PyGTK or wxPython (not a flame war) on Windows

[TPJ]

GUI's etc: PyGtk on Windows
"(...) So if someone develops mainly for X and just wants to make sure
that it is not impossible to run on Windows, you can use PyGTK. (...)",
July 2nd, 1999

pyGTK on Windows
"(...)

can i use pyGTK under
Windows???

It's probably doable (...) but not worthy in my oppinion (...). A much
better choice is wxPython (...)"

"(...)even if it is made to work under windows, pygtk would not have a
windows look and feel. wxPython is probably your best bet (...)"

pygtk vs. wxPython
4. "(...) If you want cross-platform capabilities (...) then go
wxWindows." May 17 2002

7. "(...) The pygtk (and gtk port in general) does not yet support
threading on windows. (...) GTK 2.0 is supposed to fix it but support
isn't available *yet*. (...)" May 17 2002

PyGTK vs. wxPython
7. "(...) wxPython would indeed be a better choice if your applications
are only to run on a certain infamous legacy operating system from the
Pacific Northwest. The PyGTK is a better choice if you are writing for
Linux and want your application to also be able to run on windows.
(...)" Apr 25

11. "(...) I'm using wxPython because GTK for windows wasn't ready
three years ago when I initially had to write my first Windows
application. If I evaluated both of them again today, I might choose
GTK, and I might not." Apr 27

In the nearest future I will have to decide what to use: PyGTK or
wxPython. I like those both APIs. wxPython has more widgets, but PyGTK
seems to be faster. I can use them both for free (it's very important).
My only concern is that although I'm doing development on Linux, I'd
like to make my application runnable on Windows as well (Py2Exe). I'd
like to choose PyGTK (because of its rich documentation), but I'm not
sure if PyGTK is stable on Windows... For now I know that wxPython runs
well on Windows.

For now I haven't experienced any problems with wxPython on Linux
(Slackware, Aurox /Polish RH-like distro/). I used wxPython on Linux,
but I stopped because of its poor documentation (mainly C++ docs, not
Python docs). But recently I noticed this documentation got better
(*much* better!).

How well does PyGTK run on Windows (98, 2K, XP)? How stable is it? Will
I be able to make an executable (using Py2Exe) of an application that
uses PyGTK?

[Sybren Stuvel]

TPJ enlightened us with:

I'd like to choose PyGTK (because of its rich documentation), but
I'm not sure if PyGTK is stable on Windows... For now I know that
wxPython runs well on Windows.

Don't forget that wxPython looks like Mac on a Mac. That's important
too :)

Sybren
--
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
Frank Zappa

[Fuzzyman]

TPJ wrote:

GUI's etc: PyGtk on Windows
"(...) So if someone develops mainly for X and just wants to make sure
that it is not impossible to run on Windows, you can use PyGTK. (...)",
July 2nd, 1999

pyGTK on Windows
"(...)

can i use pyGTK under
Windows???

It's probably doable (...) but not worthy in my oppinion (...). A much
better choice is wxPython (...)"

"(...)even if it is made to work under windows, pygtk would not have a
windows look and feel. wxPython is probably your best bet (...)"

pygtk vs. wxPython
4. "(...) If you want cross-platform capabilities (...) then go
wxWindows." May 17 2002

7. "(...) The pygtk (and gtk port in general) does not yet support
threading on windows. (...) GTK 2.0 is supposed to fix it but support
isn't available *yet*. (...)" May 17 2002

PyGTK vs. wxPython
7. "(...) wxPython would indeed be a better choice if your applications
are only to run on a certain infamous legacy operating system from the
Pacific Northwest. The PyGTK is a better choice if you are writing for
Linux and want your application to also be able to run on windows.
(...)" Apr 25

11. "(...) I'm using wxPython because GTK for windows wasn't ready
three years ago when I initially had to write my first Windows
application. If I evaluated both of them again today, I might choose
GTK, and I might not." Apr 27

In the nearest future I will have to decide what to use: PyGTK or
wxPython. I like those both APIs. wxPython has more widgets, but PyGTK
seems to be faster. I can use them both for free (it's very important).
My only concern is that although I'm doing development on Linux, I'd
like to make my application runnable on Windows as well (Py2Exe). I'd
like to choose PyGTK (because of its rich documentation), but I'm not
sure if PyGTK is stable on Windows... For now I know that wxPython runs
well on Windows.

For now I haven't experienced any problems with wxPython on Linux
(Slackware, Aurox /Polish RH-like distro/). I used wxPython on Linux,
but I stopped because of its poor documentation (mainly C++ docs, not
Python docs). But recently I noticed this documentation got better
(*much* better!).

How well does PyGTK run on Windows (98, 2K, XP)? How stable is it? Will
I be able to make an executable (using Py2Exe) of an application that
uses PyGTK?

I use wxPython through Wax - Wax makes it nice and easy. Note that
wxPython doesn't have a completely native look and feel on Windoze, but
it's pretty good.

I've never programmed with pygtk - *but* I did play with Gajim (?) a
Jabber client written with pygtk. The look and feel isn't native
eaither - but it's very classy. It made me want to learn GTK ! I'll
probably stick with Wax though. Gajim ahs a version bundled with py2exe
- which definitley works. The only slight downer is that the user has
to install the GTK+ runtime. (The wealth of chociues makes this
*slightly* confusing for the complete noob).

Best Regards,

Fuzzy
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python

[Dave Cook]

On 2005-07-22, TPJ <tp*****@interia.pl> wrote:

7. "(...) The pygtk (and gtk port in general) does not yet support
threading on windows. (...) GTK 2.0 is supposed to fix it but support
isn't available *yet*. (...)" May 17 2002
Pretty sure this hasn't been the case for a long time. The current stable
version of gtk is 2.6.
sure if PyGTK is stable on Windows... For now I know that wxPython runs
well on Windows.
I've used pygtk with success on windows. I suggest installing the gladewin
package and pygtk, then perhaps hacking some of the demos in the pygtk
distro.

http://gladewin32.sourceforge.net/index.php
http://www.pcpm.ucl.ac.be/~gustin/win32_ports/

One advocacy point: There are complete reference docs, an extensive
tutorial, and a constantly evolving FAQ for pygtk.

One point against: requires X11 on a Mac; definitely not native there,
though that's where I do a lot of my pygtk development.
I be able to make an executable (using Py2Exe) of an application that
uses PyGTK?

Yes. http://www.async.com.br/faq/pygtk/in...=faq21.005.htp

Dave Cook

[Jarek Zgoda]

TPJ napisa³(a):

In the nearest future I will have to decide what to use: PyGTK or
wxPython. I like those both APIs. wxPython has more widgets, but PyGTK
seems to be faster. I can use them both for free (it's very important).
My only concern is that although I'm doing development on Linux, I'd
like to make my application runnable on Windows as well (Py2Exe). I'd
like to choose PyGTK (because of its rich documentation), but I'm not
sure if PyGTK is stable on Windows... For now I know that wxPython runs
well on Windows.

For now I haven't experienced any problems with wxPython on Linux
(Slackware, Aurox /Polish RH-like distro/). I used wxPython on Linux,
but I stopped because of its poor documentation (mainly C++ docs, not
Python docs). But recently I noticed this documentation got better
(*much* better!).

How well does PyGTK run on Windows (98, 2K, XP)? How stable is it? Will
I be able to make an executable (using Py2Exe) of an application that
uses PyGTK?

PyGTK runs reasonably well on Win32, although not as good as wx. On
linux situation is reversed -- wx runs acceptably well, in contrast to
PyGTK which works like a charm.

PyQt works equally well on both systems.

--
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/

[Neil Hodgson]

One thing I don't like with GTK+ on Windows is that it uses GTK+
file dialogs rather than system file dialogs. wxWidgets uses file
dialogs that appear very similar to the system dialogs. Depends on your
customers but I don't think this is reasonable for most applications.
http://www.scintilla.org/GtkFile.png

Neil

[Marek Kubica]

Hello!

How well does PyGTK run on Windows (98, 2K, XP)? How stable is it? Will
I be able to make an executable (using Py2Exe) of an application that
uses PyGTK?

I _do_ like PyGTK on Windows. It works without problems.
You can find a ready to use py2exe script on
http://www.pythonwiki.de/PyGtk. You could also bundle the runtime DLLs with
your py2exe'd application, but I have never done this. You could try doing
this like described here:
http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Mai...-users/2476686 (use the
setup.py script from the wiki and start at (2) in the mail).

HTH.

greets,
Marek

PS: Yes, I admit it is harder than py2exe + wxPython but I still like
PyGTK.

[TPJ]

> I've used pygtk with success on windows. (...)

[will] I be able to make an executable (using Py2Exe) of an application
that uses PyGTK?
Yes.

So PyGTK is now my favourite. Better documentation, runs on Linux and
Windows, the possibility to make an executable program with Py2Exe.
It's enough for me.
One point against: requires X11 on a Mac; definitely not native there,
though that's where I do a lot of my pygtk development.

I suppose that 95% of my application's users will work on Win. The rest
will work on *nix. So my primary concern is PC world.

AFAIK PyGTK doesn't look native on Win as well, but I don't care.

[TPJ]

> PyQt works equally well on both systems.

I believe you. The problem is I don't like GPL.

[TPJ]

Thanks a lot!

Now I know I can choose PyGTK. I really like it because of its rich
documentation.

You could also bundle the runtime DLLs with your py2exe'd application

That's great. I think my clients will appreciate a single one
executable.

[Marek Kubica]

Hello!

AFAIK PyGTK doesn't look native on Win as well, but I don't care.

It does have a nearly-native look and feel:
http://gtk-wimp.sourceforge.net/screenshots/
And yes, the theme adjusts itself to Windows XP themes, so GTK+ apps look
nearly like any other Windows Program. The native look and feel is not as
good as the look and feel of wx but still really _much_ better than older
versions of GTK.

This is done by a theme engine.. you can find it in the gladewin32 package.

greets,
Marek

[Torsten Bronger]

Hallöchen!

Marek Kubica <py***********@web.de> writes:

Hello!

AFAIK PyGTK doesn't look native on Win as well, but I don't care.

[...] The native look and feel is not as good as the look and feel
of wx but still really _much_ better than older versions of GTK.

Is PyGTK more Pythonic by the way? I had a look at wxPython
yesterday and didn't like that it has been brought into the Python
world nearly unchanged. You can see its non-Python origin clearly.
How does PyGTK feel in this respect?

Tschö,
Torsten.

--
Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetus

[Marek Kubica]

Hi!

Am Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:47:30 +0200 schrieb Torsten Bronger:

Is PyGTK more Pythonic by the way? I had a look at wxPython
yesterday and didn't like that it has been brought into the Python
world nearly unchanged. You can see its non-Python origin clearly.
How does PyGTK feel in this respect?

Well.. I'd say, PyGTK is still quite like GTK in C. There are some nice
features like iterators in treeviews but some things are IMHO unneccesary
difficult and much more elegant in wx.

I have started GUIs in Python with wx, but after a short time I was annoyed
how many things were buggy. I don't know why, but I fell from one bug to
the other while programming one application. Then, I tried GTK on Windows,
because I know GTK+ 2 a bit liked it. First I was very impressed, the
documentation (Tutorial + Reference + FAQ) was after wxPy 2.4.x _very_
impressive and things which were difficult in wxPy were easy in PyGTK. But
after some time I realized some other things were complicated in PyGTK.

You see, there is no non-plus-ultra GUI library and my best advice is to
test it yourself to see which one fits your needs best.

I hope a Qt4 compatible PyQt will be released soon, I'm curious about the
new Qt4, which is free for GPL-only software on Windows.

greets,
Marek

[Torsten Bronger]

Hallöchen!

Marek Kubica <py***********@web.de> writes:

[...]

I have started GUIs in Python with wx, but after a short time I
was annoyed how many things were buggy. I don't know why, but I
fell from one bug to the other while programming one application.

I'm very suprised. wxPython is still that buggy? I read reports
from 2000 about such observations, but they tried wxPython in a
non-standard way, and the project has had 5 years to become more
stable after all. Besides, wxPython prepares for being included
into the standard distribution.

What did you do?

Tschö,
Torsten.

--
Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetus

[Bryan]

Torsten Bronger wrote:

Besides, wxPython prepares for being included
into the standard distribution.

wow, i've never heard this said so explicitly. is there a reference link
backing up this statement? i really really hope this is true. i'm very much in
favor to see wx included in the standard distrubution.

bryan

[Peter Decker]

On 7/24/05, Torsten Bronger <br*****@physik.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:

Is PyGTK more Pythonic by the way? I had a look at wxPython
yesterday and didn't like that it has been brought into the Python
world nearly unchanged. You can see its non-Python origin clearly.
How does PyGTK feel in this respect?

There are several projects that have as their goal to wrap wxPython
and make it more Pythonic. IMO, the best choice now is Dabo, which is
being actively developed and improved. There is also Wax, which I got
interested a while ago, but it seems to be the work of a single author
who only works on it when he has a personal need.

I've been doing some development work in Dabo, even though I don't
currently need their database integration. The UI layer is very
Pythonic, and I much prefer writing code in Dabo than plain wxPython.
--

# p.d.

[Dave Cook]

On 2005-07-24, Torsten Bronger <br*****@physik.rwth-aachen.de> wrote:

Is PyGTK more Pythonic by the way?

I find it more Pythonic than "raw" wxpython. However, the API still has the
fingerprints of C programmers all over it. Compare the gtk's clunky
treemodel/treeview API to Cocoa's elegant delegates.

There is a higher level interface for pygtk called kiwi:

http://async.com.br/projects/kiwi/

Dave Cook

[Tim Lesher]

Yes, it's not that hard to get the native file dialogs, as described in
the FAQ:

http://www.async.com.br/faq/pygtk/in...=faq21.013.htp

It would be nice if PyGTK had a knob for making it use win32 dialogs by
default, though.

[Paul Rubin]

I've had miserable experiences trying to use WxPython or GTK under
both RH9 and Fedora Core 3. There is some version skew between the
installed versions of GTK and the WxWidgets on the distro site. I
made some progress by installing an old version of GTK but there was
still some problem. I decided it wasn't worth the hassle.

Unless there's some serious importance to making your gui very slick,
I think the only Python gui toolkit worth considering is Tkinter. It
has drawbacks but it's the one that seems to work the most
consistently with the least hassle.

[Torsten Bronger]

Hallöchen!

Bryan <be****@gmail.com> writes:

Torsten Bronger wrote:

Besides, wxPython prepares for being included into the standard
distribution.

wow, i've never heard this said so explicitly. is there a
reference link backing up this statement? i really really hope
this is true. i'm very much in favor to see wx included in the
standard distrubution.

As far as i know, there is nothing official. But I've read several
times that it's the most likely candidate for a seconds GUI system
for being included.

Tschö,
Torsten.

--
Torsten Bronger, aquisgrana, europa vetus

[Robert Kern]

Torsten Bronger wrote:

As far as i know, there is nothing official. But I've read several
times that it's the most likely candidate for a seconds GUI system
for being included.

I think you're reading *way* too much into people engaging in wishful
thinking.

--
Robert Kern
rk***@ucsd.edu

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
-- Richard Harter

[Jarek Zgoda]

TPJ napisa³(a):

PyQt works equally well on both systems.

I believe you. The problem is I don't like GPL.

So, buy commercial license for Qt and PyQt.

--
Jarek Zgoda
http://jpa.berlios.de/

[Peter Hansen]

Torsten Bronger wrote:

Marek Kubica <py***********@web.de> writes:

I have started GUIs in Python with wx, but after a short time I
was annoyed how many things were buggy. I don't know why, but I
fell from one bug to the other while programming one application.

I'm very suprised. wxPython is still that buggy?

Not really. One can go many months, or years, without encountering a
bug in a wxPython program which is not actually a bug in one's own code.

Use of "unstable" (i.e. new and/or rapidly changing) parts of the
framework are a different story. As with most Open Source projects,
such code is in flux and one uses it at one's own risk (reporting, I
hope, bugs that are encountered so that they can be fixed).

-Peter

[Marek Kubica]

Hi!

On Sun, 24 Jul 2005 22:16:01 +0200 Torsten Bronger wrote:

I'm very suprised. wxPython is still that buggy? I read reports
from 2000 about such observations, but they tried wxPython in a
non-standard way, and the project has had 5 years to become more
stable after all. Well, I don't know version 2.6.x but I had some trouble with 2.4. I was
trying to mass-hide buttons, which was possible with .detach() or .hide()
(or was it .show(False)?). This was explained in the documentation, but in
the release I had, was a bug somewhere and the widgets had no .detach()
function. Robin Dunn said it will be fixed in the next release.. but that
release came months later. But I know that the release cycles had got a lot
faster in the meantime.
Besides, wxPython prepares for being included into the standard distribution.

To replace Tkinter? No problem with that :)

Oh, I see, there seems to be a more pythonic wrapper for wx: wax..
http://www.zephyrfalcon.org/labs/wax.html

greets,
Marek

[Lonnie Princehouse]

I haven't used PyGTK very much, so I can't comment on it. My last
impression of GTK-on-Windows was that it wasn't very stable and didn't
blend well with the Windows native look and feel, but that was a while
ago and it has probably improved a great deal since then.

I use wxPython, doing my development on Linux while most of the users
are on Windows. The documentation for wxPython is lame (as you pointed
out, it requires a lot of translation from C++), however the wxPython
demo app is WONDERFUL. It has great usage examples for all of the
widgets, along with source code. PyGTK has a similar demo app (which
appears to be an exact Python port of gtk-demo). wxPython does seem to
have a richer widget set.

One of the annoyances with wxPython is that there are many lingering
traces of C++, for example the need to have ID numbers all over the
place, and the ALL_CAPS_NAMES_FOR_CONSTANTS. Version 2.5 introduced
some good pythonic syntax improvements, so make sure you get a recent
version, and also make sure that whatever code examples you're learning
from use the new syntax for event binding, etc.

[TPJ]

I have encountered some problems with PyGTK only when I was trying to
install a PyGTK version that was different from the installed GTK+
version. When those both versions were the same, I had no problems at
all.

(Another problem with PyGTK is that it's installation is somewhat more
complicated that installation of wxPython, but I wrote a script that
can download and install PyGTK. The user have to tell where all this
stuff should be installed to and the script just does the rest.)

Tkinter is out of question. It looks ugly. I'd like to write a program
that would look nice.