Is Python your only programming language?

[Joe Cheng]

I'm curious about something... many Artima.com members who have a Java
background and learned Python have come to the conclusion that Java and
Python are highly complimentary languages. They would never consider
filling the place Java has in their toolbox with Python, but recognize there
are many tasks where it really pays to add Python to the mix.

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
and purposes, your only programming language?

[Ben Finney]

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:44:45 GMT, Joe Cheng wrote:

many [...] have come to the conclusion that Java and Python are highly
complimentary languages.
I think you mean "complementary"; I've never had a programming language
compliment me on anything, though it'd make a nice change from all those
error messages :-)
I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python)
Or do you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what
is it?
My professional programming these days is mostly sysadmin tool writing.
Where I used to use 70% shell with 30% perl, these days I do 80% python
with 20% shell. That probably reflects the ad-hoc, small-scope nature
of the tools I write though.

It also reflects the fact that I intend these tools to be maintainable
by others who don't necessarily know the languages I use inside out. I
would shudder to show a complex shell or perl script to a cow-orker, but
my Python scripts are easily explainable -- one cow-orker has
volunteered the comment that "it looks like pseudocode" :-)
And finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all
practical intents and purposes, your only programming language?

I do have several larger-scale programming projects in the back wings,
and those will be written entirely in Python. (Waiting has gained me
the incremental nice features of Python 2.3 :-)

--
\ "I know when I'm going to die, because my birth certificate has |
`\ an expiration date." -- Steven Wright |
_o__) |
Ben Finney <http://bignose.squidly.org/>

[Markus Jais]

Joe Cheng wrote:

I'm curious about something... many Artima.com members who have a Java
background and learned Python have come to the conclusion that Java and
Python are highly complimentary languages. They would never consider
filling the place Java has in their toolbox with Python, but recognize
there are many tasks where it really pays to add Python to the mix.

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or
do
you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it?
And finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical
intents and purposes, your only programming language?

at work I use mainly java and C.

at home when I programm for myself I normally use Python or Ruby.
it depends on the libraries available. I like both and use both.

I rarely use C or Java at home because with Python or Ruby I am much faster
in developing a solution. and I never use C++ at home.

and sometimes I play with PHP and Perl. just for fun.

Markus

[Doug Tolton]

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:44:45 GMT, "Joe Cheng" <co**@joecheng.com>
wrote:

I'm curious about something... many Artima.com members who have a Java
background and learned Python have come to the conclusion that Java and
Python are highly complimentary languages. They would never consider
filling the place Java has in their toolbox with Python, but recognize there
are many tasks where it really pays to add Python to the mix.

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
and purposes, your only programming language?

I know Java, C, C#, C++, Visual Basic, Python, Asp and now I'm getting
into Lisp and Scheme. I'm familiar with quite a few others, but these
are the ones I'm most comfortable with.

I write 90% of my code in python, maybe even 95%. I used to write
everything in C#, but I found that most of the time I was writing a
form that had buttons to push and a rich text box for output (at least
at my current position).

When we have to deploy an app with an ide we'll use either VB or C#,
and put the guts in python com classes which are called from the ide.
Python has great COM integration (much better than either C# or VB
incidentally), so it makes it really easy.

I do see a day when all my programming could be done in python
(although more likely it will all be done in Lisp). There are a few
things that need I need to learn how to do, but ultimately I believe
all the major pieces are in place.

- I need to learn wxPython or one of the variants on building good
cross platform guis better.
- I need to learn how to deploy apps to end users better
- I need to learn one of the web based python systems.

You'll note, these are all centered around technologies I need to
learn better, not techonlogies that need to be done still.

As for an IDE, I already have one, it's call Emacs.
Debugger, I just use pdb (althouh I wish it had, or I knew how to do
Edit and Continue)

[Max M]

Joe Cheng wrote:

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
and purposes, your only programming language?

I used to learn a new language a year. But i'm afraid that python has
made me lazy. It sort of killed the natural itch to learn new languages
by removing the little anoyances I used to have when programming.

So now I start up my editor in Python mode like a mindless zombie. It
has even gotten to the point that I use it for calculations instead of a
spreadsheet and pocket calculator.

But to keep up to date language wise I will look into other languages
again someday soon. I swear. hmm!

regards Max M

[Van Gale]

From my point of view (writing system applications, servers, web apps)
Python and Java fill the same space, which is one reason I don't know
much Java.

I used to use perl + shell for sysadmin type stuff, but now use Python
exclusively for that (well... maybe some shell still for really really
short scripts).

So, the only other language I really use is C (and not just for writing
extensions).

There are some areas where I would consider other languages, For
example I would consider using Delphi for Windows GUI apps. For Linux
GUI apps I might consider Objective C just for something different, but
most likely would choose Python and either Qt or GTK bindings.

[Fredrik Lundh]

Joe Cheng wrote:

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python)
yes.
And finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical
intents and purposes, your only programming language?

has been, since 1995.

</F>

[Carl Banks]

Joe Cheng wrote:

I'm curious about something... many Artima.com members who have a Java
background and learned Python have come to the conclusion that Java and
Python are highly complimentary languages. They would never consider
filling the place Java has in their toolbox with Python, but recognize there
are many tasks where it really pays to add Python to the mix.

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
and purposes, your only programming language?

For me, it's almost 100% Python + C extensions. Even the C extensions
are getting dubious: for my current project, I took the time to write
a C code generator in Python.

I use a smattering of Bourne Shell and Mathematica for their intended
purposes. I often used Fortran in research work and a few other
things. I use Java when I want to make an applet (rarely).

Any other language I use is either for fun, or to keep my programming
skills sharp.
--
CARL BANKS
"You don't run Microsoft Windows. Microsoft Windows runs you."

[Nikola Plejic]

In news:3F***************@alcyone.com,
Erik Max Francis <ma*@alcyone.com> wrote:

Joe Cheng wrote:

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python)
Or do
you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is
it? And
finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical
intents
and purposes, your only programming language?

I get paid to write C++ or C, use Python for recreational projects,
and use shell, Python, or (rarely) Perl for administration tasks. For
recreation and exploration I play around with a variety of other
languages, including Io, APL/J, Logo, Prolog, Scheme, and so on.

I use Python for most of my projects, but for web I use PHP. I also have some
knowledge of C++ (but very limited), and I am planning on expanding that
knowledge soon. I started learning C++ before Python, but when I saw Python, I
paused learning C++ and turned to Python.

Python can suit most of the programming needs today, but not all. It has
limitations, just as any other programming language and I think there will
always be cases where using some other programming language will be more
efficient or more suitable for some projects.

As for me, personally, Python suits my needs even now, as I am not some
advanced programmer, but I suppose I will see some limitations and downsides as
I progress.

I also play around with Visual Basic with my friend a bit when we're at school,
but he knows VB way better than I do.

--

Greets,
Nikola
( http://zweistein.cjb.net )

[Peter Hansen]

Joe Cheng wrote:

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it?
We do web, systems/application, and embedded programming (that's the kind of
thing where you have a little 16-bit micro with 1K of RAM to play with, nothing
to do with "embedding and extending" ala Python). The web work is all
Python (back end) plus a tiny bit of Javascript. The systems/app work is
all Python. The embedded stuff is part Python, on the larger embedded
system which can handle it, and part C, on the tiny micros where Python
has no hope, plus a few hundred lines of Assembly code.

On a day-to-day basis, over 95% of what we do is Python.
And finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all
practical intents and purposes, your only programming language?

No, unless we abandon all embedded programming. But if you exclude
that special area, where basically little but C has a foothold, and
you exclude the client-side web stuff where Javascript is the only
serious option, then we are already using Python as our *only* language,
and I have no intention of letting that change any time soon. There
is a *huge* benefit, often much underestimated, in maintaining only
a small set of technologies, including the programming languages a
company/individual actually uses (as opposed to those it knows of).

-Peter

[c42]

After college I started using VB & VBA for most of my bigger projects
and Winbatch for my system admin stuff. However, as my current company
has started to move more of its servers to Linux, I'm programming almost
exclusively in Python.

In the past I've used Komodo and found it to be very nice tool, but I'm
also keeping an eye on Boa Constructor with its advances as well.

In article <h9******************@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink .net>,
co**@joecheng.com says...

I'm curious about something... many Artima.com members who have a Java
background and learned Python have come to the conclusion that Java and
Python are highly complimentary languages. They would never consider
filling the place Java has in their toolbox with Python, but recognize there
are many tasks where it really pays to add Python to the mix.

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
and purposes, your only programming language?

[Harry George]

"Joe Cheng" <co**@joecheng.com> writes:

I'm curious about something... many Artima.com members who have a Java
background and learned Python have come to the conclusion that Java and
Python are highly complimentary languages. They would never consider
filling the place Java has in their toolbox with Python, but recognize there
are many tasks where it really pays to add Python to the mix.

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
and purposes, your only programming language?

In the past I've written C, C++, Java, Lisp, Modula-2, Modula-3,
Pascal, Perl, and Prolog for pay. I've dabbled in a dozen others.
All of these are drifting away as Python takes center stage at home
and at work. I personally haven't written in anything else for over a
year. I also used it through a recent MSCS degree. Of course, I'm
dependent on extensions written in C, C++, and Fortran, plus CORBA,
COM, etc. communication protocols.

What uses?

Some sysadmin scripts, lots of "glueware" reader/writer adaptors and
automation for COTS apps, lots of code which needs to be portable
across *NIX and Win** platforms. Usually need Numeric and XML, some
SQL, CGI wrappers, etc.

At home I recently wrote a morse code tutor by reimplementing
algorithms (e.g., bit-twiddling to generate pcm) from an OSS package.
Once it worked at all, I changed the algorithm to cache preprocessed
sin approximations (profiling showed I needed the speedup). Then I
enhanced to the functionality of commercial packages. Then added
features (autogenerated QSO's) which I don't think are available
anywhere else. All in a weekend.

How did I get there?

I really liked Modula-3's static and dynamic typing system. Other
static typing systems I've tried pale by comparison. With Python and
good test suites, I don't seem to miss the static typing, and it is
vastly easier to generate working code. I also liked Modula-3's
syntax and namespace system. Python's syntax is cleaner and the
namespaces are simpler-yet-adequately-powerful. (Not too surprising,
given Python's origins)

I used to be a champion for and an instructor for Perl. I still do
code reviews on Perl scripts written by others (shudder). I do not
agree sysadmins will stay with Perl over Python. There is a learning
curve, but the needed functionality is there. We are finding in
complex mixed platform environments, it is easier to install (and
upgrade) Python than Perl. Python is readable by people other than
the original author (important in an era of layoffs and doubling up).
Python is readable by the original author even after being away for
months at a time.

We found we could replace c. 100 LOC of Prolog with a few lines of
python when we needed regex's and other string manipulation. We are
finding we can do Lisp-style programming in Python (lazy evaluation,
mixins, etc.). We find that Python is "a better VB than VB" for
scripting COTS apps via COM. We found python took 1/3 fewer LOC (and
was a lot cleaner) than Java for a geometry task (lots of matrixes and
netlist traversals).

I've yet to look seriously at C#. My primariy concern is "does it
support open source cross-platform development and implementation"?
As long as it fails that test (e.g., until Mono is fully approved by
Microsoft), I'll stick with a known winner.

--
ha************@boeing.com
6-6M31 Knowledge Management
Phone: [phone]

[Michele Simionato]

gr****@visi.com (Grant Edwards) wrote in message news:<3f*********************@newsreader.visi.com> ...

Anybody who thinks there's only one programming
language for all tasks is seriously deluded.

Yes, but a programmer does not necessarily need to perform ALL tasks.
It may very well be that Python fullfill 99% of what an average
programmer needs. I personally know various languages, but at the
end I only use Python since it fullfills all my needs and it is
faster to develop in it that in any other language.

Michele

[Grant Edwards]

In article <22**************************@posting.google.com >, Michele Simionato wrote:

Anybody who thinks there's only one programming language for
all tasks is seriously deluded.
Yes, but a programmer does not necessarily need to perform ALL
tasks.

Good point. I forget that others jobs may be more narrowly
defined than mine. Not everybody has to range from embedded
assembly language, to GUI apps, to Linux drivers, to CGI, to
ASP.
It may very well be that Python fullfill 99% of what an average
programmer needs. I personally know various languages, but at
the end I only use Python since it fullfills all my needs and
it is faster to develop in it that in any other language.

--
Grant Edwards grante Yow! What a
at COINCIDENCE! I'm an
visi.com authorized "SNOOTS OF THE
STARS" dealer!!

[Jarek Zgoda]

Joe Cheng <co**@joecheng.com> pisze:

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
and purposes, your only programming language?

I learn new programming language each year. During last 10 years I
learned 10 languages -- only in few of them I wrote more than exercises,
these are Python, RPG and REXX, sorted descending. Python is most
amusing and fun part of my work, I use it whenever it is possible and
has any sign of advantage over any other languages but I will never try
to use Python to write interactive application on OS/400. There is
RPG/400 for this and other platforms have other tasks that are better
accomplished in other ways than Python.

But I'll continue to love Python until somebody invents something more
amazing. Which looks impossible now, but remember, 10 years ago mr Gates
said, that 640KB seems to be enough for everybody. ;)

--
Jarek Zgoda
Registered Linux User #-1
http://www.zgoda.biz/ JID:zg***@chrome.pl http://zgoda.jogger.pl/

[John Machin]

Ben Finney <bi****************@and-benfinney-does-too.id.au> wrote in message news:<sl*******************************@iris.polar .local>...

It also reflects the fact that I intend these tools to be maintainable
by others who don't necessarily know the languages I use inside out. I
would shudder to show a complex shell or perl script to a cow-orker, but
my Python scripts are easily explainable -- one cow-orker has
volunteered the comment that "it looks like pseudocode" :-)

How does one "ork" and what is the effect on the cow? What is the
RSPCA's attitude to this?

[Larry]

"Joe Cheng" <co**@joecheng.com> wrote in message news:<h9******************@newsread1.prod.itd.eart hlink.net>...

I'm curious about something...

At work I'm now at about 90% Python and the rest a mix of Visual Basic
and Java. Almost anything new gets done in Python, with Java for
applets (blah) and the VB mainly just maintenance on existing VB crap.

At home I'm currently about 40% Unreal Tournament 2003 and 60% Civ
III.

[Jarek Zgoda]

Larry <wr**@email.com> pisze:

At home I'm currently about 40% Unreal Tournament 2003 and 60% Civ
III.

I'm 100% Steel Panthers World At War 7.1 and I clearly see, that
pythonic tactics makes me winner in most of cases. ;)

Thanks God, I have wife that allows me run "unknown binaries" on her W2K
box. And she has 80GB HDD, just enough for all our collected music.

--
Jarek Zgoda
Registered Linux User #-1
http://www.zgoda.biz/ JID:zg***@chrome.pl http://zgoda.jogger.pl/

[Rich]

"John Machin" <sj******@lexicon.net> wrote in message
news:c7**************************@posting.google.c om...

How does one "ork" and what is the effect on the cow? What is the
RSPCA's attitude to this?

There is a page on orking here: http://www.monkeon.co.uk/orking/

The RSPCA is fine with it....

see ya,
Rich.
(formerly of JMI in Carlton, way back when Colonial had it. :-)

[Alan Gauld]

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:44:45 GMT, "Joe Cheng" <co**@joecheng.com>
wrote:

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything?
I'm not sure I'm "hard core" but I use Python most days.
However most projects I work on use many programming
languages - I think the record was 12 languages on 1 project.
An average is probably around 5.

I use Python mainly for prototyping and proof of concept work
during design, the results get turned into C++, Java, COBOL
or assembler depending on the project.

In theory we could use Python for an embedded scripting language
but Tcl and VBScript have already grabbed that slot in our
corporate armoury...
finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
and purposes, your only programming language?

Nope, there will always be places where I want to use Lisp or
Prolog. Even awk is better for some things. And when the code
really gets down n' dirty nothing beats raw C and assembler...

Alan G.
Author of the Learn to Program website
http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld

[David Mertz]

|I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
|everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python)

I think the co-author of (parts of) my Gnosis Utilities package, Frank
McIngvale won't mind if I share this recent brief exchange with y'all.
On my OS/2 machine, the case of some files in the distribution were
getting messed up, so I wrote a little script to fix things up before
packaging:

DM> OK... but it's REXX. On the plus side, this will make sure all
DM> the files are right, not just those I remember to check.

FM> You'll have to excuse me for cracking up that the author
FM> of Text Processing in Python just sent me a REXX script!! :-)
FM> Hm, lemme crack open my book and see if I can figure out
FM> how to rewrite it in this newfangled braceless python thang ;-)

FWIW. (still, REXX is quite braceless).

Yours, David...

X-Shameless-Plug: Buy Text Processing in Python: http://tinyurl.com/jskh
--
mertz@ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/ THIS MESSAGE WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY:_/_/_/_/ v i
gnosis _/_/ Postmodern Enterprises _/_/ s r
..cx _/_/ MAKERS OF CHAOS.... _/_/ i u
_/_/_/_/_/ LOOK FOR IT IN A NEIGHBORHOOD NEAR YOU_/_/_/_/_/ g s

[Doug Tolton]

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:48:16 -0400, me***@gnosis.cx (David Mertz)
wrote:

|I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
|everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python)

I think the co-author of (parts of) my Gnosis Utilities package, Frank
McIngvale won't mind if I share this recent brief exchange with y'all.
On my OS/2 machine, the case of some files in the distribution were
getting messed up, so I wrote a little script to fix things up before
packaging:

DM> OK... but it's REXX. On the plus side, this will make sure all
DM> the files are right, not just those I remember to check.

FM> You'll have to excuse me for cracking up that the author
FM> of Text Processing in Python just sent me a REXX script!! :-)
FM> Hm, lemme crack open my book and see if I can figure out
FM> how to rewrite it in this newfangled braceless python thang ;-)

FWIW. (still, REXX is quite braceless).

Yours, David...

X-Shameless-Plug: Buy Text Processing in Python: http://tinyurl.com/jskh

David, I have your book on my Desk now, and I've worked though some of
it. Good stuff so far. Kudos. I posted a reply to you on slashdot
about this book too, but I don't think you saw it.

Doug Tolton

[Tim Rowe]

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:44:45 GMT, "Joe Cheng" <co**@joecheng.com>
wrote:

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python)
No. I'm a firm believer in using the right language for the task, and
I don't believe it to b possible for a single language to be the best
for every application.
Or do
you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it?
C++ close to hand, Eiffel and Ada available.
And
finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
and purposes, your only programming language?

Absolutely not. I don't believe any language could be, because every
task needs different compromises.

[Torsten Marek]

Joe Cheng schrieb:

I'm curious about something... many Artima.com members who have a Java
background and learned Python have come to the conclusion that Java and
Python are highly complimentary languages. They would never consider
filling the place Java has in their toolbox with Python, but recognize there
are many tasks where it really pays to add Python to the mix.

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
and purposes, your only programming language?

Execpt one C++ library I have wrapped for use with Python, I tend to
utilize Python for everything, GUI programming, general scripting,
database and file management etc. Answering your question, I think
Python + C is practical (at least for me) in all matters.
greets

Torsten

[Bob Gailer]

At 12:49 PM 8/12/2003 -0700, John Machin wrote:

How does one "ork"
Quite well, thank you.
and what is the effect on the cow? '
Most of the cows around whom I've orked have given more and richer milk.
What is the RSPCA's attitude to this?

Probably better than the ASCPA's.

Also consider:

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip...Bands/ork.html
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/1835/sr.html
http://www.openravenscar.org/
http://www.rewth.com/amtgard/

Tracing dictionary references ork -> orc -> grampus "Called also cowfish."
Now the circle is complete.

Bob Gailer
bg*****@alum.rpi.edu
303 442 2625
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 8/1/2003

[AdSR]

"Joe Cheng" <co**@joecheng.com> wrote...

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
and purposes, your only programming language?

At home, I use Python almost exclusively. This includes Jython from
time to time.

At work, I use whatever is needed, usually Java or C++. I haven't used
Python "officially", but it was very helpful when I had to rewrite a
couple of database tables into a different format/design. I also use
it to try out concepts.

Interactive mode/IDLE is a good replacement for a calculator too, as
advertised.

And man, does Python make me lazy :) It really makes you appreciate
Guido & Co.'s work when you get back to some other language and have
to do some "basic" thing like list or dictionary manipulation.

Would I want Python to be my only language? Not really - it would be
monotonous. That's why I read at least a tutorial for a new language
from time to time.

Slightly off-topic, I went to a zoo last Saturday and saw there a huge
python that had just had its lunch. A truly terrifying sight.

AdSR

[Donn Cave]

In article <nj********************************@4ax.com>,
Tim Rowe <tim@remove_if_not_spam.digitig.co.uk> wrote:
[ ... re Python as the only language you need ]

Absolutely not. I don't believe any language could be, because every
task needs different compromises.

Sure, within the domain of computer programming problems,
no single language can adequately serve for everything.
But that's a much broader range than most of us encompass,
and I think it's really rather reasonable in principle for
a single language to satisfy a single programmer's needs.
Where "satisfy" is a function of how well the language works
for his or her normal range of problems versus how easily
another possibly better language can be brought on board.
Excuse me for such an obvious observation, but it seems sort
of evasive to turn the question into a matter of principle.

For my purposes, there seem to be three programming language
roles: a low level system interface language (C, for UNIX),
an application language, and a high level system interface
language (shell, for UNIX.) In practice, the application
language is sometimes Python, more commonly C, and in my
dreams it could be Haskell.

Donn Cave, do**@u.washington.edu

[Steve Lamb]

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On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:44:45 GMT, Joe Cheng <co**@joecheng.com> wrote:

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python) Or do
you keep another language equally close at hand, and if so, what is it? And
finally, do you foresee a day when Python can be, for all practical intents
and purposes, your only programming language?

Ever since I learned Python 3-4 years back I have been making an
effort to program more and more in Python. I attempted to get my work
to switch over to no avail. Presently I write 95% in Python, 5% in
shell and that 5% in shell is limited to the command-line. If the tast
is too complex for me to pipe together a few shell utils I fire up vim
and into Python I go.

Recently I've expanded into coding in wxPython thanks to the
wonderful efforts of the Boa-Constructor team. First time I've
seriously delved into GUI work and it is, as with other Python projects,
extremely fun to work on.

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--
Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
| -- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------

[Tim Rowe]

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:13:53 -0700, Donn Cave <do**@u.washington.edu>
wrote:

Sure, within the domain of computer programming problems,
no single language can adequately serve for everything.
But that's a much broader range than most of us encompass,
Most, maybe, but as, loosely, a computer scinece consutant, I probably
get a broader range than most! I have to know at least the basic
characteristics of any language I may encounter, even if I don't have
to code it, and my experience is that the best way to do it is to code
it -- whatever it is -- at least a bit.
and I think it's really rather reasonable in principle for
a single language to satisfy a single programmer's needs.
I'd suggest that that depends on the level of the programmer.
Certainly I'd say get to know one really well. But then I reckon
getting another language under the belt -- the /right/ another
language that complements the first -- offers massive advantages over
the programmer with only one.
For my purposes, there seem to be three programming language
roles: a low level system interface language (C, for UNIX),
an application language, and a high level system interface
language (shell, for UNIX.) In practice, the application
language is sometimes Python, more commonly C, and in my
dreams it could be Haskell.

If I want to get something up and running quickly then I go straight
to Python. If thousands of lives depend on the code working right I
would not be allowed to use Python, and, IMHO, quite rightly too. It
just doesn't have what it needs for proving correctness, and adding
those things would scupper the getting things up and running quickly.

[smarter_than_you]

Been programming for 20 years, in (roughly this order):

BASIC
Assembly (various, starting with 6502)
Forth
C
(a little) Lisp
C++
Java
and lately, Python

I can say without a doubt, Py is so much closer to how my brain works,
and I am _so_ much more productive (factor of 2.5 - 3 over C/C++),
that I will be using it by default for everything that it can do, and
will need to be torn away from it kicking and screaming when
absolutely necessary (high-performance stuff mostly).

Recently at a job interview my possible boss said he liked C#, and
didn't know much about Python. That comment alone made me much less
interested in the job.

[Nick Vargish]

Tim Rowe <tim@remove_if_not_spam.digitig.co.uk> writes:

If I want to get something up and running quickly then I go straight
to Python. If thousands of lives depend on the code working right I
would not be allowed to use Python, and, IMHO, quite rightly too. It
just doesn't have what it needs for proving correctness, and adding
those things would scupper the getting things up and running
quickly.

So what programming language actually does bridge the gap between
"thousands of lives depend on the code working right" and "getting
this up and running quickly"?

Whenever someone implies that compile-time type checking provides some
"proof of correctness", I think about (void *) and am not very
convinced.

Nick

--
# sigmask || 0.2 || 20030107 || public domain || feed this to a python
print reduce(lambda x,y:x+chr(ord(y)-1),' Ojdl!Wbshjti!=obwAcboefstobudi/psh?')

[Van Gale]

Nick Vargish wrote:

So what programming language actually does bridge the gap between
"thousands of lives depend on the code working right" and "getting
this up and running quickly"?

I would hope that there would be pressure for "up and quickly" when
thousands of lives are at stake :) So, the only choice in that case is
doing it properly.

I think that Ada is one of the few languages capable of being used on
"lives depend on it" systems. It's not anything special about the
language in particular, but rather the immense amount of man-hours and
time spent in writing checking and analysis tools. That includes tools
that can verify an Ada program will meet real-time requirements. This
kind of tool is really sophisticated (obviously) and would probably be
impossible to code for anything but a strong static typed language.

[Jim Richardson]

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On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:51:50 GMT,
Michael Hudson <mw*@python.net> wrote:

mi**@pitt.edu (Michele Simionato) writes:

gr****@visi.com (Grant Edwards) wrote in message news:<3f*********************@newsreader.visi.com> ...

> Anybody who thinks there's only one programming
> language for all tasks is seriously deluded.

Yes, but a programmer does not necessarily need to perform ALL
tasks. It may very well be that Python fullfill 99% of what an
average programmer needs.

I quite like the strategy of recommending Python for almost
everything, and Common Lisp for what's left.

Hmm, guess this doesn't cover the embedded niche...

Forth. :)
Assembly if you must, python if you can. Seems to be my watchword these
days.

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--
Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock

Linux, because eventually, you grow up enough to be trusted with a fork()

[Tim Ottinger]

> On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:44:45 GMT, "Joe Cheng" <co**@joecheng.com>

wrote:

I want to ask you hard-core c.l.p Pythonistas: Do you use Python for
everything? (and I'm counting Python + C extensions as just Python)

Oh, how I wish.

Although I do like my spattering of SQL too.
And I don't hate C and C++ (which account for most of my 24yrs of
programming). At least not as much as I hate Java.

I probably could use python for just about everything I do these days.

A different Tim