Python Evangelism

[Steve Holden]

I've been thinking (and blogging) about python evangelism since PyCon,
as a result of which I created a squidoo lens:

http://www.squidoo.com/pythonlogy

Imagine my surprise at discovering that this has gone up in rank (by
number of views) from # 442,000 or so to #153! Clearly there's some
mileage in marketing Python, and I'd like to keep the buzz going if it
means more people will adopt the language.

Any suggestions for improvement?

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden [phone] [phone]
Holden Web LLC/Ltd www.holdenweb.com
Love me, love my blog holdenweb.blogspot.com

[Just]

In article <ma***************************************@python. org>,
Steve Holden <st***@holdenweb.com> wrote:

I've been thinking (and blogging) about python evangelism since PyCon,
as a result of which I created a squidoo lens:

http://www.squidoo.com/pythonlogy

Imagine my surprise at discovering that this has gone up in rank (by
number of views) from # 442,000 or so to #153! Clearly there's some
mileage in marketing Python, and I'd like to keep the buzz going if it
means more people will adopt the language.

Any suggestions for improvement?

Yeah, the URL:

http://www.squidoo.com/pythonology

:)

Just

[Gerard Flanagan]

Steve Holden wrote:

I've been thinking (and blogging) about python evangelism since PyCon,
as a result of which I created a squidoo lens:

http://www.squidoo.com/pythonlogy

Imagine my surprise at discovering that this has gone up in rank (by
number of views) from # 442,000 or so to #153! Clearly there's some
mileage in marketing Python, and I'd like to keep the buzz going if it
means more people will adopt the language.

Any suggestions for improvement?

'-nology' not '-nlogy' in the link.

I like the 'What's Happening on Planet Python' section - I find the
planetpython.org gives too much of an intro to the pages it links to. A
line or too, as in the lens site, would be preferable in my view.
Just a thought - would a similar section be suitable for 'python.org'
main page?

Gerard

[Steve Holden]

Doug Bromley wrote:

Python is in desperate need of marketing and I don't think its new site
will help it.
The Ruby community has a fanaticism we could learn from and its going
some way to 'converting' me. The community is alive, growing, shouting
from the roof tops while the Python community seems to sit in its ivory
towers conducting research and corporate development in
'forward-thinking' companies such as Google.
OK, and this post will improve the situation how, exactly?
I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it.
Indeed. Hence http://www.squidoo.com/pythonology

And your contribution is ... yet another post about how we all need to
*do* something? On the other hand, you could just roll up your sleeves
and start doing something :-)

Your take on Python is likely unique: start telling people why *you* use it.

regards
Steve
On 9 Mar 2006 02:43:53 -0800, *Gerard Flanagan* < gr********@yahoo.co.uk
<mailto:gr********@yahoo.co.uk>> wrote:

Steve Holden wrote:

> I've been thinking (and blogging) about python evangelism since

PyCon,

> as a result of which I created a squidoo lens:
>
> http://www.squidoo.com/pythonlogy
>
> Imagine my surprise at discovering that this has gone up in rank (by
> number of views) from # 442,000 or so to #153! Clearly there's some
> mileage in marketing Python, and I'd like to keep the buzz going

if it

> means more people will adopt the language.
>
> Any suggestions for improvement?
>

'-nology' not '-nlogy' in the link.

I like the 'What's Happening on Planet Python' section - I find the
planetpython.org <http://planetpython.org> gives too much of an
intro to the pages it links to. A
line or too, as in the lens site, would be preferable in my view.
Just a thought - would a similar section be suitable for 'python.org
<http://python.org>'
main page?

Gerard

By the way, the apparent increase in rank was somewhat bogus given that
there appear to be fewer than 20,000 lenses at present :-)
--
Steve Holden [phone] [phone]
Holden Web LLC/Ltd www.holdenweb.com
Love me, love my blog holdenweb.blogspot.com

[rtilley]

Steve Holden wrote:

Doug Bromley wrote:

I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it.

I think it's the name. Python. Let's change it to something nicer. Think
about it... if you found a Ruby, you'd pick it up and put it in your
pocket. If you ran across a Python, you'd run away.

Gems is nice too. Compare that to Cheese Shop... who came up with that
:) Do you want a pretty gem stone or a smelly slice of cheese? I mean
that in a literal sense. I don't think Python is smelly at all, but it
certainly has chosen some slimy, smelly bad names for itself!

Psychology is important. Just as important as good design. I think this
fact doesn't sink in to the Python community.

[Fredrik Lundh]

Doug Bromley wrote:

I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it.

on the other hand, people have posted "I can see XXX overtaking Python if we
don't ALL do something about it NOW" messages for as long as I've been using
Python.

the best thing I've seen in the recent "argh! this is the end" threads that have been
popping up here and there is this advice from an anonymous ruby user, from a
comment on guido's blog:

My advice for you Pythonistas: First, chill; the mind works better when
relaxed. Second, look around and count your blessings; Python is every-
where. Third, just work on something you find interesting and fun.

have you used Python to work on something fun and interesting today? if not, what's
your excuse? ;-)

</F>

[Dale Strickland-Clark]

rtilley wrote:

Psychology is important. Just as important as good design. I think this
fact doesn't sink in to the Python community.

You speak of fluff and ribbons and glitter.

I think most people here are less concerned with psychology and more
interested in pychology.
--
Dale Strickland-Clark
Riverhall Systems www.riverhall.co.uk
We're recruiting. See the web site for details.

[Dale Strickland-Clark]

Steve Holden wrote:

Any suggestions for improvement?

regards
Steve

Get rid of the scarey face?

:-)
--
Dale Strickland-Clark
Riverhall Systems www.riverhall.co.uk
We're recruiting. See the web site for details.

[rtilley]

Dale Strickland-Clark wrote:

rtilley wrote:

Psychology is important. Just as important as good design. I think this
fact doesn't sink in to the Python community.

You speak of fluff and ribbons and glitter.

Yes, I know. Great products, ideas and methods have lost mind share to
lesser things (not that Ruby is inferior to Python or vice versa)
because they lack fluff, ribbons and glitter :)

I hope Python gets more fluff... it already has lost of great technical
merit :)

[Andrew Gwozdziewycz]

On 3/9/06, rtilley <rt*****@vt.edu> wrote:

Doug Bromley wrote:

I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it..

I think it's the name. Python. Let's change it to something nicer. Think
about it... if you found a Ruby, you'd pick it up and put it in your
pocket. If you ran across a Python, you'd run away.

Woah, are you actually serious? What would changing the name of language you're
trying to market do for the marketing campaign? New to the YAMMA language? Check
out all these other Python tutorials to get started. I don't think
it's the name, I think the
major problem is people saying, "What can we do to market it?" and not
actually doing
anything, as Steven just said. Work on something. Create something popular.Heck
promote django or some other framework. Work on some new innovative technology
in python! Just choose python and recommend it to others. Word of mouth, Quality
projects and not claiming "we need new marketing strategies" _IS_ the
best marketing
strategy.
Gems is nice too. Compare that to Cheese Shop... who came up with that
:) Do you want a pretty gem stone or a smelly slice of cheese? I mean
that in a literal sense. I don't think Python is smelly at all, but it
certainly has chosen some slimy, smelly bad names for itself!
While I agree, that gem is nice and python needs a new standard
package management
system, maybe that's your contribution! Build it! Make it awesome!
Psychology is important. Just as important as good design. I think this
fact doesn't sink in to the Python community.

Pyschology _is_ important, but not in this case. Make good products
and they will
come. Python has a ton of good projects and a ton of users. What we
don't have is
ruby on rails and the web 2.0 crowd, and I say, who the hell cares? We
have everything
else.

--
Andrew Gwozdziewycz <ap****@gmail.com>
http://ihadagreatview.org
http://plasticandroid.org

[rtilley]

Andrew Gwozdziewycz wrote:

On 3/9/06, rtilley <rt*****@vt.edu> wrote:

Doug Bromley wrote:

I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it.

I think it's the name. Python. Let's change it to something nicer. Think
about it... if you found a Ruby, you'd pick it up and put it in your
pocket. If you ran across a Python, you'd run away.

Woah, are you actually serious? What would changing the name of language you're
trying to market do for the marketing campaign?

Yes I am. But I'm no one so there is no need to take my advice :)

Snakes are naturally thought of as bad or dangerous. Some large snakes
eat our pets and other small, warm-blooded, furry mammals like us.
People naturally kill snakes or run from them. We teach children to
avoid snakes. It's almost instinct to fear them. So, you have a product,
an idea, a method... don't name it after something that is so naturally
repulsive. It's really that simple.

I've had people ask about the "Python" folder on their computer. They
thought it must be a virus or malware simply based on its name.

[rtilley]

Andrew Gwozdziewycz wrote:

What would changing the name of language you're
trying to market do for the marketing campaign?

I forgot to address this part... I think it would create a lot of hype.
What well-established programming language has ever had the nerve to
change its name after more than a decade of success? Think of the
attention that alone would bring :) python would get slashdotted to
death! CNN would probably write about it... maybe the BBC too.

Python could have a huge name changing contest/campaign and maybe some
killer app could be released just as the name had changed. Guido could
make some statement about dropping the cold-bloodedness of Python,
becoming more warm and inviting, etc. etc.

It would be a smashing success.

[Paul Boddie]

rtilley wrote:

Steve Holden wrote:

Doug Bromley wrote:

I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it.

I think it's the name. Python. Let's change it to something nicer. Think
about it... if you found a Ruby, you'd pick it up and put it in your
pocket. If you ran across a Python, you'd run away.

That's only fairly ridiculous. Sure, there are some negative
connotations in various cultures, but a lot of the jibes about the
Python name are fuelled by the need various people feel to validate
their own beliefs in front of their own herd of programming language
adherents. The reason why a name change is ridiculous now is that you'd
be throwing away 15 or so years of name recognition in a way not
dissimilar to the way companies with established brands spend millions
to throw away recognisable, iconic logos and replace them with swirls
and bright colours that look embarrassing only a few years later.
Gems is nice too. Compare that to Cheese Shop... who came up with that
I agree with you here, though. I want to be diplomatic here, but Cheese
Shop - a name for a package repository, for those who are lost already
- is really just a totally stupid name. Yes, I'm aware of the Monty
Python sketch, mediocre by the high standards of the Pythons' various
other works, but people really shouldn't have to buy into some kind of
clique to decode terminology in order to get help, support, updates,
and to learn more about the technology they're using. Some people
haven't even seen Monty Python, believe it or not, let alone be able to
quote the less humourous sketches by heart; sometimes people just want
straightforward labelling and humour in places where it's more likely
to be appreciated.

[...]
Psychology is important. Just as important as good design. I think this
fact doesn't sink in to the Python community.

A lot doesn't sink in with the Python community. :-/

Paul

[gregarican]

rtilley wrote:

It would be a smashing success.

And I have an idea for a party game. It's called "Jump to Conclusions."
There would be a mat with all of these conclusions written down and...

[rtilley]

Paul Boddie wrote:

I agree with you here, though. I want to be diplomatic here, but Cheese
Shop - a name for a package repository, for those who are lost already
- is really just a totally stupid name. Yes, I'm aware of the Monty
Python sketch, mediocre by the high standards of the Pythons' various
other works, but people really shouldn't have to buy into some kind of
clique to decode terminology in order to get help, support, updates,
and to learn more about the technology they're using. Some people
haven't even seen Monty Python...

Even more reason to change the name.

Use a name that has lots of other widely known, well thought of names
associated with it. The Ruby name is a very good example of this.
Although, this was accidental and not planned.

People associate the words precious, valued, gem, treasured, stone
solid, etc. with the word ruby. Also, a good product with a good name
makes it easy for others to add value by building other good names
around it.

What do you think of when you hear 'eggs'? Many people think 'rotten',
'smelly' or something that made them throw-up once. The point of this is
that names _matter_ and influence what others think even if only in a
subconscious way.

I'll leave it at that. I like Python a lot. Technically, it's awesome. I
don't think the language is bad... just the names associated with it.

Just my 2 cents.

[Douglas Alan]

rtilley <rt*****@vt.edu> writes:

Steve Holden wrote:

Doug Bromley wrote:

I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it.

I think it's the name. Python. Let's change it to something nicer.

I agree that names are very important -- Java would never have caught
on the way that it did if Sun had left the name as "Oak". I think
you're wrong about the name "Python", though. Snakes are cool and
have street cred. That's why there are cars with names like "Cobra"
and "Viper".

It doesn't matter if the average joe is scared when they see a folder
named "python" on their computer, as the average joe isn't a
programmer.

Ruby didn't start catching on until Ruby on Rails came out. If Python
has a naming problem, it's with the name of Django, rather than
Python. Firstly, Django doesn't have "Python" in the name, so it
doesn't popularize the language behind it, even should Django become
very popular. Secondly, Django just doesn't have the ring of "Ruby on
Rails". They should change the name to "Blood Python" instead. Okay,
well, maybe not. How about "Green Tree Python"? Hmmm, kind of
boring. Well, maybe "Python on the Bullet Train"? Okay, too
derivative. "Maglev Python"? "Python with Panache"? "Python on
Prozac"?

I give up. In any case, I'm sure Django was a great musician, but the
product needs a better name to have any chance of displacing Rails.

|>oug

[has]

Steve Holden wrote:

I've been thinking (and blogging) about python evangelism since PyCon,
as a result of which I created a squidoo lens:
Any suggestions for improvement?

Something that seems to be ignored in general Python evangelism is its
support for major platform-specific technologies. e.g. On OS X you've
got PyObjC, py2app and appscript, which enable Python to integrate with
or compete against ObjC and AppleScript for desktop application
development and automation. I'm sure Windows and Linux folk could name
various extensions for those platforms too.

HTH

[Zachery Bir]

On Mar 9, 2006, at 12:04 PM, rtilley wrote:

What do you think of when you hear 'eggs'? Many people think 'rotten',
'smelly' or something that made them throw-up once. The point of
this is
that names _matter_ and influence what others think even if only in a
subconscious way.
I think you've got a lot of bottled up negativity.
I'll leave it at that. I like Python a lot. Technically, it's
awesome. I
don't think the language is bad... just the names associated with it.

I'm betting you won't leave it at that.

Zac

[Magnus Lycka]

rtilley wrote:

Steve Holden wrote:

Doug Bromley wrote:

I can see Ruby overtaking Python if we don't ALL do something about it.

I think it's the name. Python. Let's change it to something nicer. Think
about it... if you found a Ruby, you'd pick it up and put it in your
pocket. If you ran across a Python, you'd run away.

I think you have a point, but I also think it's a bit
late to change it after 15 years or so, considering all
books, web sites etc. We're stuck with Python, and can
only do the best of that. Actually, in Swedish, "Jag
mår pyton" i.e. "I feel like python" means "I feel
sick", and "det luktar pyton" i.e. "it smells python",
means "it stinks". That doesn't make Python easier to
sell here... Still to late to change...

It's not too late to rename the cheese shop though.
(We don't need even more stink...)

I think a good example on the problem with letting
techies like us do naming is that grand successor
of Unix developed by the great minds at Bell Labs.

First, they name it after a movie which is famous
for being exceptionally bad--Plan 9 (from outer space).
Really grand company there!

Then, when they make a real product of it, they call
it Inferno, and some part of it gets called Limbo.

They do this on purpose in the U.S. A country full
of religious fanatics, where it's impossible to be
elected president unless you claim that you are a
devoted Christian and say "God bless America" every
time you open your mouth.

No wonder the preferred operating systems (except a
boring proprietary one) are still purely old fashion
Unix based ones. Most of those smart improvements
never quite made it...

[Fredrik Lundh]

Magnus Lycka wrote:

That doesn't make Python easier to sell here...

verkligen? jag kan inte påminna mig om att någon någonsin langat
upp det argumentet, annat än möjligen som ett tamt skämt...

(borde du inte vara ute på stan och svira, förresten, istället för att
sitta på jobbet så här sent? ;-)

</F>

[Tim Churches]

Robert Boyd wrote:

And re Cheeseshop, yes, it's a poor name when you consider that the
point of the skit was that the cheeseshop _had no cheese_, whose only
purpose was to "deliberately waste your time." Not a great name for a
package library, especially for those in the know of Python humor!

"Cheese shop" is intended as a double irony, surely? I suppose some
cultures (and certain types of people, especially PHBs) are challenged
by single irony, let alone a double dose.

Tim C

[Tim Churches]

Douglas Alan wrote:

Ruby didn't start catching on until Ruby on Rails came out. If Python
has a naming problem, it's with the name of Django, rather than
Python. Firstly, Django doesn't have "Python" in the name, so it
doesn't popularize the language behind it, even should Django become
very popular. Secondly, Django just doesn't have the ring of "Ruby on
Rails". They should change the name to "Blood Python" instead. Okay,
well, maybe not. How about "Green Tree Python"? Hmmm, kind of
boring. Well, maybe "Python on the Bullet Train"? Okay, too
derivative. "Maglev Python"? "Python with Panache"? "Python on
Prozac"?
How about Amethyst? As in "amethyst python" - see
http://www.stthomasschool.org/Classr...z/AmPython.htm

Of course, although amethyst was originally considered a "cardinal gem"
alongside ruby, it no longer is since huge quantities were discovered in
Brazil - at least, that's what is says here:
http://www.answers.com/topic/gemstone-1
I give up. In any case, I'm sure Django was a great musician, but the
product needs a better name to have any chance of displacing Rails.

I find the Django name tres cool and am considering changing the names
of two Python projects on which I am working to Thelonious and Miles.

Tim C

[Terry Hancock]

On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 20:21:59 +0100
Magnus Lycka <ly***@carmen.se> wrote:

It's not too late to rename the cheese shop though.
(We don't need even more stink...)

I love cheese, so no problem on that score. But the
problem is, if you actually know where "Python" comes
from, you are likely to suspect that said site contains
no cheese.

I think even GvR mentioned this at PyCon. ;-)

OTOH, I guess ironic naming can be cool, too.

I'm still a little put off by "Dogpile" though. And
isn't there a language called "brainfuck" or something?

So "python" is hardly the worst.

Reminds me of Slartibartfast's original name in the
Hitchhiker's radio scripts -- the point being that he
has this really embarrassing name and doesn't want to
talk about it. The original joke was funnier (but
unbroadcastable). Even now I'm wondering if some
filter is going to kill this message.

Anyway, "python" could theoretically apply the
"bad=good" marketing, although something venomous
would probably be more effective.

Cheers,
Terry

--
Terry Hancock (ha*****@AnansiSpaceworks.com)
Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com

[Andrew Gwozdziewycz]

> I agree that names are very important -- Java would never have caught

on the way that it did if Sun had left the name as "Oak". I think
you're wrong about the name "Python", though. Snakes are cool and
have street cred. That's why there are cars with names like "Cobra"
and "Viper".

It doesn't matter if the average joe is scared when they see a folder
named "python" on their computer, as the average joe isn't a
programmer.

Ruby didn't start catching on until Ruby on Rails came out. If Python
has a naming problem, it's with the name of Django, rather than
Python. Firstly, Django doesn't have "Python" in the name, so it
doesn't popularize the language behind it, even should Django become
very popular. Secondly, Django just doesn't have the ring of "Ruby on
Rails". They should change the name to "Blood Python" instead. Okay,
well, maybe not. How about "Green Tree Python"? Hmmm, kind of
boring. Well, maybe "Python on the Bullet Train"? Okay, too
derivative. "Maglev Python"? "Python with Panache"? "Python on
Prozac"?

I'll admit "Ruby on Rails" is a clever name. The fact that you mention
it "didn't catch on"
is only partially true. Popular? Not by any means, but there were a
good number of users
before Rails. Quite a lot of libraries and a very usable language.
Rails did however
jump start it's new career as the definitive web2.0 language, but who
cares? Not me!

We're talking python here. There's no need for Python to have "Python
on Cables" or
some other equally stupid named project. Python doesn't even need to
be the definitive web
language. Who cares? Use it if you want to to build a website. Hell I
like django quite
a bit, but anyone writing something for django knows it's written in
python. Anyone
writing something with Ruby On Rails knows that ruby is the language
behind it. Does
some non programmer care? No. If some non-programmer decided to
create a new web
app, and his friend said, 'I hear django is quick and oh, it use's
this really cool easy to learn
language python,' What's the difference? Is calling it Python on Trees
any different? The
guy doesn't know what python on is, let alone why it's on trees?
---
Andrew Gwozdziewycz
ap****@gmail.com
http://ihadagreatview.org
http://and.rovir.us

[UrsusMaximus]

Python is a friendly name, like Mickey Mouse. If you saw a real mouse
(or worse, a rat), you wouldn't likely fall in love with it; but Mickey
is about as good a marketing icon as any in history.

Python also has staying power. Snakes may be scary and even dangerous,
but they get respect; think about the symbol for medical science.

A friendly snake is a good snake, and the Python logo snake is very
friendly.

In fact, If there's one word I would suggest as a slogan for Python,
it's "friendly". Python is friendly for Linux users, friendly for Mac
OS X users, friendly for Windows users, friendly to JVM users, and
handheld users; friendly for web server programmers, client-side GUI
programmers, etc.

Python has a friendly community, is friendly to experts, and friendly
to newbies.

Heck, we're even friendly to other programming language communities
;-)))

Ron Stephens
Python411
www.awaretek.com/python/index.html

[John Pote]

"Steve Holden" <st***@holdenweb.com> wrote in message
news:ma***************************************@pyt hon.org...

This thread was great entertainment at the end of today reading down the
screen with a beer going down on the side. Here's my penny's worth:

Over this side of the pond the good old British Post Office changed its name
to 'Consignia' in 2001. After a year and a bit they chucked the fancy new
name for the old one - 'Post Office'. Although I scan the trade rags I
missed the editorial announcing hp re-branding some of its products (test
and measurement) Agilent and it confused me for some time as I saw Agilent
products advertised that looked just like hp ones. (And I still think of my
"Agilent" oscilloscope as an 'hp', this probably reflects my middle years!)

As no one in this thread has said why Python is so good here's my reasons.

The text
print "hello world"
stuck in a file and executed actually works and does exactly what it says on
the tin - great for knocking up simple procedural scripts. On the other hand
there's lots of freely available modules in the standard lib and 'out there'
for doing full blown OO programming for complex multi-threaded apps. (I'm
currently looking at Twisted for a distributed internet app - looks good so
far)

wxPython + Glade I'm finding is a good combination for putting together
Python + GUI apps.

No compile then link (while I go and make a coffee, stare out the window . .
.. ) stage, write once run anywhere.

what's in a name? fortran, algol, rexx, hope, haskell, pascal, modula,
eiffel, B, C, J, tcl, pearl, ruby, rebol, cobol, basic, vb, .net, assembler,
forth, snobol, ada, prolog, simula, smalltalk, oberon, dylan, bob, ML et al
ad nauseum.
- is Python any less meaningful? Anyway I LIKE the chesse shop sketch!

active news group that's always been helpful

One language does full blown apps and simple desktop scripts.

It's more readable than other languages I've looked at.

Any suggestions for improvement?

Well yes,
mainly documentation - especially exceptions. The principle of exceptions is
described well in the reference manual and standard books. What I mean is
the ref manual often buries exception details in the text description and
gives only outline detail of the exception's cause(s) and details of the
exception object. Some lib modules do state that other exceptions may be
thrown but unless they are listed how can robust programmes be written? The
httplib does list the HTTPException based exceptions but there is no mention
of the 'socket' exceptions that can be thrown. This leaves the programmer
with using a catch all (frowned upon) or scanning through hundreds/thousands
of lines of code in possibly deeply nested modules.

The beer's run out so I'll stop here.

keep at it everyone, best regards,

John Pote

[Kay Schluehr]

Magnus Lycka wrote:

They do this on purpose in the U.S. A country full
of religious fanatics, where it's impossible to be
elected president unless you claim that you are a
devoted Christian and say "God bless America" every
time you open your mouth.

Maybe Pythonistas should make a cultural investment in emergent
markets?

http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_naga.htm

Kay

[Tim Churches]

Kay Schluehr wrote:

Magnus Lycka wrote:

They do this on purpose in the U.S. A country full
of religious fanatics, where it's impossible to be
elected president unless you claim that you are a
devoted Christian and say "God bless America" every
time you open your mouth.

Maybe Pythonistas should make a cultural investment in emergent
markets?

http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_naga.htm

I notice the above page mentions Glykon - see also
http://www.livius.org/gi-gr/glykon/glykon.html

I think that Glykon should be invited to be the sponsoring divinity for
PyCon next year. I hear that worship of pagan gods is, like everything
else, bigger in Texas.

Tim C

[Juho Schultz]

Magnus Lycka wrote:

rtilley wrote:

I think it's the name. Python. Let's change it to something nicer.
Think about it... if you found a Ruby, you'd pick it up and put it in
your pocket. If you ran across a Python, you'd run away.

I think you have a point, but I also think it's a bit
late to change it after 15 years or so, considering all
books, web sites etc. We're stuck with Python, and can
only do the best of that. Actually, in Swedish, "Jag
mår pyton" i.e. "I feel like python" means "I feel
sick", and "det luktar pyton" i.e. "it smells python",
means "it stinks". That doesn't make Python easier to
sell here... Still to late to change...

In Finnish "ajaa käärme pyssyyn" ("force a snake into a rifle") means
doing something almost impossible. If you have to put a snake into a
rifle, try Python - a bite does not kill you. So it works both ways.
I think a good example on the problem with letting
techies like us do naming is that grand successor
of Unix developed by the great minds at Bell Labs.

First, they name it after a movie which is famous
for being exceptionally bad--Plan 9 (from outer space).
Really grand company there!

Then, when they make a real product of it, they call
it Inferno, and some part of it gets called Limbo.

"Inferno - the Lamborghini Diablo of operating systems"
What is the problem here?

[Ant]

> It's not too late to rename the cheese shop though.

(We don't need even more stink...)

What kind of cheese do you guys eat anyway ;-)

It's not the names that are the problem as far as markleing goes - they
are not dull names, which means they won't be forgotten. This is a good
thing! As is the humour - who amongst us are going to forget where the
repository for community projects are? Unlike RubyJewels, RubyBaubles
or whatever ;-)

As long as the names are memorable, marketing isn't an issue if it
want's to be done. For example the famous British inventors Wallace and
Gromit could be asked to endorse Python, ("Look Gromit - a Cheese
shop!"). And there is a successful web-based credit card called an Egg
card.

A Python is a good powerful image to have associated with the language.
What does Ruby say? That the language is pretty? And Perl? Misleading
advertising there then ;-) Ever seen a Python? Powerful, elegant, and
can digest just about anything you can feed it... good image I reckon!

I'm obviously not suggesting we do such a thing, just pointing out a
couple of things:

1) There's nothing wrong with the names we've got.
2) Some people on this newsgroup need to clean their fridges out more
often!

--
Ant...

[Terry Hancock]

On Thu, 9 Mar 2006 19:33:38 -0500
"Thomas G. Willis" <to********@gmail.com> wrote:

On 3/9/06, Terry Hancock <ha*****@anansispaceworks.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 9 Mar 2006 10:33:12 -0500
"Thomas G. Willis" <to********@gmail.com> wrote:

I get particulalry annoyed now with linux when I start
up synaptic and my choices are cluttered with several
programs who might help me in some way, but the only
difference described in the description is that they
were implemented in language XXX. I don't really
consider that a choice, it's more noise than anything.
Well, it's a matter of audience. I like to know what
language programs are written in because I might want to
modify them, and I don't feel equally confident in every
language. A program written in C is less "open" to me
personally than one written in Python (even though C is
something I have used). A program written in Lisp or
Prolog might as well be closed source for my purposes --
I'd have as much luck begging the developers to make
changes as to attempt them myself.

This is a non-issue for programs that already "just
work", which is why a utility like bittorrent needn't
bother advertising its language. It also can be a
red-herring if a language is written in C or Java, but
has an excellent Python scripting environment.

So, while I can appreciate that it may seem like noise
to someone who never imagines tinkering with the sources
and it isn't a 100% indicator of what I want to know,
it can be really useful to tinkerers (and it shouldn't
be surprising that tinkerers design a system that's good
for tinkerers).

There are of course, desktop distributions that cut all
that cruft down to "best of breed" applications for the
end user.

I see your points Terry. And I understand the need for
tinkerers and the value of knowing what options are
available in a given language.

But, I think relying on the language as a selling
point/feature is short sighted. I can't recall any program
that has gained mass acceptance who's selling point was
"written in ..."

That makes sense if the author's objective is "mass
acceptance". But that's not what you get "paid" for on
an open source project.

Payment -- in the form of contributions to your project --
occurs because you attract people who share your interest
in working on the code.

Of course, this really depends a lot on who the author is,
and what their motivations were in creating the package.

But in the classic "scratch an itch"/"single developer
working in their spare time" scenario, it's pretty
common.

It's also probably a bit much to expect "savvy marketing"
from said back room developer. ;-)

It helps if you think of it as a "swap meet" instead
of a "department store". :-)
In the case of language evangelism, It'd be nice if kick
ass programs were produced that revolutionized computing
and how people communicate. If they were written in a
language that I already know and can extend if I desire,
even better. if the equation were flipped and it was just
a program written in a language I know, but does not do
anything of value for me that isn't already fulfilled
elsewhere, then it essentially holds no value.
That would be true if programs were atomic. But it
quite frequently happens that a program which provides
a "mundane" piece of programming infrastructure (say
an email client) is a useful part to add to that
"revolutionary" application that you've been tinkering
with for the last few months.

Anyway, I think most of us are into evolution more than
revolution. The latter is more newsworthy, but the former
is where most of the action is most of the time. Kind
of like any field in science or engineering. :-)
why did you reply to me instead of the list?

Thumbfingered, I guess. ;-) I've responded to both and
left myself quoted. Normally, my client *does* respond
automatically to the list, I'm not sure why it didn't
this time.

Cheers,
Terry

--
Terry Hancock (ha*****@AnansiSpaceworks.com)
Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com

[Terry Hancock]

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 20:44:55 +1100
Tim Churches <tc***@optushome.com.au> wrote:

I think that Glykon should be invited to be the sponsoring
divinity for PyCon next year. I hear that worship of pagan
gods is, like everything else, bigger in Texas.

Ignoring the silly Python jokes, *is* PyCON going to be in
Texas next year? I wasn't sure what would happen, since it
was in Washington DC the last (first?) 3 years, according to
the website. Would be great for me if true, since I live
there.

--
Terry Hancock (ha*****@AnansiSpaceworks.com)
Anansi Spaceworks http://www.AnansiSpaceworks.com

[Steve Holden]

Terry Hancock wrote:

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 20:44:55 +1100
Tim Churches <tc***@optushome.com.au> wrote:

I think that Glykon should be invited to be the sponsoring
divinity for PyCon next year. I hear that worship of pagan
gods is, like everything else, bigger in Texas.

Ignoring the silly Python jokes, *is* PyCON going to be in
Texas next year? I wasn't sure what would happen, since it
was in Washington DC the last (first?) 3 years, according to
the website. Would be great for me if true, since I live
there.

Yes, 2007 will be at the same place as 2006.

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden [phone] [phone]
Holden Web LLC/Ltd www.holdenweb.com
Love me, love my blog holdenweb.blogspot.com

[Paul Boddie]

John Pote wrote:

Over this side of the pond the good old British Post Office changed its name
to 'Consignia' in 2001.
I thought it was actually the Royal Mail, but the brand history can be
found here:

http://www.royalmailgroup.com/aboutus/aboutus8.asp

The fact that people confuse "Royal Mail" with "Post Office" might
suggest something to brand experts, but I'd argue that pulling one of
the names out of use, especially the one people tend not to use (but
the one they've now chosen for the parent company), would suggest
something else to normal people: it would either weaken the dual-named
"superbrand" or merely be regarded with contempt. Examples can be found
for this and other re-branding cases quite readily on the Internet, but
don't search for 'Consignia "Royal Mail"' in Google, though, as it
seems to result in a bizarre error page:

"""
We're sorry...
.... but your query looks similar to automated requests from a computer
virus or spyware application. To protect our users, we can't process
your request right now.
"""

Anyway, aside from bizarre technical moments like this, what you've
described can probably be termed "brand suicide": the scrapping of a
recognisable brand identity with something fashionable at a particular
point in time that looks dated within a few years, and which has people
wondering who they're doing business with (despite extensive
publicity), only to discover that it's been the same company all along.

[...]
what's in a name? fortran, algol, rexx, hope, haskell, pascal, modula,
eiffel, B, C, J, tcl, pearl, ruby, rebol, cobol, basic, vb, .net, assembler,
forth, snobol, ada, prolog, simula, smalltalk, oberon, dylan, bob, ML et al
ad nauseum.
- is Python any less meaningful? Anyway I LIKE the chesse shop sketch!

The problem with the Cheese Shop name, aside from sounding ridiculous,
is that it isn't self-explanatory in an area which needs
self-explanatory labelling. Consider the following conversations:

A: "I need to find something in Python that does this."
B: "Have you tried the Python Package Index?"
A: "Don't know why I didn't think of that!"

A: "I need to find something in Python that does this."
B: "Have you tried the Cheese Shop?"
A: "WTF is that?"
[Lengthy, embarrassed explanation follows.]

Bizarre names may be cute (to some people) but they don't lend
themselves to guessing or searching. Consequently, people who want
answers yesterday aren't likely to be amused to eventually discover
that the name of the resource they've been looking for is some opaque,
three-levels-of-indirection-via-irony, in-crowd joke. And even acronyms
like CPAN are better than wacky names, anyway.

Paul

[Steve Holden]

Paul Boddie wrote:

John Pote wrote:

Over this side of the pond the good old British Post Office changed its name
to 'Consignia' in 2001.

I thought it was actually the Royal Mail, but the brand history can be
found here:

http://www.royalmailgroup.com/aboutus/aboutus8.asp

The fact that people confuse "Royal Mail" with "Post Office" might
suggest something to brand experts, but I'd argue that pulling one of
the names out of use, especially the one people tend not to use (but
the one they've now chosen for the parent company), would suggest
something else to normal people: it would either weaken the dual-named
"superbrand" or merely be regarded with contempt. Examples can be found
for this and other re-branding cases quite readily on the Internet, but
don't search for 'Consignia "Royal Mail"' in Google, though, as it
seems to result in a bizarre error page:

"""
We're sorry...
... but your query looks similar to automated requests from a computer
virus or spyware application. To protect our users, we can't process
your request right now.
"""

Anyway, aside from bizarre technical moments like this, what you've
described can probably be termed "brand suicide": the scrapping of a
recognisable brand identity with something fashionable at a particular
point in time that looks dated within a few years, and which has people
wondering who they're doing business with (despite extensive
publicity), only to discover that it's been the same company all along.

[...]

what's in a name? fortran, algol, rexx, hope, haskell, pascal, modula,
eiffel, B, C, J, tcl, pearl, ruby, rebol, cobol, basic, vb, .net, assembler,
forth, snobol, ada, prolog, simula, smalltalk, oberon, dylan, bob, ML et al
ad nauseum.
- is Python any less meaningful? Anyway I LIKE the chesse shop sketch!

The problem with the Cheese Shop name, aside from sounding ridiculous,
is that it isn't self-explanatory in an area which needs
self-explanatory labelling. Consider the following conversations:

A: "I need to find something in Python that does this."
B: "Have you tried the Python Package Index?"
A: "Don't know why I didn't think of that!"

A: "I need to find something in Python that does this."
B: "Have you tried the Cheese Shop?"
A: "WTF is that?"
[Lengthy, embarrassed explanation follows.]

Bizarre names may be cute (to some people) but they don't lend
themselves to guessing or searching. Consequently, people who want
answers yesterday aren't likely to be amused to eventually discover
that the name of the resource they've been looking for is some opaque,
three-levels-of-indirection-via-irony, in-crowd joke. And even acronyms
like CPAN are better than wacky names, anyway.

Paul

All true to some extent, but rather negated byt he fact that the first
Google hot for "python package" is:

Python Cheese Shop : Home
Updated, Package, Description. 2006-03-09, PyISAPIe 1.0.0, Python ISAPI
.... 2006-03-07, matplotlib 0.87.1, Matlab(TM) style python plotting
package ...
cheeseshop.python.org/pypi - 10k - 8 Mar 2006 - Cached - Similar pages

I still wish it had some explanaotry text on there, though. i can't help
agreeing with you that "Cheese Shop" is just, well, cheesy.

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden [phone] [phone]
Holden Web LLC/Ltd www.holdenweb.com
Love me, love my blog holdenweb.blogspot.com

[Benny]

Paul Boddie wrote:

Bizarre names may be cute (to some people) but they don't lend
themselves to guessing or searching. Consequently, people who want
answers yesterday aren't likely to be amused to eventually discover
that the name of the resource they've been looking for is some opaque,
three-levels-of-indirection-via-irony, in-crowd joke. And even acronyms
like CPAN are better than wacky names, anyway.

To emphasize the point as a newbie: I know what CPAN is. I would go to
the Vaults of Parnassus for Python stuff. But Cheese Shop?

--
Rod

[Andrew Gwozdziewycz]

> To emphasize the point as a newbie: I know what CPAN is. I would go to

the Vaults of Parnassus for Python stuff. But Cheese Shop?

Well, why don't we promote it as PyPI (Python Package Index)? The url
_is_ python.org/pypi, and I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that PyPI
was the intended name... If the community then decides on some
standardized automated package management, I'm sure PyPI (cheese shop)
would probably be the definitive repository.

$ pypi install hello

is much better than

$ bluecheese install hello

--
Andrew Gwozdziewycz <ap****@gmail.com>
http://ihadagreatview.org
http://plasticandroid.org

[Tim Parkin]

Andrew Gwozdziewycz wrote:

> To emphasize the point as a newbie: I know what CPAN is. I would go to

the Vaults of Parnassus for Python stuff. But Cheese Shop?

Well, why don't we promote it as PyPI (Python Package Index)? The url
_is_ python.org/pypi, and I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that PyPI
was the intended name... If the community then decides on some
standardized automated package management, I'm sure PyPI (cheese shop)
would probably be the definitive repository.

$ pypi install hello

is much better than

$ bluecheese install hello

I have to say I prefer pypi myself.. I think it's a great idea
subtitling it 'cheeseshop' but referring to it directly as "cheeseshop"
is confusing at best. I've already had a few requests to change the text
of the link on the home page to 'packages' or 'package index'.

Tim Parkin

[Tim Churches]

Benny wrote:

Paul Boddie wrote:

Bizarre names may be cute (to some people) but they don't lend
themselves to guessing or searching. Consequently, people who want
answers yesterday aren't likely to be amused to eventually discover
that the name of the resource they've been looking for is some opaque,
three-levels-of-indirection-via-irony, in-crowd joke. And even acronyms
like CPAN are better than wacky names, anyway.

To emphasize the point as a newbie: I know what CPAN is. I would go to
the Vaults of Parnassus for Python stuff. But Cheese Shop?

I like the irony of the name Cheese Shop, but I do think that there is a
problem with "Shop", as it typically means a place where you buy things
for money. However, the vast majority of the cheesy comestibles at the
Cheese Shop are available for free. In fact, of 1287 packages currently
listed there, only 7 have non-free or proprietary licenses. Actually, it
was the "National Cheese Emporium" in the original sketch, although Mr
Wensleydale does describe it as a cheese shop - but both "shop" and
"emporium" are used to describe places of commerce. On re-acquaintance,
the sketch itself is still very funny after all these years, except
perhaps for the ending, in which Mousebender shoots dead Mr Wensleydale
for deliberately wasting his time. In the early 1970s in Britain, when
shooters were possessed by a very small minority of blaggards, that
might have been funny, but in the early 21st century, I find it grates a
little (no pun intended) - I can imagine the same fate befalling a
latter-day Wensleydale in a different country who happens to be fresh
out of meira. But I am sure ESR would defend Mousebender's right to blow
poor Wensleydale away - see http://www.catb.org/~esr/guns/gun-ethics.html .

So is there an alternative Monty Python sketch which has a theme of
purveyance as opposed to commerce? None spring to mind.

Tim C

[Terry Reedy]

"Tim Parkin" <ti*@pollenation.net> wrote in message
news:44**************@pollenation.net...

Well, why don't we promote it as PyPI (Python Package Index)? The url
_is_ python.org/pypi, and I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that PyPI
was the intended name... If the community then decides on some
standardized automated package management, I'm sure PyPI (cheese shop)
would probably be the definitive repository.

$ pypi install hello

is much better than

$ bluecheese install hello

Definitely
I have to say I prefer pypi myself.
Strongly prefer. Cheeseshop made no sense to me until explained.
I think it's a great idea
subtitling it 'cheeseshop' but referring to it directly as "cheeseshop"
is confusing at best.
I think PieShop would be much funnier as a double pun on Py/Pi and as a
subtle Python riff on the Cheeseshop sketch for those familiar with the
latter. I also remember something about a Python/Parrot pie fight.
I've already had a few requests to change the text
of the link on the home page to 'packages' or 'package index'.

Please at least make it a synonym.

Terry Jan Reedy

[Michael Tobis]

The name isn't changing, so it's a "make lemonade" situation.

What's the best use we can make of the name; how do we make it stick in
people's minds positively? How do we make a positive image out of it?

Shy tadpoles, by the way, ( http://python.org/images/python-logo.gif )
isn't it.

mt

[Tim Churches]

Would it be possible to rename "Cheese Shop" as "Bright Side of Life"?

That's a cheery, upbeat name, there are overtones of commerce or filthy
lucre, it is a clear reference to one of the Monty Python crew's
greatest works, it can be easily abbreviated to BSOL (to avoid confusion
with BSL for blood sugar level, and to have some resonance with another
well-known Python acronym, BDFL), it is associated with a memorable
theme tune which, appropriately, reminds one to always look on the BSOL
(see http://www.geocities.com/fang_club/B...e_of_life.html for the
lyrics), one can install an (ALOT)BSOL ringtone on your mobile (cell)
phone if one wishes like - see (or hear) for example
http://www.niksula.cs.hut.fi/~ajvaanan/p_80861/ , and it possesses a
certain irony just like the original Cheese Shop allusion.

So, BSOL instead of Cheese Shop? I am quite prepared to be crucified
(cheerfully) for this suggestion.

Tim C

[Tim Churches]

Tim Churches wrote:

Would it be possible to rename "Cheese Shop" as "Bright Side of Life"?

That's a cheery, upbeat name, there are overtones of commerce or filthy
lucre,

I meant "no overtones", mea culpa.

Tim C

[Gerard Flanagan]

Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 13:30:43 +1100, Tim Churches
<tc***@optushome.com.au> declaimed the following in comp.lang.python:

Would it be possible to rename "Cheese Shop" as "Bright Side of Life"?

I think I'd prefer "The Larch"...

Or just "SPAM" (<something> Python <something> Modules ?)
--

...nostalgic flashback to D.R. and Quinch - 'Something Something
Oranges Something',

and Google provides: http://mindtheoranges.net/

lol. :-)

Gerard

[Just]

In article <f5********************************@4ax.com>,
Dennis Lee Bieber <wl*****@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 13:30:43 +1100, Tim Churches
<tc***@optushome.com.au> declaimed the following in comp.lang.python:

Would it be possible to rename "Cheese Shop" as "Bright Side of Life"?

I think I'd prefer "The Larch"...

Or just "SPAM" (<something> Python <something> Modules ?)

Standard Python Archive (of) Modules?

Just

[Paul Boddie]

Tim Churches wrote:

Would it be possible to rename "Cheese Shop" as "Bright Side of Life"?

Well, you could replay the conversation I gave as an example elsewhere
to see if it sounds ridiculous or not, but what we've encountered here
is the problem of whether something should be given a distinctive
identity or a derivative identity. A long time ago, and possibly
continuing to this day, people complained about how nearly every Python
package, module or program had names starting or ending with "Py" -
announcing a module in a Python newsgroup and giving it a name starting
with "Py" seemed somewhat redundant, and there was always the issue of
not being able to scan long lists of packages comfortably, just like
with all the KDE application names that start with the letter K.

But even without "the curse of Py", many people don't just choose
arbitrary names for their packages: it often makes sense to include
related technologies in the name (eg. XML, XSLT, ado, dav), or to use a
descriptive component, possibly in shortened form (eg. auth, bayes,
bio, Cal). Yes, a search will often bring forth the right resource
regardless of what it's called, but many people underestimate their own
searching skills and overestimate what other people can find via things
like Google.

Of course, programs may downplay Python as the implementation
technology because the underlying technical details are mostly
irrelevant to end-users (eg. BitTorrent, b3, Eric, Glarf), but if we
look at distinctively named packages, we can see that they often
attempt to define their own identity distinct from Python (eg.
BeautifulSoup, Dabo, DejaVu, Django, Twisted, Zope), frequently because
they seek to be the primary point of reference for developers -
developing in Twisted or Zope is more specialised than just developing
things in Python. Some of the distinctively named package names employ
metaphors and/or cultural references that possibly make them more
memorable, but they don't necessarily make the names easy to guess.

So should a service for finding Python packages have a distinct
identity? It is possible that a package index could be someone's
principal view of the Python world ("I go to Camelot to get... what is
it I get there?"), but the things that emerge from such a service
aren't just downloads that have little in common with each other.
Consequently, I don't think a descriptive name, derived from the name
of the technology, is sensibly avoided in this case.

Paul

[Kay Schluehr]

Paul Boddie wrote:

Tim Churches wrote:

Would it be possible to rename "Cheese Shop" as "Bright Side of Life"?

Well, you could replay the conversation I gave as an example elsewhere
to see if it sounds ridiculous or not, but what we've encountered here
is the problem of whether something should be given a distinctive
identity or a derivative identity. A long time ago, and possibly
continuing to this day, people complained about how nearly every Python
package, module or program had names starting or ending with "Py" -
announcing a module in a Python newsgroup and giving it a name starting
with "Py" seemed somewhat redundant, and there was always the issue of
not being able to scan long lists of packages comfortably, just like
with all the KDE application names that start with the letter K.

But even without "the curse of Py", many people don't just choose
arbitrary names for their packages: it often makes sense to include
related technologies in the name (eg. XML, XSLT, ado, dav), or to use a
descriptive component, possibly in shortened form (eg. auth, bayes,
bio, Cal). Yes, a search will often bring forth the right resource
regardless of what it's called, but many people underestimate their own
searching skills and overestimate what other people can find via things
like Google.

Of course, programs may downplay Python as the implementation
technology because the underlying technical details are mostly
irrelevant to end-users (eg. BitTorrent, b3, Eric, Glarf), but if we
look at distinctively named packages, we can see that they often
attempt to define their own identity distinct from Python (eg.
BeautifulSoup, Dabo, DejaVu, Django, Twisted, Zope), frequently because
they seek to be the primary point of reference for developers -
developing in Twisted or Zope is more specialised than just developing
things in Python. Some of the distinctively named package names employ
metaphors and/or cultural references that possibly make them more
memorable, but they don't necessarily make the names easy to guess.

So should a service for finding Python packages have a distinct
identity? It is possible that a package index could be someone's
principal view of the Python world ("I go to Camelot to get... what is
it I get there?"), but the things that emerge from such a service
aren't just downloads that have little in common with each other.
Consequently, I don't think a descriptive name, derived from the name
of the technology, is sensibly avoided in this case.

Paul

The problem I have with the cheese-shop is less a naming but a
usability issue. In some commercial projects that involve Python I
already integrated SQLite as a local database for storing and
retrieving all kind of configuration data as well as session data,
failure statistics etc. I also extended a Python console in order to
send SQL commands directly using this syntax "$ select * from reports
where...". I should mention that this kind of integration was one of
the most acknowledged features by those who where Python sceptics. I
wonder if creating a database client, integreting it with a Python
console and shipping it with a Python setup would not leave behind all
other solutions in the field? BTW I'm not only intererested in the
functionality of a package but how well it performs how well it is
tested etc. The packages checked into the cheese-shop obtain already a
rough classification. If classification schemes become more usable it
is likely that they could be extended.

Kay

[Scott David Daniels]

Just wrote:

In article <f5********************************@4ax.com>,
Dennis Lee Bieber <wl*****@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 13:30:43 +1100, Tim Churches
<tc***@optushome.com.au> declaimed the following in comp.lang.python:

Would it be possible to rename "Cheese Shop" as "Bright Side of Life"?

I think I'd prefer "The Larch"...
Or just "SPAM" (<something> Python <something> Modules ?)

Standard Python Archive (of) Modules?

Some of these names are so much fun that I'd be happy to have
http://cheeseshop.python.org
http://larch.python.org
and http://spam.python.org

all get to the same page.

--Scott David Daniels
sc***********@acm.org

[Michael Tobis]

I like cheeseshop just fine, but have been a Monty Python fan since
they appeared on the CBC in, I think, 1969. I'm one of those people who
is always surprised when a MP bon mot is greeted with confusion and the
suspicion that I have finally lost my mind altogether. So...

If we are moving to the snake motif (which probably would be better
marketing):

"Pythons lay eggs which they arrange in a pile. They coil around the
pile until all eggs have hatched. Since pythons cannot regulate their
internal body temperature, they cannot incubate their eggs per se;
instead, they raise the temperature of their eggs by small movements of
their body-essentially, they "shiver". This is one of only a few
documented cases of parental behaviour in snakes."
--Wikipedia article "python"

Pythons build no nests. Their eggs are found in coils. coil.python.org
?

Tadpoles ( http://python.org/images/python-logo.gif ) are immature
frogs. If we keep the logo, we can change the name of the language to
"frog". Then the eggs would be found in lilypad.frog.org . I personally
do not like this choice but it would have the virtue of consistency.
(Did I mention that I don't like the logo?)

mt

[Torsten Bronger]

Hallöchen!

"Michael Tobis" <mt****@gmail.com> writes:

[...]

Pythons build no nests. Their eggs are found in coils. coil.python.org
?

Better eggs.python.org. Would support the spread of the new file
format, too.

Tschö,
Torsten.

--
Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetus ICQ 264-296-646