Python Developers Handbook

[wooks]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tem=5206943952

[Terry Reedy]

"wooks" <wo****@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tem=5206943952

Are you the seller flogging his item? We really don't need every auction
listing for Python books copied to this forum. Please don't repeat.

TJR

[wooks]

I am somewhat nonplussed that the opportunity to buy a Python book
cheaply is off limits for this NG. There have been alot of hits and as
there are very few Python books listed on Ebay I presume they came from
here.

I'm sorry if you took offence . I am just trying to find a new home for
a book that I have finally accepted that I am never going to get round
to reading and as I am unemployed right now every little helps.

[Lucas Raab]

Terry Reedy wrote:

"wooks" <wo****@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@g49g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tem=5206943952

Are you the seller flogging his item? We really don't need every auction
listing for Python books copied to this forum. Please don't repeat.

TJR

I don't think that was his intention.

--
--------------------------
Lucas Raab
lvraab"@"earthlink.net
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AIM: Phoenix11890
MSN: dotpyfe "@" gmail.com
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ICQ: 324767918
Yahoo: Phoenix11890

[Terry Reedy]

"wooks" <wo****@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...

I am somewhat nonplussed
Since you reponded, I will mention a couple points of newsgroup ettiquete.

First, a bare URL is or is close to being spam. It could have been spit
out automatically by an seller program. It requires that readers go thru
the bother of starting a browser, and possibly establishing a connection in
order to decide whether they want to go to the bother of starting a browser
and possibly establishing a connection.

So URLs should be accompanied by the bare minimum of info needed to decide
make such a decision. This applies even to posts announcing giveaways (of
code, for instance). For a book, author, title, date, price (incl.
shipping), and ship-from location should be about enough.

Second, a person posting a sales link, even if such is allowed, should
identify himself (truthfully) as the seller, a friend, or just an
interested observer or reviewer.
I'm sorry if you took offence.

Perhaps you have never seen a newgroup ruined by commercial announcements
like I have.

Terry J. Reedy

[Lucas Raab]

Terry Reedy wrote:

"wooks" <wo****@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:11**********************@z14g2000cwz.googlegr oups.com...

<snip>

Perhaps you have never seen a newgroup ruined by commercial announcements
like I have.

Terry J. Reedy

O wise one, we bow to you with your deep knowledge.

--
--------------------------
Lucas Raab
lvraab"@"earthlink.net
dotpyFE"@"gmail.com
AIM: Phoenix11890
MSN: dotpyfe "@" gmail.com
IRC: lvraab
ICQ: 324767918
Yahoo: Phoenix11890

[Aahz]

In article <cx*****************@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink. net>,
Lucas Raab <do*****@gmail.com> wrote:

Terry Reedy wrote:

Perhaps you have never seen a newgroup ruined by commercial announcements
like I have.

O wise one, we bow to you with your deep knowledge.

If that's sarcasm, I suggest you reconsider your attitude.
--
Aahz (aa**@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n nx prgrmmng.

[Lucas Raab]

Aahz wrote:

In article <cx*****************@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink. net>,
Lucas Raab <do*****@gmail.com> wrote:

Terry Reedy wrote:

Perhaps you have never seen a newgroup ruined by commercial announcements
like I have.

O wise one, we bow to you with your deep knowledge.

If that's sarcasm, I suggest you reconsider your attitude.

Sorry, but Terry just seemed to come off a little too strong. I'm well
aware of the dangers of clicking on a link in an email and the whole
nine yards. I realize that Terry is right, but his attackdog respose was
offputting.

--
--------------------------
Lucas Raab
lvraab"@"earthlink.net
dotpyFE"@"gmail.com
AIM: Phoenix11890
MSN: dotpyfe "@" gmail.com
IRC: lvraab
ICQ: 324767918
Yahoo: Phoenix11890

[wooks]

Thank you. I have taken on board your input.

The link is to an item on ebay entitled the Python Developers Handbook
by Andre Lessa. The starting price of the auction is 5 pounds and costs
5 pounds to shipping as it weighs 1.6kg. The book was published in
2000, it's ISBN is 0672319942 RRP $44.99. It is unread and in like
new condition.

I am the making the post as the seller.

Finally I am not making a commercial announcement as I do not sell
books for a living. I am selling items from my personal library as I
have not had work for quite some time.

I have done my best to correct the errors you pointed out and address
the issues you raised.

[Peter Hansen]

Lucas Raab wrote:

Sorry, but Terry just seemed to come off a little too strong. I'm well
aware of the dangers of clicking on a link in an email and the whole
nine yards. I realize that Terry is right, but his attackdog respose was
offputting.

"Attackdog" is about as far from an accurate description of Terry's
restrained, helpful, and tolerant response as I can imagine.

Stick with just "Terry is right" and let's leave it at that.

-Peter

[Paul Rubin]

"wooks" <wo****@hotmail.com> writes:

I am somewhat nonplussed that the opportunity to buy a Python book
cheaply is off limits for this NG. There have been alot of hits and as
there are very few Python books listed on Ebay I presume they came from
here.

One really annoying thing is when the subject line doesn't indicate
that the message is about an item for sale or for auction. It's also
annoying when the subject says "for sale" but it's really an auction.

If you have a Python book for sale, that's reasonably on-topic for the
newsgroup, but the subject should say "For sale, copy of Python
developer's handbook", and the post should include the selling (not
auction) price. "For sale" can be abbreviated FS.

If it's an auction, use "For auction" or "FA" instead of "For sale" or "FS".

Such posts might still, strictly speaking, be off-charter, but as long
as they're only occasional and noncommercial, and clearly labelled as
described, IMO they are not too bothersome.

[wooks]

I thought that posting a link that contained the word ebay and a
subject title of Python Developers Handbook conveyed all the relevant
information and didn't want to patronise the NG.

I have had 110 hits on the item but seem to have upset 3 people.

I am sorry. I don't have any other Python books to sell so it won't
happen again.

[Aahz]

In article <11**********************@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
wooks <wo****@hotmail.com> wrote:

I am sorry. I don't have any other Python books to sell so it won't
happen again.

The reason people jumped on you is that historically groups get overrun
with "just one ad" posts, and there goes the neighborhood.
--
Aahz (aa**@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n nx prgrmmng.

[Sakesun Roykiattisak]

wooks wrote:

I thought that posting a link that contained the word ebay and a
subject title of Python Developers Handbook conveyed all the relevant
information and didn't want to patronise the NG.

I have had 110 hits on the item but seem to have upset 3 people.
I am sorry. I don't have any other Python books to sell so it won't
happen again.

Don't blame yourself. People get upset by their own mind. Incidents
were taken as false accused.

[wooks]

If I had posted or invited the group to look at my full list of items
rather than just the python book link then I could see where you are
coming from.

If my intention was to "spam" this NG then the complaints as they were
phrased would only have served to make me more determined.

Maybe we will all learn something from each other.

[Andrew Dalke]

wooks wrote:

If I had posted or invited the group to look at my full list of items
rather than just the python book link then I could see where you are
coming from.
Take a look at http://www.templetons.com/brad/spamterm.html
for some of the first spams and reactions thereof.

There's a 30+ year history of posts which one person thinks
is relevant or important and others find off-topic, crass,
and rude. A rough sort of social norms - called netiquette -
have come from that experience.
If my intention was to "spam" this NG then the complaints as they were
phrased would only have served to make me more determined.
The intention is to prevent it from happening in the future.

If your intention is indeed to spam the group then there
are mechanisms to stop you, including such lovely terms as
killfiles and cancelbots. Too much of it and you might find
your account suspended. Or have you not wondered why few
spams make it here?

If your intention is to continue posting then it's a
warning of sorts that as in every community there are social
forms to follow, and often good reasons for those forms.

Terry backed up his response explaining not only the
convention for what you were doing, but also mentioned
(briefly) why he responded in the way he did.
I personally found your original posting blunt. I thought
it was a virus or spam. You see, I don't do eBay and
whenever I see that term in my mail in a URL it's either
a spam or a phishing attack. So I ignored it. If you
really wanted to sell it then following Terry's advice
and holding to social forms would have been better for
your auction. There's little incentive for anyone to
follow that link without knowing more about it.
Maybe we will all learn something from each other.

Hopefully you, but not likely the others involved. As
I said, this sort of thing has a long history and for
anyone who's been doing this for years (like me) there's
little new to learn on the topic.

To give an idea of the history, there's even an RFC
on netiquette from 10 years ago:
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html

The directly relevant part is

- Advertising is welcomed on some lists and Newsgroups, and abhorred
on others! This is another example of knowing your audience
before you post. Unsolicited advertising which is completely
off-topic will most certainly guarantee that you get a lot of
hate mail.

Most assuredly, what Terry sent you is *not* hate mail.
Andrew
da***@dalkescientific.com

[beliavsky]

wooks wrote:

I thought that posting a link that contained the word ebay and a
subject title of Python Developers Handbook conveyed all the relevant
information and didn't want to patronise the NG.

I have had 110 hits on the item but seem to have upset 3 people.

This statement shows a misunderstanding of Usenet. Maybe the majority
of comp.lang.python readers agree with Terry Reedy but did not want to
clog the newsgroup with ditto messages.

[wooks]

<snip>

Most assuredly, what Terry sent you is *not* hate mail.

It was not taken as hate mail. I think Lucas got it spot on.

Thank you for the long lecture on netiquette which I didn't really
need.

Anybody who has read and understood the book "How to win friends and
influence people" would understand what I meant (yes I do own it and no
I am not selling it on ebay).

[wooks]

be*******@aol.com wrote:

wooks wrote:

I thought that posting a link that contained the word ebay and a
subject title of Python Developers Handbook conveyed all the relevant
information and didn't want to patronise the NG.

I have had 110 hits on the item but seem to have upset 3 people.

This statement shows a misunderstanding of Usenet. Maybe the majority
of comp.lang.python readers agree with Terry Reedy but did not want to
clog the newsgroup with ditto messages.

Your understanding of Usenet is that a post has to "appeal" (for the
want of a better word) to the majority of the NG readership.

Look over a hundred people took a look (and the hits are steadily
going up whether despite or because of this thread). I am not going to
posit either way as to whether that amounts to vindication but it does
suggsest that I have not comitted the heinous crime against netiquette
that some people are making out.

[phil]

Not taking a position for or against the original post:

Everytime this comes up, on any group, one little annoying
post results in and endless discussion and sometimes
hurtful flame war.

Perhaps the rest of us should let the moderator handle it
and get back to something interesting, like Python.

<duck> :-}

[Robert Kern]

phil wrote:

Not taking a position for or against the original post:

Everytime this comes up, on any group, one little annoying
post results in and endless discussion and sometimes
hurtful flame war.
Ah, USENET!
Perhaps the rest of us should let the moderator handle it
and get back to something interesting, like Python.

There is no moderator. We are all moderators.

--
Robert Kern
rk***@ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
-- Richard Harter

[Andrew Dalke]

Robert Kern wrote:

There is no moderator. We are all moderators.

I am Spartacus!

We are all Kosh.

- Nicolas Bourbaki

[Robert Kern]

Andrew Dalke wrote:

Robert Kern wrote:

There is no moderator. We are all moderators.

I am Spartacus!

We are all Kosh.

Well, if we're starting on the Vorlon quotes, this one seems germane:

"The avalanche has already begun. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."

--
Robert Kern
rk***@ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
-- Richard Harter

[Aahz]

In article <11**********************@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups .com>,
wooks <wo****@hotmail.com> wrote:

Thank you for the long lecture on netiquette which I didn't really
need.

You obviously do need it given your improper quoting and attributions.
--
Aahz (aa**@pythoncraft.com) <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n nx prgrmmng.

[Maxwell Hammer]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 04:52:12 -0700, wooks wrote:

Your understanding of Usenet is that a post has to "appeal" (for the
want of a better word) to the majority of the NG readership.

Look over a hundred people took a look (and the hits are steadily
going up whether despite or because of this thread). I am not going to
posit either way as to whether that amounts to vindication but it does
suggsest that I have not comitted the heinous crime against netiquette
that some people are making out.

Actually you're making a mistake there:
Maybe 100 people took a look at Wook's book, but a lot more than 100 people
were pissed off at yet another Commercial post.
Next time use the "announce" NG.

Always ask youself...so if 2 billion people did what I'm about to do,
will it make a big stink? Most times the answer is: a huge stink.

Cheers.

[wooks]

I am not mistaken at all and the use of hyperbole (2 billion!!!!)
doesn't make your point .

A post that piques the interest of even 50 people in an NG is a valid
one. No doubt some people would be annoyed about a job posting of a
Python vacancy... others would be interested in it...

The original complainer expanded his complaint to say that I had not
included sufficient information. I addressed that and apologised. For
many that would have been the end of the matter.

Since you want to talk about Usenet at large

1. I have made similar posts regarding books in my library to other
NG's.
2. This is the only NG where anybody has complained (apart from your
postage/starting price is too high).
3. This book has achieved the highest number of hits (179) than any
other book I have promoted in this way. More even than a football book
on the history of the Arsenal v Spurs fixture that I posted to both the
Arsenal and Spurs NG (only managed 160).

So the only NG that complained is the one that showed the most
interest.

What is far more off-topic for this NG are the posts pontificating
about netiquette and usenet when really they are just whinges.

[Dennis Lee Bieber]

On 12 Jun 2005 01:35:21 -0700, "wooks" <wo****@hotmail.com> declaimed
the following in comp.lang.python:

So the only NG that complained is the one that showed the most
interest.
Remember -- this newsgroup is ALSO gateway'd through a mailing
list. The readership may be much larger than your highly focused sports
group; and those receiving the mailing list version may be for critical
of referrals to auctions/sales.

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[wooks]

Arsenal v Spurs.... in baseball that translates to Red Sox v Yankees.