Idle won't start

[Kerry Neilson]

For the past couple of months, Idle won't start when I invoke it. I
am at a complete loss for why this is. When this happens, they python
command line still starts, and python works fine otherwise.
Most interesting to me is that a reboot won't fix the problem. But if
I just try it again sometime later it will work. Anyone have any
ideas? I'm running python 2.3 on windows 2000 professional.

[python newbie]

You didn't by any chance create a batch routine that sometimes creates a
file by
the name of "<python dir>\Lib\idlelib\idle.pyw" did you.

"Kerry Neilson" <km******@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ec**************************@posting.google.c om...

For the past couple of months, Idle won't start when I invoke it. I
am at a complete loss for why this is. When this happens, they python
command line still starts, and python works fine otherwise.
Most interesting to me is that a reboot won't fix the problem. But if
I just try it again sometime later it will work. Anyone have any
ideas? I'm running python 2.3 on windows 2000 professional.

[Michael Hudson]

km******@yahoo.com (Kerry Neilson) writes:

For the past couple of months, Idle won't start when I invoke it. I
am at a complete loss for why this is. When this happens, they python
command line still starts, and python works fine otherwise.
Most interesting to me is that a reboot won't fix the problem. But if
I just try it again sometime later it will work. Anyone have any
ideas? I'm running python 2.3 on windows 2000 professional.

Do you have any firewall type software? Some Windows firewalls
apparently believe trying to open a socket to 127.0.0.1 is a dastardly
attempt to compromise your privacy...

Cheers,
mwh

--
If i don't understand lisp, it would be wise to not bray about
how lisp is stupid or otherwise criticize, because my stupidity
would be archived and open for all in the know to see.
-- Xah, comp.lang.lisp

[remco]

>km******@yahoo.com (Kerry Neilson) writes:

For the past couple of months, Idle won't start when I invoke it. I
am at a complete loss for why this is. When this happens, they python
command line still starts, and python works fine otherwise.
Most interesting to me is that a reboot won't fix the problem. But if
I just try it again sometime later it will work. Anyone have any
ideas? I'm running python 2.3 on windows 2000 professional.

Have you tried running it from the command line?
like: <your python dir>\lib\idlelib\idle.py
and see if it produces any error messages?

Cheers!
Remco Boerma

[Kerry Neilson]

"python newbie" <me*******@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Gk*******************@newssvr29.news.prodigy .com>...

You didn't by any chance create a batch routine that sometimes creates a
file by
the name of "<python dir>\Lib\idlelib\idle.pyw" did you.

"Kerry Neilson" <km******@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ec**************************@posting.google.c om...

For the past couple of months, Idle won't start when I invoke it. I
am at a complete loss for why this is. When this happens, they python
command line still starts, and python works fine otherwise.
Most interesting to me is that a reboot won't fix the problem. But if
I just try it again sometime later it will work. Anyone have any
ideas? I'm running python 2.3 on windows 2000 professional.

Not that I am aware of, but I do have this file. Is it a problem?

[Kerry Neilson]

Michael Hudson <mw*@python.net> wrote in message news:<m3************@pc150.maths.bris.ac.uk>...

km******@yahoo.com (Kerry Neilson) writes:

For the past couple of months, Idle won't start when I invoke it. I
am at a complete loss for why this is. When this happens, they python
command line still starts, and python works fine otherwise.
Most interesting to me is that a reboot won't fix the problem. But if
I just try it again sometime later it will work. Anyone have any
ideas? I'm running python 2.3 on windows 2000 professional.

Do you have any firewall type software? Some Windows firewalls
apparently believe trying to open a socket to 127.0.0.1 is a dastardly
attempt to compromise your privacy...

Cheers,
mwh

No firewall.

[Kerry Neilson]

"remco" <remco@localhost> wrote in message news:<3f*********************@news.xs4all.nl>...

km******@yahoo.com (Kerry Neilson) writes:

For the past couple of months, Idle won't start when I invoke it. I
am at a complete loss for why this is. When this happens, they python
command line still starts, and python works fine otherwise.
Most interesting to me is that a reboot won't fix the problem. But if
I just try it again sometime later it will work. Anyone have any
ideas? I'm running python 2.3 on windows 2000 professional.

Have you tried running it from the command line?
like: <your python dir>\lib\idlelib\idle.py
and see if it produces any error messages?

Cheers!
Remco Boerma

Yes. When idle won't work, even calling it from the cmd line doesn't
work. It's difficult to debug because it's inconsistent. It's
working fine at the moment.

[SteveB.]

No, I had a similar issue with something else, and it was because I
interfered with the app by creating a file with the same name. Just a
long shot.

Not that I am aware of, but I do have this file. Is it a problem?

[David MacQuigg]

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:39:50 -0700, David MacQuigg <sh****@127.0.0.1>
wrote:

On 14 Dec 2003 10:50:29 -0800, km******@yahoo.com (Kerry Neilson)
wrote:

For the past couple of months, Idle won't start when I invoke it. I
am at a complete loss for why this is. When this happens, they python
command line still starts, and python works fine otherwise.
Most interesting to me is that a reboot won't fix the problem. But if
I just try it again sometime later it will work. Anyone have any
ideas? I'm running python 2.3 on windows 2000 professional.

This might be a different problem if your problem is truly
intermittent, but I am finding that IDLE has conflicts with other
installed programs. I have been running Python 2.3 under Windows
XP-Home with no problem for the last few months. Yesterday I
installed Ruby 1.8.1-11 and now IDLE won't start. No response to
clicking the icon, selecting the menu item, Nada. Removing Ruby
restores IDLE.

With Ruby installed, when I run IDLE from a command line
C:\Python23\Lib\idlelib>idle.py
I get a message:
"""
_tkinter.TclError: Cant find a usable init.tcl in the following
directories: <c:\ruby\tcl\lib\tcl8.3> <c:\ruby\tcl\lib\tcl8.3>
c:/ruby/tcl/lib/tcl8.4 C:/Python23/lib/tcl8.4 C:/lib/tcl8.4
C:/library
This probably means that Tcl wasn't installed properly.
"""
I have no idea why IDLE is looking for library routines in the Ruby
subdirectories, or why all the strange variations in the search path
above, but it is clear that Ruby and IDLE cannot co-exist on one
computer.

Note: Re-installing Python23 after Ruby is installed doesn't help.
You have to remove Ruby completely.

-- Dave

More problems:
IDLE will start only if I never log off !!
If I log off and back on, IDLE fails to start, and I get the same
message as above.
Right after a re-install of Python 2.3.3, I can run IDLE, repeatedly,
with no problems, from my Admin account.
I'll try a complete uninstall of Python-2.3.3 ...
OK, I uninstalled everything except two DLL's in C:\WINDOWS\system32
The re-install looks normal. IDLE runs OK, but when I log on again,
it fails !!! Same message as above.

This is getting scary. I want my computer back !!. I'll try a
complete system restore.

That works. Python is happy. Sigh !!!

-- Dave

[Dennis Lee Bieber]

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:27:12 -0700, David MacQuigg <dm*@gain.com>
declaimed the following in comp.lang.python:

This is getting scary. I want my computer back !!. I'll try a
complete system restore.

That works. Python is happy. Sigh !!!
I was about to suggest checking either autoexec.bat (W9x) or the
registry (via "My Computer/properties/advanced/environment variables")
(NT) for some left-overs defining a TCL path...

-- ================================================== ============ <
wl*****@ix.netcom.com | Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG <
wu******@dm.net | Bestiaria Support Staff <
================================================== ============ <
Home Page: <http://www.dm.net/~wulfraed/> <
Overflow Page: <http://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/> <

[John Matthews]

In article <8e********************************@4ax.com>, shuvit@
127.0.0.1 says...

This might be a different problem if your problem is truly
intermittent, but I am finding that IDLE has conflicts with other
installed programs. I have been running Python 2.3 under Windows
XP-Home with no problem for the last few months. Yesterday I
installed Ruby 1.8.1-11 and now IDLE won't start. No response to
clicking the icon, selecting the menu item, Nada. Removing Ruby
restores IDLE.

With Ruby installed, when I run IDLE from a command line
C:\Python23\Lib\idlelib>idle.py
I get a message:
"""
_tkinter.TclError: Cant find a usable init.tcl in the following
directories: <c:\ruby\tcl\lib\tcl8.3> <c:\ruby\tcl\lib\tcl8.3>
c:/ruby/tcl/lib/tcl8.4 C:/Python23/lib/tcl8.4 C:/lib/tcl8.4
C:/library
This probably means that Tcl wasn't installed properly.
"""
I have no idea why IDLE is looking for library routines in the Ruby
subdirectories, or why all the strange variations in the search path
above, but it is clear that Ruby and IDLE cannot co-exist on one
computer.

Note: Re-installing Python23 after Ruby is installed doesn't help.
You have to remove Ruby completely.

-- Dave

I have similar problems at my office machine (Win2K Pro) and my home
machine (WinXP). I do not, nor have ever had Ruby installed. The problem
seems intermittent. I gave up and went back to Python 2.2. I hated to go
back because the 2.3 version of IDLE was nice, but I beleive that it is
somehow broken and will need to be fixed for me to use it again.

John

[Kurt B. Kaiser]

John Matthews <Jo**@the.computer> writes:

In article <8e********************************@4ax.com>, shuvit@
127.0.0.1 says...

This might be a different problem if your problem is truly
intermittent, but I am finding that IDLE has conflicts with other
installed programs. I have been running Python 2.3 under Windows
XP-Home with no problem for the last few months. Yesterday I
installed Ruby 1.8.1-11 and now IDLE won't start. No response to
clicking the icon, selecting the menu item, Nada. Removing Ruby
restores IDLE.

With Ruby installed, when I run IDLE from a command line
C:\Python23\Lib\idlelib>idle.py
I get a message:
"""
_tkinter.TclError: Cant find a usable init.tcl in the following
directories: <c:\ruby\tcl\lib\tcl8.3> <c:\ruby\tcl\lib\tcl8.3>
c:/ruby/tcl/lib/tcl8.4 C:/Python23/lib/tcl8.4 C:/lib/tcl8.4
C:/library
This probably means that Tcl wasn't installed properly.
"""
I have no idea why IDLE is looking for library routines in the Ruby
subdirectories, or why all the strange variations in the search path
above, but it is clear that Ruby and IDLE cannot co-exist on one
computer.

Note: Re-installing Python23 after Ruby is installed doesn't help.
You have to remove Ruby completely.

-- Dave

I have similar problems at my office machine (Win2K Pro) and my home
machine (WinXP). I do not, nor have ever had Ruby installed. The problem
seems intermittent. I gave up and went back to Python 2.2. I hated to go
back because the 2.3 version of IDLE was nice, but I beleive that it is
somehow broken and will need to be fixed for me to use it again.

The above error message is from the tcl_findLibrary procedure in
auto.tcl, in .../lib/tcl8.3 (or 8.4).

It's not IDLE, it's tcl looking for init.tcl. It appears to be saying
it can't source init.tcl in any of those directories.

Note that the OP appears to have both tcl8.3 and 8.4 installed? That
may be confusing auto.tcl, or perhaps Ruby changed the environment.
The '\' and '/' in the paths are suggestive.

One would have to trace the execution of tcl_findLibrary to figure
this one out. I don't have Ruby on my XP box or Win2K boxes, but
IDLE works fine. IDLE and Ruby should be able to play together,
but it may be necessary that they both use the same version of tcl.

Too many batteries :-)

===

As for John Matthews' problem, it would be helpful to see the actual
error messages. Please post to id******@python.org. "Similar" problems
are likely tcl/tk issues, and not necessarily due to the new IDLE.

--
KBK

[Rob Hawkins]

John Matthews wrote:

I have similar problems at my office machine (Win2K Pro) and my home
machine (WinXP). I do not, nor have ever had Ruby installed. The problem
seems intermittent. I gave up and went back to Python 2.2. I hated to go
back because the 2.3 version of IDLE was nice, but I beleive that it is
somehow broken and will need to be fixed for me to use it again.

John

I'm a brand-new Python user, and spent several hours with a somewhat
similar problem. I'm running Python 2.3 on Windows XP Home (SP1). When I
first installed from the Windows binary, IDLE would not run from the
shortcut that was created by the installer. Double-clicking created a
new process in Task Manager, but no window ever opened. When logging
off I'd get a message saying that an application was refusing to shut
down. Unfortunately, I can't recall the exact message--something about a
menu I think.

I found that the shortcut for IDLE was set up to start the Python EXE
with idle.pyw as an argument (along with the full path). I changed the
shortcut to simply point directly to idle.pyw and IDLE started working.
Now I'm back to reading the Python tutorial and doing "2+2" in IDLE!

Probably not the same problem, but perhaps it might help.

Rob

[Richard James]

David MacQuigg <sh****@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:<8e********************************@4ax.com>. ..

On 14 Dec 2003 10:50:29 -0800, km******@yahoo.com (Kerry Neilson)
wrote:
This might be a different problem if your problem is truly
intermittent, but I am finding that IDLE has conflicts with other
installed programs. I have been running Python 2.3 under Windows
XP-Home with no problem for the last few months. Yesterday I
installed Ruby 1.8.1-11 and now IDLE won't start. No response to
clicking the icon, selecting the menu item, Nada. Removing Ruby
restores IDLE.

With Ruby installed, when I run IDLE from a command line
C:\Python23\Lib\idlelib>idle.py
I get a message:
"""
_tkinter.TclError: Cant find a usable init.tcl in the following
directories: <c:\ruby\tcl\lib\tcl8.3> <c:\ruby\tcl\lib\tcl8.3>
c:/ruby/tcl/lib/tcl8.4 C:/Python23/lib/tcl8.4 C:/lib/tcl8.4
C:/library
This probably means that Tcl wasn't installed properly.
"""
I have no idea why IDLE is looking for library routines in the Ruby
subdirectories, or why all the strange variations in the search path
above, but it is clear that Ruby and IDLE cannot co-exist on one
computer.

Note: Re-installing Python23 after Ruby is installed doesn't help.
You have to remove Ruby completely.

-- Dave

The Ruby Windows Installer adds the following to your autoexec.bat
file.

--------

REM Ruby Install -- do not edit this line
set TCL_LIBRARY=c:\ruby\tcl\lib\tcl8.3
set RUBY_TCL_DLL=c:\ruby\bin\tcl83.dll
set RUBY_TK_DLL=c:\ruby\bin\tk83.dll
set PATH="c:\ruby\bin;%PATH%"
REM Ruby Install -- do not edit this line

---------

The key to the "problem" is in how TCL works. With the above
statements in your autoexec.bat file. Every time your computer boots,
the TCL_LIBRARY environment variable is set to the Ruby version.

When Python Idle runs TCL, TCL uses the TCL_LIBRARY environmental
variable to locate the "correct" version of the TCL library to use.
TCL is doing what it is designed to do. And Ruby is using a legal TCL
method to set it's path.

With that Ruby version installed, Ruby uses an old TCL version that
won't work with Python 2.3! When Ruby and Python distributions use the
same version of TCL, Idle will work fine.

I hate programs that change your autoexec.bat file "behind your back"
because of hard to understand problems just like this one.

Sometimes the uninstall doesn't work right and your autoexec.bat file
still sets TCL_LIBRARY to an old version even after Ruby is "removed".

Other third party software packages also could be setting TCL_LIBRARY
in the autoexec.bat file. I've also read that the TK_LIBRARY
environmental variable can cause problems as well.

Because of quirky TCL problems like this one, I've quit using TCL and
TK and use Gui4Cli and it's optional g4c.pyd Python dll for quick one
of a kind Python MS Windows programs. Gui4Cli is a script language
that makes native MS Windows GUI's very simple to create. You can also
use Gui4Cli to put a Windows GUI on dos command line programs or
integrate it with your C/C++ programs.

http://www.gui4cli.com

I like using the WSciTE editor from the Scintilla project.

http://www.scintilla.org/SciTE.html

You type your Python code in the editor window, Press F5, and it
displays your Python program output in a second window.
(You insert temporary print statements to "debug" your code.)

-- R.J

[David MacQuigg]

On 22 Feb 2004 12:17:56 -0800, rm******@yahoo.com (Richard James)
wrote:

David MacQuigg <sh****@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:<8e********************************@4ax.com>. ..

This might be a different problem if your problem is truly
intermittent, but I am finding that IDLE has conflicts with other
installed programs. I have been running Python 2.3 under Windows
XP-Home with no problem for the last few months. Yesterday I
installed Ruby 1.8.1-11 and now IDLE won't start. No response to
clicking the icon, selecting the menu item, Nada.

With Ruby installed, when I run IDLE from a command line
C:\Python23\Lib\idlelib>idle.py
I get a message:
"""
_tkinter.TclError: Cant find a usable init.tcl in the following
directories: <c:\ruby\tcl\lib\tcl8.3> <c:\ruby\tcl\lib\tcl8.3>
c:/ruby/tcl/lib/tcl8.4 C:/Python23/lib/tcl8.4 C:/lib/tcl8.4
C:/library
This probably means that Tcl wasn't installed properly.
"""
I have no idea why IDLE is looking for library routines in the Ruby
subdirectories, or why all the strange variations in the search path
above, but it is clear that Ruby and IDLE cannot co-exist on one
computer.

-- Dave

The Ruby Windows Installer adds the following to your autoexec.bat
file.

--------

REM Ruby Install -- do not edit this line
set TCL_LIBRARY=c:\ruby\tcl\lib\tcl8.3
set RUBY_TCL_DLL=c:\ruby\bin\tcl83.dll
set RUBY_TK_DLL=c:\ruby\bin\tk83.dll
set PATH="c:\ruby\bin;%PATH%"
REM Ruby Install -- do not edit this line

---------

The key to the "problem" is in how TCL works. With the above
statements in your autoexec.bat file. Every time your computer boots,
the TCL_LIBRARY environment variable is set to the Ruby version.

When Python Idle runs TCL, TCL uses the TCL_LIBRARY environmental
variable to locate the "correct" version of the TCL library to use.
TCL is doing what it is designed to do. And Ruby is using a legal TCL
method to set it's path.

After doing a complete system restore, I have IDLE working correctly,
and there is nothing in my AUTOEXEC.BAT file ( i.e. file-size = 0 ).
I would blame the Ruby installer for this particular mess. There may
be other problems with the way IDLE sets itself up, as discussed
elsewhere in this thread, but it seems to be running smoothly for me
now.
With that Ruby version installed, Ruby uses an old TCL version that
won't work with Python 2.3! When Ruby and Python distributions use the
same version of TCL, Idle will work fine.

I hate programs that change your autoexec.bat file "behind your back"
because of hard to understand problems just like this one.
Until they solve this problem, Ruby is banned from my Windows system.
I'm trying it now on my Debian Linux system, which won't be so much of
a problem if it gets trashed.
Sometimes the uninstall doesn't work right and your autoexec.bat file
still sets TCL_LIBRARY to an old version even after Ruby is "removed".

Other third party software packages also could be setting TCL_LIBRARY
in the autoexec.bat file. I've also read that the TK_LIBRARY
environmental variable can cause problems as well.
In the six months I have been running XP on both my desktop and my
laptop, I've had to restore the whole disk once on each system. The
laptop was a system crash that made it look like a disk hardware
problem. This failure to uninstall Ruby is a little surprising,
considering how smoothly Windows installs usually go using their
install wizard.
Because of quirky TCL problems like this one, I've quit using TCL and
TK and use Gui4Cli and it's optional g4c.pyd Python dll for quick one
of a kind Python MS Windows programs. Gui4Cli is a script language
that makes native MS Windows GUI's very simple to create. You can also
use Gui4Cli to put a Windows GUI on dos command line programs or
integrate it with your C/C++ programs.

http://www.gui4cli.com

I like using the WSciTE editor from the Scintilla project.

http://www.scintilla.org/SciTE.html

You type your Python code in the editor window, Press F5, and it
displays your Python program output in a second window.
(You insert temporary print statements to "debug" your code.)

I was never happy with Tk as a GUI toolkit, although I think it makes
sense as a freebie with Python, and with a little effort, you can make
a very nice GUI (e.g. IDLE itself). I use Qt Designer for building
GUI's to run on either Windows or Linux, and the more I use it, the
more I like it. This and IDLE and a little bit of glue make a killer
combo for cross-platform program development.

The glue is pyuic, which converts the XML from Qt Designer into
Python. With a makefile, it is only a few seconds from saving your
changes in Designer back to editing code in IDLE.

Thanks for your insights on this problem.

-- Dave

[David MacQuigg]

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:20:42 GMT, Dennis Lee Bieber
<wl*****@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:27:12 -0700, David MacQuigg <dm*@gain.com>
declaimed the following in comp.lang.python:

This is getting scary. I want my computer back !!. I'll try a
complete system restore.

That works. Python is happy. Sigh !!!

I was about to suggest checking either autoexec.bat (W9x) or the
registry (via "My Computer/properties/advanced/environment variables")
(NT) for some left-overs defining a TCL path...

IDLE has been working smoothly since banning Ruby from my system --
until today. The symptoms are as usual - click on the IDLE icon and
you see an hour glass for about 30 seconds - then nothing.

I tried closing all other applications - same problem.

With the Task Manager, I see about 8 pythonw.exe processes running!!
I killed them all. Now things seem back to normal.

The only thing I can think of that has been unusual in the last few
days is that I have been running IDLE simultaneously with Python from
the command line, and doing some testing in both windows of
computations involving illegal floating-point numbers ( inf and nan ).
This does not cause a crash, or anything beyond the usual traceback in
python.

I noticed that when I start Python from a command line, I get one
process (python.exe) in the Task Manager. When I start Python using
IDLE, I get two processes (both named pythonw.exe).

I tried starting and closing multiple copies of IDLE. This seems to
leave some zombie 'pythonw.exe' processes still alive. Another
strange phenomenon - I always get two more 'pythonw.exe' processes
with each start of IDLE, but sometimes I get an extra window, and
sometimes not. Closing the extra windows leaves one more
'pythonw.exe' than when I started, so they do accumulate.

-- Dave

[Kurt B. Kaiser]

David MacQuigg <dm*@gain.com> writes:

With the Task Manager, I see about 8 pythonw.exe processes running!!
I killed them all. Now things seem back to normal.
That's the right thing to do.

The only thing I can think of that has been unusual in the last few
days is that I have been running IDLE simultaneously with Python from
the command line,
This should not be a problem. I do it all the time.
and doing some testing in both windows of computations involving
illegal floating-point numbers ( inf and nan ). This does not cause
a crash, or anything beyond the usual traceback in python.

I noticed that when I start Python from a command line, I get one
process (python.exe) in the Task Manager. When I start Python using
IDLE, I get two processes (both named pythonw.exe).
Often you get three. The GUI, the subprocess mainthread, and the
subprocess socket_thread. On Unix, you get two.
I tried starting and closing multiple copies of IDLE.
Now this you don't want to do. Right now IDLE uses one port to
communicate with the subprocess and only one instance of IDLE with
subprocess is allowed. In the future IDLE will be enhanced to allow
multiple instances with subprocess.

You can run as many IDLE instances with the -n switch as you like in
parallel with the single instance of IDLE with subprocess.
This seems to leave some zombie 'pythonw.exe' processes still alive.
Yes, they are trying to connect to the GUI.

If you write code which causes the subprocess to block,
e.g. sleep(999) and then restart the shell, you will see a zombie left
behind. In 999 seconds it should disappear. But it is possible to
write code which blocks forever. On Unix, a restart also sends a
SIGKILL to the subprocess, which takes care of the zombies, but that
isn't available on Windows.
Another strange phenomenon - I always get two more 'pythonw.exe'
processes with each start of IDLE, but sometimes I get an extra
window, and sometimes not. Closing the extra windows leaves one more
'pythonw.exe' than when I started, so they do accumulate.

A couple of months ago improvements were made to the robustness of the
subprocess communication. If you can use the current CVS, you may get
better results and I'd be interested in hearing about any further
problems.

I'm away for a bit, so I can't follow up immediately.
--
KBK