windev vs python SOS

[stéphane bard]

hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.
I have to argue

- python work on multiple platform (linux, mac, windows)
A good point but it didn't interest him. Because
we want to choose a language for prototyping.
So multi platform is not enough.

- python and windev are fast to develop

- windev as a good IDE, python? boa-constructor is ok with wxpython

- python is open source (that's not an argument for my boss, sorry
it's a boss ...)

any idea for a strong argument ?

[John Henry]

I don't know what windev is but presonally, I found Python to be
incredibly productive.

BTW: I recommend that you look into PythonCard. It sits on top of
wxpython and I found it to be a very productive GUI tool.

stéphane bard wrote:

hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.
I have to argue

- python work on multiple platform (linux, mac, windows)
A good point but it didn't interest him. Because
we want to choose a language for prototyping.
So multi platform is not enough.

- python and windev are fast to develop

- windev as a good IDE, python? boa-constructor is ok with wxpython

- python is open source (that's not an argument for my boss, sorry
it's a boss ...)

any idea for a strong argument ?

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

stéphane bard wrote:

hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.

Find another job.

(I'm serious. I've 2+ years of pain with Windev, and if your boss is
clueless enough to believe all the marketing crap from PCSoft's droids,
you really don't want to work for him).

I have to argue

- python work on multiple platform (linux, mac, windows)
A good point but it didn't interest him. Because
we want to choose a language for prototyping.

Python is far better at this than Windev - and the "prototype" is
usually quite usable.

So multi platform is not enough.

- python and windev are fast to develop

Nope. Windev lets you quickly have a barely usable DB-GUI pipeline, and
then trouble begins. Python, OTHO, really lets you do the job.

- windev as a good IDE, python? boa-constructor is ok with wxpython

Aren't you confusing IDE with RAD ?

>
- python is open source (that's not an argument for my boss, sorry
it's a boss ...)

Python is free. And being a boss doesn't necessarily imply being stupid.

any idea for a strong argument ?

My own argument would be "it's Python or it's without me" <g>

More seriously: since you're in a Window-only shop, portability may not
be a strong argument. But Python is also very good at Windows-specific
stuff (COM etc) - and is widely used by Windows programmers (at least in
France). FWIW, you may want to post this on fclpy too - there are some
"hard-core" Windows developpers there...
You can also point your boss to IronPython - if MS puts some money on
it, it can't be a bad tool, isn't it ?-)

--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'o****@xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

John Henry wrote:

I don't know what windev is

A french (highly proprietary) so-called "CASE-Tool" with a so-called
"5th generation language" (lol) that is mostly a dumbed-down mix of
basic and pascal. It's so bad that it makes you regret VB6.
--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'o****@xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"

[Steve Holden]

stéphane bard wrote:

hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.
I have to argue

- python work on multiple platform (linux, mac, windows)
A good point but it didn't interest him. Because
we want to choose a language for prototyping.
So multi platform is not enough.

- python and windev are fast to develop

- windev as a good IDE, python? boa-constructor is ok with wxpython

- python is open source (that's not an argument for my boss, sorry
it's a boss ...)

any idea for a strong argument ?

You might argue that Python allows much better integration with other
Windows functionality: see Robinson & Hammond's "Python Programming on
Win32", and mention IronPython.

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden [phone] [phone]
Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com
Skype: holdenweb http://holdenweb.blogspot.com
Recent Ramblings http://del.icio.us/steve.holden

[Sebastian Kaliszewski]

stéphane bard wrote:

hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.
I have to argue

- python work on multiple platform (linux, mac, windows)
A good point but it didn't interest him. Because
we want to choose a language for prototyping.
So multi platform is not enough.

- python and windev are fast to develop

- windev as a good IDE, python? boa-constructor is ok with wxpython

- python is open source (that's not an argument for my boss, sorry
it's a boss ...)

any idea for a strong argument ?

Python is widely known and tested, windev is not. Stuff not widely used (and
thus not well verified by Real World(tm)) is a Big Business Risk(tm). Things
looking pretty on marketing presentations might show its ugly head in Real
Life(tm) where Real Money(tm) is at stake (and in fact they do in vast
majority of cases).

Python is widely known and has Good Track Record(tm). Windev has not.

Python is known to integrate well into Windows. Is your boss really sure
that windev is good there? How about various corner cases?

Does your boss know about .net? Tell him about IronPython (If Microsoft
thinks its good, why your boss should not?). If your boss thinks .net is
crap and Java rules, tell him about Jython.

It's relatively easy to find (hire) Python programmers. It's not true in
case of windev programmers. If your boss needs more people or some people
leave (and thus must be replaced), it's a Real Cost(tm) to train new people
new windev tricks. Is your boss willing to take the risk that new people
will need 1-2 months to get fluent with windev (as he may well forget about
hiring trained windev developer in a reasonable amount of time, while hiring
trained python developer is possible).
rgds
--
Sebastian Kaliszewski

[MC]

Bonjour !

Comme tu es français, tu me coprendras.

Alors :
- windev est fermé, et protégé par des dongles. Résultat : dongle
perdu, en panne, ou volé, il faut racheter une licence (c'est arrivé à
un ami)
- le langage de windev est beaucoup moins évolué que Python. Et,
quand je dis beaucoup, c'est faible... Python a des possibilités
énormes en programmation procédurale, en Orienté Objet, et, même, en
programmation fonctionnelle.
- la structure interne de Python est extraordinaire. Vraiment.
- Python est très facile à apprendre. Il existe beaucoup de
ressources, même en français, sur Internet, dans des livres, etc.
- Python est un langage stable, avec très très peu de bugs/problèmes.
Sur ce point, windev marque sérieusement le pas. Sur certains forums
consacrés à windev, le nombre de bugs signalés était effarant.
- les librairies disponibles pour Python couvrent un spectre beaucoup
plus large que celles disponibles pour windev
- les bases de données intégrées à windev sont issues du vieux moteur
"hyperfile", beaucoup trop limité. Avec Python, on peut choisir le SGBD
que l'on veut, sans trop de soucis. Depuis SQL-lite, jusqu'à Oracle (XE
ou autre), on peut assumer tous les niveaux de puissance nécessaire.
- avec Python, on peut faire du multi-threading, du réparti, des
applications web, consoles, invisibles (services), des serveurs COM,
développer des interfaces, ou en utiliser de toutes prêtes, travailler
sur du réseau, piloter des équipements industriels, etc. etc.
- je n'utilise pas le "libre" comme argument, sauf pour un point : si
pc-soft (éditeur de windev) a, un jour de grosses difficultés, le
produit pourrait bien disparaitre soudainement, ce qui n'est pas le cas
de Python, maintenu par une communauté. Or, il y a peu d'années, cette
boîte a eu, justement, d'importants problèmes financiers.

Le gros point fort de windev, c'est un marketing très agressif.
D'ailleurs, si tu veux manger et boire à l'oeil, va suivre les
présentations.

Avant dernier point : tu aurais pu mettre ton message dans le newsgroup
français sur Python.

Dernier point : si quelqu'un veut traduire ce message, il a mon accord
tout entier.

--
@-salutations

Michel Claveau

[Paddy]

My french is attrocious so I got Michels original post machine
transated.
I liked what Michel was saying, maybe others would like to share:

Hello! As you are French, you will coprendras me. Then: - windev is
closed, and protected by dongles. Result: dongle lost, broken down, or
flown, a licence should be repurchased (it arrived to a friend) - the
language of windev is much less advanced than Python. And, when I say
much, it is weak... Python has enormous possibilities in procedural
programming, in Directed Object, and, even, in functional programming.
- the internal structure of Python is extraordinary. Really. - Python
is very easy to learn. There exists much of resources, even in French,
on Internet, in books, etc. - Python is a stable language, with very
very few bugs/problèmes. On this point, windev mark seriously the
step. On certain forums devoted to windev, the number of bugs announced
was frightening. - the bookshops available for Python cover a spectrum
much broader than those available for windev - the data bases
integrated into windev are from the old engine "hyperfile", too much
limited. With Python, one can choose the DBMS which one wants, without
too concern. Since SQL-lite, until Oracle (XE or other), one can assume
all the levels of power necessary. - with Python, one can make
multi-threading, distributed, Web applications, consoles, invisible
(services), waiters COM, develop interfaces, or of use of all ready,
work on network, control industrial plants, etc etc. - I do not use the
"free one" as argument, except for a point: if PC-SOFTWARE (editor of
windev) has, one day of large difficulties, the product could
disparaitre well suddenly, which is not the case of Python, maintained
by a community. However, few years ago, this box had, precisely, of
financial important problems. The large strong point of windev, it is a
very aggressive marketing. Moreover, if you want to eat and drink with
the eye, will follow the presentations. Before last point: you could
have put your message in the French newsgroup on Python. Last point: if
somebody wants to translate this message, it has my entire agreement.
-- @-greetings Michel Archstone

[jmdeschamps]

MC wrote:

Bonjour !

Comme tu es français, tu me coprendras.

Alors :
- windev est fermé, et protégé par des dongles. Résultat : dongle
perdu, en panne, ou volé, il faut racheter une licence (c'est arrivé à
un ami)
- le langage de windev est beaucoup moins évolué que Python. Et,
quand je dis beaucoup, c'est faible... Python a des possibilités
énormes en programmation procédurale, en Orienté Objet, et, même,en
programmation fonctionnelle.
- la structure interne de Python est extraordinaire. Vraiment.
- Python est très facile à apprendre. Il existe beaucoup de
ressources, même en français, sur Internet, dans des livres, etc.
- Python est un langage stable, avec très très peu de bugs/problèmes.
Sur ce point, windev marque sérieusement le pas. Sur certains forums
consacrés à windev, le nombre de bugs signalés était effarant.
- les librairies disponibles pour Python couvrent un spectre beaucoup
plus large que celles disponibles pour windev
- les bases de données intégrées à windev sont issues du vieux moteur
"hyperfile", beaucoup trop limité. Avec Python, on peut choisir le SGBD
que l'on veut, sans trop de soucis. Depuis SQL-lite, jusqu'à Oracle (XE
ou autre), on peut assumer tous les niveaux de puissance nécessaire.
- avec Python, on peut faire du multi-threading, du réparti, des
applications web, consoles, invisibles (services), des serveurs COM,
développer des interfaces, ou en utiliser de toutes prêtes, travailler
sur du réseau, piloter des équipements industriels, etc. etc.
- je n'utilise pas le "libre" comme argument, sauf pour un point : si
pc-soft (éditeur de windev) a, un jour de grosses difficultés, le
produit pourrait bien disparaitre soudainement, ce qui n'est pas le cas
de Python, maintenu par une communauté. Or, il y a peu d'années, cette
boîte a eu, justement, d'importants problèmes financiers.

Le gros point fort de windev, c'est un marketing très agressif.
D'ailleurs, si tu veux manger et boire à l'oeil, va suivre les
présentations.

Avant dernier point : tu aurais pu mettre ton message dans le newsgroup
français sur Python.

Dernier point : si quelqu'un veut traduire ce message, il a mon accord
tout entier.

--
@-salutations

Michel Claveau

OK, I'll try a very literal translation (if it seems to makes any sense
at all)

Since you're french, you'll understand this.

So,
- windev is closed, and protected by dongles. Result: lost dongle,
or broke, or stolen, you have to get another licence (It happened to a
friend)
- the windev language isn't close to have evolved like Python has.
And by isn't close, I'm putting it weakly.... Python has great
possibilities for procedural programming, Object-Oriented Programming,
and even funxctional programming
- The internal structure of Python is extraordinary. Really.
- Python is very easy to learn. There are a lot of ressources, even
in french, on Internet, in books, etc.
- Python is a stable language, with very, very few bugs/problems
- On that point, windev really hits the mark. On some fora
pertaining to windev, the number of bugs brough up is appalling.
- The available librairies for Python cover a much wider range than
that available for windev.
- the integrated database of windev comes from the very old
"hyperfile" engine, much too limited. With Python, you can choose the
DB you want, without a lot of worry. From SQL-Lite to Oracle (XE or
other), you can assume any level of capacity required.
- With Python, you can do multi-threading, RPCs, web apps, console
apps, invisible (services), COM servers, build interfaces or use
pre-existing ones, work on networking, drive industrial equipment, etc,
etc
- I'm not using that it's "open" as an argument, except for one
point: if pc-soft (producer of windev) has , one day, some sort of big
problem, the product might suddenly disappear, which is not the case of
Python, maintained by a community. And a few years ago, it just
happened to have some important financial problems

The strong suit of windev lies in its agressive marketing.
And so speaking, if you want free food and drink, attend the
demonstrations

Before last point: you could have posted your message to the french
python newsgroup.

And last, if someone wishes to translate this message, he has might
entire agreement

********
And I hope I did an okay job , michel.

Jean-Marc

[aaaWindev]

Hi Bruno,

Let me guess, your favorite book is the "I HATE THE FRENCH OFFICIAL
HANDBOOK". People here deserve a more objective opinion.

Here you can find what WinDev users have to say about WinDev

http://www.windev.com/pcsoft/testimonials/

There are more testimonials here (in french).

http://www.pcsoft.fr/pcsoft/120pages/html/porsche.htm

By the way, Python is a great programming language. What is cool about
WinDev is that the language is closely embedded with the GUI. For
example, to select a line in a browsing table, you may just write:
MyTable = 15 as if MyTable was a variable (it is a powerfull widget
indeed, with searching, sorting, export to Excel, and so on).

--
PatBiker

[MC]

Thank you, Jean-Marc, for translation. I am not capable of this work.

:-)

--
@-salutations

Michel Claveau

[MC]

Thanks.
The essential, is that peoples (& you) can understand. Bbut, perso, I
don't understand the message translated (much unknowed words...)

--
@-salutations

Michel Claveau

[aaaWindev]

Hi Stéphane,

stéphane bard wrote:

hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.
I have to argue

First, no matter how good is Python, you should not desagree with your
boss.
Second, Windew is quite good and fun, you will love it.

--
PatBiker

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

aa*******@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Bruno,

Heck. PC-Soft marketing droids are pursuing us even here now.

Let me guess, your favorite book is the "I HATE THE FRENCH OFFICIAL
HANDBOOK".

je suis français, pauvre semoule.

People here deserve a more objective opinion.

"objective" ? Lol.

Here you can find what WinDev users have to say about WinDev

http://www.windev.com/pcsoft/testimonials/

yes, very objective...

There are more testimonials here (in french).

http://www.pcsoft.fr/pcsoft/120pages/html/porsche.htm

just as objective.

By the way, Python is a great programming language. What is cool about
WinDev is that the language is closely embedded with the GUI.

The one and only "cool" thing about Windev is that I'll never have to
use this piece of shit again.

For
example, to select a line in a browsing table, you may just write:
MyTable = 15 as if MyTable was a variable (it is a powerfull widget
indeed, with searching, sorting, export to Excel, and so on).

Yeah, great. And you forgot to say that it generates the whole
application by itself, and even make coffee for the programmer.

NB : transmitted to gr**********@google.com who will appreciate if OT
commercial adds are welcomes here.

--
PatBiker

--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'o****@xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"

[Kent Johnson]

aa*******@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Stéphane,

stéphane bard wrote:

>hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.
I have to argue

First, no matter how good is Python, you should not desagree with your
boss.
Second, Windew is quite good and fun, you will love it.

Yes, the boss is always right, shut up and drink your Kool-Aid!

;)

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

aa*******@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Stéphane,

stéphane bard wrote:

>hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.
I have to argue

You don't. You're one of the marketing droids from PC-Soft

<ot>
To everyone here : such interventions are a well-known part of PC-Soft
(the company that sells the "product" discussed here) marketing
strategy. We've seen quite a lot of such posts on the windew-users
mailing list and newsgroup.
</ot>

First, no matter how good is Python, you should not desagree with your
boss.

Ho yes ? Even if the boss finally decides that he'd better trust his
team than marketing droids ?

Second, Windew is quite good and fun,

Yes, sooo good and fun. A good and fun unusable clickodrom nightmare
with a good and fun dumbed-down basic as language and a good and fun
indexed sequential file format as "RDBMS".

lol.

you will love it.

I've never met a programmer that "loved" Windev. I've met some
"programmers" that where able to bear with it mostly because they didn't
even knew anything else, but even these guys didn't "love" trying to
make this crap do something useful.

Heck, compared to PC-Soft, one could find that Microsoft's marketing
strategy is based on delivering smart, usable, cleanly debugged products
and being helpful to users...

--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'o****@xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"

[Méta-MCI]

Re-Bonjour !

J'avais écrit, dans le message précédent, que la société PC-Soft avait eu
des difficultés financières, il y a plusieurs années.

Comme je n'ai pas eu l'occasion de vérifier cette information, (et à la
demande de la société PC-Soft), je demande donc aux lecteurs de considérer
cette information comme nulle.

Concentrez-vous sur le reste du message.

@-salutations

Michel Claveau

[aaaWindev]

Hi,

Bruno Desthuilliers a écrit :

I've never met a programmer that "loved" Windev.

I have met some here (I'm the guy with a mustache-just kidding but
actually I was there).

http://www.pcsoft.fr/pcsoft/tdftech/...7-IMG_5853.jpg

WinDev is widely used in France and that's a thing because a lot of
french programmers think that english tools "have to be better".

--
Pat

[John Henry]

Why are they all look so gloomy? I don't see a single smile on their
faces.

:=)
[e-mail] wrote:

Hi,

Bruno Desthuilliers a écrit :

I've never met a programmer that "loved" Windev.

I have met some here (I'm the guy with a mustache-just kidding but
actually I was there).

http://www.pcsoft.fr/pcsoft/tdftech/...7-IMG_5853.jpg

WinDev is widely used in France and that's a thing because a lot of
french programmers think that english tools "have to be better".

--
Pat

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

aa*******@gmail.com wrote:

Hi,

Bruno Desthuilliers a écrit :

>I've never met a programmer that "loved" Windev.

I have met some here (I'm the guy with a mustache-just kidding but
actually I was there).

http://www.pcsoft.fr/pcsoft/tdftech/...7-IMG_5853.jpg

WinDev is widely used in France

"widely used" ? Widely marketed, for sure, but last time I had to find a
job, there where not that much Windev positions (3 in one year in the
fifth french city) - much less than Java or .NET or (whatever your
mainstream language here) - or even PHP/Javascript FWIW. And it was not
better in other major french locations...

(and please avoid us the usual marketing crap - been here, done that)

and that's a thing because a lot of
french programmers think that english tools "have to be better".

I think that's one of the dumbiest thing I've ever read.

Thread's over for me - keeping on polluting this group with anything
related to this crap is a total waste of resources.

--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'o****@xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"

[jmdeschamps]

Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:

aa*******@gmail.com wrote:

Hi,

Bruno Desthuilliers a écrit :

I've never met a programmer that "loved" Windev.

I have met some here (I'm the guy with a mustache-just kidding but
actually I was there).

http://www.pcsoft.fr/pcsoft/tdftech/...7-IMG_5853.jpg

WinDev is widely used in France

"widely used" ? Widely marketed, for sure, but last time I had to find a
job, there where not that much Windev positions (3 in one year in the
fifth french city) - much less than Java or .NET or (whatever your
mainstream language here) - or even PHP/Javascript FWIW. And it was not
better in other major french locations...

(and please avoid us the usual marketing crap - been here, done that)

and that's a thing because a lot of
french programmers think that english tools "have to be better".

I think that's one of the dumbiest thing I've ever read.

Thread's over for me - keeping on polluting this group with anything
related to this crap is a total waste of resources.

--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'o****@xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"

Two things (Well three things) : 1- thanks Tim Golden for translating
the financial thingy!
2- I'm just back from the pc-soft site, and what do you know, I saw a
download menu (for upgrades), went there and was told (Cut'nPaste here)

CAUTION:
To download these modules, you must own a registered copy of WinDev 10
"English" or "International" version. Otherwise, you are not authorized
to download the modules below.
- Now I don't own a copy so it wouldn't be usaful since it's an
upgrade, but you know what? I hate this tone of voice ("you are not
authorized to ...") but that's ok, it just my feelings. So I go to read
testimonials, and wow playmobil, cool stuff - lots of prfetty playmobil
pics too, even 2 screen shots, excepts that even at 300%, you can't
make out what they are about. OK, so I'm a kid at heart - let's go see
the John Deere testi - Nice pics of tractors and such, another
unreadable screen shot... Eh!, think I, this is promotional stuff, so
its *normal* promotional stuff, lets that a look at the beast since
there is a big red "Download TRIAL VERSION" button by the windev 10
paragraph -so I click and get a "To download the WinDev trial version,
please fill the form below: " message, hummm but there is a download
button at the top of the form and then line annoncing optional
infromation, so I click again without filling the info, thank you, so
now I'm downloading windev 8 - that's before I cancel the job... hummm
again, with all the nice people here and elsewhere, at Microsoft, and
Oracle, and Sun ;-) that give out so much to to try and get there
technology known - and I'm NOT talking about the OpenSource region of
the world - It just makes me wonder, why can't you have an opinion and
disagree with your boss ... But then again, maybe your boss wrote those
testimonials on another life!
3-Re-reading some posts of this thread I'll permit myself an ultimate,
if third point:
"...What is cool about WinDev is that the language is closely embedded
with the GUI. " makes for great MVC apps I'm sure.

Jean-Marc

[Wolfgang Keller]

- python work on multiple platform (linux, mac, windows)

A good point but it didn't interest him. Because
we want to choose a language for prototyping.
So multi platform is not enough.

With Python the prototype _is_ the application. You just need to add a little
bit of polishing (exception handling etc.) where required, maybe implement a
speed-critical module in Pyrex, that's it.

And for running a production application, cross-platform-ness _is_ important.
Or what would you do when your customer wants to run his application not just
on Windows, but on an embedded OS like VxWorks, QNX, or a _real_ server OS
such as any proprietary Unix (including MacOS X), Linux, *BSD, OS/400 (or
whatever it is called now), MVS...

Can Windev interface with .net? For Python, there's Python.net (not
Ironpython, that's a different thing).

Can Windev interface with Java? For Python, there's JPype (not Jython, that's
a different thing as well).

Does Windev interface with JMS, Java RMI, SAP RFC, mqseries and other
middleware?

Can you build COM clients and servers in Windev? Can you build Corba clients
and servers in Windev?

Can Windev interface natively with nearly every relational database on the
planet?

Can you easily access any C/C++ library from Windev?

Is Windev code as readable as Python for non-computer scientists?

....

- windev as a good IDE, python? boa-constructor is ok with wxpython

Python for Windows comes with an IDE (PythonWin) iirc. Otherwise there are
plenty of development tools for database applications in Python (not all
mentioned below are free):

Access/Filemaker-like:
- Rekall (Qt)
- Knoda (Qt)
- Kexi (Qt)
- Gemello (GTK)
- Glom (GTK)
....

GUI-Builders:
- Qt Designer
- Glade (GTK)
- Gazpacho (GTK) & Kiwi (application framework)
- wxGlade (wxwidgets)
- DialogBlocks (wxWidgets)
- VisualWx (wxWidgets)
- wxDesigner (wxWidgets)
....

IDEs:
- WingIDE
- Eric3
- SPE
- Komodo
- PyDev (for Eclipse)
- Trustudio (for Eclipse)
- Pythoncard (incl. GUI-Builder)
- Boa Constructor (incl. GUI-Builder)
....

Others:
- GNUe (wxWidgets) (complete framework for enterprise database applications,
including application server etc.)
- TinyERP (GTK) (complete ERP implemented in Python, but if you strip out all
the ERP-specific modules, you get a powerful framework inlcuding a workflow
engine)
- Dabo (wxWidgets) (framework & GUI Builder)
....

- python is open source (that's not an argument for my boss, sorry
it's a boss ...)

The point is that with Python you _can_ have commercial support if you
want/need to. With Windev, as with any other proprietary software, you
_depend_ on the original developer to continue to exist, fix bugs, implement
required functionality...

How anyone can bet the existence of a company on proprietary software in a
time where even multi-billion dollar companys get taken over just to
"consolidate competition" is beyond my scope of comprehension.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang Keller

--
My email-address is correct.
Do NOT remove ".nospam" to reply.

[Amanda]

Can Windev interface with .net? >>>YES

Can Windev interface with Java? >>>YES
Can Windev interface natively with nearly every relational database on the
planet? >>>>>>>YES
Does Windev interface with JMS, Java RMI, SAP RFC, mqseries and other
middleware?>>>>>YES
Can you easily access any C/C++ library from Windev? >>>YES
Is Windev code as readable as Python for non-computer scientists?>>I don't know Python but Wlangage is as readable as free text

I am always amazed when I meet fanatics!!
Links abour Windev for those who like facts :

http://www.windev.com/pcsoft/testimonials/index.html
http://www.pcsoft.fr/annonce10/photos.html
http://www.pcsoft.fr/pcsoft/120pages/index.html
Be cool !!!
A.
Wolfgang Keller wrote:

- python work on multiple platform (linux, mac, windows)
A good point but it didn't interest him. Because
we want to choose a language for prototyping.
So multi platform is not enough.

With Python the prototype _is_ the application. You just need to add a little
bit of polishing (exception handling etc.) where required, maybe implement a
speed-critical module in Pyrex, that's it.

And for running a production application, cross-platform-ness _is_ important.
Or what would you do when your customer wants to run his application not just
on Windows, but on an embedded OS like VxWorks, QNX, or a _real_ server OS
such as any proprietary Unix (including MacOS X), Linux, *BSD, OS/400 (or
whatever it is called now), MVS...

Can Windev interface with .net? For Python, there's Python.net (not
Ironpython, that's a different thing).

Can Windev interface with Java? For Python, there's JPype (not Jython, that's
a different thing as well).

Does Windev interface with JMS, Java RMI, SAP RFC, mqseries and other
middleware?

Can you build COM clients and servers in Windev? Can you build Corba clients
and servers in Windev?

Can Windev interface natively with nearly every relational database on the
planet?

Can you easily access any C/C++ library from Windev?

Is Windev code as readable as Python for non-computer scientists?

...

- windev as a good IDE, python? boa-constructor is ok with wxpython

Python for Windows comes with an IDE (PythonWin) iirc. Otherwise there are
plenty of development tools for database applications in Python (not all
mentioned below are free):

Access/Filemaker-like:
- Rekall (Qt)
- Knoda (Qt)
- Kexi (Qt)
- Gemello (GTK)
- Glom (GTK)
...

GUI-Builders:
- Qt Designer
- Glade (GTK)
- Gazpacho (GTK) & Kiwi (application framework)
- wxGlade (wxwidgets)
- DialogBlocks (wxWidgets)
- VisualWx (wxWidgets)
- wxDesigner (wxWidgets)
...

IDEs:
- WingIDE
- Eric3
- SPE
- Komodo
- PyDev (for Eclipse)
- Trustudio (for Eclipse)
- Pythoncard (incl. GUI-Builder)
- Boa Constructor (incl. GUI-Builder)
...

Others:
- GNUe (wxWidgets) (complete framework for enterprise database applications,
including application server etc.)
- TinyERP (GTK) (complete ERP implemented in Python, but if you strip out all
the ERP-specific modules, you get a powerful framework inlcuding a workflow
engine)
- Dabo (wxWidgets) (framework & GUI Builder)
...

- python is open source (that's not an argument for my boss, sorry
it's a boss ...)

The point is that with Python you _can_ have commercial support if you
want/need to. With Windev, as with any other proprietary software, you
_depend_ on the original developer to continue to exist, fix bugs, implement
required functionality...

How anyone can bet the existence of a company on proprietary software in a
time where even multi-billion dollar companys get taken over just to
"consolidate competition" is beyond my scope of comprehension.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang Keller

--
My email-address is correct.
Do NOT remove ".nospam" to reply.

[Wolfgang Keller]

Links abour Windev for those who like facts :

>
http://www.windev.com/pcsoft/testimonials/index.html
http://www.pcsoft.fr/annonce10/photos.html
http://www.pcsoft.fr/pcsoft/120pages/index.html

Well, it _could_ be that all the readers in comp.lang.python are utterly
braindead morons with entirely dysfunctional sense organs so that they can't
distinguish between 100% subject-matter-free sales promotion cheaptalk and
objective information about "facts" from independent and competent third
parties.

It _could_ be.

Anyway, if I were "PDG" of PC Soft, I would immediately fire their
advertising staff - judging from the "content" of those "facts" they're
totally incapable to produce anything that would actually convince anyone
with an IQ higher than that of an average housefly.

EOD.

--
My email-address is correct.
Do NOT remove ".nospam" to reply.

[Steve Holden]

Wolfgang Keller wrote:

>>Links abour Windev for those who like facts :

http://www.windev.com/pcsoft/testimonials/index.html
http://www.pcsoft.fr/annonce10/photos.html
http://www.pcsoft.fr/pcsoft/120pages/index.html

Well, it _could_ be that all the readers in comp.lang.python are utterly
braindead morons with entirely dysfunctional sense organs so that they can't
distinguish between 100% subject-matter-free sales promotion cheaptalk and
objective information about "facts" from independent and competent third
parties.

It _could_ be.

Anyway, if I were "PDG" of PC Soft, I would immediately fire their
advertising staff - judging from the "content" of those "facts" they're
totally incapable to produce anything that would actually convince anyone
with an IQ higher than that of an average housefly.

EOD.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending how you look at it, there are
plenty of people who can be convinced to buy software based on
completely specious "arguments" and "facts". It's well known that to
succeed in business you need superior marketing first: superior
technology isn't even on the list of essentials, though as Google
clearly demonstrates it can help a lot when used by intelligent people.

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden [phone] [phone]
Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com
Skype: holdenweb http://holdenweb.blogspot.com
Recent Ramblings http://del.icio.us/steve.holden

[Scott David Daniels]

stéphane bard wrote:

hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.
I have to argue

- python work on multiple platform (linux, mac, windows)
A good point but it didn't interest him. Because
we want to choose a language for prototyping.
So multi platform is not enough.

- python and windev are fast to develop

- windev as a good IDE, python? boa-constructor is ok with wxpython

- python is open source (that's not an argument for my boss, sorry
it's a boss ...)

any idea for a strong argument ?

Well, this seems to me like a "Is it faster to New York, or by train"
kind of question. "WinDev" is not a language, Python is. "WinDev" is a
tool which includes a language. At least make sure you are comparing
similar things ("Python and the WinDev language" or "Komodo and WinDev"
or "Idle and WinDev").

Note, I have never been successful with explaining this to any of my
employers that didn't just trust me on these decisions. I have a nasty
habit of saying things like:
"'Visual Basic' is not a language; 'Visual Basic 5.0' is a language
with a vague similarity to the language 'Visual Basic 6.0'."
and:
"SQL is not a language; it is (at best) a family of languages."

While these statements do mean something to experienced programmers,
they seem to contradict everything a power-point wielding IT executive
who understands everything "from a 5000 foot point of view" knows to
be true. I really wish I knew how to explain these things politically.

--Scott David Daniels
sc***********@acm.org

[Jorge Godoy]

Scott David Daniels <sc***********@acm.orgwrites:

While these statements do mean something to experienced programmers,
they seem to contradict everything a power-point wielding IT executive
who understands everything "from a 5000 foot point of view" knows to
be true. I really wish I knew how to explain these things politically.

If you find it out don't forget sharing with us. :-)

--
Jorge Godoy <jg****@gmail.com>

[Ray]

stéphane bard wrote:

hello, my boss ask me to prefer windev to python.
I have to argue

<snip>

any idea for a strong argument ?

* WinDev is a virtual unknown outside France. I tried asking a bunch of
colleagues about WinDev just now. Nobody has even heard about it. Prior
to doing Java I was doing Windows development for years--never a single
time I heard about this thing.

This can be much more significant than you think--there's a huge
difference between developing something in a language that has a lot of
websites, books, forum, etc. dedicated to it, and a proprietary IDE. I
developed using a proprietary product I won't name here for about 2
years... the support was horrible, and the product SUCKS big time.

* Python is known world-wide, there are already many books written by
very, very intelligent people--you can "borrow" their brains anytime
through their books. There are many online resources at your fingertips
if you come across a problem. This group is also chock full of very
smart people, some of whom contribute code to Python itself. Wonder how
much do you have to pay WinDev for support?

(If your boss really doesn't like Python, you might as well use Visual
Basic, since it has a lot of free resources, Microsoft newsgroups, and
so on.)

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Amanda wrote:
(snip)

I am always amazed when I meet fanatics!!

I'm always amazed when I meet PC-Soft's salespersons...

Links abour Windev for those who like facts :

http://www.windev.com/pcsoft/testimonials/index.html
http://www.pcsoft.fr/annonce10/photos.html
http://www.pcsoft.fr/pcsoft/120pages/index.html

"Facts" ? Lol ! It's about as factual as the existence of Saddam
Hussein's mass destruction weapons.

--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'o****@xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"

[Fredrik Lundh]

Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:

Amanda wrote:
(snip)

>I am always amazed when I meet fanatics!!

I'm always amazed when I meet PC-Soft's salespersons...

isn't there some non-python forum where you can sort this one out ?

</F>

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Fredrik Lundh wrote:

Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:

>Amanda wrote:
(snip)

>>I am always amazed when I meet fanatics!!

I'm always amazed when I meet PC-Soft's salespersons...

isn't there some non-python forum where you can sort this one out ?

Yes, you're right, sorry...

--
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in 'o****@xiludom.gro'.split('@')])"

[baalbek]

Fredrik Lundh wrote:

Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:

>Amanda wrote:
(snip)

>>I am always amazed when I meet fanatics!!

I'm always amazed when I meet PC-Soft's salespersons...

isn't there some non-python forum where you can sort this one out ?

Why is it up to Bruno to sort this out? And what makes you the
"post-nazi" of this group?
As far as I'm concerned, Bruno's reply is 100% called for.

Baalbek