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What do you want in a new web framework?

Hello Everyone,

Now, I'm working on a new web framework. I tried many test on the other
programming languages. Then i decided to use python on my web framework
project.

Now i want to listen all of you. What do you want in that web
framework(Easy use of Database, Easy use of XML, GUI Designer, etc...)?

I'm wating your answers. Thank you for all answers...!

King Regards,

Emrah Ayanoglu

Aug 20 '06 #1
34 3621
In <11************ **********@p79g 2000cwp.googleg roups.com>, emrahayanoglu
wrote:
Now, I'm working on a new web framework. I tried many test on the other
programming languages. Then i decided to use python on my web framework
project.

Now i want to listen all of you. What do you want in that web
framework(Easy use of Database, Easy use of XML, GUI Designer, etc...)?

I'm wating your answers. Thank you for all answers...!
Don't think that yet another Python web framework is really needed.

Ciao,
Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch
Aug 20 '06 #2
Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch wrote:
emrahayanoglu wrote:

Now i want to listen all of you. What do you want in that web
framework(Easy use of Database, Easy use of XML, GUI Designer, etc...)?

Don't think that yet another Python web framework is really needed.
Why not? I know that some people are probably basking in the glory of
supposedly having their favourite framework recently blessed by the
BDFL, whilst others lament the almost unfair rejection of their own
framework on possibly dubious grounds by the very same person (thus
seeing their "winner takes all" strategy backfire totally), but open
source and various other network-effect movements benefit from lots of
people trying different things (the "scratch your own itch"
observation) rather than everyone gathering together for one big
strategy meeting.

Certainly, I'd recommend against anyone starting out on such a project
without having at least looked at the state of the Web frameworks scene
[1] and Python Web programming in general [2] (a resource which I've
recently updated in order to remove a degree of incoherency introduced
over the years), but apart from some Zope-based tools, I haven't seen
much GUI-designer-friendly stuff in the Python frameworks scene, for
example, nor does XML (in its widest W3C sense) seem to be
well-integrated into most frameworks (4Suite and some other less hyped
frameworks aside).

So it's not just a case of picking one of the more popular
frameworks-du-jour, especially since many of them seem to have their
own wheel-reinvention tendencies despite protests to the contrary.

Paul

[1] http://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworks
[2] http://wiki.python.org/moin/WebProgramming

Aug 21 '06 #3
Hello Everyone,

I've just read all of the answers. Most of yours said that there are
many web frameworks ,so it is nonsense to make a new web framework in
python.

Now I'm using and testing all of the frameworks in python also asp.net,
jsp and java servlet, perl web frameworks and ruby on rails. Some of
them have good positive points like that asp.net have gridviews to show
data records, ruby on rails have ajax support, etc...
The framework that i'll make, includes most of the positive points of
the other frameworks. Maybe, it's a mix of web frameworks. I want to
use dojo toolkit for javascript in my framework, and make a gui
designer like Visual Studio and Sun Creator, etc...

After that, may be you'll change your mind. And i want to listen your
advices. Please feel free to say everything to me about framework. I'm
waiting your answers.

Best Regards,

Emrah
Ankara/Turkey

Aug 21 '06 #4
Hello Emrah :)
I'd love to have a good framework with focus on static-content.
Something simple and useful like rest2web
(http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/rest2web/) that could parse some of
the many templates available and output nice (X)HTML+CSS. Bundle a
simple GUI and you have something very interesting.

hardemr wrote:
Maybe, it's a mix of web frameworks. I want to
use dojo toolkit for javascript in my framework, and make a gui
designer like Visual Studio and Sun Creator, etc...
How about skipping the framework and focusing on dojo + GUI? Choose a
target (templating + framework, or a couple of targets), build a Visual
Studio for AJAX and you'll be a hero. Hack wxScintilla and build
something with good template highlighting and WYSIWYG-ish preview and
you'll be very famous. Build a great framework and yours will be one of
the many ;)

Wishing you good luck,
Daniel

Aug 21 '06 #5
hardemr wrote:
I've just read all of the answers. Most of yours said that there are
many web frameworks ,so it is nonsense to make a new web framework in
python.
Hardemr, I like Ajacksu's answer, with a twist. Please concnentrate on
writing a Visual Studio-like gui designer, and make it possible to add
your Visual Studio like gui designer to Django (and TurboGears, et al).
Leverage the hard work of others and the installed base; add your
functionality on top. Don't re-create the wheel, build your internal
combustion engine powered vehicle on top of the 4 wheels that already
exist! ;-))

Please...

Ron Stephens

Aug 21 '06 #6
Ur**********@gm ail.com wrote:
hardemr wrote:
>I've just read all of the answers. Most of yours said that there are
many web frameworks ,so it is nonsense to make a new web framework in
python.

Hardemr, I like Ajacksu's answer, with a twist. Please concnentrate on
writing a Visual Studio-like gui designer, and make it possible to add
your Visual Studio like gui designer to Django (and TurboGears, et al).
it only make sense if you are disabled (visual or upper limb). most if
not all web frameworks are "no cripples need apply".

why? mixed caps, mixed modes (i.e. html+python), crappy editors to
start. these few items have such a *huge* impact that it can mean the
difference between being able to do the job or not. if you want to make
a diff, make an IDE that works for the blind and the mobility impaired.
the work has been started but it needs labor (see voicecoder project).
second place to make a difference is to build a bridge between windows
and gnome at-spi so one can speak (NaturallySpeak ing on windows) then
have the effect show up on linux.

but in the context of web frameworks, my hp friendly framework shows how
easy it is to make apps HP friendly. the framework is rtg except for
packaging (and some docs). (I'm having problems trying to understand
and speak the setup file at the same time.)

If you want specific examples handicap barriers, I'll tell you after my
new mic arrives and my hands stop hurting so much. my cost: this
message means 30-40 min timeout for the nerves to cool off.

--- eric

Aug 21 '06 #7
"Paul Boddie" <pa**@boddie.or g.ukwrote:
>Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch wrote:
>emrahayanogl u wrote:
>
Now i want to listen all of you. What do you want in that web
framework(Easy use of Database, Easy use of XML, GUI Designer, etc...)?

Don't think that yet another Python web framework is really needed.

Why not? I know that some people are probably basking in the glory of
supposedly having their favourite framework recently blessed by the
BDFL, whilst others lament the almost unfair rejection of their own
framework on possibly dubious grounds by the very same person (thus
seeing their "winner takes all" strategy backfire totally), but open
source and various other network-effect movements benefit from lots of
people trying different things (the "scratch your own itch"
observation) rather than everyone gathering together for one big
strategy meeting.
Ordinarily, I think the "do it yourself" nature of Python is a great thing,
and I would never try to dissuade someone from reinventing something
themselves. However, in the case of web frameworks, I believe Marc is
fundamentally correct: the web framework proliferation in Python is
actually doing the language a huge disservice.

Consider Ruby. If someone asks, "I'd like to do a web site with Ruby, what
should I use?", the answer comes back loud, clear, and unanimous: Ruby on
Rails. If someone asks, "I'd like to do a web site with Python, what
should I use?", she gets 25 different answers. "Look at HTMLGen, Cheetah,
WebWare, CherryPy, Karrigell, Django, Pylons, Plone, Zope, TurboGears,
etc., etc.", none of which are pre-installed in the typical Linux
distribution. To the non-programming decision maker, that kind of response
makes Python look unprofessional -- a toy.

Now, please do not send me ugly emails accusing me of running down Python.
I've been a Python believer since 1.52. I've done web sites in at least 5
of the frameworks, and I even wrote one of the wiki pages that compares web
frameworks. However, it is only the fact that I *AM* a true Python
believer that gave me the patience and incentive to try 5 different
frameworks. If a corporate decision maker were involved, that would never
happen. Python would simply fall off of the list of options, and the job
would get done in PHP or Ruby on Rails.

I agree with Marc. PLEASE do not create "yet another Python web
framework." Let's pick one, and join together to turn it into the One,
True, Unquestioned Web Solution.
--
- Tim Roberts, ti**@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.
Aug 22 '06 #8
Tim Roberts wrote:
>
Consider Ruby. If someone asks, "I'd like to do a web site with Ruby, what
should I use?", the answer comes back loud, clear, and unanimous: Ruby on
Rails.
I actually believe that people in most buzzword shortlist situations
see Rails as being the name in the list of candidates, not Ruby - it's
somewhat like Zope being in the list rather than Python, or
Struts/Tapestry/Apache-project-of-the-month being in the list rather
than Java (albeit with a fairly warm corporate feeling that Java is
there underneath).
If someone asks, "I'd like to do a web site with Python, what
should I use?", she gets 25 different answers. "Look at HTMLGen, Cheetah,
WebWare, CherryPy, Karrigell, Django, Pylons, Plone, Zope, TurboGears,
etc., etc.", none of which are pre-installed in the typical Linux
distribution. To the non-programming decision maker, that kind of response
makes Python look unprofessional -- a toy.
Indeed. That's why, after enumerating the uncontrollably expanding list
of solutions for a time [1], I wanted to concentrate on showing the
viable options with all their differentiating features in the Python
Web Frameworks Overview [2]. Ultimately, that content was moved to the
python.org Wiki [3] and everyone got their chance to hype their pet
project - it became like a random set of links. Sure, everyone wants
everyone else to see their work, but there's a role in the community
for objective education about the right tool for the job rather than
either graphically showing the little fish tear each other apart, or
jumping on the bandwagon with the most momentum and hyping it to the
exclusion of everything else. In the latter case, the end result is to
promote the big fish to the bigger pool (that stuff about Rails, Zope,
Struts & friends above), creating another generation of "agile
frameworks".

[...]
I agree with Marc. PLEASE do not create "yet another Python web
framework." Let's pick one, and join together to turn it into the One,
True, Unquestioned Web Solution.
Let's say we go for front-runner "du jour", Django. I've looked at
Django, and I'll admit that parts of the core API are fairly well done
when compared to certain other frameworks. However, let's say that we
want to "do it right" whilst expressing our dissatisfaction with the
templating, noting that when doing XML-oriented templating (that's
HTML, XHTML, XML and so on) I prefer something which upsets my Web page
editor less than it already is. So we unplug the templating somehow and
offer other options which plug into whatever magic that exists in
Django to make everything work smoothly. Let's say we unplug the
database abstraction layer because it doesn't do everything we want,
either, noting that I don't have any strong opinions about Django's
object-relational mapper, but I am wary of Web frameworks which
apparently encourage a database installation just for "hello world"
even if it isn't strictly required from a technical perspective.
Ultimately, we end up in a situation that is described far better in
the following article:

http://www.cmlenz.net/blog/2006/08/the_python_web_.html

In my opinion, what has damaged the Python Web frameworks scene has
been the continual hype and land-grabbing, the refusal to cede ground
on even the most basic stuff ("my magic form request variables are
better than yours", even though the majority of such magic solutions
are lacklustre at best), and that continual sighting of a grand prize
that at best gives you a ticket to Zopeworld - you get your own
"business ecosystem" while everyone else starts working on the next
thing to undo you.

I'd like to hear suggestions on how some cooperation can be encouraged
above the WSGI level, which despite the fanfare didn't really give so
many good answers to those confused users looking for a solution. As
I've said often enough before, the abstract "paper comparison" of Web
frameworks evolved into WebStack [4] which was originally an exercise
in seeing just how different many frameworks are at the lower levels:
the answer, given that you can paper over them in that way, is
"different only in unhelpful ways but not irreconcilably so". One day,
the Python Web frameworks scene may grow up and realise this fact.

Paul

[1]
http://web.archive.org/web/200410110...b_modules.html
[2] http://www.boddie.org.uk/python/web_frameworks.html
[3] http://wiki.python.org/moin/WebProgramming
[4] http://www.python.org/pypi/WebStack

Aug 22 '06 #9
Tim Roberts <ti**@probo.com wrote:
...
themselves. However, in the case of web frameworks, I believe Marc is
fundamentally correct: the web framework proliferation in Python is
actually doing the language a huge disservice.
Indeed, it has been truthfully observed that Python's the only language
with more web frameworks than keywords.

I have already suggested to the BDFL that he can remedy this situation
in Py3k: all he has to do, of course, is to add a LOT more keywords.
Alex
Aug 22 '06 #10

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