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Allowing zero-dimensional subscripts

Hello,

I discovered that I needed a small change to the Python grammar. I
would like to hear what you think about it.

In two lines:
Currently, the expression "x[]" is a syntax error.
I suggest that it will be evaluated like "x[()]", just as "x[a, b]" is
evaluated like "x[(a, b)]" right now.

In a few more words: Currently, an object can be subscripted by a few
elements, separated by commas. It is evaluated as if the object was
subscripted by a tuple containing those elements. I suggest that an
object will also be subscriptable with no elements at all, and it will
be evaluated as if the object was subscripted by an empty tuple.

It involves no backwards incompatibiliti es, since we are dealing with
the legalization of a currently illegal syntax.

It is consistent with the current syntax. Consider that these
identities currently hold:

x[i, j, k] <--> x[(i, j, k)]
x[i, j] <--> x[(i, j)]
x[i, ] <--> x[(i, )]
x[i] <--> x[(i)]

I suggest that the next identity will hold too:

x[] <--> x[()]

I need this in order to be able to refer to zero-dimensional arrays
nicely. In NumPy, you can have arrays with a different number of
dimensions. In order to refer to a value in a two-dimensional array,
you write a[i, j]. In order to refer to a value in a one-dimensional
array, you write a[i]. You can also have a zero-dimensional array,
which holds a single value (a scalar). To refer to its value, you
currently need to write a[()], which is unexpected - the user may not
even know that when he writes a[i, j] he constructs a tuple, so he
won't guess the a[()] syntax. If my suggestion is accepted, he will be
able to write a[] in order to refer to the value, as expected. It will
even work without changing the NumPy package at all!

In the normal use of NumPy, you usually don't encounter
zero-dimensional arrays. However, I'm designing another library for
managing multi-dimensional arrays of data. Its purpose is similiar to
that of a spreadsheet - analyze data and preserve the relations between
a source of a calculation and its destination. In such an environment
you may have a lot of multi-dimensional arrays - for example, the sales
of several products over several time periods. But you may also have a
lot of zero-dimensional arrays, that is, single values - for example,
the income tax. I want the access to the zero-dimensional arrays to be
consistent with the access to the multi-dimensional arrays. Just using
the name of the zero-dimensional array to obtain its value isn't going
to work - the array and the value it contains have to be distinguished.

I have tried to change CPython to support it, and it was fairly easy.
You can see the diff against the current SVN here:
http://python.pastebin.com/768317
The test suite passes without changes, as expected. I didn't include
diffs of autogenerated files. I know almost nothing about the AST, so I
would appreciate it if someone who is familiar with the AST will check
to see if I did it right. It does seem to work, though.

Well, what do you think about this?

Have a good day,
Noam Raphael

Jun 8 '06 #1
22 2277

<sp*******@gmai l.com> wrote in message
news:11******** *************@i 40g2000cwc.goog legroups.com...
Hello,

I discovered that I needed a small change to the Python grammar. I
would like to hear what you think about it.

In two lines:
Currently, the expression "x[]" is a syntax error.
I suggest that it will be evaluated like "x[()]", just as "x[a, b]" is
evaluated like "x[(a, b)]" right now.

In a few more words: Currently, an object can be subscripted by a few
elements, separated by commas. It is evaluated as if the object was
subscripted by a tuple containing those elements.
It is not 'as if'. 'a,b' *is* a tuple and the object *is* subcripted by a
tuple.
Adding () around the non-empty tuple adds nothing except a bit of noise.
dis(compile('x[a,b]','','eval')) 0 0 LOAD_NAME 0 (x)
3 LOAD_NAME 1 (a)
6 LOAD_NAME 2 (b)
9 BUILD_TUPLE 2
12 BINARY_SUBSCR
13 RETURN_VALUE dis(compile('x[(a,b)]','','eval'))

0 0 LOAD_NAME 0 (x)
3 LOAD_NAME 1 (a)
6 LOAD_NAME 2 (b)
9 BUILD_TUPLE 2
12 BINARY_SUBSCR
13 RETURN_VALUE

Parens around non-empty tuples are only needed for precedence grouping, the
same as in (a+b)*c.
I suggest that an
object will also be subscriptable with no elements at all, and it will
be evaluated as if the object was subscripted by an empty tuple.


Again, there would be no 'as if' about it. You are suggesting that the
parens around a tuple nothing be optional in this particular context.
While logically possible, Guido decided that tuple nothings should *always*
be distinguished from other nothings and set off from surrounding code by
parentheses. The reason is to avoid ambiguity and catch errors. I think
this is overall a good choice.

Terry Jan Reedy

Jun 8 '06 #2
Hello,

Terry Reedy wrote:
In a few more words: Currently, an object can be subscripted by a few
elements, separated by commas. It is evaluated as if the object was
subscripted by a tuple containing those elements.


It is not 'as if'. 'a,b' *is* a tuple and the object *is* subcripted by a
tuple.
Adding () around the non-empty tuple adds nothing except a bit of noise.


It doesn't necessarily matter, but technically, it is not "a tuple".
The "1, 2" in "x[1, 2]" isn't evaluated according to the same rules as
in "x = 1, 2" - for example, you can have "x[1, 2:3:4, ..., 5]", which
isn't a legal tuple outside of square braces - in fact, it even isn't
legal inside parens: "x[(1, 2:3:4, ..., 5)]" isn't legal syntax.

Noam

Jun 8 '06 #3

<sp*******@gmai l.com> wrote in message
news:11******** *************@f 6g2000cwb.googl egroups.com...
Terry Reedy wrote:
> In a few more words: Currently, an object can be subscripted by a few
> elements, separated by commas. It is evaluated as if the object was
> subscripted by a tuple containing those elements.
It is not 'as if'. 'a,b' *is* a tuple and the object *is* subcripted
by a
tuple.
Adding () around the non-empty tuple adds nothing except a bit of noise.


It doesn't necessarily matter, but technically, it is not "a tuple".


Tell that to the compiler. Here the code again.
dis(compile('x[a,b]','','eval')) 0 0 LOAD_NAME 0 (x)
3 LOAD_NAME 1 (a)
6 LOAD_NAME 2 (b)
9 BUILD_TUPLE 2
12 BINARY_SUBSCR
13 RETURN_VALUE dis(compile('x= a,b','','single ')) 1 0 LOAD_NAME 0 (a)
3 LOAD_NAME 1 (b)
6 BUILD_TUPLE 2
9 STORE_NAME 2 (x)
12 LOAD_CONST 0 (None)
15 RETURN_VALUE

The same exact code to build the tuple a,b.
The "1, 2" in "x[1, 2]" isn't evaluated according to the same rules as
in "x = 1, 2" dis(compile('x[1,2]','','eval')) 0 0 LOAD_NAME 0 (x)
3 LOAD_CONST 2 ((1, 2))
6 BINARY_SUBSCR
7 RETURN_VALUE dis(compile('x= 1,2','','single ')) 1 0 LOAD_CONST 3 ((1, 2))
3 STORE_NAME 0 (x)
6 LOAD_CONST 2 (None)
9 RETURN_VALUE

Same exact tuple literal. The tuple rules are the same.
- for example, you can have "x[1, 2:3:4, ..., 5]", which
isn't a legal tuple outside of square braces - in fact, it even isn't
legal inside parens: "x[(1, 2:3:4, ..., 5)]" isn't legal syntax.


Yes, slice and ellipsis literals are only valid directly inside brackets.
And it is definitely worth knowing about them and that this is one place
where a tuple cannot be parenthesized. But once they are accepted, the
slice and ellipsis objects are members of the resulting tuple like any
other.
dis(compile("x[1, 2:3:4, ..., 5]", '','eval'))

0 0 LOAD_NAME 0 (x)
3 LOAD_CONST 0 (1)
6 LOAD_CONST 1 (2)
9 LOAD_CONST 2 (3)
12 LOAD_CONST 3 (4)
15 BUILD_SLICE 3
18 LOAD_CONST 4 (Ellipsis)
21 LOAD_CONST 5 (5)
24 BUILD_TUPLE 4
27 BINARY_SUBSCR
28 RETURN_VALUE

So I do not see any point or usefulness in saying that a tuple subcript is
not what it is.

Terry Jan Reedy

Jun 9 '06 #4
Hello,

Terry Reedy wrote:
So I do not see any point or usefulness in saying that a tuple subcript is
not what it is.


I know that a tuple is *constructed*. The question is, is this,
conceptually, the feature that allows you to ommit the parentheses of a
tuple in some cases. If we see this as the same feature, it's
reasonable that "nothing" won't be seen as an empty tuple, just like "a
= " doesn't mean "a = ()".

However, if we see this as a different feature, which allows
multidimensiona l subscript by constructing a tuple behind the scenes,
constructing an empty tuple for x[] seems very reasonable to me. Since
in some cases you can't have the parentheses at all, I think that x[]
makes sense.

Noam

Jun 9 '06 #5
sp*******@gmail .com wrote:
Hello,

Terry Reedy wrote:
So I do not see any point or usefulness in saying that a tuple subcript is
not what it is.

I know that a tuple is *constructed*. The question is, is this,
conceptually, the feature that allows you to ommit the parentheses of a
tuple in some cases. If we see this as the same feature, it's
reasonable that "nothing" won't be seen as an empty tuple, just like "a
= " doesn't mean "a = ()".

However, if we see this as a different feature, which allows
multidimensiona l subscript by constructing a tuple behind the scenes,
constructing an empty tuple for x[] seems very reasonable to me. Since
in some cases you can't have the parentheses at all, I think that x[]
makes sense.

Hey, I have an idea, why don't we look at the language reference manual
instead of imagining how we think it might work!

In section 3.2 we find:
"""
Tuples
The items of a tuple are arbitrary Python objects. Tuples of two or more
items are formed by comma-separated lists of expressions. A tuple of one
item (a `singleton') can be formed by affixing a comma to an expression
(an expression by itself does not create a tuple, since parentheses must
be usable for grouping of expressions). An empty tuple can be formed by
an empty pair of parentheses.
"""

So it seems that your speculation is false. Section 2.6 specifically
defines "[" and "]" as delimiters. Section 5.3.2 defines a subscription
(a term I've not really grown to love, but what the heck) as

subscription ::= primary "[" expression_list "]"

and section 5.12, which defines expression_list , explicitly says

"""An expression list containing at least one comma yields a tuple.""".

So it would appear that while your change might be very convenient to
allow you to refer to scalar values as zero-dimensional arrays, it
doesn't really fit into Python's conceptual framework. Sorry.

One further point: if you really do conceptualize scalars as
zero-dimensional arrays, where is the value conceptually stored?

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com
Love me, love my blog http://holdenweb.blogspot.com
Recent Ramblings http://del.icio.us/steve.holden

Jun 9 '06 #6
sp*******@gmail .com wrote:
Well, what do you think about this?


-0 from me, but it's definitely a PEP-able proposal.

suggestion: turn your post into a pre-PEP and post it somewhere, post
the patch to the patch tracker, and post a brief heads-up to python-dev,
and see what happens.

(you probably have to do all that today if you want this to go into 2.5,
though...)

</F>

Jun 9 '06 #7

<sp*******@gmai l.com> wrote in message
news:11******** *************@f 6g2000cwb.googl egroups.com...
The question is, is this,
conceptually, the feature that allows you to ommit the parentheses of a
tuple in some cases.


To repeat: tuples are defined by commas. There are no 'parentheses of a
tuple', except for empty tuples, to be omitted. Consider: a+b is a sum; in
(a+b)*c, the sum is parenthesized to avoid confusion with a+b*c. Like
other expressions, tuples are parenthesezed when needed to avoid similar
confusion. So (1,2)+(3,4) needs parens because 1,2+3,4 would be something
different. In both examples, parens are used to reverse normal precedence
relations.

Terry Jan Reedy

Jun 9 '06 #8
Steve Holden wrote:
Hey, I have an idea, why don't we look at the language reference manual
instead of imagining how we think it might work!
I don't know. Sounds risky.

In section 3.2 we find:
"""
Tuples
The items of a tuple are arbitrary Python objects. Tuples of two or more
items are formed by comma-separated lists of expressions. A tuple of one
item (a `singleton') can be formed by affixing a comma to an expression
(an expression by itself does not create a tuple, since parentheses must
be usable for grouping of expressions). An empty tuple can be formed by
an empty pair of parentheses.
"""

So it seems that your speculation is false. Section 2.6 specifically
defines "[" and "]" as delimiters. Section 5.3.2 defines a subscription
(a term I've not really grown to love, but what the heck) as

subscription ::= primary "[" expression_list "]"

and section 5.12, which defines expression_list , explicitly says

"""An expression list containing at least one comma yields a tuple.""".

So it would appear that while your change might be very convenient to
allow you to refer to scalar values as zero-dimensional arrays, it
doesn't really fit into Python's conceptual framework. Sorry.
Yes, that would appear to be so. You would have a point... if the
documentation were correct. Only it's not.

According to the reference manual, the rule for an expression_list is:

expression_list ::= expression ( "," expression )* [","]

But take the following legal Python subscripted array:

a[1:2,...,3:4]

Is "1:2" an expression? How about "..."? When I enter 1:2 at the
Python prompt, I get a syntax error. The fact is, the documentation
here is either wrong or simplified or both. (I don't think it's a big
deal, actually: the real grammar has lots of complexity to handle
tricky cases that would needlessly complicate the reference manual for
a human reader.) So let's look at an excerpt the actual Python grammar
(from 2.4.3). You'll be happy to know subscription isn't used. :)

trailer: '(' [arglist] ')' | '[' subscriptlist ']' | '.' NAME
subscriptlist: subscript (',' subscript)* [',']
sliceop: ':' [test]
subscript: '.' '.' '.' | test | [test] ':' [test] [sliceop]
testlist: test (',' test)* [',']

Clearly, the grammar rule used for list subscript is different from the
one used for list of expressions (for some reason, what an ordinary
person would call an expression is called a "test" in the grammar,
whereas "expr" is a non-short-circuiting expression).

So there's a regular way to create non-empty tuples, and a subscript
way.

And there's a regular way to create an empty tuple... but not a
subscript way.

So I'd say this change fits the conceptual framework of the tuple quite
well; in fact, it makes subscript tuples more parallel to their regular
counterparts.

One further point: if you really do conceptualize scalars as
zero-dimensional arrays, where is the value conceptually stored?


Think of it this way: an array with n-dimensions of length 3 would have
3**n total entries. How many entries would a 0-dimensional array have?
3**0 == 1.

Numeric has had zero-dimensional arrays for a long time, and has had no
problem storing them. Think of the rule for accessing an element of an
array: it's a base pointer + sum (indices*stride ) for all indices. Now
generalize it down to zero: there are no indices, so the scalar is
stored at the base pointer.
Carl Banks

Jun 9 '06 #9
Carl Banks wrote:
Steve Holden wrote:
Hey, I have an idea, why don't we look at the language reference manual
instead of imagining how we think it might work!

I don't know. Sounds risky.
In section 3.2 we find:
"""
Tuples
The items of a tuple are arbitrary Python objects. Tuples of two or more
items are formed by comma-separated lists of expressions. A tuple of one
item (a `singleton') can be formed by affixing a comma to an expression
(an expression by itself does not create a tuple, since parentheses must
be usable for grouping of expressions). An empty tuple can be formed by
an empty pair of parentheses.
"""

So it seems that your speculation is false. Section 2.6 specifically
defines "[" and "]" as delimiters. Section 5.3.2 defines a subscription
(a term I've not really grown to love, but what the heck) as

subscriptio n ::= primary "[" expression_list "]"

and section 5.12, which defines expression_list , explicitly says

"""An expression list containing at least one comma yields a tuple.""".

So it would appear that while your change might be very convenient to
allow you to refer to scalar values as zero-dimensional arrays, it
doesn't really fit into Python's conceptual framework. Sorry.

Yes, that would appear to be so. You would have a point... if the
documentation were correct. Only it's not.

According to the reference manual, the rule for an expression_list is:

expression_list ::= expression ( "," expression )* [","]

But take the following legal Python subscripted array:

a[1:2,...,3:4]

But the element inside the brackets there isn't an expression-list,
it's a slicing (see section 5.3.2).
Is "1:2" an expression? How about "..."? When I enter 1:2 at the
1:2 is a short slice.

.... is an ellipsis.

Neither of these elements are allowed in non-subscripting contexts.
Python prompt, I get a syntax error. The fact is, the documentation
here is either wrong or simplified or both. (I don't think it's a big
deal, actually: the real grammar has lots of complexity to handle
tricky cases that would needlessly complicate the reference manual for
a human reader.) So let's look at an excerpt the actual Python grammar
(from 2.4.3). You'll be happy to know subscription isn't used. :)

trailer: '(' [arglist] ')' | '[' subscriptlist ']' | '.' NAME
subscriptlist: subscript (',' subscript)* [',']
sliceop: ':' [test]
subscript: '.' '.' '.' | test | [test] ':' [test] [sliceop]
testlist: test (',' test)* [',']
The simplification of the grammar is explicitly documented:

"""
Rather than further complicating the syntax, this is disambiguated by
defining that in this case the interpretation as a subscription takes
priority over the interpretation as a slicing (this is the case if the
slice list contains no proper slice nor ellipses). Similarly, when the
slice list has exactly one short slice and no trailing comma, the
interpretation as a simple slicing takes priority over that as an
extended slicing.
"""
Clearly, the grammar rule used for list subscript is different from the
one used for list of expressions (for some reason, what an ordinary
person would call an expression is called a "test" in the grammar,
whereas "expr" is a non-short-circuiting expression).

So there's a regular way to create non-empty tuples, and a subscript
way.

And there's a regular way to create an empty tuple... but not a
subscript way.

So I'd say this change fits the conceptual framework of the tuple quite
well; in fact, it makes subscript tuples more parallel to their regular
counterparts.
Although this debate is beginning to make me sound like one, I am really
not a language lawyer. However, I should point out that what you are
describing as a "tuple" should more correctly be described as a
"slice-list" once you include slices or an ellipsis as elements.
Slicings are described, as I am fairly sure you know, in section 5.3.3.
One further point: if you really do conceptualize scalars as
zero-dimensional arrays, where is the value conceptually stored?

Think of it this way: an array with n-dimensions of length 3 would have
3**n total entries. How many entries would a 0-dimensional array have?
3**0 == 1.

Numeric has had zero-dimensional arrays for a long time, and has had no
problem storing them. Think of the rule for accessing an element of an
array: it's a base pointer + sum (indices*stride ) for all indices. Now
generalize it down to zero: there are no indices, so the scalar is
stored at the base pointer.

I can see that, and it doesn't seem unreasonable. Fortunately your
persistence has goaded me into determining the point that *did* seem
unreasonable to me: you were falsely trying to equate slicings and tuples.

Having said all of which, there probably *is* a case for proposing that
an empty slicing become syntactically acceptable, so why not write the
PEP and go for it?

But be quick: feature freeze for 2.5b1 looms ...

regards
Steve
--
Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119
Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com
Love me, love my blog http://holdenweb.blogspot.com
Recent Ramblings http://del.icio.us/steve.holden

Jun 9 '06 #10

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