Spiritual Programming (OT, but Python-inspired)

[UrsusMaximus]

While preparing a Python411 podcast about classes and OOP, my mind
wondered far afield. I found myself constructing an extended metaphor
or analogy between the way programs are organized and certain
philosophical ideas. So, going where my better angels dare not, here is
the forbidden fruit of my noodling:

Spiritual Programming:

It seems to me that, if anything of a person survives death in any way,
it must do so in some way very different from that way in which we
exist now.

For now, we live in a temporal world, and once our body and brain
ceases to function, then our mind can no longer function in this
temporal world, and we cease to exist in this temporal world

So, our current consciousness and awareness is a temporal one. We
experience the one way flow of time. We are not actually conscious of
any permanent thing, only of the changing world as time flows forward.

In this sense, we are like the ghost in the machine of a computer
system running a computer program, or programs, written in a procedural
language and style. That is, the instructions in our program flow in a
linear sequence, with each instruction impacting and giving way to the
next instruction. Oh, there are the occasional looping structures, and
even the occasional out-of-left-field chaos causing go-to; but we
nevertheless experience all these things as linear and procedural.

It seems apparent to me that , if anything of us survives it must do so
outside time, and any surviving consciousness could not experience the
same sort of temporal, linear, procedural existence of which we are now
aware. Oh, I can imagine a timeless essence of our "being" existing
timelessly but statically, observing the remnant of our "informational
holes" evolving and dissolving away in the temporal universe; but this
would be a cold survival after all, hardly worthy of the name.

But perhaps there is a non-temporal world of eternity, that has
structures more reminiscent of higher order programming structures. So,
for instance, functional programming takes and builds upon its
procedural predecessors. So maybe our better, more re-useable parts,
that we develop in this temporal existence, are recycled into
functional units in a non-temporal world. There would still be a
direction of logic flow, but it would be a higher order reality than a
linear, procedural one.

But beyond this perhaps we can imagine an object oriented world, one in
which the more functional, re-useable parts of people and things from
this lower, temporal world are re-packaged into objects containing both
functional methods and also parameters of state. These higher order
objects, and the relationships they form amongst themselves, can be
imagined to exist in a more timeless state than mere procedural
programs, or even functional ones, in that the complex object oriented
structures of such a timeless world would hold meaning even when viewed
as a whole, and not just when played linearly like a phonograph record.
There must be some higher order cognate of time, in this object
oriented world, but we are not able to conceive of it at this time. Our
awareness of existence in this higher order world would be very
different than our current awareness of linearly flowing time, but must
be more in the way of sensing the movements of meaning and
relationships amongst the informational matrices of this higher order,
object oriented universe.

One can visualize a universe in which there are are an infinite number
of infinite dimensions, but these dimensions also keep expanding at an
infinite rate forever. This expansion could be thought of as the
cognate of time. Entities in this world could freely move back and
forth in any dimension, and could experience the totality of reality
all at once, but still experience the novelty of "time".

I do not know how Aspect Oriented Programming fits into this picture,
if at all. But one can imagine higher orders of programming logic and
structure than OOP, whether AOP qualifies or some other, yet
undescribed programing paradigm. And, we do not know how many higher
layers of programming structure exist beyond our current technical
understanding.

Perhaps this is one reason why programmers are so passionate, and even
religious, about their programming tools; because they intuitively
sense that we are dealing with ideas that, however crudely, mirror
eternal realities of immense significance.

Ron Stephens
<a href="http://www.awaretek.com/python/index.html">Python411 Podcast
Series</a>

[Claudio Grondi]

There are many ways of going crazy, but the most valuable of them is
this one which makes a genius out of an ordinary man.

Claudio

Ur**********@gmail.com wrote:

While preparing a Python411 podcast about classes and OOP, my mind
wondered far afield. I found myself constructing an extended metaphor
or analogy between the way programs are organized and certain
philosophical ideas. So, going where my better angels dare not, here is
the forbidden fruit of my noodling:

Spiritual Programming:

It seems to me that, if anything of a person survives death in any way,
it must do so in some way very different from that way in which we
exist now.

For now, we live in a temporal world, and once our body and brain
ceases to function, then our mind can no longer function in this
temporal world, and we cease to exist in this temporal world

So, our current consciousness and awareness is a temporal one. We
experience the one way flow of time. We are not actually conscious of
any permanent thing, only of the changing world as time flows forward.

In this sense, we are like the ghost in the machine of a computer
system running a computer program, or programs, written in a procedural
language and style. That is, the instructions in our program flow in a
linear sequence, with each instruction impacting and giving way to the
next instruction. Oh, there are the occasional looping structures, and
even the occasional out-of-left-field chaos causing go-to; but we
nevertheless experience all these things as linear and procedural.

It seems apparent to me that , if anything of us survives it must do so
outside time, and any surviving consciousness could not experience the
same sort of temporal, linear, procedural existence of which we are now
aware. Oh, I can imagine a timeless essence of our "being" existing
timelessly but statically, observing the remnant of our "informational
holes" evolving and dissolving away in the temporal universe; but this
would be a cold survival after all, hardly worthy of the name.

But perhaps there is a non-temporal world of eternity, that has
structures more reminiscent of higher order programming structures. So,
for instance, functional programming takes and builds upon its
procedural predecessors. So maybe our better, more re-useable parts,
that we develop in this temporal existence, are recycled into
functional units in a non-temporal world. There would still be a
direction of logic flow, but it would be a higher order reality than a
linear, procedural one.

But beyond this perhaps we can imagine an object oriented world, one in
which the more functional, re-useable parts of people and things from
this lower, temporal world are re-packaged into objects containing both
functional methods and also parameters of state. These higher order
objects, and the relationships they form amongst themselves, can be
imagined to exist in a more timeless state than mere procedural
programs, or even functional ones, in that the complex object oriented
structures of such a timeless world would hold meaning even when viewed
as a whole, and not just when played linearly like a phonograph record.
There must be some higher order cognate of time, in this object
oriented world, but we are not able to conceive of it at this time. Our
awareness of existence in this higher order world would be very
different than our current awareness of linearly flowing time, but must
be more in the way of sensing the movements of meaning and
relationships amongst the informational matrices of this higher order,
object oriented universe.

One can visualize a universe in which there are are an infinite number
of infinite dimensions, but these dimensions also keep expanding at an
infinite rate forever. This expansion could be thought of as the
cognate of time. Entities in this world could freely move back and
forth in any dimension, and could experience the totality of reality
all at once, but still experience the novelty of "time".

I do not know how Aspect Oriented Programming fits into this picture,
if at all. But one can imagine higher orders of programming logic and
structure than OOP, whether AOP qualifies or some other, yet
undescribed programing paradigm. And, we do not know how many higher
layers of programming structure exist beyond our current technical
understanding.

Perhaps this is one reason why programmers are so passionate, and even
religious, about their programming tools; because they intuitively
sense that we are dealing with ideas that, however crudely, mirror
eternal realities of immense significance.

Ron Stephens
<a href="http://www.awaretek.com/python/index.html">Python411 Podcast
Series</a>

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 13:38:47 -0800, UrsusMaximus wrote:

It seems to me that, if anything of a person survives death in any way,
it must do so in some way very different from that way in which we
exist now.

[snip]

I don't dare ask where your evidence for this hypothesis is, but I will
ask what are your reasons for imagining this? What is the chain of thought
that leads from:

Step 1: We live in a temporal world.

to:

Step N: Our ghost/soul must therefore live in a timeless state.

?

Apart from wishful thinking of course. That's always the major component
in any reasoning about the afterlife. Life is a process, not a thing --
when a clock runs down and stops ticking, there is no essence of ticking
that keeps going, the gears just stop. When I stop walking, there is no
spirit of walk that survives me coming to a halt. I just stop walking.
--
Steven.

[BartlebyScrivener]

"The highest activities of consciousness have their origins in the
physical occurrences of the brain just as the loveliest of melodies are
not too sublime to be expressed by notes."--Somerset Maugham

[Neal Becker]

Steven D'Aprano wrote:

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 13:38:47 -0800, UrsusMaximus wrote:

It seems to me that, if anything of a person survives death in any way,
it must do so in some way very different from that way in which we
exist now.

[snip]

I don't dare ask where your evidence for this hypothesis is, but I will
ask what are your reasons for imagining this? What is the chain of thought
that leads from:

Step 1: We live in a temporal world.

to:

Step N: Our ghost/soul must therefore live in a timeless state.

?

Apart from wishful thinking of course. That's always the major component
in any reasoning about the afterlife. Life is a process, not a thing --
when a clock runs down and stops ticking, there is no essence of ticking
that keeps going, the gears just stop. When I stop walking, there is no
spirit of walk that survives me coming to a halt. I just stop walking.

Wishful thinking is only 1 part. Historically, a big part of the hypothesis
of an afterlife is control. As in, "you peasants must obey, and suffer
your difficult lives because you will be rewarded after death." An even
more fundamental reason is that certain belief systems are viral - in that
they are self-perpetuating.

[Peter Hansen]

Steven D'Aprano wrote:

Life is a process, not a thing --
when a clock runs down and stops ticking, there is no essence of ticking
that keeps going, the gears just stop. When I stop walking, there is no
spirit of walk that survives me coming to a halt. I just stop walking.

Yet when one listens to a clock or other repetitive sound for long
enough, when that sound stops one continues to hear a sort of
"after-image" of the sound.

Somewhat like when someone sings a jingle and you just can't get it out
of your head:

"plop plop fizz fizz, oh what a relief it is..."

Perhaps something similar happens with the "ticking" that we call life,
and what happens after death:

"plop plop fizz fizz, oh what a release this is..."

-Peter

;-)

[David Trudgett]

Ur**********@gmail.com writes:

While preparing a Python411 podcast about classes and OOP, my mind
wondered far afield. I found myself constructing an extended metaphor
or analogy between the way programs are organized and certain
philosophical ideas. So, going where my better angels dare not, here is
the forbidden fruit of my noodling:

Thanks for your thoughts on this. They give rise to some interesting
lines of contemplation.

David

--

David Trudgett
http://www.zeta.org.au/~wpower/

It is seldom that any liberty is lost all at once.

-- David Hume

[Tom Anderson]

On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 Ur**********@gmail.com wrote:

In this sense, we are like the ghost in the machine of a computer
system running a computer program, or programs, written in a procedural
language and style.

Makes sense - i heard that Steve Russell invented continuations after
reading the Tibetan Book of the Dead.

tom

--
Chance? Or sinister scientific conspiracy?

[eduardo.padoan]

> Apart from wishful thinking of course. That's always the major component

in any reasoning about the afterlife. Life is a process, not a thing --
when a clock runs down and stops ticking, there is no essence of ticking
that keeps going, the gears just stop. When I stop walking, there is no
spirit of walk that survives me coming to a halt. I just stop walking.

QOTYear!

[Kay Schluehr]

Ur**********@gmail.com wrote:

While preparing a Python411 podcast about classes and OOP, my mind
wondered far afield. I found myself constructing an extended metaphor
or analogy between the way programs are organized and certain
philosophical ideas. So, going where my better angels dare not, here is
the forbidden fruit of my noodling:

Spiritual Programming:

It seems to me that, if anything of a person survives death in any way,
it must do so in some way very different from that way in which we
exist now.

For now, we live in a temporal world, and once our body and brain
ceases to function, then our mind can no longer function in this
temporal world, and we cease to exist in this temporal world

So, our current consciousness and awareness is a temporal one. We
experience the one way flow of time. We are not actually conscious of
any permanent thing, only of the changing world as time flows forward.

In this sense, we are like the ghost in the machine of a computer
system running a computer program, or programs, written in a procedural
language and style. That is, the instructions in our program flow in a
linear sequence, with each instruction impacting and giving way to the
next instruction. Oh, there are the occasional looping structures, and
even the occasional out-of-left-field chaos causing go-to; but we
nevertheless experience all these things as linear and procedural.

It seems apparent to me that , if anything of us survives it must do so
outside time, and any surviving consciousness could not experience the
same sort of temporal, linear, procedural existence of which we are now
aware. Oh, I can imagine a timeless essence of our "being" existing
timelessly but statically, observing the remnant of our "informational
holes" evolving and dissolving away in the temporal universe; but this
would be a cold survival after all, hardly worthy of the name.

But perhaps there is a non-temporal world of eternity, that has
structures more reminiscent of higher order programming structures. So,
for instance, functional programming takes and builds upon its
procedural predecessors. So maybe our better, more re-useable parts,
that we develop in this temporal existence, are recycled into
functional units in a non-temporal world. There would still be a
direction of logic flow, but it would be a higher order reality than a
linear, procedural one.

But beyond this perhaps we can imagine an object oriented world, one in
which the more functional, re-useable parts of people and things from
this lower, temporal world are re-packaged into objects containing both
functional methods and also parameters of state. These higher order
objects, and the relationships they form amongst themselves, can be
imagined to exist in a more timeless state than mere procedural
programs, or even functional ones, in that the complex object oriented
structures of such a timeless world would hold meaning even when viewed
as a whole, and not just when played linearly like a phonograph record.
There must be some higher order cognate of time, in this object
oriented world, but we are not able to conceive of it at this time. Our
awareness of existence in this higher order world would be very
different than our current awareness of linearly flowing time, but must
be more in the way of sensing the movements of meaning and
relationships amongst the informational matrices of this higher order,
object oriented universe.

One can visualize a universe in which there are are an infinite number
of infinite dimensions, but these dimensions also keep expanding at an
infinite rate forever. This expansion could be thought of as the
cognate of time. Entities in this world could freely move back and
forth in any dimension, and could experience the totality of reality
all at once, but still experience the novelty of "time".

I do not know how Aspect Oriented Programming fits into this picture,
if at all. But one can imagine higher orders of programming logic and
structure than OOP, whether AOP qualifies or some other, yet
undescribed programing paradigm. And, we do not know how many higher
layers of programming structure exist beyond our current technical
understanding.

Perhaps this is one reason why programmers are so passionate, and even
religious, about their programming tools; because they intuitively
sense that we are dealing with ideas that, however crudely, mirror
eternal realities of immense significance.

Ron Stephens
<a href="http://www.awaretek.com/python/index.html">Python411 Podcast
Series</a>

AOP corresponds to a holographic worldview where each single object is
in fact a composition and we obtain nonlocal correspondences between
parts of the whole pattern. The aspects in an AOP program are the
implicite order of a program that is weaved by aspects. The spiritual
meaning is that of the gnostic believe in a transcentendal order that
pervades existing being but is nevertheless hidden. Its relationship is
less close to time as it is to space. The implicate order is of course
state- and timeless.

Kay

[Shane Hathaway]

Ur**********@gmail.com wrote:

Perhaps this is one reason why programmers are so passionate, and even
religious, about their programming tools; because they intuitively
sense that we are dealing with ideas that, however crudely, mirror
eternal realities of immense significance.

While I don't associate any spiritual significance with programming, I
do think that the choices we've made in the field of programming reflect
deeply upon human cognition.

A modern computer is a thoroughly abstract mathematical machine, so
programmers can choose almost any abstraction to solve a problem. But
it turns out that some abstractions fit our minds better than others, so
programmers usually apply a small set of abstractions many times. So if
we could categorize and chart the space of all programming abstractions
that we have found most useful, we might learn a little about how our
minds work. The research could be valuable for AI.

Shane

[Stuart D. Gathman]

On Mon, 02 Jan 2006 19:05:04 -0500, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

I don't dare ask where your evidence for this hypothesis is, but I will
ask what are your reasons for imagining this? What is the chain of
thought that leads from:

Step 1: We live in a temporal world.

to:

Step N: Our ghost/soul must therefore live in a timeless state.

I can throw in some historical evidence against (assuming you accept the
Gospels as historical, that is - at least they are documents). Christian
doctrine paraphrased in the programming mindset is that this temporal
world will be rebooted - destroyed and replaced with a "new heavens and
new earth". The new earth will have time, but is purged of all evil. The
goal of Christian practice is to cooperate with God as He cleans the
wickedness out of our souls so that we can inhabit the new creation. The
cleaning experience is not always pleasant. Taking a hard objective look
at the "goodness" of your behaviour can be humbling and embarrassing.

[Nicola Musatti]

Peter Hansen wrote:

Steven D'Aprano wrote:

Life is a process, not a thing --
when a clock runs down and stops ticking, there is no essence of ticking
that keeps going, the gears just stop. When I stop walking, there is no
spirit of walk that survives me coming to a halt. I just stop walking.

Yet when one listens to a clock or other repetitive sound for long
enough, when that sound stops one continues to hear a sort of
"after-image" of the sound.

Somewhat like when someone sings a jingle and you just can't get it out
of your head:

"plop plop fizz fizz, oh what a relief it is..."

Perhaps something similar happens with the "ticking" that we call life,
and what happens after death:

"plop plop fizz fizz, oh what a release this is..."

I have an even more eerie (eerier?) example: I rememeber a family
friend whose husband had recently died saying that she could still feel
his presence about the house.

Yet all these examples appear to me to be better explained as instances
of a form of physiological or psichological inertia than as indications
of the existence of some form of meta reality.

More-platonic-than-pythonic-ly y'rs,
Nicola Musatti

[Piet van Oostrum]

>>>>> Ur**********@gmail.com (U) wrote:

U> While preparing a Python411 podcast about classes and OOP, my mind
U> wondered far afield. I found myself constructing an extended metaphor
U> or analogy between the way programs are organized and certain
U> philosophical ideas. So, going where my better angels dare not, here is
U> the forbidden fruit of my noodling: U> Spiritual Programming: U> It seems to me that, if anything of a person survives death in any way,
U> it must do so in some way very different from that way in which we
U> exist now. U> For now, we live in a temporal world, and once our body and brain
U> ceases to function, then our mind can no longer function in this
U> temporal world, and we cease to exist in this temporal world

[snip]

If you have a program running on a computer and the thing is too old to
survive then you could dump its state to another computer and continue
running there. Or you could archive the state for some time and resume it
when it is convenient.

I imagine that something similar would be possible with my state of mind.
--
Piet van Oostrum <pi**@cs.uu.nl>
URL: http://www.cs.uu.nl/~piet [PGP 8DAE142BE17999C4]
Private email: pi**@vanoostrum.org

[Fuzzyman]

Our psyche is formed by external forces, and only exists in interaction
with them. (Our inner self is not separate from our external
influences).

As we are part of something bigger than ourselves, the death of our
physical body is not an end to the 'psychological' forces that we
perceive to be our 'self'.

c.f. the research that Jung did to demostrate the common unconscious.
(The individual psyche has it's roots in something much wider than the
individual).

All the best,

Fuzzyman
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml

[Peter Hansen]

Nicola Musatti wrote:

Yet all these examples appear to me to be better explained as instances
of a form of physiological or psichological inertia than as indications
of the existence of some form of meta reality.

But can you define "physiological or psychological inertia" in such a
way that the term "meta reality" doesn't cover them, too? ;-)