distutils and Debian

[Colin J. Williams]

The distutils download page has:
--------------------------------------------------------
Current stable release

The current stable release is Distutils 1.0.2; you can download it as:

* Distutils-1.0.2.tar.gz (source distribution) (233k)
* Distutils-1.0.2.zip (source distribution) (274k)
* Distutils-1.0.2.win32.exe (Windows installer) (187k)

If you are running Python version 1.6 or later, you do not need to
download the Distutils: they're included with Python. However, if you
have a Distutils more recent than your Python, you might want to install
it: see the Distutils README.txt file. Version 1.0.2 is identical to the
version included in Python 2.1.
---------------------------------------------------------

With Debian, it seems that distutils is not included for
Python 2.2 or 2.3.

Should this be reported as a Debian bug?

Colin W.

[Sam Holden]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:08:09 -0500, Colin J. Williams <cj*@sympatico.ca> wrote:

The distutils download page has:
--------------------------------------------------------
Current stable release

The current stable release is Distutils 1.0.2; you can download it as:

* Distutils-1.0.2.tar.gz (source distribution) (233k)
* Distutils-1.0.2.zip (source distribution) (274k)
* Distutils-1.0.2.win32.exe (Windows installer) (187k)

If you are running Python version 1.6 or later, you do not need to
download the Distutils: they're included with Python. However, if you
have a Distutils more recent than your Python, you might want to install
it: see the Distutils README.txt file. Version 1.0.2 is identical to the
version included in Python 2.1.
---------------------------------------------------------

With Debian, it seems that distutils is not included for
Python 2.2 or 2.3.

Should this be reported as a Debian bug?

No.

It's in the python2.x-dev packages.

Debian often split large things up into smaller packages, distutils
isn't needed by the basic debian user who only installs debian
packages after all.

"apt-cache search distutils" finds it easily enough for those who do
want it.

--
Sam Holden

[Istvan Albert]

Sam Holden wrote:

Should this be reported as a Debian bug?

No.

I would say yes ... there is no logic in crippling
a standard python distribution. What else is missing?

Istvan.

[Robert Kern]

Istvan Albert wrote:

Sam Holden wrote:

[Colin J. Williams wrote:]

Should this be reported as a Debian bug?

No.

I would say yes ... there is no logic in crippling
a standard python distribution. What else is missing?

It's a matter of Debian policy to split things into runtime packages and
development packages. A Debian package that needs Python to run need
only depend on the main python package. Most packages that need Python
*don't* need distutils or the C headers or the static library.

Debian users know, or ought to, that if they want to compile
extra-Debian software that needs Python (or whatever) they need to
install the appropriate *-dev packages.

This is a pretty standard split thats followed by several free UN*X
distributions (I'm tempted to say "most" but I don't have personal
experience with enough to do that).

--
Robert Kern
rk***@ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
-- Richard Harter

[Sam Holden]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 20:03:51 -0500,
Istvan Albert <ia*****@mailblocks.com> wrote:

Sam Holden wrote:

Should this be reported as a Debian bug?

No.

I would say yes ... there is no logic in crippling
a standard python distribution. What else is missing?

If it's anything like perl then lots of things. But they
are easily installed via their seperate packages.

The documentation being the big obvious thing.
Tkinter being another.

The logic might be to make small installs possible. If all
of "standard python" was put in one package then debian
couldn't use python for writing things which might be
wanted on small systems.

It might also make sense to split "pure python" and "binary"
packages up since the "pure python" packages might be sharable
across architecures, but I don't think that is done.

"no logic" seems a bit extreme. Cost exceeding the benefit
might be true, but of the top of my head there's two vaguely
"logical" reasons.

--
Sam Holden

[Istvan Albert]

Robert Kern wrote:

only depend on the main python package. Most packages that need Python
*don't* need distutils or the C headers or the static library.

The *devel* branch in my interpretation means the distribution
that contains the files used during the development of the
application itself. For example the C headers
that you mention.

But it should not mean removing support
for installing new scripts for the runtime
application!

Distutils is primarily about installing and distributing
python programs and it has little to do with developing
python itself. Some packages will not
be installable without the devel branch but removing
distutils to head off that situation seems very odd.

Istvan.

[Robert Kern]

Istvan Albert wrote:

Robert Kern wrote:

only depend on the main python package. Most packages that need Python
*don't* need distutils or the C headers or the static library.

The *devel* branch in my interpretation means the distribution
that contains the files used during the development of the
application itself. For example the C headers
that you mention.

But in Debian's consistent interpretation, it means "for development
*with* the library/interpreter/whatever." If I want to compile a C
program, I need to install libc6-dev. If I want to *develop* glibc, I
get the source. Similar strategies are employed by other free Unices'
package systems.
But it should not mean removing support
for installing new scripts for the runtime
application!
If I want to compile a non-Debian program that uses libpng, I install
libpng-dev. If I want to install a non-Debian Python package, I install
python-dev. <shrug>
Distutils is primarily about installing and distributing
python programs and it has little to do with developing
python itself.
And as I said, your interpretation has nothing to do with the way Debian
and other Linux/BSD/what-have-you distributions use the suffix in their
package names.
Some packages will not
be installable without the devel branch but removing
distutils to head off that situation seems very odd.

Istvan.

--
Robert Kern
rk***@ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
-- Richard Harter

[Colin J. Williams]

Sam Holden wrote:

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 19:08:09 -0500, Colin J. Williams <cj*@sympatico.ca> wrote:

The distutils download page has:
--------------------------------------------------------
Current stable release

The current stable release is Distutils 1.0.2; you can download it as:

* Distutils-1.0.2.tar.gz (source distribution) (233k)
* Distutils-1.0.2.zip (source distribution) (274k)
* Distutils-1.0.2.win32.exe (Windows installer) (187k)

If you are running Python version 1.6 or later, you do not need to
download the Distutils: they're included with Python. However, if you
have a Distutils more recent than your Python, you might want to install
it: see the Distutils README.txt file. Version 1.0.2 is identical to the
version included in Python 2.1.
---------------------------------------------------------

With Debian, it seems that distutils is not included for
Python 2.2 or 2.3.

Should this be reported as a Debian bug?

No.

It's in the python2.x-dev packages.

Debian often split large things up into smaller packages, distutils
isn't needed by the basic debian user who only installs debian
packages after all.

"apt-cache search distutils" finds it easily enough for those who do
want it.

Thanks for pointing this out, but I have checked and Python2.3.4-dev is
installed.

Colin W.

[Colin J. Williams]

Robert Kern wrote:

Istvan Albert wrote:

Sam Holden wrote:

[Colin J. Williams wrote:]

Should this be reported as a Debian bug?

No.

I would say yes ... there is no logic in crippling
a standard python distribution. What else is missing?

It's a matter of Debian policy to split things into runtime packages and
development packages. A Debian package that needs Python to run need
only depend on the main python package. Most packages that need Python
*don't* need distutils or the C headers or the static library.

Debian users know, or ought to, that if they want to compile
extra-Debian software that needs Python (or whatever) they need to
install the appropriate *-dev packages.

You are right, but there is a learning curve for those of us new to Linux.

I have installed the Python*-dev packages, but my present problem
centres on installing distutils.

With >python setup.py install, I get:
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "setup.py", line 30, in ?
packages = ['distutils', 'distutils.command'],
File "/root/downloads/python/Distutils-1.0.2/distutils/core.py", line
102, in setup
_setup_distribution = dist = klass(attrs)
File "/root/downloads/python/Distutils-1.0.2/distutils/dist.py", line
130, in __init__
setattr(self, method_name, getattr(self.metadata, method_name))
AttributeError: DistributionMetadata instance has no attribute 'get___doc__'

I would welcome any suggestion as to how I can work around this.

Colin W.

[Colin J. Williams]

Istvan Albert wrote:

Robert Kern wrote:

only depend on the main python package. Most packages that need Python
*don't* need distutils or the C headers or the static library.

The *devel* branch in my interpretation means the distribution
that contains the files used during the development of the
application itself. For example the C headers
that you mention.

But it should not mean removing support
for installing new scripts for the runtime
application!

Distutils is primarily about installing and distributing
python programs and it has little to do with developing
python itself. Some packages will not
be installable without the devel branch but removing
distutils to head off that situation seems very odd.

Istvan.

I'm inclined to agree with this.

Colin W.

[Robert Kern]

Colin J. Williams wrote:

I have installed the Python*-dev packages, but my present problem
centres on installing distutils.
Why are you trying to install distutils over the one provided by
python-dev? It's probably not a good idea.
With >python setup.py install, I get:
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "setup.py", line 30, in ?
packages = ['distutils', 'distutils.command'],
File "/root/downloads/python/Distutils-1.0.2/distutils/core.py", line
102, in setup
_setup_distribution = dist = klass(attrs)
File "/root/downloads/python/Distutils-1.0.2/distutils/dist.py", line
130, in __init__
setattr(self, method_name, getattr(self.metadata, method_name))
AttributeError: DistributionMetadata instance has no attribute
'get___doc__'

I would welcome any suggestion as to how I can work around this.

I don't have a clue. It seems to be internal to the Distutils-1.0.2
source distribution and not using the distutils from python-dev. I
suggest asking on the distutils mailing list.

--
Robert Kern
rk***@ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
-- Richard Harter

[Colin J. Williams]

Robert Kern wrote:

Colin J. Williams wrote:

I have installed the Python*-dev packages, but my present problem
centres on installing distutils.

Why are you trying to install distutils over the one provided by
python-dev? It's probably not a good idea.

I am doing this because there is no distutils in the Debian packages for
Python2.3.4 or Python 2.3.4-dev.

Colin W.

With >python setup.py install, I get:
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "setup.py", line 30, in ?
packages = ['distutils', 'distutils.command'],
File "/root/downloads/python/Distutils-1.0.2/distutils/core.py",
line 102, in setup
_setup_distribution = dist = klass(attrs)
File "/root/downloads/python/Distutils-1.0.2/distutils/dist.py",
line 130, in __init__
setattr(self, method_name, getattr(self.metadata, method_name))
AttributeError: DistributionMetadata instance has no attribute
'get___doc__'

I would welcome any suggestion as to how I can work around this.

I don't have a clue. It seems to be internal to the Distutils-1.0.2
source distribution and not using the distutils from python-dev. I
suggest asking on the distutils mailing list.

[Mike Meyer]

Robert Kern <rk***@ucsd.edu> writes:

And as I said, your interpretation has nothing to do with the way
Debian and other Linux/BSD/what-have-you distributions use the suffix
in their package names.

BSDs in general use "-devel" to mean the development branch of the
software in question, *not* the tools for those installing software
from some place other than the standard packages distribution. The
Python port installs all of python, including Tkinter.

<mike
--
Mike Meyer <mw*@mired.org> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.

[Sam Holden]

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 13:36:22 -0500, Colin J. Williams <cj*@sympatico.ca> wrote:

Robert Kern wrote:

Colin J. Williams wrote:

I have installed the Python*-dev packages, but my present problem
centres on installing distutils.

Why are you trying to install distutils over the one provided by
python-dev? It's probably not a good idea.

I am doing this because there is no distutils in the Debian packages for
Python2.3.4 or Python 2.3.4-dev.

What debian are you using?

On unstable (x86) I get:
; apt-cache search distutils | grep python2\\.3
python2.3-dev - Header files and a static library for Python (v2.3)
python2.3-scipy-core - low level utilities for scipy (for python 2.3)
; dpkg -L python2.3-dev | grep distutils/__init__
/usr/lib/python2.3/distutils/__init__.py
; python2.3 -V
Python 2.3.4

On stable (x86) I get:
; apt-cache search distutils | grep python2\\.3
python2.3-dev - Header files and a static library for Python (v2.3)
; dpkg -L python2.3-dev | grep distutils/__init__
/usr/lib/python2.3/distutils/__init__.py
; python2.3 -V
Python 2.3b2+

I can't see a python2.3.4 package anywhere...

I you are using stable you should be able to pull 2.3.4 from testing,
assuming it's in there of course (and if not from unstable)...

--
Sam Holden

[Sam Holden]

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 09:45:24 -0500, Colin J. Williams <cj*@sympatico.ca> wrote:

Istvan Albert wrote:

Robert Kern wrote:

only depend on the main python package. Most packages that need Python
*don't* need distutils or the C headers or the static library.

The *devel* branch in my interpretation means the distribution
that contains the files used during the development of the
application itself. For example the C headers
that you mention.

But it should not mean removing support
for installing new scripts for the runtime
application!

Distutils is primarily about installing and distributing
python programs and it has little to do with developing
python itself. Some packages will not
be installable without the devel branch but removing
distutils to head off that situation seems very odd.

Istvan.

I'm inclined to agree with this.

But -dev in debian doesn't mean that.

-dev in debian means the stuff you need to develop *with* that
package. The "python" package allows the running of python scripts
that exist in other packages. The "python-dev" package allows the
creation of new python scripts. Installing a python script
from an external source is equivalent to creating it from this
persepective.

Just like "libc6" allows the running of programs linked with the
c library that exist in other packages. The "libc6-dev" package is
required if you want to create new programs that link with the
c library (since it contains the header files, while "libc6" contains
only shared libs (and timezone data files)).

It's a debian thing. That other distributions (and other systems) use
a different naming and package scheme is irrelevant.

--
Sam Holden

[Dirk Thierbach]

Colin J. Williams <cj*@sympatico.ca> wrote:

Robert Kern wrote:

Why are you trying to install distutils over the one provided by
python-dev? It's probably not a good idea.

I am doing this because there is no distutils in the Debian packages for
Python2.3.4 or Python 2.3.4-dev.

$ dpkg -l python2.3-dev
....
ii python2.3-dev 2.3.4-5 Header files and a static library for Python
$ dpkg -L python2.3-dev
....
/usr/lib/python2.3/distutils/README
/usr/lib/python2.3/distutils/__init__.py
....

So either there's something strange with your version of the package
(download a new one), or you didn't look carefully enough.

- Dirk