Microsoft Hatred FAQ

[Xah Lee]

Microsoft Hatred, FAQ

Xah Lee, 20020518

Question: U.S. Judges are not morons, and quite a few others are
not morons. They find MS guilty, so it must be true.

Answer: so did the German population thought Jews are morons by
heritage, to the point that Jews should be exterminated from earth.
Apparently, the entire German population cannot be morons, they must be
right.

Judge for yourself, is a principle i abide by. And when you judge, it
is better to put some effort into it.

How much you invest in this endearvor depends on how important the
issue is to you. If you are like most people, for which the issue of
Microsoft have remote effect on your personal well-being, then you can
go out and buy a case of beer on one hand and pizza on the other, and
rap with your online confabulation buddies about how evil is MS. If you
are an author writing a book on this, then obviously its different
because your reputation and ultimately daily bread depend on what you
put down. If you are a MS competitor such as Apple or Sun, then
obviously you will see to it with as much money as you can cough out
that MS is guilty by all measures and gets put out of business. If you
are a government employee such as a judge, of course it is your
interest to please your boss, with your best accessment of the air.

When i judge things, i like to imagine things being serious, as if my
wife is a wager, my daughter is at stake, that any small factual error
or mis-judgement or misleading perspective will cause unimaginable
things to happen. Then, my opinions becomes better ones.

Q: Microsoft's Operating System is used over 90% of PCs. If that's
not monopoly, i don't know what is.

A: Now suppose there is a very ethical company E, whose products have
the best performance/price ratio, and making all the competitors
looking so majorly stupid and ultimately won over 90% of the market as
decided by consumers. Is E now a monopoly? Apparently, beer drinkers
and pizza eaters needs to study a bit on the word monopoly, from the
perspectives of language to history to law. If they have some extra
time, they can sharpen views from philosophy & logic contexts as well.

Q: What about all the people in the corporate environments who are
forced to use MS products and aren't allowed the option/choice to use
Mac/Linux/UNIX?

A: Kick your boss's ass, or, choose to work for a company who have
decisions that you liked.

Q: What about MS buying out all competitors?

A: Microsoft offered me $1 grand for saying good things about them.
They didn't put a gunpoint on my head. I CHOOSE to take the bribe.
Likewise, sold companies can and have decided what's best for them.
It's nothing like under gunpoint.

Q: Microsoft forced computer makers to not install competitor's
applications or OSes.

A: It is free country. Don't like MS this or that? Fuck MS and talk to
the Solaris or BeOS or AIX or HP-UX or Apple or OS/2 or Amiga or NeXT
or the Linuxes with their free yet fantastically easy-to-use and
network-spamming X-Windows. Bad business prospects? Then grab the
opportunity and become an entrepreneur and market your own beats-all
OS. Too difficult? Let's sue Microsoft!

Q: Microsoft distributed their Internet Explorer web browser free,
using their “monopoly� power to put Netscape out of business.

A: entirely inane coding monkeys listen: It takes huge investment to
give away a quality software free. Netscape can give away Operating
Systems free to put MS out of business too. Nobody is stopping Sun
Microsystem from giving Java free, or BeOS a browser free, or Apple to
bundle QuickTime deeply with their OS free.

Not to mention that Netscape is worse than IE in just about every
version till they become the OpenSource mozilla shit and eventually
bought out by AOL and still shit.

• Netscape struggles, announced open browser source code in 1998-01,
industry shock
http://wp.netscape.com/newsref/pr/newsrelease558.html

• Netscape browser code released in 1998-03. Mozilla FAQ.
http://mozilla.org/docs/mozilla-faq.html

• AOL buys Netscape in 1998-11 for 4.2 billion.
http://news.com.com/2100-1023-218360.html?legacy=cnet

• Jamie Zawinski, resignation and postmortem, 1999-04
http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/nomo.html

• suck.com, Greg Knauss & Terry Colon, 2000-04, Netscape 6 mockery
http://www.suck.com/daily/2000/04/10/
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/_...s_netscape.zip

• Xah Lee, Netscape Crap
http://xahlee.org/Writ_dir/macos-talk/58.txt

Q: Microsoft implemented extra things to standard protocols in
their OS so that other OS makers cannot be compatible with their OS
while their OS can be compatible with all. They used this Embrace &
Extend to lock out competitors.

A: My perspective is this: suppose you are now a company who's OS sits
over 90% of computers (regardless how this come to be for the moment).
Now, lots of “standard� protocols in the industry is a result of
popularity (RFC = Really Fucking Common), and popularity resulted from
being free, from the RFCs of the fantastically incompetent by the
truely stupid unix tech morons. What can you do if you want to improve
these protocols? If you go with totally different protocols, then the
incompatibility with the rest 10% isn't your best interest. I would
adopt existing protocols, and extend them with improvements. Being a
commercial entity, i'm sorry that it is not my duty to release my
improvments to my competitors. Any of you incompetent IBM/AIX/OS/2 or
SGI/Irix or HP/HP-UX or Sun/Solaris or Apple/AU-X/Mac can do the same,
not that they haven't.

Of course, the universe of moronic unixers and Apple fanatics cannot
see that. The unix idiots cannot see that their fantastically stupid
protocols are fantastically stupid in the first place. The Apple
fanatics are simply chronically fanatic.

Q: Microsoft product is notorious for their lack of security.

A: In my very sound opinion, if Microsoft's OS's security flaws is
measured at one, then the unixes are measured at one myriad. If unixes
suddenly switch popularity with Windows, then the world's computers
will collapse uncontrollably by all sorts of viruses and attacks. This
can be seen for technical person who knows unix history well:

• http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/freebooks.html (e.g.
ftpd/proftpd, inetd/xinetd, sendmail/qmail, X-Windows, telnet, passwd,
login, rsh, rlogin.)

• on the criminality of buffer overflow, by Henry Baker, 2001.
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/_..._overflow.html

• Fast Food The UNIX Way:
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/_.../fastfood.html

• Jargon File: http://www.tuxedo.org/%7Eesr/jargon/

• The Rise of Worse is Better, by Richard P. Gabriel, 1991, at
http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.html

and plenty other pre-90s documents to get a sense of just how
fantastically insecure unix was and is. Unix today is not just
technically slacking in the “security� department, but the unix
ways created far more unmanageable security risks that's another topic
to discuss.

The unix crime, is not just being utmost technically sloppy. Its entire
system and “philosophy� created an entire generation of incompetent
programers and thinking and programing languages, with damage that is a
few magnitude times beyond all computer viruses and attacks damages in
history combined. See also:

• Responsible Software License:
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/w...e_license.html

Q: Microsoft products are simply poor quality.

A: Perhaps this in general is true pre-1997. I think the vast majority
of MS products today have better performance/price ratio then
competitors. This includes their operating system, their input devices
(mouse & keyboard), their X-Box gaming console, their software game
titles, their software architectures and languages (.NET, C#), their
technologies (few i know: SMB), and many of their software applications
(suite of Office, which consistently ranked top since early 90s).

e.g. Tom's hardware review on x-box, esp in comparison with Sony
Playstation 2. (2002-02):
http://www4.tomshardware.com/consume...204/index.html

the leading role of MS Office products can be seen in MacUser &
MacWorld magazine reviews through out early 90s.

Q: BeOS was once to be bundled with PC, but MS meddled with it and
basically at the end fucked Be up.

A: BeOS is a fantastically fucking useless OS. No DVD player, No Java,
No QuickTime, No games, no Mathematica, no nothing. For all practical
purposes, fucking useless in a different way than every donkey unixes.
Not to mention the evil Apple computer, refused to pass the QuickTime
technology, and tried to prevent BeOS from running on Apple hardware by
refusing to release their PPC hardware spec. Be founder Jean-Louis
Gassee wrote an article about it. Who's fucking whom?

Q: X inc tried to do W, but MS threatened to depart.

A: Dear X inc., try to find a bigger dick for your needs. If you cannot
find any, too bad! Suck it up to the big brother and hold on to what
you can get! If you have the smarts, milk him dry! Free country, free
to choose partnership. Ladies, previous night's indiscretion is not
rape the morning after.

Q: I'm not a beer bucket or pizza hole, but i want to do research
over the web. Is there any free stuff on the web i can grab? I'm an
OpenSource advocate, i demand free things.

A: •
http://www.moraldefense.com/Campaign...AQ/default.htm
(The Center for the Moral Defense of Capitalism)

• http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_repo.../friedman.html (The
Business Community's Suicidal Impulse by Milton Friedman, 1999-03)
local copy

Q: I'm thinking of putting my wife and daughter on the table. What
do you suggest to begin with?

A: Basic Economics by Thomas Sowell:
http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_di...economics.html

Q: Are you confident enough to bet your wifes and daughters for
what you say?

A: No. But I put my reputation in.
-------
This post is archived at:
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/w...hatredfaq.html

Xah
xa*@xahlee.org
∑ http://xahlee.org/

[Roedy Green]

On 14 Oct 2005 19:01:42 -0700, "Xah Lee" <xa*@xahlee.org> wrote or
quoted :

Q: Microsoft's Operating System is used over 90% of PCs. If that's
not monopoly, i don't know what is.

They got where they are by CHEATING. That is why they are evil, not
because they have a large market share.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Again taking new Java programming contracts.

[kasimir.g]

Hm... What does this have to do with Perl?

Why did you post this in comp.lang.perl.misc?

[Keith Thompson]

"ka*******@gmail.com" <ka*******@gmail.com> writes:

Hm... What does this have to do with Perl?

Why did you post this in comp.lang.perl.misc?

He posted this in comp.lang.python, comp.lang.perl.misc,
comp.unix.programmer, comp.lang.java.programmer, *and*
comp.os.linux.misc because he's a troll.

I wish I could say that he'll go away if we ignore him. I can say,
however, that ignoring him will minimize his impact. In the past, his
rants have led to long rambling arguments across multiple newsgroups,
none of them relevant to any point that might be made -- which is
probably exactly what he wants.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) ks***@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://users.sdsc.edu/~kst>
We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.

[Tim Hammerquist]

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.lang.perl.misc.]

Roedy Green <my******************************@munged.invalid > wrote:

"Xah Lee" <xa*@xahlee.org> wrote or quoted :

Q: Microsoft's Operating System is used over 90% of PCs.
If that's not monopoly, i don't know what is.

They got where they are by CHEATING. That is why they are
evil, not because they have a large market share.

Mr. Lee is a troll. And an increasingly obscene one.

I think his mother didn't pay him enough attention.
Perhaps she locked him in the basement... and he never left?

IAC, I've had enough. I don't killfile many people... but Mr.
Lee seems to have gone above and beyond. His arguments are
nothing but incendiary, and he doesn't even know Perl well
enough to bash it as he does.

*plonk*

Tim

[Jeroen Wenting]

Q: Microsoft's Operating System is used over 90% of PCs. If that's
not monopoly, i don't know what is.

They got where they are by CHEATING. That is why they are evil, not
because they have a large market share.

no, they got their by clever marketing and generally having a product that
was easier to use for the average user than anything the competition made
and a lot more powerful than other products created for their main target
market.

Microsoft isn't evil, they're not a monopoly either.
If they were a monopoly they'd have 100% of the market and there'd be no
other software manufacturers at all.
Prices would be far far higher than they are today, like they were back in
the days before Microsoft started competing with the likes of Ashton Tate
and WordPerfect corporation by offering similar products at 20% the price
(which is the real reason they got to be top dog, they delivered a working
product for a fraction of the price their competition did, and the
competition couldn't drop their prices that much and remain profitable).

Without Microsoft 90% of us would never have seen a computer more powerful
than a ZX-81 and 90% of the rest of us would never have used only dumb
mainframe terminals.
IBM's prediction that there would be 5 computers (not counting game
computers like the Comodores and Spectrums) by 2000 would likely have come
true.

[Jim Moe]

Xah Lee wrote:

Question: U.S. Judges are not morons, and quite a few others are
not morons. They find MS guilty, so it must be true.

Answer: so did the German population thought Jews are morons by
heritage, to the point that Jews should be exterminated from earth.
Apparently, the entire German population cannot be morons, they must be
right.

Extremely lame.

--
jmm (hyphen) list (at) sohnen-moe (dot) com
(Remove .AXSPAMGN for email)

[Peter T. Breuer]

In comp.os.linux.misc Jeroen Wenting <jwenting at hornet dot demon dot nl> wrote:

Without Microsoft 90% of us would never have seen a computer more powerful
than a ZX-81 and 90% of the rest of us would never have used only dumb
mainframe terminals.

Uh - when microsoft produced dos 1.0, or whatever it was, I was sitting
at my Sun 360 workstation (with 4M of RAM, later upgraded to 8M),
running SunOS 3.8 or thereabouts.

And a mean game of tetris it played too. Chess wasn't worth the
humiliation at level 5.

I believe every researcher in britain got one as a matter of course, but
they only replaced the perq machines that everyone had had to put up
with before then. The vaxen running hpux or so were plentiful too, and
had fine monitors, tending more to the PC shape. We'd made our own word
processor machines and spreadsheet automatons before that. It didn't
take that many components, just a good engineer and a room full of
lackeys with soddering irons. The BBC were selling kits too (what were
they? Ataris?), not that I ever fell for that.

Maybe five years earlier I'd designed and built my own computer from
scratch using the MC 6802 chip as processor. Somebody really should
have told me about assembler - I wrote in machine code, flashing the
code into prom with a 100ms pulse from a 16V battery. Goodness knows
how much memory I had ... maybe a few KB.

I think the Suns were abut $30000 each when they first appeared, but
prices dropped rapidly so that after maybe three years the standard
price was about $8000. PCs had appeared and came in at about $4000, if I
recall right, so there was a price differential but it wasn't huge,
especially when a Sun could support a whole research team via vt100
lines, and a PC was a one-person job, thanks to the o/s.
Peter

[Mike Meyer]

"Jeroen Wenting" <jwenting at hornet dot demon dot nl> writes:

Q: Microsoft's Operating System is used over 90% of PCs. If that's
not monopoly, i don't know what is. They got where they are by CHEATING. That is why they are evil, not
because they have a large market share.

no, they got their by clever marketing and generally having a product that
was easier to use for the average user than anything the competition made
and a lot more powerful than other products created for their main target
market.

What you call "clever marketing" the DOJ calls "monopolistic
practices". The courts agreed with the DOJ. Having had several large
PC manufacturers refuse to sell me a system without some form of
Windows because MS made it impossible for them to compete if they
didn't agree to do so, I agree with the courts and the DOJ.

MS didn't start chanting the "Ease of Use" Mantra into it after Apple
did - which happened long after MS had a sufficient stranglehold on
the industry to force anti-competitive contracts down the throats of
their "partners". Ease of use is something that Apple is much better
at than MS, which is why Apple is dominating the market, right?
Prices would be far far higher than they are today
I disagree. Before Gates decided to sell BASIC, software was very
cheap. It started getting cheap again in the late 80s. Now that cheap
software is threatening MS, they're doing their best to shut down all
the sources of quality cheap software, with there usual disregard for
truth, legality, ethics or the good of either the customer or their
business partners.
Without Microsoft 90% of us would never have seen a computer more powerful
than a ZX-81 and 90% of the rest of us would never have used only dumb
mainframe terminals.
Oh, horseshit. You clearly weren't paying attention to what the rest
of the microcomputer industry was doing while Gates was selling IBM
non-existent software. While IBM was introducing 16-bit processors and
DOS was doing a flat file system, Tandy was selliig systems - for a
fraction of the price of any MS-DOS based system - that were
multitasking, multiuser, had an optional windowing system that came
with a complete (for the time) office suite. Of course, that was while
Tandy still thought they could sell computers by selling better
computers than you could get running MS software. But it was already
to late for that. MS single-handedly set the industry back 20 years.
IBM's prediction that there would be 5 computers (not counting game
computers like the Comodores and Spectrums) by 2000 would likely have come
true.

I see. You're a troll.

<mike
--
Mike Meyer <mw*@mired.org> http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.

[George Sakkis]

Keith Thompson wrote:

"ka*******@gmail.com" <ka*******@gmail.com> writes:

Hm... What does this have to do with Perl?

Why did you post this in comp.lang.perl.misc?

He posted this in comp.lang.python, comp.lang.perl.misc,
comp.unix.programmer, comp.lang.java.programmer, *and*
comp.os.linux.misc because he's a troll.

I wish I could say that he'll go away if we ignore him. I can say,
however, that ignoring him will minimize his impact. In the past, his
rants have led to long rambling arguments across multiple newsgroups,
none of them relevant to any point that might be made -- which is
probably exactly what he wants.

Exactly, Mr. Lee is a self-proclaimed troll
(http://xahlee.org/Netiquette_dir/troll.html). Actually he seems to be
more than a plain troll; the style of many of his posts is indicative
of one or more mental disorders, so he'll probably continue trolling
even if he's ignored. Nevertheless, I agree that ignoring him will
minimize his impact.

[John Bokma]

"Jeroen Wenting" <jwenting at hornet dot demon dot nl> wrote:

no, they got their by clever marketing and generally having a product
that was easier to use for the average user than anything the
competition made and a lot more powerful than other products created
for their main target market.
I agree with the first part of your sentence, the rest is BS of course.
Without Microsoft 90% of us would never have seen a computer more
powerful than a ZX-81 and 90% of the rest of us would never have used
only dumb mainframe terminals.
More BS of course.
IBM's prediction that there would be 5 computers (not counting game
computers like the Comodores and Spectrums) by 2000 would likely have
come true.

Yeah, sure, and we all would be living in caves.

--
John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
I ploink googlegroups.com :-)

[Michael Heiming]

In comp.os.linux.misc Peter T. Breuer <pt*@oboe.it.uc3m.es>:

In comp.os.linux.misc Jeroen Wenting <jwenting at hornet dot demon dot nl> wrote:

Without Microsoft 90% of us would never have seen a computer more powerful
than a ZX-81 and 90% of the rest of us would never have used only dumb
mainframe terminals.

Uh - when microsoft produced dos 1.0, or whatever it was, I was sitting
at my Sun 360 workstation (with 4M of RAM, later upgraded to 8M),
running SunOS 3.8 or thereabouts. And a mean game of tetris it played too. Chess wasn't worth the
humiliation at level 5. I believe every researcher in britain got one as a matter of course, but
they only replaced the perq machines that everyone had had to put up
with before then. The vaxen running hpux or so were plentiful too, and
had fine monitors, tending more to the PC shape. We'd made our own word
processor machines and spreadsheet automatons before that. It didn't
take that many components, just a good engineer and a room full of
lackeys with soddering irons. The BBC were selling kits too (what were
they? Ataris?), not that I ever fell for that.
Yep, Atari 400/800, Atari ST/etc, Commodore VC20/C64, there were
quite some systems much more stable/powerful then anything M$ had
to offer.
Maybe five years earlier I'd designed and built my own computer from
scratch using the MC 6802 chip as processor. Somebody really should
have told me about assembler - I wrote in machine code, flashing the
code into prom with a 100ms pulse from a 16V battery. Goodness knows
how much memory I had ... maybe a few KB. I think the Suns were abut $30000 each when they first appeared, but
prices dropped rapidly so that after maybe three years the standard
price was about $8000. PCs had appeared and came in at about $4000, if I
recall right, so there was a price differential but it wasn't huge,
especially when a Sun could support a whole research team via vt100
lines, and a PC was a one-person job, thanks to the o/s.

The only thing positive about M$ entering the market, probably
due to their ineffective programming style they pushed Intel into
producing pretty fast while cheapo CPUs. Ironically exactly this
is the key to Linux/*BSD success in the unix server market. ;)

--
Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
mail: echo zv*****@urvzvat.qr | perl -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
#bofh excuse 387: Your computer's union contract is set to
expire at midnight.

[Roy Schestowitz]

__/ [Xah Lee] yelled on Saturday 15 October 2005 03:01 \__

Microsoft Hatred, FAQ

[The world is actually round]

Hmmm... 3 year-old 1-pager... PageRank 5.

I sure hope it's not a troll, as some other responders suggested, because I
cited that site in my blog several hours ago.

Remove? leave out link? It's rel="nofollow"ed for the time being.

Roy

--
Roy S. Schestowitz | Linux + tax = Mac OS = (Windows - functionality)
http://Schestowitz.com | SuSE Linux | PGP-Key: 74572E8E
8:10am up 50 days 20:24, 5 users, load average: 0.15, 0.26, 0.30

[Martin P. Hellwig]

Jeroen Wenting wrote:
<cut>

Without Microsoft 90% of us would never have seen a computer more powerful
than a ZX-81 and 90% of the rest of us would never have used only dumb
mainframe terminals.

<cut>
At the time you "PC" guys where hacking around monochrome green and a
bit lighter green screens I was doing multi-media editing on my Amiga 600.
So perhaps we should state that we would have been a lot further if not
an incredible amount of cool technologies where bought by MS and then
simply put in the freezer to protect their future market share.
Although Commodore where never serious competitors, they had some
"intern" difficulties, too bad but life goes on.
To go on, stable version of truly free unix likes where released around
1994 that was in the same time MS was working on their super stable
released windows 95 and a slightly better NT 3.5 and let me not forget
OS/2 warp 3.0 .

I'm not a MS basher, hey I make money of them administrating them,
however to state that if we didn't had MS we would been in the IT stone
ages is blatantly wrong, I think we would have been a lot further then
where we are now. Perhaps we even had a other mainstream architecture
like sparcs and powerpc's.

--
mph

[Steven D'Aprano]

I was going to sit this one out, as being obvious flame-bait, but Jeroen's
post appears to be reasonable, and yet so utterly wrong that it needs to
be responded to.

On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 07:52:57 +0200, Jeroen Wenting wrote:

Q: Microsoft's Operating System is used over 90% of PCs. If that's
not monopoly, i don't know what is.
They got where they are by CHEATING. That is why they are evil, not
because they have a large market share.

no, they got their by clever marketing and generally having a product that
was easier to use for the average user than anything the competition made
and a lot more powerful than other products created for their main target
market.

That's what Microsoft would like us to be believe, but it isn't what the
historical record shows.

The historical facts show that Microsoft had one piece of good fortune,
which they leveraged into the massive corporate empire they have today:
the US Justice Department investigated IBM for abuse of monopoly position.

That investigation lead to IBM playing it safe when they decided to move
into the personal computer market with the IBM Junior. Instead of making
their own operating system, they went out and licenced one from Microsoft.
And because they were desperate to licence something *quickly*, they
foolishly signed an agreement with Microsoft whereby Microsoft got paid
for every PC that they shipped *regardless of whether it had PC-DOS or not*.

IBM did the work to make PC-DOS a de facto standard, which allowed
Microsoft to foist that same sort of agreement on PC clone manufacturers.
This was anti-competitive in the extreme. Who in the highly competitive,
low-margin PC business would commit economic suicide by paying Microsoft
for DOS, and pay another operating system manufacturer as well, unless the
customer asked for the other operating system? The result was, everybody
shipped with MS-DOS, and competition got a bullet in the head.

This was illegal, and in the early 1990s the US Justice Department slapped
Microsoft with a consent decree where Microsoft agreed to stop breaking
the law and the DoJ agreed not to prosecute.

(To see how much they have stopped, you just try buying a laptop or
a Tier One PC with no operating system or something other than Windows.
The Tier One vendors won't do it, or if they do, you pay just as much for
the operating system free PC as the one with Windows. Hands up anyone who
thinks that Dell gets Windows for free?)

Even with the luck of IBM's foolish mistake, Microsoft couldn't quite
knock out their last operating system competitor, DR-DOS. And that's where
they got really dirty. Months before Windows 3.1 was released, they
started sending out test versions of Windows to journalists to review. In
those days, Windows ran as an application on top of DOS. Journalists
discovered that Windows generated an error on DR-DOS. In their reviews,
they of course reported that Windows wouldn't run on DR-DOS. This
effectively killed DR-DOS -- consumers wanted an operating system that
would run Windows.

When Windows was released, a few IT professionals noticed that it would
run under DR-DOS. Of course it was too late now: the DR-DOS market was
effectively gone, except for a few diehards. One of these people was
Andrew Schulman, who wondered why there was a great big piece of encrypted
code inside the review version of Windows 3.1, with a flag that shut the
test off in the release version.

Schulman wrote:

"Whether in spite or because of the books Undocumented DOS and
Undocumented Windows, I've often had to publicly defend Microsoft against
what I felt were acts of scapegoating from whining competitors ..."

No enemy of Microsoft is he.

Schulman discovered that this code had no purpose except to detect DR-DOS,
and then put up a misleading and pointless warning message.

For details, see: http://www.ddj.com/documents/s=1030/ddj9309d/9309d.htm

See also:

http://www.maxframe.com/DR/Info/fullstory/factrel.html
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com...d_legal_issues
http://www.base.com/software-patents/articles/stac.html

Microsoft has *repeatedly* been found guilty of engaging in illegal
practices, including outright theft of code, perjury ("oh no judge, this
is not a doctored video"), breaking non-disclosure agreements, misleading
conduct, patent and copyright infringement, and breach of contract. In
addition, they have engaged in unscrupulous and unethical behaviour,
including "astro-turf" media campaigns where they have written letters on
behalf of non-existent and dead people to pretend that they had more
community support than they really have.

Perhaps my favourite example of Microsoft's behaviour is what they did to
the inventors of Internet Explorer. IE was originally called Mosaic, one
of the first graphical web browsers in existence. Mosaic was licenced from
Spyglass, on the basis of a percentage of sales. Microsoft then promptly
bundled the re-named Mosaic/IE with Windows, making IE sales equal to (can
you do the maths?) zero.

Let's see now... some percentage of zero is... zero.

Microsoft isn't evil, they're not a monopoly either.
If they were a monopoly they'd have 100% of the market and there'd be no
other software manufacturers at all.
So according to Jeroen, if every computer in the world ran Windows,
except for one thrity-year-old Amstrad in somebody's basement, Microsoft
wouldn't have a monopoly. Yeah, right.

In law and in economics, a monopoly does not mean that there are
absolutely no competitors to a supplier. That is an overly literal
definition, and is about as sensible as arguing that a fly swatter isn't a
fly swatter because you can also use it to squish spiders.

At the time the US Justice Department tackled Microsoft (for the *second*
time, I should point out) Microsoft had approximately 98% of all desktop
PC operating systems in the USA, and approximately the same around the
world. 98% is close enough to 100% to be a monopoly. Economically, 80% is
probably enough market share to be effectively a monopoly (although that
depends on precisely what market we're talking about).

Today, Microsoft's share of the desktop has fallen to perhaps 93% or
90%, still giving them effective monopoly power.

Prices would be far far higher than they are today, like they were back in
the days before Microsoft started competing with the likes of Ashton Tate
and WordPerfect corporation by offering similar products at 20% the price
(which is the real reason they got to be top dog, they delivered a working
product for a fraction of the price their competition did, and the
competition couldn't drop their prices that much and remain profitable).
In Jeroen's dreams. Perhaps some reality check is needed here. In 1989, I
purchased MS Word for approximately $100, and Word Perfect for about $90.
(Prices are in Australian dollars, not adjusted for inflation.) Word
Perfect was discounted somewhat because it was a "cross-grade" from Word.
If I recall correctly, the normal price was about $120. Excel was also
about $100.

By contrast, I paid $4000 for my PC and a dot matrix printer.

Today, I can buy a PC for $500, a monitor for an extra $100, and a laser
printer for another $200 dollars: $800 all up. The recommended retail
price of MS Office is $1000. My PC has plummeted in price, falling by 80%,
while MS Office has gone up in price by 150%.

But who pays recommended retail price on Office? A more realistic price is
the OEM price, which is about $300 here. So while my PC has become
thousands of times more powerful, it has fallen in price by 80%, while
Word and Excel have had only incremental improvements, but have increased
in price by 50%.

That is a textbook example of monopoly power in action.

Without Microsoft 90% of us would never have seen a computer more
powerful than a ZX-81 and 90% of the rest of us would never have used
only dumb mainframe terminals.
IBM's prediction that there would be 5 computers (not counting game
computers like the Comodores and Spectrums) by 2000 would likely have
come true.

Except for, oh I don't know, Apple, Apricot, Amstrad, Wang, Xerox, and all
the other thousands of computer companies that existed before Microsoft
destroyed competition in the software arena.

IBM's prediction, for the record, was well before Steve Jobs and Steve
Wozniak had invented the personal computer with the Apple. IBM's
prediction at a time when everybody thought that computers would cost
billions of dollars and be as large as a house. Trying to credit Microsoft
for the invention of the PC is foolish to the extreme. Microsoft didn't
even exist when the Apple II was bringing computers to ordinary people.

--
Steven.

[Drazen Gemic]

I find this article very much off topic.
Send that to some advocacy group, please.

DG

[Rhino]

"Jeroen Wenting" <jwenting at hornet dot demon dot nl> wrote in message
news:11*************@corp.supernews.com...

Q: Microsoft's Operating System is used over 90% of PCs. If that's
not monopoly, i don't know what is.
They got where they are by CHEATING. That is why they are evil, not
because they have a large market share.

no, they got their by clever marketing and generally having a product that
was easier to use for the average user than anything the competition made
and a lot more powerful than other products created for their main target
market.

Microsoft isn't evil, they're not a monopoly either.
If they were a monopoly they'd have 100% of the market and there'd be no
other software manufacturers at all.
Prices would be far far higher than they are today, like they were back in
the days before Microsoft started competing with the likes of Ashton Tate
and WordPerfect corporation by offering similar products at 20% the price
(which is the real reason they got to be top dog, they delivered a working
product for a fraction of the price their competition did, and the
competition couldn't drop their prices that much and remain profitable).

Without Microsoft 90% of us would never have seen a computer more powerful
than a ZX-81 and 90% of the rest of us would never have used only dumb
mainframe terminals.

IBM's prediction that there would be 5 computers (not counting game
computers like the Comodores and Spectrums) by 2000 would likely have come
true.

I'd be VERY surprised if IBM predicted that there would be only 5 COMPUTERS
in *2000* - perhaps you mean 5 *manufacturers* of computers? - unless the
prediction was made a VERY long time ago. I think you are giving a
badly-mangled version of something I saw when I worked at IBM.

About 10 years ago, when I was working at IBM, there was an employee
newsletter circulated commemorating the death of Thomas J. Watson Jr., a
former CEO of IBM. They cited an old interview with him in which he had
predicted that the world wide market for computers would be 3 in the next
year; in other words, he expected IBM to sell three of their computers in
that year. However, he was not making this prediction in or for the year
2000; the interview had taken place just after World War II - 1946 perhaps -
and was for the next year. I wasn't born then but, from what I recall about
computer history, selling 3 Eniacs (or whatever model they were making that
year) isn't too far out of line with what actually happened.

Of course, we are talking about a time when computers were absolutely
immense, ran on vacuum tubes (the transistor hadn't been invented yet) and
filled very large rooms - and yet probably had less computing power than the
average microwave oven you can buy today. Only very large companies or
national governments would want or need a computer in those days. Everyone
else was still using typewriters - which was IBM's bread and butter in those
days - for their business needs.

Rhino

[John Wingate]

Peter T. Breuer <pt*@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:

In comp.os.linux.misc Jeroen Wenting <jwenting at hornet dot demon dot nl> wrote:

Without Microsoft 90% of us would never have seen a computer more powerful
than a ZX-81 and 90% of the rest of us would never have used only dumb
mainframe terminals.

Uh - when microsoft produced dos 1.0, or whatever it was, I was sitting
at my Sun 360 workstation (with 4M of RAM, later upgraded to 8M),
running SunOS 3.8 or thereabouts.

Peter, if you are serious, and not just pulling our legs, your memory is
failing. MS-DOS 1.0 came out in August 1981; SunOS 3.0 in February 1986.
Sun Microsystems was incorporated (with four employees) in February 1982.
There never was a SunOS 3.8. (SunOS 3.5 was succeeded by 4.0.) And I'm
not sure what you mean by "Sun 360"--a Sun 3/60, maybe?

--
John Wingate Mathematics is the art which teaches
jo****@worldpath.net one how not to make calculations.
--Oscar Chisini

[Real Gagnon]

> I'd be VERY surprised if IBM predicted that there would be only 5

COMPUTERS in *2000* - perhaps you mean 5 *manufacturers* of computers?
- unless the prediction was made a VERY long time ago. I think you are
giving a badly-mangled version of something I saw when I worked at
IBM.

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." ~ IBM Chairman
Thomas Watson, 1943.

ref : http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Computers

Bye.
--
Real Gagnon from Quebec, Canada
* Looking for Java or PB code examples ? Visit Real's How-to
* http://www.rgagnon.com/howto.html

[Rhino]

"Real Gagnon" <realgagnon_@_yahooSpamIsBadSstripunderscore.com > wrote in
message news:Xn**********************************@140.99.9 9.130...

I'd be VERY surprised if IBM predicted that there would be only 5
COMPUTERS in *2000* - perhaps you mean 5 *manufacturers* of computers?
- unless the prediction was made a VERY long time ago. I think you are
giving a badly-mangled version of something I saw when I worked at
IBM.

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." ~ IBM Chairman
Thomas Watson, 1943.

ref : http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Computers

Bye.

I stand corrected; I understated the world market by 2 units and was 4 years
late in my guesstimate for the timing of the quote :-) Oh well, not bad for
something I read 10 years ago....

Rhino

[John Bokma]

Michael Heiming <mi************@www.heiming.de> wrote:

The only thing positive about M$ entering the market, probably
due to their ineffective programming style they pushed Intel into
producing pretty fast while cheapo CPUs.
Amazing, I thought Xah Lee was the only one able to fit so much BS in one
sentence.
Ironically exactly this
is the key to Linux/*BSD success in the unix server market. ;)

Yeah, right.

--
John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
I ploink googlegroups.com :-)

[Peter T. Breuer]

In comp.os.linux.misc John Wingate <jo****@worldpath.net> wrote:

Peter T. Breuer <pt*@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:

In comp.os.linux.misc Jeroen Wenting <jwenting at hornet dot demon dot nl> wrote:

Without Microsoft 90% of us would never have seen a computer more powerful
than a ZX-81 and 90% of the rest of us would never have used only dumb
mainframe terminals.
Uh - when microsoft produced dos 1.0, or whatever it was, I was sitting
at my Sun 360 workstation (with 4M of RAM, later upgraded to 8M),
running SunOS 3.8 or thereabouts.

Peter, if you are serious, and not just pulling our legs, your memory is
failing.
Well, it might be a bit off. I am talking about 1986.
MS-DOS 1.0 came out in August 1981; SunOS 3.0 in February 1986.
Seems about right.

So what version of msdos was around at that time? Obviously I didn't
use it!
Sun Microsystems was incorporated (with four employees) in February 1982.
There never was a SunOS 3.8. (SunOS 3.5 was succeeded by 4.0.) And I'm
It seems to me that I was using 3.x. Maybe it was 3.1? I seem to
remember an earlier major ... was there a 2.8 or 2.9?
not sure what you mean by "Sun 360"--a Sun 3/60, maybe?

Seems likely. I recall it as a Sun 360m. "Monica" by name, following
the cpu serial number, mncaxxx (or something close). "Sun 3" definitely
rings a bell.

Peter

[John Bokma]

"Martin P. Hellwig" <mh******@xs4all.nl> wrote:

Jeroen Wenting wrote:
<cut>

Without Microsoft 90% of us would never have seen a computer more
powerful than a ZX-81 and 90% of the rest of us would never have used
only dumb mainframe terminals. <cut>
At the time you "PC" guys where hacking around monochrome green and a
bit lighter green screens I was doing multi-media editing on my Amiga
600. So perhaps we should state that we would have been a lot further
if not an incredible amount of cool technologies where bought by MS
and then simply put in the freezer to protect their future market
share.

You mean like the lamp that keeps burning forever, like Philips has?
Although Commodore where never serious competitors,
Because there programming skills were as worse as MS? I mean, their
BASIC had only 2 instuctions: PEEK and POKE?
they had
some "intern" difficulties, too bad but life goes on.
Yup, same for Acorn. Their RISC work station was the fastest computer
available for home users at that moment.
To go on, stable version of truly free unix likes where released
around 1994 that was in the same time MS was working on their super
stable released windows 95 and a slightly better NT 3.5 and let me not
forget OS/2 warp 3.0 .

I'm not a MS basher,
Yet you call NT slightly better compared to Windows 95. So you have no
clue what you're talking about.
hey I make money of them administrating them,
however to state that if we didn't had MS we would been in the IT
stone ages is blatantly wrong,
Now there is truth.
I think we would have been a lot
further
No, since companies are just companies, not little gods like some want
them to be.
then where we are now. Perhaps we even had a other mainstream
architecture like sparcs and powerpc's.

But "crippled" like Intel.

--
John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
I ploink googlegroups.com :-)

[Michael Heiming]

In comp.os.linux.misc John Bokma <jo**@castleamber.com>:

Michael Heiming <mi************@www.heiming.de> wrote:

The only thing positive about M$ entering the market, probably
due to their ineffective programming style they pushed Intel into
producing pretty fast while cheapo CPUs. Amazing, I thought Xah Lee was the only one able to fit so much BS in one
sentence.
You them to have a talent to piss-off people with just a single
terse contribution. ;-)
Ironically exactly this
is the key to Linux/*BSD success in the unix server market. ;)

Yeah, right.

Good riddance!
--
Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
mail: echo zv*****@urvzvat.qr | perl -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
#bofh excuse 146: Communications satellite used by the military
for star wars.

[Michael Heiming]

In comp.os.linux.misc Peter T. Breuer <pt*@oboe.it.uc3m.es>:

In comp.os.linux.misc John Wingate <jo****@worldpath.net> wrote:

Peter T. Breuer <pt*@oboe.it.uc3m.es> wrote:

In comp.os.linux.misc Jeroen Wenting <jwenting at hornet dot demon dot nl> wrote:

[..]
Sun Microsystems was incorporated (with four employees) in February 1982.
There never was a SunOS 3.8. (SunOS 3.5 was succeeded by 4.0.) And I'm

It seems to me that I was using 3.x. Maybe it was 3.1? I seem to
remember an earlier major ... was there a 2.8 or 2.9?

Looks like SunOS 1.0 came out February 1982, according to:

http://www.levenez.com/unix/history.html#05

Kudos to the one who did the work!

--
Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
mail: echo zv*****@urvzvat.qr | perl -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
#bofh excuse 44: bank holiday - system operating credits
not recharged^

[John Bokma]

Michael Heiming <mi************@www.heiming.de> wrote:

In comp.os.linux.misc John Bokma <jo**@castleamber.com>:

Michael Heiming <mi************@www.heiming.de> wrote:

The only thing positive about M$ entering the market, probably
due to their ineffective programming style they pushed Intel into
producing pretty fast while cheapo CPUs.

Amazing, I thought Xah Lee was the only one able to fit so much BS in
one sentence.

You them to have a talent to piss-off people with just a single
terse contribution. ;-)

Only if their contribution is utter BS and I point this out.

--
John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
I ploink googlegroups.com :-)

[Michael Heiming]

In comp.os.linux.misc John Bokma <jo**@castleamber.com>:

Michael Heiming <mi************@www.heiming.de> wrote:

In comp.os.linux.misc John Bokma <jo**@castleamber.com>:

Michael Heiming <mi************@www.heiming.de> wrote:

The only thing positive about M$ entering the market, probably
due to their ineffective programming style they pushed Intel into
producing pretty fast while cheapo CPUs.

Amazing, I thought Xah Lee was the only one able to fit so much BS in
one sentence.

You them to have a talent to piss-off people with just a single
terse contribution. ;-)

Only if their contribution is utter BS and I point this out.

Dunno what's so BS about the possibility that the wintel mafia
works hand in hand, M$ introduces a new OS and Intel faster CPU.
People need to use the first, luckily both come bundled with the
latest PC people just need to buy right now. Iirc this is called
marketing, you don't seem to have much clue about.

BTW
Thx for reminding me to actually kill-file you.

PLONK

--
Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
mail: echo zv*****@urvzvat.qr | perl -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
#bofh excuse 183: filesystem not big enough for Jumbo Kernel
Patch

[Martin P. Hellwig]

John Bokma wrote:
<cut>

You mean like the lamp that keeps burning forever, like Philips has?

No more like all the hydrogen technologies that shell has in their
possession for the last decades and only recently has begun to restart
those projects.

Although Commodore where never serious competitors,

Because there programming skills were as worse as MS? I mean, their
BASIC had only 2 instuctions: PEEK and POKE?

eehm Amiga?

<cut>
Yet you call NT slightly better compared to Windows 95. So you have no
clue what you're talking about.
So I see you never worked serious with 3.5 .

hey I make money of them administrating them,
however to state that if we didn't had MS we would been in the IT
stone ages is blatantly wrong,

Now there is truth.

I think we would have been a lot
further

No, since companies are just companies, not little gods like some want
them to be.

then where we are now. Perhaps we even had a other mainstream
architecture like sparcs and powerpc's.

But "crippled" like Intel.

Yeah right sparc is crippled...

[Matt Garrish]

"Michael Heiming" <mi************@www.heiming.de> wrote in message
news:ig************@news.heiming.de...

In comp.os.linux.misc John Bokma <jo**@castleamber.com>:

Michael Heiming <mi************@www.heiming.de> wrote:

In comp.os.linux.misc John Bokma <jo**@castleamber.com>:
Michael Heiming <mi************@www.heiming.de> wrote:

> The only thing positive about M$ entering the market, probably
> due to their ineffective programming style they pushed Intel into
> producing pretty fast while cheapo CPUs.

Amazing, I thought Xah Lee was the only one able to fit so much BS in
one sentence.

You them to have a talent to piss-off people with just a single
terse contribution. ;-)

Only if their contribution is utter BS and I point this out.

Dunno what's so BS about the possibility that the wintel mafia
works hand in hand, M$ introduces a new OS and Intel faster CPU.

Your presumption that poor coding has anything to do with CPU development is
absurd. There may be times that M$ has to wait on faster chips before
pushing new technologies or Intel has to wait on M$ before pushing new chips
(like their 64bit chips that probably won't be get over-hyped until the next
iteration of Winblows rolls around), but that's hardly evidence of the two
working hand-in-hand.
People need to use the first, luckily both come bundled with the
latest PC people just need to buy right now. Iirc this is called
marketing, you don't seem to have much clue about.

Er, that's not called marketing but a software/hardware bundle. Marketing
would be the propaganda that tries to convince you that you need both. When
you have no option that's not marketing but a monopoly, which sort of brings
this all full-circle...

Matt

[Michael Heiming]

In comp.os.linux.misc Matt Garrish <ma*************@sympatico.ca>:

"Michael Heiming" <mi************@www.heiming.de> wrote in message [..]

Dunno what's so BS about the possibility that the wintel mafia
works hand in hand, M$ introduces a new OS and Intel faster CPU. Your presumption that poor coding has anything to do with CPU development is
absurd. There may be times that M$ has to wait on faster chips before
pushing new technologies or Intel has to wait on M$ before pushing new chips
(like their 64bit chips that probably won't be get over-hyped until the next
iteration of Winblows rolls around), but that's hardly evidence of the two
working hand-in-hand.
Doesn't really matter who is providing faster something that'll
need or provide more power, the other will catch up soon, just to
keep the game going.
People need to use the first, luckily both come bundled with the
latest PC people just need to buy right now. Iirc this is called
marketing, you don't seem to have much clue about.

Er, that's not called marketing but a software/hardware bundle. Marketing
would be the propaganda that tries to convince you that you need both. When
you have no option that's not marketing but a monopoly, which sort of brings
this all full-circle...

Ops, sorry. Having no option is M$ marketing (monopoly) for the
usual user. Glad to see you got my point. ;-)

--
Michael Heiming (X-PGP-Sig > GPG-Key ID: EDD27B94)
mail: echo zv*****@urvzvat.qr | perl -pe 'y/a-z/n-za-m/'
#bofh excuse 71: The file system is full of it

[John Bokma]

Michael Heiming <mi************@www.heiming.de> wrote:

PLONK

So you think you can make points by PLONKing people? Grow up and get a
life. You can learn from listening. You'll learn nothing from ploinking.

Oh, and I am not amazed, since people who claim utter BS is right, plonk
people who don't agree.

--
John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
I ploink googlegroups.com :-)

[John Bokma]

"Martin P. Hellwig" <mh******@xs4all.nl> wrote:

John Bokma wrote:
<cut>

You mean like the lamp that keeps burning forever, like Philips has?
No more like all the hydrogen technologies that shell has in their
possession for the last decades and only recently has begun to restart
those projects.

Although Commodore where never serious competitors,

Because there programming skills were as worse as MS? I mean, their
BASIC had only 2 instuctions: PEEK and POKE?

eehm Amiga?

Eehm: Acorn Archimedes?
<cut>

Yet you call NT slightly better compared to Windows 95. So you have
no clue what you're talking about.

So I see you never worked serious with 3.5 .

Yeah, that's it, I am sure.

then where we are now. Perhaps we even had a other mainstream
architecture like sparcs and powerpc's.

But "crippled" like Intel.

Yeah right sparc is crippled...

Yeah, right: Sparc is the ultimate goal in processor design, the best of
the best. You think it would have been that good if it was a mainstream
processor?

--
John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
I ploink googlegroups.com :-)

[Tim Roberts]

"Jeroen Wenting" <jwenting at hornet dot demon dot nl> wrote:

Microsoft isn't evil, they're not a monopoly either.
If they were a monopoly they'd have 100% of the market and there'd be no
other software manufacturers at all.
This is wrong. The dictionary definition of a monopoly is when a
manufacturer has all or nearly all of a market. Microsoft DOES have a
monopoly on PC operating systems.

That, in itself, is not necessarily illegal. However, Microsoft then USED
that monopoly power to stifle their competition, and that IS illegal.

Part of their behavior really escape me. The whole thing about browser
wars confuses me. Web browsers represent a zero billion dollar a year
market. Why would you risk anything to own it?
Without Microsoft 90% of us would never have seen a computer more powerful
than a ZX-81 and 90% of the rest of us would never have used only dumb
mainframe terminals.

Utter hogwash. Computer hardware would still have followed the path it
did. I suspect we'd all be using WordPerfect or AbiWord on some kind of
Unix clone, and I also suspect application integration wouldn't be as
commonplace as it now is, but it's silly to credit Microsoft with the
ubiquity of powerful computers.
--
- Tim Roberts, ti**@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

[John Bokma]

Tim Roberts <ti**@probo.com> wrote:

Part of their behavior really escape me. The whole thing about
browser wars confuses me. Web browsers represent a zero billion
dollar a year market. Why would you risk anything to own it?

Opera seems to be making money with it. Also, Firefox gets money from
Google kickback. Maybe MS had a similar idea in mind, but it failed
(remember how they wanted to add ads to keywords in webpages?)

--
John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
I ploink googlegroups.com :-)

[David Schwartz]

"Mike Meyer" <mw*@mired.org> wrote in message
news:86************@bhuda.mired.org...

What you call "clever marketing" the DOJ calls "monopolistic
practices". The courts agreed with the DOJ. Having had several large
PC manufacturers refuse to sell me a system without some form of
Windows because MS made it impossible for them to compete if they
didn't agree to do so, I agree with the courts and the DOJ.

Go down to your local car dealer and see if you can buy a new car
without an engine.

DS

[David Schwartz]

"Tim Roberts" <ti**@probo.com> wrote in message
news:a1********************************@4ax.com...

Part of their behavior really escape me. The whole thing about browser
wars confuses me. Web browsers represent a zero billion dollar a year
market. Why would you risk anything to own it?

It really isn't that hard to understand that web-based applications that
work in any browser on any OS threaten to make it irrelevent what OS you're
running. MS has a strong interest in making sure it's important to be
running on one of their OSes.

DS

[steve]

TROLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[John Bokma]

"David Schwartz" <da****@webmaster.com> wrote:

"Tim Roberts" <ti**@probo.com> wrote in message
news:a1********************************@4ax.com...

Part of their behavior really escape me. The whole thing about
browser wars confuses me. Web browsers represent a zero billion
dollar a year market. Why would you risk anything to own it?
It really isn't that hard to understand that web-based
applications that
work in any browser on any OS threaten to make it irrelevent what OS
you're running.

And it's even easier to understand that your statement is nonsense.

It doesn't matter which Linux distribution you pick, all use the Linux
kernel. On all I can run OpenOffice, and get the same results. Yet people
seem to prefer one distribution over one other.
MS has a strong interest in making sure it's important
to be running on one of their OSes.

Maybe *they* do have a point :-).

--
John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
I ploink googlegroups.com :-)

[joe]

John Bokma <jo**@castleamber.com> writes:

"David Schwartz" <da****@webmaster.com> wrote:

"Tim Roberts" <ti**@probo.com> wrote in message
news:a1********************************@4ax.com...

Part of their behavior really escape me. The whole thing about
browser wars confuses me. Web browsers represent a zero billion
dollar a year market. Why would you risk anything to own it?

It really isn't that hard to understand that web-based
applications that work in any browser on any OS threaten
to make it irrelevent what OS you're running.

And it's even easier to understand that your statement is nonsense.

It doesn't matter which Linux distribution you pick, all use the Linux
kernel. On all I can run OpenOffice, and get the same results. Yet people
seem to prefer one distribution over one other.

He was talking about the browser war, and gave a pretty good reason
why it was important. So you respond by pointing out that people
choose a linux distribution for personal (non-technical,
non-marketing) reasons. I think I missed the connection.

MS has a strong interest in making sure it's important
to be running on one of their OSes.

Maybe *they* do have a point :-).

Which is?

Joe
--
Gort, klatu barada nikto

[Matt Garrish]

"Tim Roberts" <ti**@probo.com> wrote in message
news:a1********************************@4ax.com...

"Jeroen Wenting" <jwenting at hornet dot demon dot nl> wrote:

Microsoft isn't evil, they're not a monopoly either.
If they were a monopoly they'd have 100% of the market and there'd be no
other software manufacturers at all.

This is wrong. The dictionary definition of a monopoly is when a
manufacturer has all or nearly all of a market. Microsoft DOES have a
monopoly on PC operating systems.

That, in itself, is not necessarily illegal. However, Microsoft then USED
that monopoly power to stifle their competition, and that IS illegal.

Part of their behavior really escape me. The whole thing about browser
wars confuses me. Web browsers represent a zero billion dollar a year
market. Why would you risk anything to own it?

It may not be worth loads of money in-and-of itself now (don't forget
Netscape wasn't always free, though), but if you control how people view the
Internet you can make a lot of money in other ways, especially if you build
your browser into your operating system and warp standards so that people
who design sites take advantage of the proprietary features. Eventually the
hope is that your OS and browser will become the only means of accessing the
internet. And if your OS and browser are the only way to access the
Internet, who in their right mind would use another system?

Matt

[David Schwartz]

"John Bokma" <jo**@castleamber.com> wrote in message
news:Xn*************************@130.133.1.4...

"David Schwartz" <da****@webmaster.com> wrote:

"Tim Roberts" <ti**@probo.com> wrote in message
news:a1********************************@4ax.com...

Part of their behavior really escape me. The whole thing about
browser wars confuses me. Web browsers represent a zero billion
dollar a year market. Why would you risk anything to own it?

It really isn't that hard to understand that web-based
applications that
work in any browser on any OS threaten to make it irrelevent what OS
you're running. And it's even easier to understand that your statement is nonsense.
To you, if you don't understand it.
It doesn't matter which Linux distribution you pick, all use the Linux
kernel. On all I can run OpenOffice, and get the same results. Yet people
seem to prefer one distribution over one other.
Right, and that's what Microsoft wants to avoid. They wants to make sure
people *have* to choose a Microsoft operating system to get their
applications to work. He doesn't want most applications to work the same on
all operating systems. MS was afraid the browser would replace the operating
system in the sense that it would be the target platform for applications.
MS has a strong interest in making sure it's important
to be running on one of their OSes.

Maybe *they* do have a point :-).

Well, they have their vision of the future of computing, and you can bet
all things made by Microsoft are at the center of it.

DS

[Greymaus]

Mike Meyer wrote:

You clearly weren't paying attention to what the rest
of the microcomputer industry was doing while Gates was selling IBM
non-existent software. While IBM was introducing 16-bit processors and
DOS was doing a flat file system, Tandy was selliig systems - for a
fraction of the price of any MS-DOS based system - that were
multitasking, multiuser, had an optional windowing system that came
with a complete (for the time) office suite. Of course, that was while
Tandy still thought they could sell computers by selling better
computers than you could get running MS software.

Was that the Color Computer III running OS9 Level II for an operating
system, that you're talking about? Motorola 6809 processor? HELLUVA
little computer! OS9 was a bit quirky, though, even for a UNIX clone.

[Måns Rullgård]

"David Schwartz" <da****@webmaster.com> writes:

"Mike Meyer" <mw*@mired.org> wrote in message
news:86************@bhuda.mired.org...

What you call "clever marketing" the DOJ calls "monopolistic
practices". The courts agreed with the DOJ. Having had several large
PC manufacturers refuse to sell me a system without some form of
Windows because MS made it impossible for them to compete if they
didn't agree to do so, I agree with the courts and the DOJ.

Go down to your local car dealer and see if you can buy a new car
without an engine.

That's more like buying a computer without a CPU, which I can in fact
do. Buying a computer without ms windows is more like buying a hifi
set without a Britney Spears CD. I can do that too.

--
Måns Rullgård
mr*@inprovide.com

[John Bokma]

jo*@invalid.address wrote:

John Bokma <jo**@castleamber.com> writes:

"David Schwartz" <da****@webmaster.com> wrote:

>
> "Tim Roberts" <ti**@probo.com> wrote in message
> news:a1********************************@4ax.com...
>
>> Part of their behavior really escape me. The whole thing about
>> browser wars confuses me. Web browsers represent a zero billion
>> dollar a year market. Why would you risk anything to own it?
>
> It really isn't that hard to understand that web-based
> applications that work in any browser on any OS threaten
> to make it irrelevent what OS you're running.

And it's even easier to understand that your statement is nonsense.

It doesn't matter which Linux distribution you pick, all use the
Linux kernel. On all I can run OpenOffice, and get the same results.
Yet people seem to prefer one distribution over one other.

He was talking about the browser war, and gave a pretty good reason
why it was important. So you respond by pointing out that people
choose a linux distribution for personal (non-technical,
non-marketing) reasons. I think I missed the connection.

web based applications that work with any browser make OS irrelevant ->
not true, since for OpenOffice it doesn't matter which Linux
distribution one runs (or even if it's Linux), yet people seem to make a
point of which distribution they use.

> MS has a strong interest in making sure it's important
> to be running on one of their OSes.

Maybe *they* do have a point :-).

Which is?

That it *does* matter. It doesn't matter which brand makes your graphics
card, since most stick close to the reference design of the GPU chip
supplier, yet people take the brand in consideration when they buy.

--
John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
I ploink googlegroups.com :-)

[John Bokma]

"David Schwartz" <da****@webmaster.com> wrote:

"John Bokma" <jo**@castleamber.com> wrote in message
news:Xn*************************@130.133.1.4...

"David Schwartz" <da****@webmaster.com> wrote:

"Tim Roberts" <ti**@probo.com> wrote in message
news:a1********************************@4ax.com... Part of their behavior really escape me. The whole thing about
browser wars confuses me. Web browsers represent a zero billion
dollar a year market. Why would you risk anything to own it? It really isn't that hard to understand that web-based
applications that
work in any browser on any OS threaten to make it irrelevent what OS
you're running.

And it's even easier to understand that your statement is nonsense.

To you, if you don't understand it.

See my other example regarding graphics cards. Even if something comes
out of exactly the same factory (for example CD recordables), people
prefer one brand over one other, even if the only difference is the name
on the box. So even if some applications run in a web browser, there
will be people who prefer OS a over OS b, or Linux distribution c over
Linux distribution d. Even if it doesn't matter at all.

It doesn't matter which Linux distribution you pick, all use the
Linux kernel. On all I can run OpenOffice, and get the same results.
Yet people seem to prefer one distribution over one other.

Right, and that's what Microsoft wants to avoid. They wants to
make sure
people *have* to choose a Microsoft operating system to get their
applications to work. He

Who?
doesn't want most applications to work the
same on all operating systems. MS was afraid the browser would replace
the operating system in the sense that it would be the target platform
for applications.

I have no idea what MS was afraid off. They just deny at first that
something is important, and then take over. Somehow it works for them.

MS has a strong interest in making sure it's important
to be running on one of their OSes.

Maybe *they* do have a point :-).

Well, they have their vision of the future of computing, and you
can bet
all things made by Microsoft are at the center of it.

Yup, and I think they will be right for quite some time.

--
John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
I ploink googlegroups.com :-)

[John Bokma]

"Matt Garrish" <ma*************@sympatico.ca> wrote:

"Tim Roberts" <ti**@probo.com> wrote in message
news:a1********************************@4ax.com...

"Jeroen Wenting" <jwenting at hornet dot demon dot nl> wrote:

Microsoft isn't evil, they're not a monopoly either.
If they were a monopoly they'd have 100% of the market and there'd be
no other software manufacturers at all.
This is wrong. The dictionary definition of a monopoly is when a
manufacturer has all or nearly all of a market. Microsoft DOES have
a monopoly on PC operating systems.

That, in itself, is not necessarily illegal. However, Microsoft then
USED that monopoly power to stifle their competition, and that IS
illegal.

Part of their behavior really escape me. The whole thing about
browser wars confuses me. Web browsers represent a zero billion
dollar a year market. Why would you risk anything to own it?

It may not be worth loads of money in-and-of itself now (don't forget
Netscape wasn't always free, though), but if you control how people
view the Internet you can make a lot of money in other ways,
especially if you build your browser into your operating system and
warp standards

Which standards? W3C doesn't make standards (they talk about working
drafts and recommendations), so nothing to warp there for MS.
so that people who design sites take advantage of the
proprietary features.
Yup, Netscape did the same, remember LiveScript (renamed to JavaScript
for obvious reasons), and the elements they added? (Like the, horror,
blink)
Eventually the hope is that your OS and browser
will become the only means of accessing the internet. And if your OS
and browser are the only way to access the Internet, who in their
right mind would use another system?

It's not happening, so what are you talking about? Any developer hoping
the above has no clue what he/she is developing.

--
John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
I ploink googlegroups.com :-)

[joe]

John Bokma <jo**@castleamber.com> writes:

jo*@invalid.address wrote:

John Bokma <jo**@castleamber.com> writes:

"David Schwartz" <da****@webmaster.com> wrote:
>
> "Tim Roberts" <ti**@probo.com> wrote in message
> news:a1********************************@4ax.com...
>
>> Part of their behavior really escape me. The whole thing
>> about browser wars confuses me. Web browsers represent a zero
>> billion dollar a year market. Why would you risk anything to
>> own it?
>
> It really isn't that hard to understand that web-based
> applications that work in any browser on any OS threaten to
> make it irrelevent what OS you're running.

And it's even easier to understand that your statement is
nonsense.

It doesn't matter which Linux distribution you pick, all use the
Linux kernel. On all I can run OpenOffice, and get the same
results. Yet people seem to prefer one distribution over one
other.

He was talking about the browser war, and gave a pretty good
reason why it was important. So you respond by pointing out that
people choose a linux distribution for personal (non-technical,
non-marketing) reasons. I think I missed the connection.

web based applications that work with any browser make OS irrelevant
-> not true, since for OpenOffice it doesn't matter which Linux
distribution one runs (or even if it's Linux), yet people seem to
make a point of which distribution they use.

A linux distribution isn't an OS, it's a distribution, so I'm not sure
what your point here is.

In fact, there are lots of Microsoft-centric web pages that don't
work well when accessed from a linux system. ActiveX, MS Java, etc.

> MS has a strong interest in making sure it's important
> to be running on one of their OSes.

Maybe *they* do have a point :-).

Which is?

That it *does* matter. It doesn't matter which brand makes your
graphics card, since most stick close to the reference design of the
GPU chip supplier, yet people take the brand in consideration when
they buy.

I don't think that's true, at least not yet. I recently bought a
Compaq Presario, which came with XP installed. I wiped the disk and
installed Linux, only to find that the hardware would only work under
XP. So I then had to install network, video, sound etc cards to get it
working.

joe
--
Gort, klatu barada nikto

[John Bokma]

jo*@invalid.address wrote:

John Bokma <jo**@castleamber.com> writes:

jo*@invalid.address wrote:

> John Bokma <jo**@castleamber.com> writes:
>
>> "David Schwartz" <da****@webmaster.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > "Tim Roberts" <ti**@probo.com> wrote in message
>> > news:a1********************************@4ax.com...
>> >
>> >> Part of their behavior really escape me. The whole thing
>> >> about browser wars confuses me. Web browsers represent a zero
>> >> billion dollar a year market. Why would you risk anything to
>> >> own it?
>> >
>> > It really isn't that hard to understand that web-based
>> > applications that work in any browser on any OS threaten to
>> > make it irrelevent what OS you're running.
>>
>> And it's even easier to understand that your statement is
>> nonsense.
>>
>> It doesn't matter which Linux distribution you pick, all use the
>> Linux kernel. On all I can run OpenOffice, and get the same
>> results. Yet people seem to prefer one distribution over one
>> other.
>
> He was talking about the browser war, and gave a pretty good
> reason why it was important. So you respond by pointing out that
> people choose a linux distribution for personal (non-technical,
> non-marketing) reasons. I think I missed the connection.
web based applications that work with any browser make OS irrelevant
-> not true, since for OpenOffice it doesn't matter which Linux
distribution one runs (or even if it's Linux), yet people seem to
make a point of which distribution they use.

A linux distribution isn't an OS, it's a distribution, so I'm not sure
what your point here is.

Ok, let me spell it out for you: If all your applications are web based,
and the OS shouldn't matter, why do Linux distributions matter? It
doesn't matter which one you use to run, for example, OpenOffice. Yet
people pick a certain distribution. Why? Well, one reason is that people
like to belong to a group. So even if it really doesn't matter which OS
you are going to use to access a web application, or even which browser,
people will pick a certain browser, and a certain OS, just because.
In fact, there are lots
How much?
of Microsoft-centric web pages that don't
work well when accessed from a linux system. ActiveX, MS Java, etc.
Does it matter? There are webpages that just don't work for some people,
no matter that they do work for others. You can't just make up one
standard average user and design the web for it.

>> > MS has a strong interest in making sure it's important
>> > to be running on one of their OSes.
>>
>> Maybe *they* do have a point :-).
>
> Which is?

That it *does* matter. It doesn't matter which brand makes your
graphics card, since most stick close to the reference design of the
GPU chip supplier, yet people take the brand in consideration when
they buy.

I don't think that's true, at least not yet. I recently bought a
Compaq Presario,

Hey, me too :-) (SR1505LA to be exactly, and it does work with Kubuntu,
or at least I get a picture).
which came with XP installed. I wiped the disk and
Me too (but that was to get rid of the Spanish XP)
installed Linux, only to find that the hardware would only work under
XP.
Now that's odd, since mine worked, network, video, sound, etc.
So I then had to install network, video, sound etc cards to get it
working.

Odd, very odd. But I am quite sure that if you don't have a driver for a
certain chip set, that it doesn't matter who puts the chip set on a
piece of PCB, it isn't going to work.

--
John Small Perl scripts: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
Perl programmer available: http://castleamber.com/
I ploink googlegroups.com :-)

[John W. Kennedy]

Rhino wrote:

Everyone
else was still using typewriters - which was IBM's bread and butter in those
days - for their business needs.

Oh dear, no. Not quite. There were, going back decades, machines that
used punched cards, relays, stepper wheels, and punched cards. It was
/that/ that was the foundation of IBM's business, and IBM had an
effective monopoly. This was not altogether due to evil; their one
competitor, Remington Rand, made machines that were slightly better, but
had to be factory-programmed, whereas IBM's machines used panels full of
jumper wires, and the panels themselves could be swapped, so that you
could have a "program library" of prewired panels. Which would /you/ buy?

Remington Rand made a similar mistake with computers. They wouldn't give
you a programming manual until you contracted to buy the bloody thing.
IBM pulled ahead of them during the year when Univac computers were real
and IBM computers weren't, and they never looked back.

--
John W. Kennedy
"Those in the seat of power oft forget their failings and seek only the
obeisance of others! Thus is bad government born! Hold in your heart
that you and the people are one, human beings all, and good government
shall arise of its own accord! Such is the path of virtue!"
-- Kazuo Koike. "Lone Wolf and Cub: Thirteen Strings" (tr. Dana Lewis)

[Steve Sobol]

Xah Lee wrote:

Answer: so did the German population thought Jews are morons by
heritage, to the point that Jews should be exterminated from earth.
Apparently, the entire German population cannot be morons, they must be
right.

Y'know, I'm Jewish, I have friends who are Holocaust survivors, and I still
think you're a complete asshole for even attempting to compare anything
Microsoft does to what Hitler did. It trivializes the Holocaust.

Fuck off.

Please.

(There, I said "please.")

--
Steve Sobol, Professional Geek 888-480-4638 PGP: 0xE3AE35ED
Company website: http://JustThe.net/
Personal blog, resume, portfolio: http://SteveSobol.com/
E: sj*****@JustThe.net Snail: 22674 Motnocab Road, Apple Valley, CA 92307