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python is going to die! =(



Sorry but there is no another way, c# .net and mono are going to rip
python, not because python is a bad lenguage, but because is to darn old
and it refuses to innovate things, to fix wrong things, just because
retarded backwards compatibility and because the python comunity and
developers refuses to consider tools as being almost as important as the
language itself.

What does c# .net has that python doesnt ? (significant features)

-- tools,tools,tools : have people that likes python ever used an ide? i
mean a good ide, the one that saves you a lot of time, and makes you
productive.

looks like they havent, they think new people is willing to practice emacs
for 6 months before even thinking about being productive, not to mention
you have to learn 20 years old list, and low level c stuff to have fully
advantage. Those guys are realy happy with their stuff that totaly,
completly refuses to try a new tool, a new tool that 'is' better, like say,
an ide??.

Then we have the , you just need a text editor. This is realy amazing,
tecnology improves, people have to change their way of thinking, i realy
cant count the number of text editors avaiable for python, with basicaly
just syntax highlighting.For example, idle :

idle is just a text editor with syntax color,nothing else, then you see
that half of buttons are so fucking retarded things that you never
need,indentation stuff, replace tabs and all crap that you never realy
need, the class browser and path browser were in the right way, before they
got abandoned with just the most basic low functionality.

No help in real programing? why? why do i need to press a retarded button
to indent-deindent reindent stuff but i dont need help with integrated help
system , code completion , source assistant , a freaking decent calltips
support, etc ? It realy makes no sense , no sense at all.

Why do these people keep reinventing text editors again and again and again
to just add some retarded functionality that noone ever needs? pycrust ,
drpython, leo , idle , eclipse plugins(py editors with color) they all love
to reinvent the wheel instead of trying to work together on some common
project to do something usefull, boy if i want a text editor with syntax
color i just use vim,or kate or something.

For the C # Side there IS :

sharp develop, wich is going to be ported to linux and mac, and it is even
better than vstudio! is open source .

monodevelop , which is a little inestable but very very usable , and has
real features!! proyect browsing , full calltips ,code completion,source
help, doc help system , you know , productivity features.
-- C # is almost perfetly designed, python is very well designed but it has
some crap that obscurize it and is not going to be removed because of the
damn backwards compatibility thing, C # has all the advantages there is
new ,it has learned from other languages mistakes. Python must break
backward compatibility to be at the same level of play.
At least python has just a few problems in this area compared to java,which
is 50% crap , just to hold backwards compatibility.

-- C # is easy to use,fast apps coding (as python) but!! it has all the
advantages of a compiled language , like less bugs concerning silly types
mistakes , ides and tools can take much much more advantage of static
typing , it is much much much faster , and finally is much more readable
than python since i dont have to be guessing in the woods to know what type
of value a function return , or what types are the functions argument or
WTF does 'return MOM' means?

-- C # is killing python, first the gnome guys dont know what to choose for
their core system development , if mono-C # ? or java ? the only reason C #
hasnt being choosen is because of legal issues, and java? well it realy
sucks so no surprise , but is considered just because eclipse wich is the
most kick ass ide ever. AND they dont even consider python for a high level
language to choose!!

Look at source-forge,(around) python : 3000 proyects , C # 1500 proyects
and C# is much younger than python, not to mention mono is new!! 2 times
more C # proyects are started than python proyects by month, so very soon
C# is going to completly replace python in their areas. Not to mention that
C# proyects are generaly bigger, compared to small command line tools,
python proyects.

I think is a fact, reality , there is just no way python is going to
survive, i would be happy if someone knows or see something i dont ,
because i realy like python, but : C # which has all the m$ licenses and
crap involved is so superior to python in so many ways, its not even
funny,and C# has serius tools, ides ,etc. Look at
nhibernate,nunit,njasper,the super sharp-develop ,monodevelop,etc. BTW
wingware has a very nice ide, but close sourced and at a price of 200$ for
os is ridiculous,and their personal edition is pure crap, no
code-assistant ? lol. Is there a posibility python survives 2 years more at
least?

Btw , nice quotes on python site : "Python has been an important part of
Google since the beginning, and remains so as the system grows and evolves.
Today dozens of Google engineers use Python, and we're looking for more
people with skills in this language." said Peter Norvig, director of search
quality at Google, Inc.

But the google code jam, the one google searchs for new hackers to join
their lines is only for c# , java , c++ , nice irony , lie,lie.
Jul 18 '05
81 4194
Of course emacs is going to die someday. But considering that it's been
around for something like 25 years, and still going strong, I'm not too
worried that it's going to be anytime soon.
Jul 18 '05 #51
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 03:13:18 -0400, Tom Cocagne wrote:
Python GUI's are one of those annoying circumstances in which there simply
isn't a good solution (or, at least, no good solution readily apparent to
one with my level intellect). For every GUI toolkit you pick there's going
to be several impressive pros and several apaling cons.


Note that all the Python wrappers I've tried (which is all the major ones
except FOX (if you count that as major) and I suppose direct use of Win32
(if you count that as a python wrapper)) are fairly thin wrappers around
the toolkits, possibly with some added library code (wxPython), so they
are at the very least easier to use than the toolkit directly, and in some
cases have significant advantages.

In other words, pinning this issue on Python is misguided; it is a
fundamental issue with GUI toolkits *in general*, and there is little
(more) Python can do to fix that.

The reality is that while we've mostly mastered GUIs that are simple
forms, we still haven't found "one ideal solution" for anything much
beyond that. (Assuming there is one, of course, though there is probably
at least a 95% solution waiting for us to converge on it.) You've got
"widgets" and "events" and "data" and "code" and everybody has different
ideas on how to tie those things together, with fundamental advantages and
disadvantages to each approach, even assuming perfect implementations.

For what it is worth, you have this problem in Windows, too, you just
don't percieve it because Windows has a One True Widget set... at least
for a given development environment... and assuming you don't want to
install GTK or QT... well, it's close enough to true that it is
practically true. But that's only an advantage if the widget set works for
you, and so far, it never really has. I've never been able to go more than
an hour without having to work around a Windows bug of some kind due to
the way I use widgets. But I digress....
Jul 18 '05 #52
Chris Green wrote:
M-/ is good for saving keystrokes.
Well I'll be.. Never knew about that one.
The trick that I like most about emacs+python right now is inserting
import pdb; pdb.set_trace() and then running the python script from a
*shell* buffer. It just happens to load the exact same code that would
occur from running pdb.py directly so code lines can be synced up.


I played around with it a bit but couldn't figure out how
to make it do what I've needed, which is to print the lines
of code as they are running. Unlike doing a step by step
in the debugger, this gives me an record of the entire
program flow. I used it once to debug code running at one
of my client's site.
import spam
spam.do_this() 50 import showtrace
import sys
sys.settrace(showtrace.linetrace)
spam.do_this() Calling: ?
..
Calling: do_this
spam.py:2: a = 5
spam.py:3: b = 10
spam.py:4: c = a*b
spam.py:5: return c
return
50
return


Here's showtrace.py

import sys, linecache

def getlineinfo(frame):
filename = frame.f_globals.get("__file__")
if filename is None:
# Don't know a file?
return "."
if filename[-4:] in (".pyc", ".pyo"):
filename = filename[:-1]
lineno = frame.f_lineno
if filename.endswith(".py"):
line = linecache.getline(filename, lineno)
if not line:
line = "???"
return "%s:%s: %s" % (filename, lineno, line.rstrip())
line = "???!!!"
return "%s:%s: %s" % (filename, lineno, line.rstrip())

def getfuncinfo(frame):
return "Calling: " + frame.f_code.co_name

def linetrace(frame, event, arg):
if event == 'line':
sys.stderr.write(" " * indent + getlineinfo(frame) + "\n")
elif event == 'call':
sys.stderr.write(" " * indent + getfuncinfo(frame) + "\n")
return linetrace
elif event == 'return':
sys.stderr.write(" " * indent + "return\n")

Andrew
da***@dalkescientific.com
Jul 18 '05 #53
Fred <fr**@acme.com> pisze:
I do notice though that when I try to convince a co-worker to try Python,
the thing that seems to be the biggest turn off is the lack of an IDE with a
GUI designer included standard
I agree. Once you're used to the productivity of Delphi or VB, it's a
big turn-off to have to go back to building GUI's by hand, and
shipping the 3MB DLL for wxWidgets is an extra reason why newbies
might give up on another excellent tool. Too bad Guido et al. didn't
take the GUI part into consideration earlier.


I love Delphi, 5 days a week, 9:00-17:30, but I don't want Python to be
bound to one platform, as Delphi is (no, Kylix is not an answer, it's a
disaster). I'm really happy (and productive) using wx on Windows and
PyQt on linux, with wxGlade and Qt Designer as GUI designers. There's
only one thing from Delphi I'd like to see in other IDE's -- its
integrated debugging is great. Eclipse (w. Java) has very similar model
of debugger integration.
But then, maybe someone will come up with a good IDE + GUI designer as
part of the .Net shebbang.


Go, try Delphi 8.

--
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/ | http://www.zgodowie.org/
Jul 18 '05 #54
Jarek Zgoda <jz****@gazeta.usun.pl> writes:
I love Delphi, 5 days a week, 9:00-17:30, but I don't want Python to be
bound to one platform, as Delphi is (no, Kylix is not an answer, it's a
disaster). I'm really happy (and productive) using wx on Windows and
PyQt on linux, with wxGlade and Qt Designer as GUI designers. There's
only one thing from Delphi I'd like to see in other IDE's -- its
integrated debugging is great. Eclipse (w. Java) has very similar model
of debugger integration.


A friend of mine -- actually a business partner -- that comes from a
world like yours is loving to work with Python since I convinced him
about it. One thing that he always complain about is the absence of
components like TDatabase, TQuery, TDBEdit, TDBGrid, etc. (He's being a
DBA for the last 20+ years --- where the '+' probably means more 5 or 6
years ;-D)

What are you using to replace those in your wxPython apps? I really
don't know them and I am not being able to help him with that.

I've seen, though, the wxODBC family but he always tells me that there
are several penalties in performance for not using the native drivers in
critical applications... What is your opinion about it?
Be seeing you,
--
Godoy. <go***@ieee.org>
Jul 18 '05 #55
Max M <ma**@mxm.dk> wrote in message news:<41*********************@dread12.news.tele.dk >...
When writing big systems, it is nice to be able to have an enviroment to code in. Eg. an IDE.
Wow, I actually find this backwards; IDEs often look good for small
projects, but don't scale up (especially to large, multiplatform
projects) very well in my experience.

Which goes to show that it's really a matter of personal taste.
I have a feeling that the typelessness of Python can make this harder. Wrappers on top of wrappers on top of som kind unknown data type can be really hard to trace.
Dynamic typing is probably the biggest defining characteristic of
Python; personally, it's one of the very first language features I
consider when I'm figuring out what language to use for a job.

I agree that intellisense-style tools are easier to write for
statically typed languages, but that's a very small advantage when
weighed against the advantages of dynamic typic (or against other,
more interesting advantages of static typing), IMO.
This is an issue when the system get's a lot bigger than the language.


I'm not sure what you mean by this, I can't really imagine a system
"bigger than Python" in the sense of "so big that Python was a bad
choice for implementation" or "so big that Python started to get in
the way/didn't support development/etc".

Right now we have a team of developers working on a system that
includes 250,000 lines of Python code; admittedly, some of that (maybe
30,000 lines) is machine generated, but the majority is not.

The language hasn't been a problem for us--indeed, I think it's helped
tremendously in terms of keeping the team small and yet still allow
for rapid development--and I don't see any reason that it would be a
problem on a project 10 or 100 times that size.
Jul 18 '05 #56
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:40:43 -0300, Jorge Godoy <go***@ieee.org> wrote:
[about data aware components for Delphi]
What are you using to replace those in your wxPython apps? I really
don't know them and I am not being able to help him with that.
TTable and TQuery equivalents are really not needed for Python "per
se". DBAPI 2.0 (even incomplete) and libraries such as sqlobject blow
TDataset and related classes away for almost anything that I can
imagine -- unless, of course, it's something that has to work wit data
aware editing components. These are still to be matched. I've been
studying Dabo (it was announced in this list, you can check it at
http://dabodev.com), and they are working on a framework that in some
ways resembles something that can be done with Delphi, but their
approach is different. Report generation is also problematic -- the
last time I've checked a couple of years ago, ReportLab couldn't be
considered to be on par with Delphi's report libraries, but I don't
about the situation now.
I've seen, though, the wxODBC family but he always tells me that there
are several penalties in performance for not using the native drivers in
critical applications... What is your opinion about it?


Passing over layers and layers of abstraction before getting to the
database is always going to impose a performance hit. ODBC is also
known to be very bad in this respect, at least in the Windows world,
and as far as I know, nobody likes to use it unless absolutely needed
for compatibility reasons.

I never made any benchmark, but I *suspect* that Python DB code can be
surprisingly efficient when compared to Delphi code. Delphi DB library
is very well implemented, but Python may have an edge when it comes to
manipulation of large in memory structures; not that Delphi can't do
it, but because Python libraries are already highly optimized. If one
writes "pythonic" code -- taking advantage of stuff that Python does
well, such as list and mapping manipulation, then the performance gain
can be significant. On the other hand, if someone tries to write code
in Python that reads and works just like Delphi's code, then the
performance will suffer.

--
Carlos Ribeiro
Consultoria em Projetos
blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
mail: ca********@gmail.com
mail: ca********@yahoo.com
Jul 18 '05 #57
al*****@yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) wrote in message news:<1gkih9r.pfgqukvpt1rcN%al*****@yahoo.com>...
Max M <ma**@mxm.dk> wrote:
<speaking about Zope>
self-educating system would be of a big help. A system where
introspection was well supported.


I've never used any language with better introspection facilities than
Python, not even Lisp.


Well Alex, you are talking about Python and you are right. But Max M. is talking
about Zope, and he also is right. There is a serious problem in introspecting
Zope. Everything is a wrapper around something and usual Python introspection
facilities give you no useful information. Zope (I am talking about Zope 2) is
the most unpythonic framework I have ever seen :-(
Michele Simionato
Jul 18 '05 #58
G. S. Hayes wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by this, I can't really imagine a system
"bigger than Python" in the sense of "so big that Python was a bad
choice for implementation" or "so big that Python started to get in
the way/didn't support development/etc".


You have a learning curve for the language, and a learning curve for the
system.

What I meant was that the learning curve for the system is much bigger
than the langugage. So learning the system becomes a much bigger task
than using any specific language.

In that case, tool support could be more important than language, as the
right tool could help you understand the system better.

I am not saying it is like that. Just that I could imagine a tool that
could make you understand big systems better, and that less dynamic
languages would be easier to write those kind of tools for.

I often find that debugging is pretty trivial. But what I really hate is
when I trace the bug into a subsystem that I have not written. Then I
can spend several days solving it, as I have to learn and understand
that subsystem. In that case the system is larger than the language.

--

hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark

http://www.mxm.dk/
IT's Mad Science
Jul 18 '05 #59
I got F'ing annoyed when I had to use VB because it forced one to write
a GUI. I just wanted to write a simple program that would send output
to stdout. I had to create a list box and append each line. Of course,
I could not pipe the output of that program into another program. Screw
GUI programs! Just kidding. I don't like to be forced to do either.
It nice to be able to do whatever one needs. If I had to write a GUI
program with python, I am not sure what I would use. I am not asking
which to use. I am just making a comment.

Wilk wrote:
Don't forget that there is a lot of developers who don't need any gui,
or need a very specific gui. But every developers need python the
langage and the standard lib...

Jul 18 '05 #60
What is happening with Jython now adays? I vaguely remember something
about the main develope got hired by M$.

Ville Vainio wrote:
Luckily we emacs fans still have hope in eclipse - what needs to be
implemented is a Jython API that allows customization of eclipse in
the way elisp works for emacs. Eclipse has broad industry support and
a fair share of enthusiasm working for it, while emacs just doesn't
seem to be what kids like to hack anymore.

Jul 18 '05 #61
CarlosRivera <Ca**********@badnamefornospam.to> wrote:
What is happening with Jython now adays? I vaguely remember something
about the main develope got hired by M$.


Jim Hugunin (the guy who just got hired by Microsoft) _initiated_
JPython but he hadn't been active on the project for awhile; he's
currently been doing IronPython, roughly a Jython-equivalent for dotNet,
and his work with the Common Language Runtime is no doubt part of why
Microsoft hired him.
Alex
Jul 18 '05 #62
In article <1g****************************@yahoo.com>,
Alex Martelli <al*****@yahoo.com> wrote:
CarlosRivera <Ca**********@badnamefornospam.to> wrote:
What is happening with Jython now adays? I vaguely remember something
about the main develope got hired by M$.


Jim Hugunin (the guy who just got hired by Microsoft) _initiated_
JPython but he hadn't been active on the project for awhile; he's
currently been doing IronPython, roughly a Jython-equivalent for dotNet,
and his work with the Common Language Runtime is no doubt part of why
Microsoft hired him.

Jul 18 '05 #63
Chris Green wrote:
The trick that I like most about emacs+python right now is inserting
import pdb; pdb.set_trace() and then running the python script from a
*shell* buffer. It just happens to load the exact same code that would
occur from running pdb.py directly so code lines can be synced up.


I am trying for a long time a way to run pdb from emacs and have the
code synchronized.

I searched google for emacs+python+debug or emacs+pdb but the
instructions would say: "M-x pdb" but then emacs asked the command line
to run the debug and I tried "pdb" "pydb" "pydb filename" but nothing
worked.

When I tryed "M-x pdb" then "pydb" I need to use "file <filename>" (and
the completion doesn't work here for the filename), then the debugger
worked, but no sync with the source code :-(

From the help of GUD, I tried "M-x pdb <RET> FILE <RET>" also without
success.

Anyone can help me with this? I really don't know how to make it work. I
have seen in the python-emacs-mode that there are some code to
synchronize the code, but I could not make it work in this way (I don't
know enough elisp) :-(

But anyway, thanks Chris for the tip. This one worked for me :-) It is
possible to set breakpoints using the source buffer instead of using the
line number?

Marcio
Jul 18 '05 #64
Marcio Rosa da Silva <mr*****@fastmail.fm> writes:
Chris Green wrote:
The trick that I like most about emacs+python right now is inserting
import pdb; pdb.set_trace() and then running the python script from a
*shell* buffer. It just happens to load the exact same code that would
occur from running pdb.py directly so code lines can be synced up.
I am trying for a long time a way to run pdb from emacs and have the
code synchronized.

I searched google for emacs+python+debug or emacs+pdb but the
instructions would say: "M-x pdb" but then emacs asked the command
line to run the debug and I tried "pdb" "pydb" "pydb filename" but
nothing worked.

When I tryed "M-x pdb" then "pydb" I need to use "file <filename>"
(and the completion doesn't work here for the filename), then the
debugger worked, but no sync with the source code :-(

From the help of GUD, I tried "M-x pdb <RET> FILE <RET>" also without
success.


You can either start pdb as "python <path-to-python-libs/pdb.py" or to
make your life easier install an executable that does that. I'm using
the following script in /usr/local/bin/pdb for this purpose:

--8<--
#! /bin/sh
lib=`python -c "import sys; print '%s/lib/python%s' % (sys.prefix, sys.version[:3])"`

python -u $lib/pdb.py "$@"
--8<--

with this script you start pdb as "M-x pdb <RET> pdb yourscript.py
script arguments...<RET>"
Anyone can help me with this? I really don't know how to make it
work. I have seen in the python-emacs-mode that there are some code to
synchronize the code, but I could not make it work in this way (I
don't know enough elisp) :-(

But anyway, thanks Chris for the tip. This one worked for me :-) It is
possible to set breakpoints using the source buffer instead of using
the line number?


C-x <SPC> in the source buffer.

hth,
/steffen
--
st**********@sympatico.ca <> Gravity is a myth -- the Earth sucks!
Jul 18 '05 #65
Steffen Ries wrote:
You can either start pdb as "python <path-to-python-libs/pdb.py" or to
make your life easier install an executable that does that. I'm using
the following script in /usr/local/bin/pdb for this purpose:

I tought that was what pydb (not pdb) does. But pydb doesn't worked for
me (it is in /usr/bin/pydb on my system)
--8<--
#! /bin/sh
lib=`python -c "import sys; print '%s/lib/python%s' % (sys.prefix, sys.version[:3])"`

python -u $lib/pdb.py "$@"
--8<--
but this one works! Thanks!!!

with this script you start pdb as "M-x pdb <RET> pdb yourscript.py
script arguments...<RET>"


:-)
Anyone can help me with this? I really don't know how to make it
work. I have seen in the python-emacs-mode that there are some code to
synchronize the code, but I could not make it work in this way (I
don't know enough elisp) :-(

But anyway, thanks Chris for the tip. This one worked for me :-) It is
possible to set breakpoints using the source buffer instead of using
the line number?

C-x <SPC> in the source buffer.


This works running pdb as you suggested, but with the set_trace() trick,
not (at least for me)

Problem solved now!

Thank you!!

Marcio
Jul 18 '05 #66
Chris Green wrote:
Andrew Dalke <ad****@mindspring.com> writes:
http://cedet.sourceforge.net/semantic.shtml is a project working on
the backend parsing to be able to be at the point where that context
sensitive dynamic completions can happen ( well, as well as they could
in python ).


And don't forget the excellent Emacs Code Browser -
http://ecb.sourceforge.net, which utilises cedet. From the web page:

"ECB stands for "Emacs Code Browser". While Emacs already has good
editing support for many modes, its browsing support is somewhat
lacking. That's where ECB comes in: it displays a number of
informational windows that allow for easy source code navigation and
overview."

Works great with Python

Ian
Jul 18 '05 #67
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:18:35 +0200, rumours say that al*****@yahoo.com
(Alex Martelli) might have written:
Well, not to feed the troll, but there is a few relevant points in it's
posting.


(Please, please, please: "its", not "it's"... pretty please...)


(Late reply that maybe can make one smile)

Alex, you are 99% correct. Leave a 1% chance that Max referred to
"julio" as "it"... :) Trolls are genderless!
--
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best,
"Tssss!" --Brad Pitt as Achilles in unprecedented Ancient Greek
Jul 18 '05 #68
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 02:39:51 +0300, Christos "TZOTZIOY" Georgiou <tz**@sil-tec.gr> wrote:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:18:35 +0200, rumours say that al*****@yahoo.com
(Alex Martelli) might have written:
Well, not to feed the troll, but there is a few relevant points in it's
posting.


(Please, please, please: "its", not "it's"... pretty please...)


(Late reply that maybe can make one smile)

Alex, you are 99% correct. Leave a 1% chance that Max referred to
"julio" as "it"... :) Trolls are genderless!


If a troll posts, it's its fault if its its's and its "it's"s (it'ses ?!)
are not used correctly ;-) Ok, I stuck my neck out, but I suspect
Alex is at least 99.999% right ;-)

BTW, did you notice that and's letter count is 3, and also that it's letter count is 2 ;-)

Regards,
Bengt Richter
Jul 18 '05 #69
Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou wrote:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:18:35 +0200, rumours say that al*****@yahoo.com
(Alex Martelli) might have written:

Well, not to feed the troll, but there is a few relevant points in it's
posting.


(Please, please, please: "its", not "it's"... pretty please...)

(Late reply that maybe can make one smile)

Alex, you are 99% correct. Leave a 1% chance that Max referred to
"julio" as "it"... :) Trolls are genderless!

Sorry, Christos. Alex was correct: "its" is the appropriate usage here.
"it's" is a contraction of "it is", and NOT the possessive form of it.
Furthermore, Alex was quite kind in *not* correcting the mismatch
between the singular form of the verb "is" and the plural noun "points".
I, otoh, am not so generous.

The sentence *should* have read:
"Well, not to feed the troll, but there are a few relevant points in its
posting."

Anna (pedants-r-us) Martelli
Jul 18 '05 #70
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:11:31 GMT, Anna Martelli Ravenscroft <an**@aleax.it> wrote:
Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou wrote:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:18:35 +0200, rumours say that al*****@yahoo.com
(Alex Martelli) might have written:

Well, not to feed the troll, but there is a few relevant points in it's
posting.

(Please, please, please: "its", not "it's"... pretty please...)

(Late reply that maybe can make one smile)

Alex, you are 99% correct. Leave a 1% chance that Max referred to
"julio" as "it"... :) Trolls are genderless!

Sorry, Christos. Alex was correct: "its" is the appropriate usage here.
"it's" is a contraction of "it is", and NOT the possessive form of it.
Furthermore, Alex was quite kind in *not* correcting the mismatch
between the singular form of the verb "is" and the plural noun "points".
I, otoh, am not so generous.

The sentence *should* have read:
"Well, not to feed the troll, but there are a few relevant points in its
posting."

I almost posted a similar comment ;-) OTOH ...
How many relevant points do you need to start a debate?
How would you answer that question?

A few is enough?
A few are enough?
A few relevant points suffices, or a few relevant points suffice?
A small number suffices, or a small number suffice?
A dozen is sufficient?
A dozen are sufficient?

I suspect that there are some semantic subtleties at work. I.e., when you focus
mentally on the few points as a single collection, the singular forms feel right,
but when you focus on the few points as separate entities, plural forms feel right.
Thus you want the verb (e.g.,is/are) to agree numerically with _some entities_, or with
_a collection_, according to your focus.
I think some sentences can be read either way, depending on which way your attention
is directed (e.g. by word order and discourse context etc.) "A few" can work as noun or
adjective, it seems.

I like words too ;-)

Regards,
Bengt Richter
Jul 18 '05 #71
Steve Holden <st***@holdenweb.com> wrote:
...
pedant I had real trouble with. It reads "Some village in Texas is
missing their idiot", and the reason for my perplexity was, while I feel
Aha, I have my pet anti-peeve on that one issue, _singular "their"_ (and
"they", but we can argue that one once the easier possessive case is
more accepted;-). I may have read and appreciated too much 18th-century
and earlier English...;-) -- anyway,
<http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html> expresses my own
feelings in the matter pretty well (lots of useful links from that page,
too).
this week, I'm much more prepared to let people break the rules when I
think that they realize they *are* breaking the rules. I have less
patience with those who either don't know (sad) or don't care
(inexcusable) about the rules.


And what about those of us who are convinced that (some of) the rules
are _wrong_ -- that '''18th-century grammarians started making arbitrary
judgements as to what is "good English" and "bad English", based on a
kind of pseudo-"logic" deduced from the Latin language, that has nothing
whatever to do with English''', and that such _bloopers_ as the ban
against "singular their" (and other even more blatant cases, such as the
ban against "splitting ifinitives" and against ending a sentence with a
preposition...) should be fought against...?

called (with an expensive Latin term) "constructio ad sensum", i.e. you
conjugate the verb in accordance with what the word represents, rather than
with what it grammatically is.

Ultimately, language is intended to serve the purpose of communication,
and we shouldn't be too upset to see it mangled as long as it serves
that purpose. But when I hear politicians speak in sentences that don;t
even make sense (and hear rooms full of people applauding them, making
it obvious that no critical thought intervenes), *then I start to get my
dander up. There'll be a special room in hell for people who don;t
understand that language is *the* critical component of thought.


I have no disagreement whatsoever with this. But the "rules of
language" (mostly, a kind of guidelines...;-) that one should cherish
for proper communication may often have little to do with grammar per
se. Passive forms are grammatically correct, for example, but more
often than not they make expression of ideas needlessly contorted -- we
see a lot of those in technical and scientific writing, where we're
often shy about choosing a _subject_ for our sentences... and often
strive to avoid a singular "they"!-). Politicians (not necessarily the
kind that run for elections) love the obfuscation passives often bring,
of course. "Singular 'they' is widely considered incorrect", for
example, craftily avoids naming a subject _because any subject would
point out the thesis' weakness_ -- by saying "Pedants widely consider
...." one would reveal one's colors, by saying "Native speakers of
English widely consider ..." one would express a direct lie that's
easily shown up as such.

Admittedly, the role of language is often to communicate _with
ambiguity_ -- this may be sad, or even morally repugnant, but it's a
fact... language evolved as a survival trait of human beings, and pretty
often being able to communicate with ambiguity, so as to trick somebody
and yet later be able to defend the claim that all you said was
perfectly true, is obviously adaptive. Creative ambiguity has often
been the only way some treatise or contract could be "sold" to the
voters or stockholders of both nations or firms, enabling the
politicians or executives of each side to interpret the words that were
being signed in such a way as to mollify their constituency...

So, in fighting to express ourselves clearly and directly, we _are_
indeed fighting against the grain of a substantial portion of language's
biological purpose (helped, fortunately, by _another_ portion of it;-).
In this fight, good rules help (particularly, they help a good writer
who's able to pick the one case in a hundred where even a good rule is
best broken in the advantage of clarity and directness), but bad rules
hinder even more...
Alex
Jul 18 '05 #72
Ville Vainio <vi***@spammers.com> wrote in message news:<du****************@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>...
That's the whole problem with emacs - lack of resources. Nobody
bothers do anything "seriously".
And they do in the Eclipse world? Bah. I've just spent two weeks trying
to come to terms with Eclipse. I couldn't even how to figure out how to
get brace-matching to work for a scripting language that is not supported
by the default distribution.
And when people within the emacs
community do things they pick bizarre ways of doing things, possibly
because they are often Lisp lovers that like to "think different".
It's not because Lisp-heads like to think different. It's because Lisp
allows you to think differently. Programming for Emacs though is a bit
of a different animal from most programming because of the basic data
model. When the goal of a program is (extensive) side-effects on a
string things look a bit ... different. Just wait. Eclipse programming
will go down this road by the time it reaches the level of maturity of
current Emacsen.
Eclipse will no doubt take over.
I do see the possibility, but the Eclipse community is going to have to
more eagerly embrace the non-Java world.
Emacs might need a fresh start,
but it's hardly likely; most probably a new project would be seen as
further dillution of already scarce emacs resources.
The big problem is backward compatibility with the *huge* base of
existing elisp code.
Luckily we emacs fans still have hope in eclipse -


How? I'm feeling awfully let down that the appearance of the Eclipse
community does not seem to match the reality.

david rush
Jul 18 '05 #73

[David]
I do see the possibility [of Eclipse taking over from Emacs], but
the Eclipse community is going to have to more eagerly embrace the
non-Java world.


I tried Eclipse this week as a possible alternative to SciTE, which is
my current preferred Python editor. I discovered two things:

1. There is no File/Open. You can't just open an arbitrary file and
edit it; the file must be part of a project. This makes (some) sense
for Java because your CLASSPATH limits where source files can be
picked up from (but what about non-source files? or files that are
indirectly related to your project?)

2. In the Python debugger (I was using the PyDev plugin) a Step took
between 3 and 4 seconds on my 3GHz PC. (I'd previously tried
TruStudio and had been unable to make their debugger work at all.)

I uninstalled the whole thing sharpish. If there are Eclipse/PyDev fans
out there who want to say "No, you've missed the 'let me open arbitrary
files' and 'make the Python debugger work at a decent speed' options",
I'm all ears!

--
Richie Hindle
ri****@entrian.com

Jul 18 '05 #74
>>>>> "Richie" == Richie Hindle <ri****@entrian.com> writes:

Richie> 1. There is no File/Open. You can't just open an
Richie> arbitrary file and edit it; the file must be part of a
Richie> project. This makes (some) sense

File / Open external file. It's not drag-and-drop, but better than
nothing.

Richie> 2. In the Python debugger (I was using the PyDev plugin) a
Richie> Step took between 3 and 4 seconds on my 3GHz PC. (I'd
Richie> previously tried

I tried the debugger only briefly - it was not that slow. It wasn't
snappy, but at least it felt faster than w/ some older version of
PyDev (that was pydev 0.6.1).

--
Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb
Jul 18 '05 #75
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:11:31 GMT, rumours say that Anna Martelli
Ravenscroft <an**@aleax.it> might have written:
Alex, you are 99% correct. Leave a 1% chance that Max referred to
"julio" as "it"... :) Trolls are genderless!

Sorry, Christos. Alex was correct: "its" is the appropriate usage here.
"it's" is a contraction of "it is", and NOT the possessive form of it.
Furthermore, Alex was quite kind in *not* correcting the mismatch
between the singular form of the verb "is" and the plural noun "points".
I, otoh, am not so generous.

The sentence *should* have read:
"Well, not to feed the troll, but there are a few relevant points in its
posting."


I see marriage has *its* advantages... :)

Actually, my post was a rather silly pun (think "It" by Stephen King),
and that is the reason I inserted a smiley. I know that Alex was
correct. It's my fault that I didn't make myself absolutely clear I was
joking (I firmly believe that the speaker/writer has the responsibility
to make themselves understood assuming good intentions from the side of
the audience --and good intentions are the norm here on clpy :).

Thanks for taking the time to reply, though!
--
TZOTZIOY, I speak England very best,
"Tssss!" --Brad Pitt as Achilles in unprecedented Ancient Greek
Jul 18 '05 #76

[Richie]
There is no File/Open. You can't just open an arbitrary file and
edit it; the file must be part of a project.
[Ville] File / Open external file.
I'm calling the optician now.
It's not drag-and-drop, but better than nothing.


Lack of drag-and-drop was another problem I'd noticed, yes. 8-)

Thanks,

--
Richie Hindle
ri****@entrian.com

Jul 18 '05 #77
>>>>> "David" == David Rush <ku******@gmail.com> writes:

David> Ville Vainio <vi***@spammers.com> wrote in message news:<du****************@lehtori.cc.tut.fi>...
That's the whole problem with emacs - lack of resources. Nobody
bothers do anything "seriously".
David> And they do in the Eclipse world? Bah. I've just spent two

The results might not be ideal, but the effort seems to be serious;
corporate money is being poured into it. I'm aware that corporate
money is being poured into emacs customization as well, but at least
w/ eclipse the corporations know about it ;-).

David> to come to terms with Eclipse. I couldn't even how to
David> figure out how to get brace-matching to work for a
David> scripting language that is not supported by the default
David> distribution.

Me neither. Perhaps this is something to be brought up w/ pydev
people.
David> It's not because Lisp-heads like to think different. It's
David> because Lisp allows you to think differently. Programming
David> for Emacs though is a bit of a different animal from most
David> programming because of the basic data model. When the goal

As far as the emacs data model goes - it's remarkably similar to the
Python data model, and I don't really see any reason why emacs should
be in elisp (apart from inertia).

Eclipse will no doubt take over.
David> I do see the possibility, but the Eclipse community is
David> going to have to more eagerly embrace the non-Java world.

Indeed. I think we just need to give it some time. As it stands, the
potential for the passing of time to actually amounting to something
seems much better for Eclipse than it appears to be for Emacs.

Emacs might need a fresh start, but it's hardly likely; most
probably a new project would be seen as further dillution of
already scarce emacs resources.
David> The big problem is backward compatibility with the *huge*
David> base of existing elisp code.

I guess the legacy code just needs to be dropped, translated or
"emulated". Translation doesn't seem entirely impossible, at least for
the bulk of code that is written in "standard" fashion (w/o excessive
use of macros and whatnot). A lot of the elisp codebase is not
necessary for normal use anyway.
Luckily we emacs fans still have hope in eclipse -


David> How? I'm feeling awfully let down that the appearance of
David> the Eclipse community does not seem to match the reality.

That happened to me too. My hope was rekindled when I tried the recent
PyDev and saw that CDT got code compention working in C++. And some
other things. Eclipse needs to do a lot of growing up, but at least it
seems to *want* to grow up - unlike the grumpy old grandad that emacs
has become.

I bumped into this on #emacs; emacs users might find it interesting:

http://pinard.progiciels-bpi.ca/opinions/editors.html

--
Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb
Jul 18 '05 #78
Christos TZOTZIOY Georgiou wrote:
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:11:31 GMT, rumours say that Anna Martelli
Ravenscroft <an**@aleax.it> might have written:

Alex, you are 99% correct. Leave a 1% chance that Max referred to
"julio" as "it"... :) Trolls are genderless!

Sorry, Christos. Alex was correct: "its" is the appropriate usage here.
"it's" is a contraction of "it is", and NOT the possessive form of it.
Furthermore, Alex was quite kind in *not* correcting the mismatch
between the singular form of the verb "is" and the plural noun "points".
I, otoh, am not so generous.

The sentence *should* have read:
"Well, not to feed the troll, but there are a few relevant points in its
posting."

I see marriage has *its* advantages... :)


LOL

Actually, Alex and I first met over my correcting a subtle error in a
posting he had made (playing the "more pedantic than thou" game). ;-)
Actually, my post was a rather silly pun (think "It" by Stephen King),
Ah. Didn't catch the reference. One of (the few) Stephen King books I
haven't read.
and that is the reason I inserted a smiley. I know that Alex was
correct. It's my fault that I didn't make myself absolutely clear I was
joking
Actually, that you were being jocular was pretty clear...

(I firmly believe that the speaker/writer has the responsibility to make themselves understood assuming good intentions from the side of
the audience --and good intentions are the norm here on clpy :).


Yep. Agreed - it's a great community.

Anna
Jul 18 '05 #79
Tim Roberts <ti**@probo.com> wrote:
Second, "their" is allowed as a singular pronoun only in those cases where
a gender-specific pronoun is called for, but the gender is unclear or would
be sexist. Instead of "Everyone brought his Python manual," we are now
allowed to say "Everyone brought their Python manual."


Sorry, but I think you're being too restrictive. More impressively, so
does one William Shakespeare (Comedy of Errors):
"""
There's not a man I meet but doth salute me,
As if I were their well-acquainted friend.
"""
See? "a man" ... "their".

And the author of another of the masterpieces of English, the "King
James' Bible" (Matthew 18:35):
"...if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their
trespasses..."
See? "brother" <-> "their".

While most uses of singular "their" will be connected to gender
indeterminacy, I agree with "Henry Churchyard's linguistics page",
specifically with his subpage on the subject at
<http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html>, that:
"""
unspecified gender is actually neither a necessary or sufficient
condition for use of singular "their"
"""

Churchyard gives specific examples from Austen and Shakespeare and
argues cogently:
"""
It's also interesting that in several of the examples (they are pointed
out in the list), singular "their" refers to each of several women, and
so was not used to express gender-neutrality. The reason for this is
that singular "their" can serve as a general way of expressing
indefiniteness, which need not have anything whatever to do with
gender-neutrality.
"""
Alex
Jul 18 '05 #80
On Sun, 2004-10-03 at 08:50, Alex Ravenscroft Martelli wrote:
Sorry, but I think you're being too restrictive. More impressively, so
does one William Shakespeare (Comedy of Errors):
"""
There's not a man I meet but doth salute me,
As if I were their well-acquainted friend.
"""
See? "a man" ... "their".

And the author of another of the masterpieces of English, the "King
James' Bible" (Matthew 18:35):
"...if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their
trespasses..."
See? "brother" <-> "their".


Of course, William Shakespeare was the author, or at least the
translator, or one of the translators, of the King James Bible (KJB),
evidenced by the fact that in Psalm 46, the 46th word from the beginning
is 'shake' and the 46th word from the end (excluding the final,
obligatory "Selah") is 'spear'. Shakespeare was 46 years of age in 1611
when the KJB was first published. You can verify this here:

http://www.cforc.com/kjv/Psalms/46.html

This factoid was mentioned in a review by Martin Gardiner of that very
rare tome, "Dr Matrix's Numerological Concordance to the King James
Bible", which appeared in the "Mathematical Diversions" section of the
Scientific American magazine some time in the 1970s or early 1980s (as I
dimly recall).

--

Tim C

PGP/GnuPG Key 1024D/EAF993D0 available from keyservers everywhere
or at http://members.optushome.com.au/tchur/pubkey.asc
Key fingerprint = 8C22 BF76 33BA B3B5 1D5B EB37 7891 46A9 EAF9 93D0

Jul 18 '05 #81
Steve Holden <st***@holdenweb.com> wrote:
He really is a Professor of Linguistics and not some elaborate web hoax :)

Well Linguistics isn't Language.


Of course not, it's the _study_ of language. A linguist, for example,
need not be a very powerful and engaging writer, or speaker -- much like
a sports trainer need not be a very fast runner, or swimmer. But, if
you want to enhance your sporting abilities, you may still be better off
with the advice of somebody who studies the effects of various
combinations of diet and exercise, rather than with the advice of
somebody else, who just happens to be able to run a four-minute mile...

Of course, linguistics has long been split between prescriptive and
descriptive orientations. The long-term trend is definitely away from
the prescriptive (which centuries ago used to rule supreme) and towards
the descriptive (which isn't controversial any more, as soon as you get
into the actual professional practice -- peer-reviewed journals, etc).
How you "should" express yourself, after all, depends on your purposes;
the best a linguist can do is elucidate for you the likely consequences
of a stylistic or grammatical choice. It's not an issue of "who ya
gonna call?" being ``better'' or ``worse'' than "whom are you going to
contact?"... if you understand the contexts in which either way of
expression is going to be clearer, how they're going to affect your
audience, and so on, you can _choose_ effectively between them.
Alex
Jul 18 '05 #82

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