions on which University to attend ?
Alternatives solutions are welcome..
If you have a good programming background in other languages, you
should easily be able to pick up Python by reading the manual.

If you don't have a programming background and want to acquire one
through a university program, then it doesn't matter that much what
language the university uses, since if it's not Python, after
completing the program you'll still be able to easily pick up Python
by reading the manual.
If you're having trouble with Python because you're new at
programming, I can sympathize--I don't think it's the most
beginner-friendly of languages despite the efforts in that direction
by the designers. But once you understand the principles of
programming, Python is easy.

I think Python is not used in university programs very much. Look for
one that uses SICP (Scheme) or CTM (Mozart/Oz) or a functional
language like Haskell, in preference to the ones that use Java (the
Cobol of the 1990's). With some reasonable experience in Scheme or
Mozart or Haskell, plus a Python manual, you'll be well on your way.

The SICP textbook is here:

http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/

Maybe it's gotten a little bit old fashioned by now, but it's still
good reading.
Jul 24 '07 #7

P: n/a
If you have a good programming background in other languages, you
should easily be able to pick up Python by reading the manual.
Dear all, thank you for your info. I forgot to mention that I already
know how to program in Python (basic), my knowledge derives from a
very good level of C (University level) and I have use python to build
some pages in Zope plus some minor programs I created..

The problem is that I would like to work as a Python programmer but
all the job vacancies I can find requires a couple of years of
professional experience ... that I don't have. How a wanna be
programmer can start working as a programmer if there is no chance to
start from somewhere ? That's the reason I created this topic.

Jul 24 '07 #8

P: n/a
NicolasG a écrit :
Hi,

I want to be a professional python programmer,
While there are (more and more) professional programmers using Python,
either as their main language or not, there's no such thing as a
"professional Python programmer", because being a proofessional
programmer requires much more than knowing one programming language.
unfortunately I'm
working on technical support and don't have the time/patience to start
making projects my self. I tried to apply to some Python positions but
unfortunately sometimes to work as a programmer is really hard in this
world, every employee requires professional experience
You surely won't get any position as a programmer if you don't have any
experience as a programmer. But it doesn't necessarily has to be
"professional" experience - being a contributor to a serious OSS project
is nowadays considered as valid experience by some shops.
and you can't
really start as a beginner..
Yes you can - obviously, everyone has to start somewhere !-) But being a
beginner doesn't mean having strictly no experience - just that you
didn't get paid so far.
I'm planning to save some money and attend a course in any of the
universities that teach hard core Python.

Does some one have any suggestions on which University to attend ?
Alternatives solutions are welcome..
Don't focus on Python. The important part is to learn programming - once
you'll be there, learning Python by yourself won't be a problem. And I
second Paul Rubin's advice: avoid universities teaching Java as the main
language.
Jul 24 '07 #9

P: n/a
NicolasG <ni******@gmail.comwrites:
The problem is that I would like to work as a Python programmer but
all the job vacancies I can find requires a couple of years of
professional experience ... that I don't have. How a wanna be
programmer can start working as a programmer if there is no chance to
start from somewhere ? That's the reason I created this topic.
Why would you want to become a programmer? Programmers smell bad,
they have no social life, they get treated like crap by everyone.
They can get paid pretty well but then they spend all the money on
useless electronic junk so they still live like bums. There is only
one reason to be a programmer, which is that the drive to program
burns in you like a fire. But in that case don't ask how to become a
programmer, because you are already one, so welcome to the ranks ;-).
Jul 24 '07 #10

P: n/a
Paul Rubin napisa³(a):
>The problem is that I would like to work as a Python programmer but
all the job vacancies I can find requires a couple of years of
professional experience ... that I don't have. How a wanna be
programmer can start working as a programmer if there is no chance to
start from somewhere ? That's the reason I created this topic.

Why would you want to become a programmer? Programmers smell bad,
they have no social life, they get treated like crap by everyone.
They can get paid pretty well but then they spend all the money on
useless electronic junk so they still live like bums. There is only
one reason to be a programmer, which is that the drive to program
burns in you like a fire. But in that case don't ask how to become a
programmer, because you are already one, so welcome to the ranks ;-).
+1 QOTW

--
Jarek Zgoda
Skype: jzgoda | GTalk: zg***@jabber.aster.pl | voice: +48228430101

"We read Knuth so you don't have to." (Tim Peters)
Jul 24 '07 #11

P: n/a
Why would you want to become a programmer? Programmers smell bad,
they have no social life, they get treated like crap by everyone.
They can get paid pretty well but then they spend all the money on
useless electronic junk so they still live like bums.
I wouldn't call this person programmer , I would call him a geek ;)
one reason to be a programmer, which is that the drive to program
burns in you like a fire. But in that case don't ask how to become a
programmer, because you are already one, so welcome to the ranks ;-).
Yes true , I'm already a programmer.. doing technical support for my
company products in a call center. I hate my job, I hate the moment I
have to wake up to go work ! I hate that moment I have to go sleep
when I think of the next working day morning.
Python is what I like, I would love to be more creative with this
language and be able to produce things that I can't right now..
Why not try to find a work that you would like ? I don't want to work
as a programmer to became one because I'm already a programmer, I just
want to work as a programmer ..
Jul 24 '07 #12

P: n/a
On Jul 24, 6:57 am, NicolasG <nicol...@gmail.comwrote:
Why would you want to become a programmer? Programmers smell bad,
they have no social life, they get treated like crap by everyone.
They can get paid pretty well but then they spend all the money on
useless electronic junk so they still live like bums.

I wouldn't call this person programmer , I would call him a geek ;)
one reason to be a programmer, which is that the drive to program
burns in you like a fire. But in that case don't ask how to become a
programmer, because you are already one, so welcome to the ranks ;-).

Yes true , I'm already a programmer.. doing technical support for my
company products in a call center. I hate my job, I hate the moment I
have to wake up to go work ! I hate that moment I have to go sleep
when I think of the next working day morning.
Python is what I like, I would love to be more creative with this
language and be able to produce things that I can't right now..
Why not try to find a work that you would like ? I don't want to work
as a programmer to became one because I'm already a programmer, I just
want to work as a programmer ..
You sound like Peter from "Office Space." Each day is the worst day of
his life. Hypnotherapy...Python. What's the difference :-)

Jul 24 '07 #13

P: n/a
On 2007-07-24, Paul Rubin <httpwrote:
I think Python is not used in university programs very much.
Look for one that uses SICP (Scheme) or CTM (Mozart/Oz) or a
functional language like Haskell, in preference to the ones
that use Java (the Cobol of the 1990's). With some reasonable
experience in Scheme or Mozart or Haskell, plus a Python
manual, you'll be well on your way.

The SICP textbook is here:

http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/

Maybe it's gotten a little bit old fashioned by now, but it's
still good reading.
The only weakness I'm aware of is how well it suits its original
target audience--engineers who need an introduction to computer
science. If your aren't an engineer, I might recommend _How to
Design Programs_ (http://www.htdp.org/), or _Concrete Abstractions_
(http://gustavus.edu/+max/concrete-abstractions.html) instead.

One cool advantage of SICP is the free online lectures, which
helps make up for its non-programmer slant.
http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/classes/...sman-lectures/

--
Neil Cerutti
Jul 24 '07 #14

P: n/a
In article <11*********************@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups. com>,
NicolasG <ni******@gmail.comwrote:
Jul 24 '07 #15

P: n/a
On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 10:48:10PM -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:
If you're having trouble with Python because you're new at
programming, I can sympathize--I don't think it's the most
beginner-friendly of languages despite the efforts in that direction
by the designers.
Just curious--what language would you recommend as most
beginner-friendly?

My previous programming experience was with BASIC--and I think it is
true that BASIC will, in many ways, rot your brain. I had used QBasic
and, later, a little VBA and some PHP. It took some time to unlearn some
bad things (object orientation in VBA seems to be mostly a hack, for
example, while PHP seems to be a big hack generally) but it seems to me
that Python helped me learn my first modern programming language.
I think Python is not used in university programs very much. Look for
one that uses SICP (Scheme) or CTM (Mozart/Oz) or a functional
language like Haskell, in preference to the ones that use Java (the
Cobol of the 1990's). With some reasonable experience in Scheme or
Mozart or Haskell, plus a Python manual, you'll be well on your way.
I had heard of these languages, but learning them is a bit discouraging
because (Java excepted) they don't seem to get much practical use.

In college I had a programming course that used C++. Big mistake in my
view, and we didn't learn much in the way of true principles (in
retrospect it would have been nice if they had us use GCC rather than
Borland on Windows.)

Jul 28 '07 #16

P: n/a
On 2007-07-28, Omari Norman <om***@smileystation.comwrote:
On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 10:48:10PM -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:
>If you're having trouble with Python because you're new at
programming, I can sympathize--I don't think it's the most
beginner-friendly of languages despite the efforts in that direction
by the designers.

Just curious--what language would you recommend as most
beginner-friendly?
I recommend the symbolic logo-like Scheme used in _Simply
Scheme_. It works with sentences and words polymorphically.

(first smith)
s

(first '(smith jones cooper))
smith

The books exercises revolve around writing functions like
pig-latin, reverse, palindrom?, and other word and sentence
manipulations. Real Scheme primitives are not introduced until
lots of programming ideas have been conveyed.

http://www.amazon.com/Simply-Scheme-.../dp/0262082810
In college I had a programming course that used C++. Big
mistake in my view, and we didn't learn much in the way of true
principles (in retrospect it would have been nice if they had
us use GCC rather than Borland on Windows.)
I can imagine a course using C++ that taught basic programming
concepts; it would teach the rudiments of using the STL to start,
and work with vectors, lists and maps. See _Accelerated C++_ for
a great example.

But most C++ courses start with the lowest level functionality of
C++, soon embroiling inexperienced programmers with the
difficulties of manual dynamic memory management. That's a big
side-show.

--
Neil Cerutti
Jul 28 '07 #17

P: n/a
Omari Norman <om***@smileystation.comwrites:
Just curious--what language would you recommend as most
beginner-friendly?
I'm not sure what to suggest, I don't pay much attention to this
area. Maybe Logo?
With some reasonable experience in Scheme or
Mozart or Haskell, plus a Python manual, you'll be well on your way.
I had heard of these languages, but learning them is a bit discouraging
because (Java excepted) they don't seem to get much practical use.
I wouldn't worry about that. It's like saying it's discouraging to
learn in engineering class how to solve problems involving frictionless
pulleys because you can't buy those in practice. The idea in each of
the above cases is to strip the problem to its bare essentials for
study. Dealing with real-world complications can come later.
Jul 28 '07 #18

P: n/a
Omari Norman a écrit :
On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 10:48:10PM -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:

>>If you're having trouble with Python because you're new at
programming, I can sympathize--I don't think it's the most
beginner-friendly of languages despite the efforts in that direction
by the designers.


Just curious--what language would you recommend as most
beginner-friendly?
C ?-)

(sorry, just kidding.)
My previous programming experience was with BASIC--and I think it is
true that BASIC will, in many ways, rot your brain.
So will Java.

I learned programming with Hypertalk (MacIntosh's Hypercard scripting
language, which more or less gave birth to AppleTalk), then RealBasic
(Mac's Better VB-like), then VB, then Java, then C, then bits of Pascal,
then Python, and this is where I started to see the light. But I had
hard time unlearning all those java-ish anal-retentive stupidities and
arbitrary overcomplexifications before I really enjoyed Python. Playing
with Lisp (Common Lisp and Scheme) and Smalltalk helped getting rid of
mental pollution wrt/ declarative static typing. To be honest, playing
with Haskell and O'Caml also helped me understanding that static typing
is not necessarily bad by itself.
I had used QBasic
and, later, a little VBA and some PHP. It took some time to unlearn some
bad things (object orientation in VBA seems to be mostly a hack, for
example, while PHP seems to be a big hack generally)
Well... this is not exactly a scoop !-)
but it seems to me
that Python helped me learn my first modern programming language.

>>I think Python is not used in university programs very much. Look for
one that uses SICP (Scheme) or CTM (Mozart/Oz) or a functional
language like Haskell, in preference to the ones that use Java (the
Cobol of the 1990's). With some reasonable experience in Scheme or
Mozart or Haskell, plus a Python manual, you'll be well on your way.


I had heard of these languages, but learning them is a bit discouraging
because (Java excepted) they don't seem to get much practical use.
Before considering practical use (FWIW, Python was pretty far from
mainstream 7 year ago), you should ask yourself how learning one of
these languages will affect the way you thing about programming. While
mostly in the imperative/OO camp, Python stole quite a lot from
functional languages, and this is obviously a GoodThing(tm).

My 2 cents
Jul 31 '07 #19

P: n/a
MIT's freshman survey, EECS 1 is taught in Python and Scheme, soon to be
just Python.

-Star

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007, Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
Omari Norman a écrit :
>On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 10:48:10PM -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:

>>If you're having trouble with Python because you're new at
programming, I can sympathize--I don't think it's the most
beginner-friendly of languages despite the efforts in that direction
by the designers.


Just curious--what language would you recommend as most
beginner-friendly?

C ?-)

(sorry, just kidding.)
>My previous programming experience was with BASIC--and I think it is
true that BASIC will, in many ways, rot your brain.

So will Java.

I learned programming with Hypertalk (MacIntosh's Hypercard scripting
language, which more or less gave birth to AppleTalk), then RealBasic
(Mac's Better VB-like), then VB, then Java, then C, then bits of Pascal,
then Python, and this is where I started to see the light. But I had
hard time unlearning all those java-ish anal-retentive stupidities and
arbitrary overcomplexifications before I really enjoyed Python. Playing
with Lisp (Common Lisp and Scheme) and Smalltalk helped getting rid of
mental pollution wrt/ declarative static typing. To be honest, playing
with Haskell and O'Caml also helped me understanding that static typing
is not necessarily bad by itself.
>I had used QBasic
and, later, a little VBA and some PHP. It took some time to unlearn some
bad things (object orientation in VBA seems to be mostly a hack, for
example, while PHP seems to be a big hack generally)

Well... this is not exactly a scoop !-)
>but it seems to me
that Python helped me learn my first modern programming language.

>>I think Python is not used in university programs very much. Look for
one that uses SICP (Scheme) or CTM (Mozart/Oz) or a functional
language like Haskell, in preference to the ones that use Java (the
Cobol of the 1990's). With some reasonable experience in Scheme or
Mozart or Haskell, plus a Python manual, you'll be well on your way.


I had heard of these languages, but learning them is a bit discouraging
because (Java excepted) they don't seem to get much practical use.

Before considering practical use (FWIW, Python was pretty far from
mainstream 7 year ago), you should ask yourself how learning one of
these languages will affect the way you thing about programming. While
mostly in the imperative/OO camp, Python stole quite a lot from
functional languages, and this is obviously a GoodThing(tm).

My 2 cents
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Jul 31 '07 #20

P: n/a
Star a écrit :
MIT's freshman survey, EECS 1 is taught in Python and Scheme, soon to be
just Python.
they should keep scheme or replace it with another (statically typed ?)
functional language IMHO.

<OT>
please do the world (or at least usenet and mailing lists users) a
favour : learn to answer properly !-)

1/ don't top-post
2/ only keep from the post you're answering waht you're answering to
3/ if possible, answer to the right post (given the content of your
post, you should have answered to the OP, not to me)

Sorry to be the annoying dude here...
</OT>
-Star

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007, Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
>Omari Norman a écrit :
>>On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 10:48:10PM -0700, Paul Rubin wrote:
If you're having trouble with Python because you're new at
programming, I can sympathize--I don't think it's the most
beginner-friendly of languages despite the efforts in that direction
by the designers.
Just curious--what language would you recommend as most
beginner-friendly?

C ?-)

(sorry, just kidding.)
>>My previous programming experience was with BASIC--and I think it is
true that BASIC will, in many ways, rot your brain.

So will Java.

I learned programming with Hypertalk (MacIntosh's Hypercard scripting
language, which more or less gave birth to AppleTalk), then RealBasic
(Mac's Better VB-like), then VB, then Java, then C, then bits of Pascal,
then Python, and this is where I started to see the light. But I had
hard time unlearning all those java-ish anal-retentive stupidities and
arbitrary overcomplexifications before I really enjoyed Python. Playing
with Lisp (Common Lisp and Scheme) and Smalltalk helped getting rid of
mental pollution wrt/ declarative static typing. To be honest, playing
with Haskell and O'Caml also helped me understanding that static typing
is not necessarily bad by itself.
>>I had used QBasic
and, later, a little VBA and some PHP. It took some time to unlearn some
bad things (object orientation in VBA seems to be mostly a hack, for
example, while PHP seems to be a big hack generally)

Well... this is not exactly a scoop !-)
>>but it seems to me
that Python helped me learn my first modern programming language.
I think Python is not used in university programs very much. Look for
one that uses SICP (Scheme) or CTM (Mozart/Oz) or a functional
language like Haskell, in preference to the ones that use Java (the
Cobol of the 1990's). With some reasonable experience in Scheme or
Mozart or Haskell, plus a Python manual, you'll be well on your way.
I had heard of these languages, but learning them is a bit discouraging
because (Java excepted) they don't seem to get much practical use.

Before considering practical use (FWIW, Python was pretty far from
mainstream 7 year ago), you should ask yourself how learning one of
these languages will affect the way you thing about programming. While
mostly in the imperative/OO camp, Python stole quite a lot from
functional languages, and this is obviously a GoodThing(tm).

My 2 cents
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Jul 31 '07 #21

P: n/a
NicolasG <ni******@gmail.comwrote:
...
The problem is that I would like to work as a Python programmer but
all the job vacancies I can find requires a couple of years of
professional experience ... that I don't have. How a wanna be
programmer can start working as a programmer if there is no chance to
start from somewhere ? That's the reason I created this topic.
Open source projects do not require previous professional experience to
accept volunteers. So, one way out of your dilemma is to make a name
for yourself as an open source contributor -- help out with Python
itself and/or with any of the many open source projects that use Python,
and you will both learn a lot _and_ acquire "professional experience"
that any enlightened employer will recognize as such. That will take a
while, but not as long as getting a college degree (and it will be far
cheaper than the degree).
Alex
Jul 31 '07 #22

P: n/a
On Jul 31, 11:37 am, al...@mac.com (Alex Martelli) wrote:
NicolasG <nicol...@gmail.comwrote:

...
The problem is that I would like to work as a Python programmer but
all the job vacancies I can find requires a couple of years of
professional experience ... that I don't have. How a wanna be
programmer can start working as a programmer if there is no chance to
start from somewhere ? That's the reason I created this topic.

Open source projects do not require previous professional experience to
accept volunteers. So, one way out of your dilemma is to make a name
for yourself as an open source contributor -- help out with Python
itself and/or with any of the many open source projects that use Python,
and you will both learn a lot _and_ acquire "professional experience"
that any enlightened employer will recognize as such. That will take a
while, but not as long as getting a college degree (and it will be far
cheaper than the degree).

Alex
Starting this Fall, Michigan State University's computer science
department is moving to Python for its introductory courses. Student's
following the ugrad curriculum will be exposed to both Python (early)
and C++ (later). We feel this gives our students the best of both
worlds: a high level scripting language that is easier to work with
and provides many modules to do actual work, and an efficient, lower
level language for speed and to interface with OS, graphics, networks
etc.

If you want more information, visit the dept. web pages at http://www.cse.msu.edu.
However, and not suprisingly, things are out of date there and will
probably not be up to date till the semester starts. So if you want
something now, please send email to "bill.punch AT gmail.com"

Jul 31 '07 #23

P: n/a
In article <1i*************************@mac.com>,
Alex Martelli <al***@mac.comwrote:
>
Open source projects do not require previous professional experience to
accept volunteers. So, one way out of your dilemma is to make a name
for yourself as an open source contributor -- help out with Python
itself and/or with any of the many open source projects that use Python,
and you will both learn a lot _and_ acquire "professional experience"
that any enlightened employer will recognize as such. That will take a
while, but not as long as getting a college degree (and it will be far
cheaper than the degree).
Ayup. My current job didn't even bother asking for references, largely
because my boss knew me from the Python community.
--
Aahz (aa**@pythoncraft.com) <* http://www.pythoncraft.com/

This is Python. We don't care much about theory, except where it intersects
with useful practice.
Jul 31 '07 #24

P: n/a
Open source projects do not require previous professional experience to
accept volunteers. So, one way out of your dilemma is to make a name
for yourself as an open source contributor -- help out with Python
itself and/or with any of the many open source projects that use Python,
and you will both learn a lot _and_ acquire "professional experience"
that any enlightened employer will recognize as such. That will take a
while, but not as long as getting a college degree (and it will be far
cheaper than the degree).

Alex
I think this is the best idea to escape the python amateur circle and
go in to open source project that are considered to be professional
projects. I don't know if it will be better to find a project to
contribute or to start a new one .. Will have a look around and think
about.

Aug 1 '07 #25

P: n/a
al***@mac.com (Alex Martelli) wrote in news:1i23wyk.avc945i4dwsiN%
al***@mac.com:
NicolasG <ni******@gmail.comwrote:
...
>The problem is that I would like to work as a Python programmer but
all the job vacancies I can find requires a couple of years of
professional experience ... that I don't have. How a wanna be
programmer can start working as a programmer if there is no chance to
start from somewhere ? That's the reason I created this topic.

Open source projects do not require previous professional experience
to
accept volunteers. So, one way out of your dilemma is to make a name
for yourself as an open source contributor -- help out with Python
itself and/or with any of the many open source projects that use
Python,
and you will both learn a lot _and_ acquire "professional experience"
that any enlightened employer will recognize as such.
It depends :-). In my experience I met employers being concerned by my
implication in the oss world :-).
That will take a
while, but not as long as getting a college degree (and it will be far
cheaper than the degree).
I don't know much about the open community in Python world, but in Java
world becoming a project member may be more difficult than getting a
degree (or close to :-)) ).

bests,
../alex
--
..w( the_mindstorm )p.

Aug 1 '07 #26

P: n/a
On July 23, NicolasG wrote:
I want to be a professional python programmer...
unfortunately sometimes to work as a programmer is really hard in this
world, every employee requires professional experience and you can't
really start as a beginner..
On July 24, NicolasG wrote:
Python is what I like, I would love to be more creative with this
language and be able to produce things that I can't right now..
Why not try to find a work that you would like ? I don't want to work
as a programmer to became one because I'm already a programmer, I just
want to work as a programmer ..
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "I'm already a programmer"
if you can't get jobs because you're a beginner. That sounds a bit
like "I'm a surgeon, except that I haven't done any surgery just yet."

I also don't understand the concept on choosing a university depending
on whether they use a particular language in their courses. I think it's
a good idea with a good academic education, but whether Python is part
of that is really a minor issue. The most important part of education
for people who are going to work as programmers is advanced mathematics!
That's what will teach you logic and systematic problem solving.

Learning Python is a very small and easy part in learning to develop
software in a professional way. There are no silver bullets. You won't
find a language or a university course that will "fix" things for you.

The world (and your job) is full of problems waiting to be solved.
Solve them with Python, use your spare time if you're ambitious and
don't get the opportunity to use working hours. Use the internet to
find ideas and libraries etc. Doing this will make work more fun, if
you are talented enough it will make you much more productive, you
should be appreciated for the improvements you achieve, and you will
build up a portfolio of software and solutions that you can show a
prospective employer.

If I'm hiring a consultant for a few weeks, prior Python experience
might be an issue, but if I employ someone, I don't care whether they
already know Python. I expect them to know a few languages well.
I assert that they are capable of applying a programming language to
solve problems swiftly and intelligently, and I'm pretty sure they
pick up Python quickly.
Aug 1 '07 #27

P: n/a
NicolasG <ni******@gmail.comwrote:
Open source projects do not require previous professional experience to
accept volunteers. So, one way out of your dilemma is to make a name
for yourself as an open source contributor -- help out with Python
itself and/or with any of the many open source projects that use Python,
and you will both learn a lot _and_ acquire "professional experience"
that any enlightened employer will recognize as such. That will take a
while, but not as long as getting a college degree (and it will be far
cheaper than the degree).

Alex

I think this is the best idea to escape the python amateur circle and
go in to open source project that are considered to be professional
projects. I don't know if it will be better to find a project to
contribute or to start a new one .. Will have a look around and think
about.
Unless you have some specific new idea that you're keen to address and
can't be met by existing projects, joining an existing project would
normally be a better bet. One-person projects are rarely as important
as larger ones, and it's quite hard to get other collaborators to a new
project; working in a project with existing code and contributors will
also be more instructive. As for which OS projects are "considered to
be professional", just about all large successful ones are so
considered: after all, even games, say, are "professional projects" from
the POV of firms that develop and sell them, such as EA!-)
Alex
Aug 1 '07 #28

P: n/a
Alex Popescu <no*****************@gmail.comwrote:
...
and you will both learn a lot _and_ acquire "professional experience"
that any enlightened employer will recognize as such.

It depends :-). In my experience I met employers being concerned by my
implication in the oss world :-).
Considering that even the King of Proprietary Software, Microsoft, now
happily hires major Open Source figures such as Jim Hugunin (MS was also
a top-tier sponsor at the recent OSCON, with both managerial and senior
technical employees giving keynotes and tech talks), it boggles the mind
to think about which kind of company would instead be "concerned" by a
candidate's OS experience.

That will take a
while, but not as long as getting a college degree (and it will be far
cheaper than the degree).

I don't know much about the open community in Python world, but in Java
world becoming a project member may be more difficult than getting a
degree (or close to :-)) ).
In a major project, you will of course have to supply useful
contributions as well as proving to have a reasonable personality &c
before being granted committer privileges; and a few projects (centered
on a group of committers employed by a single firm or on an otherwise
close-knit small clique) are not very open to the outside world at all.
But (at least wrt projects using Python, C, C++ -- I have no experience
of opensource projects focused on Java instead) that is the exception,
not the rule.
Alex
Aug 1 '07 #29

P: n/a
Ant
On Aug 1, 9:40 am, Alex Popescu <nospam.themindst...@gmail.comwrote:
....
It depends :-). In my experience I met employers being concerned by my
implication in the oss world :-).
I have the opposite experience. It was predominantly the fact that I
was involved in several open source projects that got me into
professional development 3 years ago. The employers in the market at
the time required 2 years+ of commercial experience - the fact that I
was involved in OSS helped on two counts, firstly that it showed that
I actually have an interest in development (rather than being another
Comp Sci graduate just after a wage), and secondly that I have
experience in good development practice (the open source projects I
worked on had better infrastructure in place than two of the three
companies I've worked for since!)

--
Ant...

http://antroy.blogspot.com/
Aug 1 '07 #30

P: n/a
Alex Popescu a écrit :
al***@mac.com (Alex Martelli) wrote in news:1i23wyk.avc945i4dwsiN%
al***@mac.com:

>>NicolasG <ni******@gmail.comwrote:
...
>>>The problem is that I would like to work as a Python programmer but
all the job vacancies I can find requires a couple of years of
professional experience ... that I don't have. How a wanna be
programmer can start working as a programmer if there is no chance to
start from somewhere ? That's the reason I created this topic.

Open source projects do not require previous professional experience

to
>>accept volunteers. So, one way out of your dilemma is to make a name
for yourself as an open source contributor -- help out with Python
itself and/or with any of the many open source projects that use
Python,
and you will both learn a lot _and_ acquire "professional experience"
that any enlightened employer will recognize as such.


It depends :-). In my experience I met employers being concerned by my
implication in the oss world :-).
These are the ones you don't wan't to work for anyway !-)
Aug 1 '07 #31

P: n/a
al***@mac.com (Alex Martelli) wrote in news:1i25pjo.1mo5uqc1yxqsjkN%
al***@mac.com:
Alex Popescu <no*****************@gmail.comwrote:
...
and you will both learn a lot _and_ acquire "professional
experience"
that any enlightened employer will recognize as such.

It depends :-). In my experience I met employers being concerned by
my
>implication in the oss world :-).

Considering that even the King of Proprietary Software, Microsoft, now
happily hires major Open Source figures such as Jim Hugunin (MS was
also
a top-tier sponsor at the recent OSCON, with both managerial and
senior
technical employees giving keynotes and tech talks), it boggles the
mind
to think about which kind of company would instead be "concerned" by a
candidate's OS experience.

Have you seen/heard of Jim lately? Cause I haven't. By the time he was
the lead of the AspectJ team his charismatic presence was everywhere (at
least around that project).
However I do agree with you. The only remark is that US trends are not
hitting my part of Eu so quickly ;-) (things are indeed changing).
These are the ones you don't wan't to work for anyway !-)
Well... this is sometimes debatable :-).

bests,
../alex
--
..w( the_mindstorm )p.

Aug 2 '07 #32

P: n/a
Alex Popescu <no*****************@gmail.comwrote:
...
Have you seen/heard of Jim lately? Cause I haven't. By the time he was
the lead of the AspectJ team his charismatic presence was everywhere (at
least around that project).
He wasn't at OSCON this year, but I hope to see him at Pycon next year.
I don't see this as a deep dark M$ plot to kidnap and hide the best and
brightest Open Sourcers, because I know what it means to get a wonderful
challenging new job and pour all you have into it (I've had to skip a
couple Pycons, myself, though I hope to be back next year).

However I do agree with you. The only remark is that US trends are not
hitting my part of Eu so quickly ;-) (things are indeed changing).
About 3 years ago I was also getting sick and tired about my own part of
the EU, which is part of why I emigrated:-). I do see things getting
better in Southern Europe, albeit from a distance.

These are the ones you don't wan't to work for anyway !-)

Well... this is sometimes debatable :-).
A totally clueless employer may still be a way to make some quick and
dirty money right now, but it will barely be enough to pay for the extra
Maalox and Zantac you'll need. Looking back on your life when you're
closer to retirement than to when you started working, you'll see what a
mistake it was to accept clueless-employers' offers, and how much
happier your life would have been if you'd known that up front:-).
Alex
Aug 2 '07 #33

P: n/a
al***@mac.com (Alex Martelli) wrote in news:1i26u6o.pthuan2j7nufN%
al***@mac.com:
Alex Popescu <no*****************@gmail.comwrote:
...
>Have you seen/heard of Jim lately? Cause I haven't. By the time he
was
>the lead of the AspectJ team his charismatic presence was everywhere
(at
>least around that project).

He wasn't at OSCON this year, but I hope to see him at Pycon next
year.
I don't see this as a deep dark M$ plot to kidnap and hide the best
and
brightest Open Sourcers, because I know what it means to get a
wonderful
challenging new job and pour all you have into it (I've had to skip a
couple Pycons, myself, though I hope to be back next year).
I wasn't trying to imply that (maybe just as a joke ;-)). It was more a
personal curiosity.
>
>However I do agree with you. The only remark is that US trends are
not
>hitting my part of Eu so quickly ;-) (things are indeed changing).

About 3 years ago I was also getting sick and tired about my own part
of
the EU, which is part of why I emigrated:-). I do see things getting
better in Southern Europe, albeit from a distance.
Guess we both know the feeling then.
>
These are the ones you don't wan't to work for anyway !-)

Well... this is sometimes debatable :-).

A totally clueless employer may still be a way to make some quick and
dirty money right now, but it will barely be enough to pay for the
extra
Maalox and Zantac you'll need. Looking back on your life when you're
closer to retirement than to when you started working, you'll see what
a
mistake it was to accept clueless-employers' offers, and how much
happier your life would have been if you'd known that up front:-).
He he... been there done that :-). Escaped only with couple of Maalox,
though :-).

bests,
../alex
--
..w( the_mindstorm )p.
>
Alex

Aug 2 '07 #34

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