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python is going to die! =(

P: n/a


Sorry but there is no another way, c# .net and mono are going to rip
python, not because python is a bad lenguage, but because is to darn old
and it refuses to innovate things, to fix wrong things, just because
retarded backwards compatibility and because the python comunity and
developers refuses to consider tools as being almost as important as the
language itself.

What does c# .net has that python doesnt ? (significant features)

-- tools,tools,tools : have people that likes python ever used an ide? i
mean a good ide, the one that saves you a lot of time, and makes you
productive.

looks like they havent, they think new people is willing to practice emacs
for 6 months before even thinking about being productive, not to mention
you have to learn 20 years old list, and low level c stuff to have fully
advantage. Those guys are realy happy with their stuff that totaly,
completly refuses to try a new tool, a new tool that 'is' better, like say,
an ide??.

Then we have the , you just need a text editor. This is realy amazing,
tecnology improves, people have to change their way of thinking, i realy
cant count the number of text editors avaiable for python, with basicaly
just syntax highlighting.For example, idle :

idle is just a text editor with syntax color,nothing else, then you see
that half of buttons are so fucking retarded things that you never
need,indentation stuff, replace tabs and all crap that you never realy
need, the class browser and path browser were in the right way, before they
got abandoned with just the most basic low functionality.

No help in real programing? why? why do i need to press a retarded button
to indent-deindent reindent stuff but i dont need help with integrated help
system , code completion , source assistant , a freaking decent calltips
support, etc ? It realy makes no sense , no sense at all.

Why do these people keep reinventing text editors again and again and again
to just add some retarded functionality that noone ever needs? pycrust ,
drpython, leo , idle , eclipse plugins(py editors with color) they all love
to reinvent the wheel instead of trying to work together on some common
project to do something usefull, boy if i want a text editor with syntax
color i just use vim,or kate or something.

For the C # Side there IS :

sharp develop, wich is going to be ported to linux and mac, and it is even
better than vstudio! is open source .

monodevelop , which is a little inestable but very very usable , and has
real features!! proyect browsing , full calltips ,code completion,source
help, doc help system , you know , productivity features.
-- C # is almost perfetly designed, python is very well designed but it has
some crap that obscurize it and is not going to be removed because of the
damn backwards compatibility thing, C # has all the advantages there is
new ,it has learned from other languages mistakes. Python must break
backward compatibility to be at the same level of play.
At least python has just a few problems in this area compared to java,which
is 50% crap , just to hold backwards compatibility.

-- C # is easy to use,fast apps coding (as python) but!! it has all the
advantages of a compiled language , like less bugs concerning silly types
mistakes , ides and tools can take much much more advantage of static
typing , it is much much much faster , and finally is much more readable
than python since i dont have to be guessing in the woods to know what type
of value a function return , or what types are the functions argument or
WTF does 'return MOM' means?

-- C # is killing python, first the gnome guys dont know what to choose for
their core system development , if mono-C # ? or java ? the only reason C #
hasnt being choosen is because of legal issues, and java? well it realy
sucks so no surprise , but is considered just because eclipse wich is the
most kick ass ide ever. AND they dont even consider python for a high level
language to choose!!

Look at source-forge,(around) python : 3000 proyects , C # 1500 proyects
and C# is much younger than python, not to mention mono is new!! 2 times
more C # proyects are started than python proyects by month, so very soon
C# is going to completly replace python in their areas. Not to mention that
C# proyects are generaly bigger, compared to small command line tools,
python proyects.

I think is a fact, reality , there is just no way python is going to
survive, i would be happy if someone knows or see something i dont ,
because i realy like python, but : C # which has all the m$ licenses and
crap involved is so superior to python in so many ways, its not even
funny,and C# has serius tools, ides ,etc. Look at
nhibernate,nunit,njasper,the super sharp-develop ,monodevelop,etc. BTW
wingware has a very nice ide, but close sourced and at a price of 200$ for
os is ridiculous,and their personal edition is pure crap, no
code-assistant ? lol. Is there a posibility python survives 2 years more at
least?

Btw , nice quotes on python site : "Python has been an important part of
Google since the beginning, and remains so as the system grows and evolves.
Today dozens of Google engineers use Python, and we're looking for more
people with skills in this language." said Peter Norvig, director of search
quality at Google, Inc.

But the google code jam, the one google searchs for new hackers to join
their lines is only for c# , java , c++ , nice irony , lie,lie.
Jul 18 '05 #1
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81 Replies


P: n/a
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:58:44 -0400, julio wrote:
It realy makes no sense , no sense at all.


C# is that-a-way --->

HTH.

Jul 18 '05 #2

P: n/a
There are non-caffeinated brands out there that really do taste just
as good as the high-test. Really.

I'll be honest, I have little experience with IDE's. Every time I've
used one it takes me about 5 minutes to be wishing again for Emacs and
a command line to work with. I'm not a grizzled old veteran; I'm not
as experienced as 99% of this lis,; and I'm probably not much of a
programmer - but - I find I work better with Emacs than an IDE. So
the fact that there isn't a good IDE available isn't that big of a
deal to me. Perhaps I don't realize what I'm missing. Perhaps I'm
better off blissfully ignorant.

As for C# "killing" Python? I don't think so. There are still plenty
of folks programming in Fortran (and heck, some still in COBOL) for
crying out loud. C is still studied, used, and taught, even though
C++ was should have supplanted it. Maybe at some point Python will
stop being a major development language, but that doesn't mean it's
going to die.

Languages are tools, plain and simple. You appear to have found a
tool that works better for you in the methods that you prefer to work
under. That doesn't diminish the usefulness of someone else's
preferred tool. Just because you like your table saw, that doesn't
mean that the usefulness of my old handsaw is diminished, it just
means we have additional options available. Options are a GOOD thing.

Abe Mathews
Jul 18 '05 #3

P: n/a
Abe Mathews:
the fact that there isn't a good IDE available


I use WingIDE, and I don't know what I'm missing. It just works for the
occasional debugging, and what else is there?

--
René Pijlman
Jul 18 '05 #4

P: n/a
Do what you like to do. Do what's fun. What does Julio like to do? Do that,
Julio.
"Self-trust is the first secret of success."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

"julio" <ju************@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ma**************************************@pyth on.org...


Sorry but there is no another way, c# .net and mono are going to rip
python, not because python is a bad lenguage, but because is to darn old
and it refuses to innovate things, to fix wrong things, just because
retarded backwards compatibility and because the python comunity and
developers refuses to consider tools as being almost as important as the
language itself.

What does c# .net has that python doesnt ? (significant features)

-- tools,tools,tools : have people that likes python ever used an ide? i
mean a good ide, the one that saves you a lot of time, and makes you
productive.

looks like they havent, they think new people is willing to practice emacs for 6 months before even thinking about being productive, not to mention
you have to learn 20 years old list, and low level c stuff to have fully
advantage. Those guys are realy happy with their stuff that totaly,
completly refuses to try a new tool, a new tool that 'is' better, like say, an ide??.

Then we have the , you just need a text editor. This is realy amazing,
tecnology improves, people have to change their way of thinking, i realy
cant count the number of text editors avaiable for python, with basicaly
just syntax highlighting.For example, idle :

idle is just a text editor with syntax color,nothing else, then you see
that half of buttons are so fucking retarded things that you never
need,indentation stuff, replace tabs and all crap that you never realy
need, the class browser and path browser were in the right way, before they got abandoned with just the most basic low functionality.

No help in real programing? why? why do i need to press a retarded button
to indent-deindent reindent stuff but i dont need help with integrated help system , code completion , source assistant , a freaking decent calltips
support, etc ? It realy makes no sense , no sense at all.

Why do these people keep reinventing text editors again and again and again to just add some retarded functionality that noone ever needs? pycrust ,
drpython, leo , idle , eclipse plugins(py editors with color) they all love to reinvent the wheel instead of trying to work together on some common
project to do something usefull, boy if i want a text editor with syntax
color i just use vim,or kate or something.

For the C # Side there IS :

sharp develop, wich is going to be ported to linux and mac, and it is even better than vstudio! is open source .

monodevelop , which is a little inestable but very very usable , and has
real features!! proyect browsing , full calltips ,code completion,source
help, doc help system , you know , productivity features.
-- C # is almost perfetly designed, python is very well designed but it has some crap that obscurize it and is not going to be removed because of the
damn backwards compatibility thing, C # has all the advantages there is
new ,it has learned from other languages mistakes. Python must break
backward compatibility to be at the same level of play.
At least python has just a few problems in this area compared to java,which is 50% crap , just to hold backwards compatibility.

-- C # is easy to use,fast apps coding (as python) but!! it has all the
advantages of a compiled language , like less bugs concerning silly types
mistakes , ides and tools can take much much more advantage of static
typing , it is much much much faster , and finally is much more readable
than python since i dont have to be guessing in the woods to know what type of value a function return , or what types are the functions argument or
WTF does 'return MOM' means?

-- C # is killing python, first the gnome guys dont know what to choose for their core system development , if mono-C # ? or java ? the only reason C # hasnt being choosen is because of legal issues, and java? well it realy
sucks so no surprise , but is considered just because eclipse wich is the
most kick ass ide ever. AND they dont even consider python for a high level language to choose!!

Look at source-forge,(around) python : 3000 proyects , C # 1500 proyects
and C# is much younger than python, not to mention mono is new!! 2 times
more C # proyects are started than python proyects by month, so very soon
C# is going to completly replace python in their areas. Not to mention that C# proyects are generaly bigger, compared to small command line tools,
python proyects.

I think is a fact, reality , there is just no way python is going to
survive, i would be happy if someone knows or see something i dont ,
because i realy like python, but : C # which has all the m$ licenses and
crap involved is so superior to python in so many ways, its not even
funny,and C# has serius tools, ides ,etc. Look at
nhibernate,nunit,njasper,the super sharp-develop ,monodevelop,etc. BTW
wingware has a very nice ide, but close sourced and at a price of 200$ for
os is ridiculous,and their personal edition is pure crap, no
code-assistant ? lol. Is there a posibility python survives 2 years more at least?

Btw , nice quotes on python site : "Python has been an important part of
Google since the beginning, and remains so as the system grows and evolves. Today dozens of Google engineers use Python, and we're looking for more
people with skills in this language." said Peter Norvig, director of search quality at Google, Inc.

But the google code jam, the one google searchs for new hackers to join
their lines is only for c# , java , c++ , nice irony , lie,lie.

Jul 18 '05 #5

P: n/a
Abe Mathews wrote:

As for C# "killing" Python? I don't think so. There are still plenty
of folks programming in Fortran (and heck, some still in COBOL) for
crying out loud. C is still studied, used, and taught, even though
C++ was should have supplanted it. Maybe at some point Python will
stop being a major development language, but that doesn't mean it's
going to die.
Languages are tools, plain and simple. You appear to have found a
tool that works better for you in the methods that you prefer to work
under. That doesn't diminish the usefulness of someone else's
preferred tool. Just because you like your table saw, that doesn't
mean that the usefulness of my old handsaw is diminished, it just
means we have additional options available. Options are a GOOD thing.

Abe Mathews


If you consider a language used by 5 crazy guys not being dead then
fine.And maybe you can see languages as just interchangeable tools when you
just develop some custom system scripts, but when 90% of the developers
need to consider how many developers you will find to start a proyect, or
how the tools that increase your productivity are ,things looks diferent.

It is exactly as you said, options are good , and there are no options for a
real python ide other than the wingide guys sells their ide for a
ridiculously 200$ because they have no competition or because no one realy
cares about a real python ide.
Jul 18 '05 #6

P: n/a
Don't feed the troll.

If he needs an IDE, then he is not a programmer, he's a code monkey,
just like Java guys - they're a dime a dozen as they can't code, they
rely on the auto-completion and drag'n'drop of visual IDEs.

Jul 18 '05 #7

P: n/a
DilbertFan wrote:
Do what you like to do. Do what's fun. What does Julio like to do? Do
that, Julio.


mmm , i like to program , i like open source i hate m$ , i like python , i
dont like c# cause its still in m$ domains , i like c# monodevelop and
sharpdevelop and there is no real python ide avaiable so i dont have to
memorize the 2000 libraries and functions and their behavior to think about
programing seriusly, and the python proyects,adoption and development is
decreasing more and more. so ..
Jul 18 '05 #8

P: n/a
julio wrote:


Sorry but there is no another way, c# .net and mono are going to rip
python, not because python is a bad lenguage, but because is to darn old
and it refuses to innovate things, to fix wrong things, just because
retarded backwards compatibility and because the python comunity and
developers refuses to consider tools as being almost as important as the
language itself.

What does c# .net has that python doesnt ? (significant features)

-- tools,tools,tools : have people that likes python ever used an ide? i
mean a good ide, the one that saves you a lot of time, and makes you
productive.

looks like they havent, they think new people is willing to practice emacs
for 6 months before even thinking about being productive, not to mention
you have to learn 20 years old list, and low level c stuff to have fully
advantage. Those guys are realy happy with their stuff that totaly,
completly refuses to try a new tool, a new tool that 'is' better, like say,
an ide??.

Then we have the , you just need a text editor. This is realy amazing,
tecnology improves, people have to change their way of thinking, i realy
cant count the number of text editors avaiable for python, with basicaly
just syntax highlighting.For example, idle :

idle is just a text editor with syntax color,nothing else, then you see
that half of buttons are so fucking retarded things that you never
need,indentation stuff, replace tabs and all crap that you never realy
need, the class browser and path browser were in the right way, before they
got abandoned with just the most basic low functionality.

No help in real programing? why? why do i need to press a retarded button
to indent-deindent reindent stuff but i dont need help with integrated help
system , code completion , source assistant , a freaking decent calltips
support, etc ? It realy makes no sense , no sense at all.

Why do these people keep reinventing text editors again and again and again
to just add some retarded functionality that noone ever needs? pycrust ,
drpython, leo , idle , eclipse plugins(py editors with color) they all love
to reinvent the wheel instead of trying to work together on some common
project to do something usefull, boy if i want a text editor with syntax
color i just use vim,or kate or something.

For the C # Side there IS :

sharp develop, wich is going to be ported to linux and mac, and it is even
better than vstudio! is open source .

monodevelop , which is a little inestable but very very usable , and has
real features!! proyect browsing , full calltips ,code completion,source
help, doc help system , you know , productivity features.
-- C # is almost perfetly designed, python is very well designed but it has
some crap that obscurize it and is not going to be removed because of the
damn backwards compatibility thing, C # has all the advantages there is
new ,it has learned from other languages mistakes. Python must break
backward compatibility to be at the same level of play.
At least python has just a few problems in this area compared to java,which
is 50% crap , just to hold backwards compatibility.

-- C # is easy to use,fast apps coding (as python) but!! it has all the
advantages of a compiled language , like less bugs concerning silly types
mistakes , ides and tools can take much much more advantage of static
typing , it is much much much faster , and finally is much more readable
than python since i dont have to be guessing in the woods to know what type
of value a function return , or what types are the functions argument or
WTF does 'return MOM' means?

-- C # is killing python, first the gnome guys dont know what to choose for
their core system development , if mono-C # ? or java ? the only reason C #
hasnt being choosen is because of legal issues, and java? well it realy
sucks so no surprise , but is considered just because eclipse wich is the
most kick ass ide ever. AND they dont even consider python for a high level
language to choose!!

Look at source-forge,(around) python : 3000 proyects , C # 1500 proyects
and C# is much younger than python, not to mention mono is new!! 2 times
more C # proyects are started than python proyects by month, so very soon
C# is going to completly replace python in their areas. Not to mention that
C# proyects are generaly bigger, compared to small command line tools,
python proyects.

I think is a fact, reality , there is just no way python is going to
survive, i would be happy if someone knows or see something i dont ,
because i realy like python, but : C # which has all the m$ licenses and
crap involved is so superior to python in so many ways, its not even
funny,and C# has serius tools, ides ,etc. Look at
nhibernate,nunit,njasper,the super sharp-develop ,monodevelop,etc. BTW
wingware has a very nice ide, but close sourced and at a price of 200$ for
os is ridiculous,and their personal edition is pure crap, no
code-assistant ? lol. Is there a posibility python survives 2 years more at
least?

Btw , nice quotes on python site : "Python has been an important part of
Google since the beginning, and remains so as the system grows and evolves.
Today dozens of Google engineers use Python, and we're looking for more
people with skills in this language." said Peter Norvig, director of search
quality at Google, Inc.

But the google code jam, the one google searchs for new hackers to join
their lines is only for c# , java , c++ , nice irony , lie,lie.

Juilio do what you like
go buy VS.net and leave clpy out of this.
a lot of devs don't need IDE working with Python
but if you really do want one, buy:
http://www.thekompany.com/products/blackadder/

oh and btw, there's also IronPython and 'boo'.
HTH
Jul 18 '05 #9

P: n/a
Simon John wrote:
Don't feed the troll.

If he needs an IDE, then he is not a programmer, he's a code monkey,
just like Java guys - they're a dime a dozen as they can't code, they
rely on the auto-completion and drag'n'drop of visual IDEs.


That's a little unfair (and trollish) of IDE users. Microsoft doesn't
spend millions developing it's IDEs just for fun. IBM doesn't support
projects like Eclipse because they want more "stupid untalented code
monkeys". An IDE can be invaluable in a large project. The near default
availability of simplistic IDEs like IDLE and Pythonwin is be proof
enough of their inherent value.
Jul 18 '05 #10

P: n/a
go away, troll
Jul 18 '05 #11

P: n/a
Jeremy Bowers wrote:
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:58:44 -0400, julio wrote:
It realy makes no sense , no sense at all.


C# is that-a-way --->

HTH.


So am i missing something ? are any of my arguments wrong ? again :

monodevelop is free
sharpdevelop is free and is going to be ported to linux next version

Jul 18 '05 #12

P: n/a
On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 19:53 -0400, julio wrote:
So am i missing something ? are any of my arguments wrong ? again :


The fundamental problem with your arguments/complaints is that you
somehow think that someone, somewhere on this list owes you something.
Python (unlike C#, Mono being an exception) is, for the most part, a
volunteer effort. I suppose next you'll be going to the local food
shelter and complaining that their sandwiches can't compete with
McDonalds.

If you want an IDE and you know what makes a good one, then you should
write one. Better yet, help out on one of the existing ones (i.e. Boa
Constructor, Anjuta) and help shape it into what you think an IDE should
be.

Regards,
Cliff

--
Cliff Wells <cl************@comcast.net>

Jul 18 '05 #13

P: n/a
I beg to differ...
If you consider a language used by 5 crazy guys not being dead then
fine.
There are people still using dBASE III and dBASE IV. At least, Rip Curl
(surf ans sports apparels) are using it big time. People thought that
dBASE is dead, way dead, and nobody uses or learns it anymore. Yes, the
market for dBASE IV is really tiny, but there are even small numbers of
programmers to support and to maintain legacy systems. You don't just
snap the fingers and world-wide systems change. In the end, these small
groups of people working on dBASE IV are earning big bucks.

I won't be surprised to find QBASIC still in use somewhere.

Sad to say, spagetti codes written in COBOL still needs to be maintained...

And maybe you can see languages as just interchangeable tools when you just develop some custom system scripts, but when 90% of the developers
need to consider how many developers you will find to start a proyect, or
how the tools that increase your productivity are ,things looks diferent.
True to say that IDE helps many programmers, especially beginners. But
do note that Java certification exams tests emphasizes on the SDK
itself. Make, GNU Make, Ant etc etc is still the norm today and I don't
see a movement of IDE-sizing them.
It is exactly as you said, options are good , and there are no options for a
real python ide other than the wingide guys sells their ide for a
ridiculously 200$ because they have no competition or because no one realy
cares about a real python ide.


I am using Eclipse with pydev support and Jython support. It works fine,
although I am hoping to see improved versions of it.
Jul 18 '05 #14

P: n/a
On 2004-09-20, Cliff Wells <cl************@comcast.net> wrote:
On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 19:53 -0400, julio wrote:
So am i missing something ? are any of my arguments wrong ? again :
The fundamental problem with your arguments/complaints is that you
somehow think that someone, somewhere on this list owes you something.


Bingo.

In addition, the argument that such and such a language is going to
wither away and "die" in the face of the popularity of another language
is an old troll that's been heard many times before about languages that
amazingly still find themselves to be the right tool for a specific job.
Bourne, awk and sed didn't vanish with perl. C++ didn't vanish in the
face of Java and Visual Basic.
If you want an IDE and you know what makes a good one, then you should
write one. Better yet, help out on one of the existing ones (i.e. Boa
Constructor, Anjuta) and help shape it into what you think an IDE should
be.
And if his isn't willing to participate in improving existing IDEs then
complaining about it on c.l.python is a waste of his time and ours. (Of
course, I can use a good waste of time right now.

Regards,
Cliff

--
Kirk Job-Sluder
"The square-jawed homunculi of Tommy Hilfinger ads make every day an
existential holocaust." --Scary Go Round
Jul 18 '05 #15

P: n/a
Languages don't die, dying is a personified concept. Languages are just
less use or more used.

Is latin dead? Think again, the term "doctor" is latin. All your medical
doctors have MBBS (Medicus Baccalaureus, Bachelor of Surgery)...
Jul 18 '05 #16

P: n/a
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:53:38 -0400, julio wrote:
So am i missing something ? are any of my arguments wrong ?


Your arguments are *boring*. You think in zero-sum terms. I wouldn't
refute your "arguments", I'd have to refute your entire boring
*philosophy*. If I shared your philosophy, I'd be in either Java or .NET.
Python isn't .NET, isn't going to be .NET, *shouldn't* be .NET just
because some random "julio" wants Python to be .NET. Obligatory mentioning
of IronPython and standard exhortation to go forth and Google.

You weren't arguing, you were declaring and trolling. Meeting your
trolling with arguments is the wrong answer.

Again, C# and its community, wherein I'm sure you'll find a lot of
support and agreement, is that-a-way --->

Jul 18 '05 #17

P: n/a
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:28:12 +0000, Kirk Job-Sluder wrote:
In addition, the argument that such and such a language is going to wither
away and "die" in the face of the popularity of another language is an old
troll that's been heard many times before about languages that amazingly
still find themselves to be the right tool for a specific job. Bourne, awk
and sed didn't vanish with perl. C++ didn't vanish in the face of Java
and Visual Basic.


Which is an elaboration of what I meant by "boring". Been here, heard
this, ain't worth refuting due to fundamental misconceptions.
Jul 18 '05 #18

P: n/a
Istvan Albert wrote:
go away, troll


Nice argument.

And my the facts are not just about ides, as i mentioned in the original
mail. Is people so close minded to resist change ? things change , is
human's nature to resist the change.

But am i lying? am i missing something ? is python just suited for small
system programing scripts ? why does gnome team doesnt even bother to
consider python as an option, but considers java just because eclipse?

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/app...9166682,00.htm

what about google ?

http://www.topcoder.com/pl/?&module=...04&d2=overview

what about sourceforge ?

http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/t...p?form_cat=160

But why so much resistence to the change ? is the denyal of reality fine?
why dont you care? i wouldnt care if i used python for small system
scripts.

Jul 18 '05 #19

P: n/a
On 2004-09-20, julio <ju************@yahoo.com> wrote:
Istvan Albert wrote:
go away, troll
Nice argument.


An accurate one though, but I'm feeling bored.
And my the facts are not just about ides, as i mentioned in the original
mail. Is people so close minded to resist change ? things change , is
human's nature to resist the change.


What are you advocating for? Better IDEs, or abandoning python? You've
complained a lot, but you have not really said much about how the people
who use python should change.

But why are you so closed minded to resist the possibility that many
people find python to be *a* solution for the problems that *they*
solve.

I mean, if you don't like working with python, go forth, find a language
you love, marry it, and make lots and lots of happy programs. Why
complain about the relationship other people have with their favorite
programming languages?

--
Kirk Job-Sluder
"The square-jawed homunculi of Tommy Hilfinger ads make every day an
existential holocaust." --Scary Go Round
Jul 18 '05 #20

P: n/a
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:13:39 -0400, julio wrote:
But why so much resistence to the change ?


Why do you care?

Are you being paid to care?

If people come up with good answers to your questions, will you devote
your personal time to helping implement them?

In light of the fact the answer to that is almost certainly "no", why
should we care what you think?

Do you think the answers to these questions have more to do with your cool
reception then "resistance to change"?

Let me help you with that one: Yes.

I have to say, from my point of view, you are advocating moving
*backwards*. You will interpret that as resistance to change. I feel I
must invoke the parable of Blub here:

http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html

C# is your Blub.

Jul 18 '05 #21

P: n/a
On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 21:13 -0400, julio wrote:
But why so much resistence to the change ? is the denyal of reality fine?
why dont you care? i wouldnt care if i used python for small system
scripts.


Julio, you have convinced me. I *am* going to change. I am going to
double my productivity by not reading or responding to silly postings
like this anymore. I doubt any IDE in the world is going to bring back
the time everyone here (yourself included) has wasted listening to you
berate people for not programming the way you do.

Regards,
Cliff

--
Cliff Wells <cl************@comcast.net>

Jul 18 '05 #22

P: n/a
julio wrote:

With a subject like that, you don't really need to read the message to figure
out that it's an obvious troll. I don't want to feed it, but between all the
"crap" and "retarded" rhetoric, some actual points can be discerned. A few
comments are in order...
What does c# .net has that python doesnt ? (significant features)

-- tools,tools,tools : have people that likes python ever used an ide? i
mean a good ide, the one that saves you a lot of time, and makes you
productive.
Such an IDE will only make you significantly more productive if the language is
inherently *UN*productive. There's a reason full-fledged IDEs are popular with
languages like Java and C# and less popular with Python. I haven't done much
Java programming, but when I did, I was constantly looking up stuff (classes,
methods, types, etc); in that kind of environment, code completion, tooltips
etc are very useful. Without them, programming in these languages is (even
more of) a pain. In Python, I don't very often need to look things up, and if
I do, the interactive interpreter can be a great help. As a result, a text
editor suffices for most Python programming, even for large projects. (Some
people might want to use an IDE anyway, but that is mostly a matter of
preference, not of necessity.)
-- C # is almost perfetly designed, python is very well designed but it has
some crap that obscurize it and is not going to be removed because of the
damn backwards compatibility thing,
The "damn backwards compatibility thing" guarantees that older Python code
still runs, more or less unchanged, on recent interpreters. (Well, most of the
time.)
-- C # is easy to use,fast apps coding (as python) but!! it has all the
advantages of a compiled language , like less bugs concerning silly types
mistakes , ides and tools can take much much more advantage of static
typing , it is much much much faster , and finally is much more readable
than python since i dont have to be guessing in the woods to know what type
of value a function return , or what types are the functions argument or
WTF does 'return MOM' means?
This is only an issue if you think the actual types of things are important.
Code like

def foo(x, y):
x.this()
y.that()

doesn't *need* types. All Python cares about is that x has the this() method,
and that y has the that() method. The actual types are unimportant. This is
an important difference from languages like C# (and Java, ObjectPascal, C++,
yadda yadda), and allows for entirely different coding styles and design. If
you think this is a problem or a deficiency, then you don't understand what
Python (or dynamic languages in general, really) is all about.
-- C # is killing python, first the gnome guys dont know what to choose for
their core system development , if mono-C # ? or java ? the only reason C #
hasnt being choosen is because of legal issues, and java? well it realy
sucks so no surprise , but is considered just because eclipse wich is the
most kick ass ide ever. AND they dont even consider python for a high level
language to choose!!


If they're choosing between Java and C#, they were obviously not interested in
high-level languages. Also, the article you mention in another post
(http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/app...9166682,00.htm) says:

"""Waugh conceded that the decision to move to a higher level programming
language is partly a political one. Two major corporate backers of the GNOME
project have competing technologies -- Novell with the Mono project and Sun
Microsystems with Java."""

--
Hans Nowak (ha**@zephyrfalcon.org)
http://zephyrfalcon.org/

Jul 18 '05 #23

P: n/a
Thank you Julio, I'm now beginning to see the error of my ways in
developing GUI software in Vim. I didn't know that it was so difficult
and futile until I read these posts. So I'm going to give up on it and
now put all of my effort into porting VisualStudio to Linux so I can
write GUI apps in Visual Basic the way they were meant to be written.

On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:53:23 -0700, Cliff Wells
<cl************@comcast.net> wrote:
On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 21:13 -0400, julio wrote:
But why so much resistence to the change ? is the denyal of reality fine?
why dont you care? i wouldnt care if i used python for small system
scripts.


Julio, you have convinced me. I *am* going to change. I am going to
double my productivity by not reading or responding to silly postings
like this anymore. I doubt any IDE in the world is going to bring back
the time everyone here (yourself included) has wasted listening to you
berate people for not programming the way you do.

Regards,
Cliff

--
Cliff Wells <cl************@comcast.net>

--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list


--
Stand Fast,
tjg.
Jul 18 '05 #24

P: n/a
julio wrote:
No help in real programing?
If you work on the Windows platform then take a look at
the Zeus programmers editor:

http://www.zeusedit.com/lookmain.html
why? why do i need to press a retarded button
to indent-deindent reindent stuff but i dont need help with
Zeus has SmartIndent which automatically handles the indenting
of code. When it comes to indenting it even understands the
special needs of Python :)
integrated help system,
Zeus has QuickHelp. Point it a WinHelp or HtmlHelp file and it
will do the rest:

http://www.zeusedit.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=7
code completion, source assistant, a freaking decent calltips
support, etc ?


Zeus has templates macros even intellisensing. You can also
write macros using Python.

Best of all Zeus does not care language you program in. It will
also work just as well as an IDE for c# :)

Jussi Jumppanen
http://www.zeusedit.com
Jul 18 '05 #25

P: n/a
julio <ju************@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:ma**************************************@pyth on.org:
I think is a fact, reality , there is just no way python is going to
survive, i would be happy if someone knows or see something i dont ,
because i realy like python,


Not just *someone* - On the basis of this rant I think the set of people
who "someone knows or see something" you don't would include about 85% of
the population!!

Now, quit trolling and go back to class!
Jul 18 '05 #26

P: n/a
Rene Pijlman wrote:
Abe Mathews:
the fact that there isn't a good IDE available


I use WingIDE, and I don't know what I'm missing. It just works for the
occasional debugging, and what else is there?


What does an IDE really do beyond editing + debugging? Because of
Python's dynamic nature, I've never needed a debugger, print statements
always worked perfectly. As for editing, well, I like Vim.

regards,
Gerrit.

--
Weather in Twenthe, Netherlands 20/09 08:55:
13.0°C Few clouds mostly cloudy wind 5.8 m/s SSW (57 m above NAP)
--
Gerrit Holl - 2nd year student of Applied Physics, Twente University, NL.
Experiences with Asperger's Syndrome:
EN http://topjaklont.student.utwente.nl/english/
NL http://topjaklont.student.utwente.nl/
Jul 18 '05 #27

P: n/a
In article <10**********************@k26g2000oda.googlegroups .com>,
"Simon John" <si************@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
Don't feed the troll.

If he needs an IDE, then he is not a programmer, he's a code monkey,
just like Java guys - they're a dime a dozen as they can't code, they
rely on the auto-completion and drag'n'drop of visual IDEs.


Just my 2 cents.

I would love it if Python had an ide like Smalltalk's.
Jul 18 '05 #28

P: n/a
"Chris S." <ch*****@NOSPAM.udel.edu> wrote in news:yXo3d.1565$kn2.933
@trndny07:
IBM doesn't support
projects like Eclipse because they want more "stupid untalented code
monkeys".


Actually, they do, very much!

Stupid == Cost Effective --> Good Bottomline --> Large Bonus to
Management!!

The Holy Grail of software delopment is to be able to have a few
"architects" specify in suffiecient detail so the "builders" (i.e.
Trained Monkeys) can produce completed applications;

The problem is of course that one spend soo much time "specifying" that
by the time the "monkeys" could possibly do the job, it is already 90%
done (Then Management spend another 100% on getting the "monkeys" to
implement the remaining 10% witout messing up the rest ;-).

Unfortunately, that's what keep Management busy & happy - and if it
worked for Henry Ford 100 years ago, then it has better be made to work
for software too.
Jul 18 '05 #29

P: n/a
julio <ju************@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:ma**************************************@pyth on.org:

mail. Is people so close minded to resist change ? things change , is
human's nature to resist the change.


*I*, for one, am not opposed to changing your face, Troll.
Jul 18 '05 #30

P: n/a
>>>>> "Julio" == julio <ju************@yahoo.com> writes:

Julio> mmm , i like to program , i like open source i hate m$ , i
Julio> like python , i dont like c# cause its still in m$ domains
Julio> , i like c# monodevelop and sharpdevelop and there is no
Julio> real python ide avaiable so i dont have to memorize the
Julio> 2000 libraries and functions and their behavior to think
Julio> about programing seriusly, and the python proyects,adoption
Julio> and development is decreasing more and more. so ..

I don't really believe in extrapolating too much from the textual
characteristics of your post, but I think you'd do much better by
picking a statically typed language like C# for your proyects.

--
Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb
Jul 18 '05 #31

P: n/a
Am Montag, 20. September 2004 11:36 schrieb Ville Vainio:
I don't really believe in extrapolating too much from the textual
characteristics of your post, but I think you'd do much better by
picking a statically typed language like C# for your proyects.


LOLOL!

+1 for comment of the week...

Heiko.
Jul 18 '05 #32

P: n/a
Am Montag, 20. September 2004 05:17 schrieb Hans Nowak:
julio wrote:
-- C # is killing python, first the gnome guys dont know what to choose
for their core system development , if mono-C # ? or java ? the only
reason C # hasnt being choosen is because of legal issues, and java? well
it realy sucks so no surprise , but is considered just because eclipse
wich is the most kick ass ide ever. AND they dont even consider python
for a high level language to choose!!


If they're choosing between Java and C#, they were obviously not interested
in high-level languages. Also, the article you mention in another post
(http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/app...9166682,00.htm)
says:

"""Waugh conceded that the decision to move to a higher level programming
language is partly a political one. Two major corporate backers of the
GNOME project have competing technologies -- Novell with the Mono project
and Sun Microsystems with Java."""


<quote>
"In the meantime a lot of software has been written in Python," he said. "But,
as yet we have not written anything in the official GNOME release in a
language other than C. We have included bindings for Java, so you can use the
GNOME libraries directly from Java which means you don't have to use that
awful Swing. We also have C++, Perl and Python bindings. All are supported we
just haven't committed to any of them yet for core GNOME modules."
</quote>

(from just that same article you quoted)

I wonder what this comment means? Python is mentioned as the first language by
GNOME's head maintainer, so I guess he can't be all that Python-hostile, can
he? Much rather, he's forced to do a political decision, and the PSF doesn't
fund GNOME yet, I hope. I wouldn't mind them funding KDE e.V., though... Let
the flamewars begin. ;)

Heiko.
Jul 18 '05 #33

P: n/a
* julio (2004-09-20 01:53 +0200)
Jeremy Bowers wrote:
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:58:44 -0400, julio wrote:
It realy makes no sense , no sense at all.


C# is that-a-way --->

So am i missing something ? are any of my arguments wrong ? again :


Let me correct this:
"So am I missing something? Are any of my arguments wrong? Again:"

Maybe there is no real enterprise class IDE for Python but Python
won't "die" of that. As many people have stated: because of the
exorbitant complexity of C++ and Java these languages need an IDE to
master them while Python doesn't.

But anyway: the days of one-language IDEs are gone. Do you want a
different IDE for all your programming languages? Komodo is a step
into the right direction.

Your other "arguments": The google jam doesn't look for Perl or C
programs either. Does it mean that Perl or C are going to die?

C# may have all the advantages a compiled language has - but also
every disadvantage. Do you really think that you will get a clue what
"return MOM" means - just because you know it returns a string? The
type of an object is not important.

By the way: mind your language. If you want to be taken seriuosly, you
shouldn't write like a twelve year old child on steroids.

Thorsten
Jul 18 '05 #34

P: n/a
julio <ju************@yahoo.com> writes:
Abe Mathews wrote:

As for C# "killing" Python? I don't think so. There are still plenty
of folks programming in Fortran (and heck, some still in COBOL) for
crying out loud. C is still studied, used, and taught, even though
C++ was should have supplanted it. Maybe at some point Python will
stop being a major development language, but that doesn't mean it's
going to die.


Languages are tools, plain and simple. You appear to have found a
tool that works better for you in the methods that you prefer to work
under. That doesn't diminish the usefulness of someone else's
preferred tool. Just because you like your table saw, that doesn't
mean that the usefulness of my old handsaw is diminished, it just
means we have additional options available. Options are a GOOD thing.

Abe Mathews


If you consider a language used by 5 crazy guys not being dead then
fine. And maybe you can see languages as just interchangeable tools when you
just develop some custom system scripts, but when 90% of the developers
need to consider how many developers you will find to start a proyect, or
how the tools that increase your productivity are ,things looks diferent.

It is exactly as you said, options are good , and there are no options for a
real python ide other than the wingide guys sells their ide for a
ridiculously 200$ because they have no competition or because no one realy
cares about a real python ide.


"no one realy cares about a real python ide". It's this the point... Ask
you why no one cares about a what you call a "real python ide". Simply
because we don't need, python is so clear, so simple, so efficient that
we don't need that a program take our hand to program. Why we don't need
a graphical tools to design gui or report ? not because we just write
litle script but the opposite. Big application with hundred of ui and
hundred of rapports will be a big pain and unmaintainable to do it with
mouse ! And finaly if you do litle application you don't really need a
complex graphical ide...
Graphical ide are good for bad langages that nobody want to learn and
remember. For example when i must use msaccess, i'm happy to can click
everywhere. But if i need to do something serious with the database i
create an odbc link and code in python+emacs.

Maybe you don't like or understand python, but you will not like it more
with any ide i think.

Before C# it was java, it was VB, it was plenty of graphical ide that
could "kill python", strangely, python was never so full of live !

--
Wilk - http://flibuste.net
Jul 18 '05 #35

P: n/a
* Hans Nowak (2004-09-20 05:17 +0200)
-- C # is almost perfetly designed, python is very well designed but it has
some crap that obscurize it and is not going to be removed because of the
damn backwards compatibility thing,


The "damn backwards compatibility thing" guarantees that older Python code
still runs, more or less unchanged, on recent interpreters. (Well, most of the
time.)


I've never seen such a "progressive" language as Python. Not many
people care about "backwards compatibility" to Python 1.5.2 for
instance.

New language constructs are rapidly adopted; often you can hear
someone say: "in Python 2.4 you could write this as..." ... and noone
objects. Now if that isn't progressive...

Thorsten
Jul 18 '05 #36

P: n/a
Am Montag, 20. September 2004 13:25 schrieb Thorsten Kampe:
New language constructs are rapidly adopted; often you can hear
someone say: "in Python 2.4 you could write this as..." ... and noone
objects. Now if that isn't progressive...


It's not about code written for 2.4 being backwards compatible to 1.5.2 (this
is also complicated by the fact that the stdlib is constantly growing, and
that's fine), but that code which was written for 1.5.2 will still run on
2.4... And that's a big help!

Heiko.
Jul 18 '05 #37

P: n/a
julio wrote:
-- tools,tools,tools : have people that likes python ever used an ide?
i mean a good ide, the one that saves you a lot of time, and makes you
productive.
If I understand you right, this is the key crux to your argument.

Languages don't die, they just go away for a while to return again
later. Killing a language is very, very, very difficult. People have
been trying to do this to Lisp, COBOL and FORTRAN for decades now, and
not succeeded yet. Mere apathy very rarely works.

(not entirely serious, but hopefully you get the point :)
Is there a posibility python survives 2 years more at least?


Yes. It's survived in an evolving form despite the growth of C++, Java,
C#, Perl over it's lifespan.
Michael.
--
Mi************@rd.bbc.co.uk
British Broadcasting Corporation, Research and Development
Kingswood Warren, Surrey KT20 6NP

This message (and any attachments) may contain personal views
which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
Jul 18 '05 #38

P: n/a
I remembered, that I've already read something very similar.

Look here:
http://groups.google.de/groups?hl=de...hknews01#link1

Or just search for C# Python in c.l.p
Jul 18 '05 #39

P: n/a
On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:20:27 +0200, Gerrit <ge****@nl.linux.org>
declaimed the following in comp.lang.python:

What does an IDE really do beyond editing + debugging? Because of
Python's dynamic nature, I've never needed a debugger, print statements
always worked perfectly. As for editing, well, I like Vim.
For pure coding, not much...

The only features of VS that I found important was the GUI
builder/code stub portion; and that mostly because of M$s lack of easily
found and understandable documentation on how to write such an
application from scratch.

The old SAS/C (on my ancient Amiga) didn't have an IDE -- but it
did have AREXX linkages so that the compiler error report
program/listing could invoke the editor positioning the cursor on the
file/line/column from the error message.

-- ================================================== ============ <
wl*****@ix.netcom.com | Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG <
wu******@dm.net | Bestiaria Support Staff <
================================================== ============ <
Home Page: <http://www.dm.net/~wulfraed/> <
Overflow Page: <http://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/> <

Jul 18 '05 #40

P: n/a
Julio, are you aware of projects such as Ironpython?
Soon you'll be able to use python from within Visual Studio or, better
yet, SharDevelop or MonoDevelop. So you'll have an excellent IDE and
an excellent language. Just wait and see...

Regarding your rant, I'm not very impressed by your language nor your
manners but I understand your point. Perhaps you didn't know that
there are IDE's for Python already. You can use Boa Constructor or,
for a simplest and easiest alternative, PythonCard (both are free and
cross-platform).
For a commercial alternative, you have BlackAdder, and I'm sure there
are others, although I haven't tried them.
Jul 18 '05 #41

P: n/a
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:01:00 -0400, "RPM1" <rp**********@direcway.com>
wrote:
I do notice though that when I try to convince a co-worker to try Python,
the thing that seems to be the biggest turn off is the lack of an IDE with a
GUI designer included standard


I agree. Once you're used to the productivity of Delphi or VB, it's a
big turn-off to have to go back to building GUI's by hand, and
shipping the 3MB DLL for wxWidgets is an extra reason why newbies
might give up on another excellent tool. Too bad Guido et al. didn't
take the GUI part into consideration earlier.

But then, maybe someone will come up with a good IDE + GUI designer as
part of the .Net shebbang.

Fred.
Jul 18 '05 #42

P: n/a
In article <0f********************************@4ax.com>,
Fred <fr**@acme.com> wrote:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:01:00 -0400, "RPM1" <rp**********@direcway.com>
wrote:
I do notice though that when I try to convince a co-worker to try Python,
the thing that seems to be the biggest turn off is the lack of an IDE with a
GUI designer included standard


I agree. Once you're used to the productivity of Delphi or VB, it's a
big turn-off to have to go back to building GUI's by hand, and
shipping the 3MB DLL for wxWidgets is an extra reason why newbies
might give up on another excellent tool. Too bad Guido et al. didn't
take the GUI part into consideration earlier.

Jul 18 '05 #43

P: n/a
Dave Cook <da******@nowhere.net> wrote:

julio wrote:
Sorry but there is no another way, c# .net and mono are going to rip
python, not because python is a bad lenguage, but because is to darn old
I don't really get the connection between the two. C# is a very different
type of language, with a different market.


I have to say that I disagree. Both are interpreted to an intermediate
language. Both have a substantial built-in library. Both are strongly
oriented towards network applications. They are different, sure, but they
are not "very different", in the same way that Python and C++ are "very
different".
And I still don't understand the "why" of mono.


Really? It seems quite clear to me. With Microsoft's considerable weight
behind it, for better or for worse, there are going to be a lot of .NET
managed applications built in the near future. Thanks to Mono, all of
those application BINARIES will run on Linux. Mono provides better support
immediately than what WINE provides after more than a decade.

I don't agree with the original poster, and we'll have to wait to see how
it all plays out, but the fact is that C# and the Common Language Runtime
really are a fundamentally good idea.
--
- Tim Roberts, ti**@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
Jul 18 '05 #44

P: n/a
Tom Cocagne wrote:
The one thing that I would like to see, however, (....admittedly a
dangerous statement considering that it could very well wind up getting me
*volunteered* to fix it... ;-) is a "GUI development in Python" page


That would be
http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/GuiProgramming.
There's not much there in term of comparisons, but as you volunteered...

Daniel
Jul 18 '05 #45

P: n/a
Alex Martelli wrote:
If you must troll, at least troll with some skill, "julio". Better
still, as many have already suggested, just go away, thanks.


Well, not to feed the troll, but there is a few relevant points in it's
posting.

When writing big systems, it is nice to be able to have an enviroment to
code in. Eg. an IDE.

I am mostly a Zope coder, and while it's a very powerfull system that
now makes it possible to do a huge amouont of work in a short time, it
has the famous Z-shaped learning curve.

It is really really hard to learn. This is caused by the system design
(Which should be solved with Zope3). But I cannot help to think that a
self-educating system would be of a big help. A system where
introspection was well supported.

They do it in Z3 by making the programmer make more work, but it could
probably have been nice if the language was able to do more of the work
in that regards.

I have a feeling that the typelessness of Python can make this harder.
Wrappers on top of wrappers on top of som kind unknown data type can be
really hard to trace.

Eg. if I call a method called getAuthenticatedMember() what does it return?

In plain Zope it returns a user object, but if you have added the CMF to
the system, it returns a user object that is wrapped with extra
functionality.

Also the membership tool is wrapped itself several times. In Zope it is
acl_users, in CMF it's the membership tool and in in Plone it's wrapped
once more, but still called the membership tool.

Each layer adds functionality. This makes it really hard to find out
what inteface you actually have available at what level.

An IDE that could make dynamic introspection on a system like that,
would be of a big help. I think that static typed systems might be
easier to write an introspective IDE for. This is an issue when the
system get's a lot bigger than the language.
--

hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark

http://www.mxm.dk/
IT's Mad Science
Jul 18 '05 #46

P: n/a
Max M <ma**@mxm.dk> wrote:
Alex Martelli wrote:
If you must troll, at least troll with some skill, "julio". Better
still, as many have already suggested, just go away, thanks.
Well, not to feed the troll, but there is a few relevant points in it's
posting.


(Please, please, please: "its", not "it's"... pretty please...)

When writing big systems, it is nice to be able to have an enviroment to
code in. Eg. an IDE.
Many people agree with you, enough to provide a commercial audience for
WingIDE, BlackAdder, Kommodo, ActiveState's addin to Microsoft Visual
Studio that lets you use VS as an IDE for Python, ...; and open-source
constituencies for plugins letting you use Eclipse, as well as self
contained IDEs. Nobody forces you to use one, but if you like them,
they're there.

self-educating system would be of a big help. A system where
introspection was well supported.
I've never used any language with better introspection facilities than
Python, not even Lisp.
They do it in Z3 by making the programmer make more work, but it could
probably have been nice if the language was able to do more of the work
in that regards.
The day the _language_ starts being designed to help IDEs to the
detriment of programmers who prefer not to use them, is the day I switch
to Ruby, Smalltalk, Common Lisp, Dylan, or ANY other language who keeps
being designed for human beings, not for tools.
An IDE that could make dynamic introspection on a system like that,
would be of a big help. I think that static typed systems might be
easier to write an introspective IDE for. This is an issue when the
system get's a lot bigger than the language.


I see your point (and a solid type system, like Haskell's, would surely
be more helpful in this regard than wobbly ones like Java's or C#'s).
But I consider the advantages of runtime typing to vastly surpass the
advantages of the simplification that compiletime typing can give to
compilers and other static analysis tools (IDEs included).

If you disagree, and crave compiletime typing, there is a huge array of
compiletime typed languages for you to choose among, including ones such
as bobo, designed to use compiletime typing but otherwise offer some
other Python advantages. The only sensible course of action for a
compiletime typing fan would seem to be to try out any or all of those
other 1000 languages, rather than fighting to foist such typing onto
those of us who consider runtime typing superior, and indeed one of
Python's greatest strengths.
Alex
Jul 18 '05 #47

P: n/a
>>>>> "Chris" == Chris Green <cm*@dok.org> writes:

Chris> http://cedet.sourceforge.net/semantic.shtml is a project
Chris> working on the backend parsing to be able to be at the
Chris> point where that context sensitive dynamic completions can
Chris> happen ( well, as well as they could in python ).

Are they really considering doing this properly for Python? I haven't
even got it running properly with C++, but that might be because I've
tried to do it in xemacs. Python should be viable for context
sensitive dynamic completion via type inference, it's just that it's a
lot of work, work that probably has zero chance of getting done within
the cedet project that is resource starved anyway.

That's the whole problem with emacs - lack of resources. Nobody
bothers do anything "seriously". And when people within the emacs
community do things they pick bizarre ways of doing things, possibly
because they are often Lisp lovers that like to "think different". And
stubborn ones at that.

Chris> I love emacs though I keep thinking one day that eclipse
Chris> will take over and would love for there to be an emacslike
Chris> engine on top of eclipse to access use
Chris> customizations/keybindings etc.

Eclipse will no doubt take over. I'm a long time emacs user and a fan,
but both the emacs projects seem to have stagnated, and part of the
problem is that there are two of them. Emacs might need a fresh start,
but it's hardly likely; most probably a new project would be seen as
further dillution of already scarce emacs resources.

Luckily we emacs fans still have hope in eclipse - what needs to be
implemented is a Jython API that allows customization of eclipse in
the way elisp works for emacs. Eclipse has broad industry support and
a fair share of enthusiasm working for it, while emacs just doesn't
seem to be what kids like to hack anymore.

--
Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb
Jul 18 '05 #48

P: n/a
Fred <fr**@acme.com> writes:
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:01:00 -0400, "RPM1" <rp**********@direcway.com>
wrote:
I do notice though that when I try to convince a co-worker to try Python,
the thing that seems to be the biggest turn off is the lack of an IDE with a
GUI designer included standard
I agree. Once you're used to the productivity of Delphi or VB, it's a
big turn-off to have to go back to building GUI's by hand, and


What do you mean "by hand" ? When you must use a mouse to make a gui,
you use your hand, but when you code a gui you use your head... Finaly
if you code the gui, you can reuse it and so don't need more any hand or
head for this.
shipping the 3MB DLL for wxWidgets is an extra reason why newbies
might give up on another excellent tool. Too bad Guido et al. didn't
take the GUI part into consideration earlier.
Guido took the GUI part in consideration when he decide that it's better
to let python as a langage and let people decide which library they
want, wich ide they prefer...
The mistake of java was to decide that they will do everything even the
gui (swing), since, everybody say that java is slow even if the langage
is very fast...

Don't forget that there is a lot of developers who don't need any gui,
or need a very specific gui. But every developers need python the
langage and the standard lib...

I encourage people to look at web application ;-)

But then, maybe someone will come up with a good IDE + GUI designer as
part of the .Net shebbang.


There are, it's just to choose...

--
Wilk - http://flibuste.net
Jul 18 '05 #49

P: n/a

"Toni Kantola" <tk*@poi.sta.kungens.kemi.fi.invalid> wrote ...
In article <2r*************@uni-berlin.de>, RPM1 wrote:

I do notice though that when I try to convince a co-worker to try Python, the thing that seems to be the biggest turn off is the lack of an IDE with a GUI designer included standard. I guess my point is that the lack of a
standard GUI designer is not going to bother people who know Python, but it will prevent some, (perhaps many), outsiders from ever knowing Python
because they can't imagine programming without the IDE/GUI designer. I know there are GUI designers available, but by the time you begin to tell
somebody that, they're already shaking their head and walking away.


And you haven't tried kdevelop with qtdesigner?
Or some similar combination of GTK-based IDEs/tools?


Is it available on Windows? Does one need to download 2 or
3 different packages with different licensing?

If that's the case then it would be a hard sell in a
Windows environment.

Keeping in mind that it doesn't matter to *me* because I
code my GUI's in Tkinter. It's when I try to convince
co-workers that Python is worth looking into that I come
across these objections.

The product that came closest to what I'm envisioning was
PythonWorks. It used the included Tkinter libraries and
it was relatively expensive, (which for some strange reason
makes it more trustworthy to Windows people). It was
basically an all-in-one package. Unfortunately it's no longer
available, (probably because Pythonistas are more likely
to piece together what they want for free rather than pay
hundreds of dollars to get one package).

Oh well, hopefully IronPython will be a success.
Patrick
Jul 18 '05 #50

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