Web framework

[Gianluca Sartori]

Hi guys,

What web framework do you suggest to develop with? I had a look both at
Nevow and Quixote. These seemes to be the most appreciated by the
community. Anyway, I had no luck looking for a complete and coherent
documentation.

Thanks for any suggestion,
Gianluca

[dowskimania]

Gianluca Sartori wrote:

Hi guys,

What web framework do you suggest to develop with?
I really like CherryPy. It has a very intuitive design. A "directory"
is an object and the "files" in it are methods. URL variables are
passed as arguments to the methods. The CherryPy site has a good
tutorial and some examples that should get you up and running fairly
quickly.

http://www.cherrypy.org
Thanks for any suggestion,
Gianluca

Hope this helps.

Christian

[Jeff Reavis]

You may also want to look at Spyce. It is similar to JSP,PHP, or ASP.
There are some good docs and examples at the site.

http://spyce.sourceforge.net/

-jjr

[Fred Pacquier]

"Gianluca Sartori" <g.*******@gmail.com> said :

Hi guys,
What web framework do you suggest to develop with? I had a look both at
Nevow and Quixote. These seemes to be the most appreciated by the
community. Anyway, I had no luck looking for a complete and coherent
documentation.

Snakelets is nice, clean, simple to get started, and well documented.
Karrigell is about in the same league. CherryPy is a step above (all IMO of
course).

--
YAFAP : http://www.multimania.com/fredp/

[Phil Jackson]

"Gianluca Sartori" <g.*******@gmail.com> writes:

What web framework do you suggest to develop with?

I tend to use mod_python.

Phil

[Gianluca Sartori]

Hi Christian, thanks for your replay. I gave a quick look at cherryPy
too, but I had the impression it wasn't enought to be used in a real
world contest. What about performances? Can I safely consider it to
develop an Intranet/Extranet? My main concern is with scalability. What
will happend if my user-base will grow? What if I had to add web
services interface (say XML-RPC or SOAP) to my application? Can I do it
in a second time without spending too much time/money?

Thanks,
Gianluca

[Tim Jarman]

Gianluca Sartori wrote:

Hi Christian, thanks for your replay. I gave a quick look at cherryPy
too, but I had the impression it wasn't enought to be used in a real
world contest. What about performances? Can I safely consider it to
develop an Intranet/Extranet? My main concern is with scalability. What
will happend if my user-base will grow? What if I had to add web
services interface (say XML-RPC or SOAP) to my application? Can I do it
in a second time without spending too much time/money?

Thanks,
Gianluca

Hi Gianluca,
In what respects do you think CherryPy falls short? There are some nice
performance stats on the CherryPy wiki (look under the FAQ) and in any case
you can run it behind Apache. It handles XML-RPC out of the box - not sure
about SOAP, but the design is sufficiently modular to add that in if
required. There are real-world sites using it in production; again, check
out the wiki.

HTH,
Tim

--
Website: www DOT jarmania FULLSTOP com

[Carlos Ribeiro]

On 10 Mar 2005 03:30:28 -0800, Gianluca Sartori <g.*******@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Christian, thanks for your replay. I gave a quick look at cherryPy
too, but I had the impression it wasn't enought to be used in a real
world contest. What about performances? Can I safely consider it to
develop an Intranet/Extranet? My main concern is with scalability. What
will happend if my user-base will grow? What if I had to add web
services interface (say XML-RPC or SOAP) to my application? Can I do it
in a second time without spending too much time/money?

Far from true :-) A few data points (taken from
http://www.cherrypy.org/wiki/CherryPySpeed):

- In 99% of the cases, the answer is "this depends on your actual
application code, not on CherryPy itself".

- CherryPy averages 429 requests/second, in threaded mode (which
includes the penalty for thread-switching), in a Pentium 1.6 Ghz, 1GB
RAM, under Windows XP 2. The test was run using ab, the load testing
tool from the apache project.

- In practice, we found it easier to exceed available bandwidth than
to exceed CherryPy's limits. With something as low as 200 requests/s
one can get a few MB/s of throughput (that's measurable, but I don't
have the numbers for this test; but to the math yourself, for a 10Kb
page...). Of course, Intranet sites do not suffer from this problem,
but the userbase is usually limited.

- The worst case scenario is when one have lots of small objects to
serve. This usually means static content (icons & small gif files),
and can be greatly accelerated by running CherryPy under a caching
frontend - either Apache, or even squid in web acceleration mode work
just fine.

While you are at it, check also this page:

http://www.cherrypy.org/wiki/CherryPyProductionSetup

--
Carlos Ribeiro
Consultoria em Projetos
blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
mail: ca********@gmail.com
mail: ca********@yahoo.com

[Chris]

In article <11*********************@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups. com>,
do*********@gmail.com says...

Gianluca Sartori wrote:

Hi guys,

What web framework do you suggest to develop with?

I really like CherryPy. It has a very intuitive design. A "directory"
is an object and the "files" in it are methods. URL variables are
passed as arguments to the methods. The CherryPy site has a good
tutorial and some examples that should get you up and running fairly
quickly.

http://www.cherrypy.org

Thanks for any suggestion,
Gianluca

Hope this helps.

Christian

Does CherryPy require a python installation on the client side?

[Lutz Horn]

Chris <se***@yahoo.com> wrote:

Does CherryPy require a python installation on the client side?

No, it only sends HTML-pages and other media to the client's browser.

[Gianluca Sartori]

Well, my concern here was mostly about SSL support. It seems it's not
supported natively. Anyway, I'm looking at all those frameworks by a
'pre-evaluation' point of you. so I'm fully trusting what I can read on
their websites...

[andre.p.meyer]

Gianluca Sartori wrote:

Hi guys,

What web framework do you suggest to develop with? I had a look both at Nevow and Quixote. These seemes to be the most appreciated by the
community. Anyway, I had no luck looking for a complete and coherent
documentation.

Thanks for any suggestion,
Gianluca

[andre.p.meyer]

You should definitely have a look at Zope 3. There is good
documentation available and it can do a lot of good stuff.

[Sridhar]

I'd say Nevow! For apache setup, you might be interested in my wsgi [1]
implementation.

[1]
http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/t...ch/001293.html

[Joe]

On 13 Mar 2005 01:13:00 -0800, an***********@gmail.com wrote:

You should definitely have a look at Zope 3. There is good
documentation available and it can do a lot of good stuff.

But then, the thing I hate about Zope, is that source code is not
accessible with normal development tools since it's stuck in the ZODB.

Joe.

[Diez B. Roggisch]

Joe wrote:

On 13 Mar 2005 01:13:00 -0800, an***********@gmail.com wrote:

You should definitely have a look at Zope 3. There is good
documentation available and it can do a lot of good stuff.

But then, the thing I hate about Zope, is that source code is not
accessible with normal development tools since it's stuck in the ZODB.

Plain wrong. You can access them via FTP and WEBDAV. In kde under linux, all
file-io can be done through these protocols, so you can operate on them as
if they were local files.
--
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch

[Joe]

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:20:34 +0100, "Diez B. Roggisch"
<de*********@web.de> wrote:

Plain wrong. You can access them via FTP and WEBDAV.

Not wrong. I am aware of this, but it's not like that many development
tools can work through FTP or WebDav... Besides, how to have the
source code under source control if it's stuck in the ZODB?

Joe.

[Josef Meile]

Hi Joe,

Not wrong. I am aware of this, but it's not like that many development
tools can work through FTP or WebDav... Besides, how to have the
source code under source control if it's stuck in the ZODB?

I guess you are reffering to "Python Scripts" and "ZClasses", which
indeed are stuck in the ZODB. But in fact you can write external python
products for zope, which reside on your file system. What is stuck in
the ZODB would be the instances of those products.

Regards,
Josef

[Diez B. Roggisch]

> Not wrong. I am aware of this, but it's not like that many development

tools can work through FTP or WebDav ..
If your tools can't, then you can still use ftp clients to push the files to
the server. Actually lots of web-development is done by working locally on
the files, then publishing these to the server. Think of the horror to
create apache modules with certain lib dependencies (e.g. oracle) under
windows. Some people I know even abuse CVS for uploading their files to the
server - which renders CVS pretty useless.

And quite a few tools _are_ capable of directly using ftp as storage
backend. (x)emacs for example.
Besides, how to have the
source code under source control if it's stuck in the ZODB?

You can still fetch it using webdav and ftp and stick it into CVS/SVN.
--
Regards,

Diez B. Roggisch

[Joe]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:18:10 +0100, Josef Meile <jm****@hotmail.com>
wrote:

I guess you are reffering to "Python Scripts" and "ZClasses", which
indeed are stuck in the ZODB. But in fact you can write external python
products for zope, which reside on your file system. What is stuck in
the ZODB would be the instances of those products.

Right, but it's still a pain. Incidently, this is the reason for
Zope-inspired frameworks like CherryPy, ie. Zope with ol' fashioned
dev tools.

Joe.

[Lee Harr]

On 2005-03-14, Joe <ju*******@if.you.want.to.contact.me> wrote:

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:20:34 +0100, "Diez B. Roggisch"
<de*********@web.de> wrote:

Plain wrong. You can access them via FTP and WEBDAV.

Not wrong. I am aware of this, but it's not like that many development
tools can work through FTP or WebDav... Besides, how to have the
source code under source control if it's stuck in the ZODB?

All of the KDE tools can use ftp or webdav natively.

I actually use kate mostly and access my zope content
through webdavs (webdav over ssl).

It is true that some content is less amenable to
storage in source control, but if you create on-disk
products instead of zclasses it is less of a problem.

That said, how about a ZODB storage class that sits
on top of an svn store? That might be killer!

[Carlos Ribeiro]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:36:36 GMT, Lee Harr <le*@example.com> wrote:

That said, how about a ZODB storage class that sits
on top of an svn store? That might be killer!

I don't know very much about the ZODB, having using it very little.
What you say seems to be possible -- implement the ZODB 'protocol'
over a SVN backend... not sure about how things such as the
authentication system would be mapped though. But it's an intriguing
idea.

--
Carlos Ribeiro
Consultoria em Projetos
blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
mail: ca********@gmail.com
mail: ca********@yahoo.com

[Benji York]

Joe wrote:

On 13 Mar 2005 01:13:00 -0800, an***********@gmail.com wrote:

You should definitely have a look at Zope 3. There is good
documentation available and it can do a lot of good stuff.

But then, the thing I hate about Zope, is that source code is not
accessible with normal development tools since it's stuck in the ZODB.

That's not entirely true of Zope 2, and not true at all for Zope 3. All
code for Zope 3 is loaded from the file system. I've been happily
hacking away on Z3 for months using Vim, Subversion, grep, etc. Some
have even been know to use Emacs, the horror! :)

Zope 3 was designed from the ground-up to be friendlier to Python
programmers that don't have a great deal of Zope 2 experience. Being a
long-time Python programmer, I've *really* enjoyed Zope 3.

There is a slide show introduction at
http://www.zope.org/DevHome/Wikis/De...rammerTutorial
(http://tinyurl.com/68qwj).

There are two Zope 3 books out. A draft of one is available at
http://www.zope.org/DevHome/Wikis/De...Page/Zope3Book
(http://tinyurl.com/5nj66).

Also note that Z3 comes with many doctests that help developers
understand the various parts of the system.
--
Benji York

[Joe]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:07:34 -0500, Benji York <be***@benjiyork.com>
wrote:

That's not entirely true of Zope 2, and not true at all for Zope 3. All
code for Zope 3 is loaded from the file system.

Great news :-) I'll go check it out.

Joe.

[Stephen Thorne]

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:21:27 -0800, Venkat B <ve******@yahoo.com> wrote:

I'd say Nevow! For apache setup, you might be interested in my wsgi [1]
implementation.

Hi Sridhar,

Are you aware of Nevow's "integrability" with the webservers (CGIHTTPServer
in particular) that come packaged with Python itself ?

Nevow functions as its own web server. You don't need CGIHTTPServer,
you just run twisted.web instead.

Stpehen.