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MS VC++ Toolkit 2003, where?

So, I thought I'd tool up to let me build and test Python extensions on
Windows (as well as Mac and Linux) -- I'm trying out Parallels
Workstation beta on my new Macbook Pro (and so far it seems to work very
well), I bought and installed a Win2000 Pro on it (since according to
the grapevine it works better than XP in various kinds of virtual
machines, and almost all SW supports w2k anyway -- I also found out that
one exception is the Google Pack, which does require XP), did all the
upgrades (why MS forces you to do 8+ rounds of download-install, from an
off-the-CD win2k SP2 to a fully upgraded win2k SP4, rather than offering
a single-round option, I just don't undersand!), got Python 2.4.3 --
phew, so far so good.

So, I go to <http://www.vrplumber.c om/programming/mstoolkit/> and start
following the instructions, beginning with the download of Visual C++
Toolkit 2003... oops! I can't find that download any more at
<http://msdn.microsoft. com/visualc/vctoolkit2003/> -- instead, what's at
that URL is a page explaining that
"""
The Visual C++ Toolkit 2003 has been replaced by Visual C++ 2005 Express
Edition.
"""

Hmmm -- I can't build extensions for the standard build of Python 2.4.3
with VC++ 2005, can I? Express or other, they just use separate and
incompatible C-runtime libraries, I believe.

So -- does anybody know if the 2003-level Toolkit is STILL available for
download somewhere, or can suggest other (legal;-) ways in which I can
build and test Python extensions (with an optimizing compiler --
NON-optimizing ones are right out;-) w/o shelling out beeg moolah to MS?
So far my total investment is about $100 ($40 for Parallels Workstation,
which I preordered after briefly checking out the free-for-1-month beta,
since it worked so well; $60 for the cheapest legal CD+license of w2k I
could find around) -- and I'm not complaining, since the current setup
will still let me TEST many diverse things on Windows; to gain the
further ability of *compiling* Python extensions, I'm not averse to
spending a little more if needed, but certainly not as much as another
$100 (I do prefer free to cheap, but for example the $40 Parallels
product is well worth the money, to me, compared to the free 'Q',
because the latter, while fun to hack around with, was absorbing
countless hours of my time in many attempts to get everything working,
while Parallels essentially "just worked" and saved me LOTS of time).
Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Just to show that I'm an
oldstyle Usenet dynosaur: suggestions in private mail are also welcome
(but my real mailbox these days is at gmail, not as yahoo as the 'From'
header above says), and I will undertake to summarize and post any
suggestions thus received (unless the suggestions' authors request me to
not repost).
Alex
Apr 23 '06 #1
36 3445
Alex Martelli wrote:
So -- does anybody know if the 2003-level Toolkit is STILL available for
download somewhere...


http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en

Apr 23 '06 #2
David Rushby <Da*********@gm ail.com> wrote:
Alex Martelli wrote:
So -- does anybody know if the 2003-level Toolkit is STILL available for
download somewhere...

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...272BE09D-40BB-
49FD-9CB0-4BFA122FA91B&di splaylang=en


Great, thanks, just what I was looking for!!!
Alex
Apr 23 '06 #3
AIM
The site comes back with a message saying ...

"The download you requested is unavailable. If you continue to see this
message when trying to access this download, go to the "Search for a
Download" area on the Download Center home page."

Does anyone have any other ideas of where to look?

Apr 24 '06 #4
AIM <An***********@ Hotmail.com> wrote:
The site comes back with a message saying ...

"The download you requested is unavailable. If you continue to see this
message when trying to access this download, go to the "Search for a
Download" area on the Download Center home page."

Does anyone have any other ideas of where to look?


As suggested to me by David Rushby 10 hours ago,

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...72BE09D-40BB-4
9FD-9CB0-4BFA122FA91B&di splaylang=en

does work.

But, there's another problem -- helloworld.c compiles fine, but linking
doesn't find MSVCRT.LIB -- apparently, the 2.0 .NET Framework SDK does
NOT include this file for x86 (there _are_ a couple of versions under
a64 and some other parallel directory, but I doubt they're good to use
with an x86!-). As the already-quoted crucial URL
<http://www.vrplumber.c om/programming/mstoolkit/> mentions:

"""
# .NET Framework SDK Version 1.1

Provides the core msvcrt.lib for msvcr71.dll against which to link
your extensions. This is critically important, as without it you are
going to wind up linking against the wrong run-time and will see crashes
whenever a core object such as a file is shared across run-time
barriers.

The 2.0 beta also works according to reports, and may be required
to build Numpy 23.6 (whereas 23.1 seems to work without it).
"""

Whether the 2.0 beta also worked, the current definitive 2.0 seems NOT
to work.

Can anybody suggest where to get a Framework SDK 1.1., or any other
legal way to get "the core msvcrt.lib for msvcr71.dll against which to
link your extensions. This is critically important"...?? ?
And, as an aside...:

It's sure an interesting reflection, that impecunious or thrifty
developers (ones not willing to shell out mucho $$$ to MS for a pro VS
2003) must go through such gyrations as these in order to be able to
build Python extensions on Windows. I'm sure my Windows-loving
colleagues in the PSF (who got several free copies of VS 2003 from
Microsoft, I believe -- at the time, I had zero Windows installations
and zero interest in Windows, so I didn't sign up for one) have fully
considered this recurring drama, and come to the decision of sticking
with VS 2003 (avoiding any free-as-in-beer compilers such as VS 2005 or
mingw) with thorough and wise deliberation.

The optimizer in the C compiler used to build Python in Windows *IS*
impressive: just today, I ran (and posted to it.comp.macinto sh) pybench
on Python 2.4.3 on iBook G4 12", Macbook Pro 2.0 GHz, and Parallels
Workstation VM with Win2000 on the same Macbook -- while the Macbook is
4 times as fast as the iBook, the Windows version, despite the slight
overhead of running under Parallels' virtualization, is an impressive
12%+ _faster_ than the "native" MacOSX Python 2.4.3 (I'm not quite sure
about how good Parallels' virtualization IS, but even if it's as
impressive as a mere 3% overhead, this still means that the Windows
version of Python on identical HW must be at least 15% faster than the
MacOSX version, compiled with gcc).

I can see the stance that such a speedup warrants using Microsoft's
costly VS 2003 and imposing endless gyrations on developers trying to
get it on the cheap -- being one of the latter developers, I'm inclined
nevertheless to grumble, right now, of course;-)...
Alex
Apr 24 '06 #5
Alex Martelli wrote:
the Windows version, despite the slight
overhead of running under Parallels' virtualization, is an impressive
12%+ _faster_ than the "native" MacOSX Python 2.4.3 (I'm not quite sure
about how good Parallels' virtualization IS, but even if it's as
impressive as a mere 3% overhead, this still means that the Windows
version of Python on identical HW must be at least 15% faster than the
MacOSX version, compiled with gcc).


Can you post the complete benchmark results from both systems on the
Macbook? My understanding is that virtualization overhead is not a
constant factor like 3%. Unprivileged instructions run unmodified; only
privileged instructions like hardware accesses get trapped, adding
overhead. Any percentage figure advertised by the manufacturer is most
likely an average over some data set with both types of instructions.

The types of tests mentioned on the pybench site -- function calls,
lookups, exceptions, etc -- shouldn't incur any overhead from
virtualization. It would be helpful to see exactly which tests were faster
and by how much instead of an overall average result.

The differences may be due to factors other than compiler optimizations.
I've heard for instance the OS X virtual memory manager is not particularly
speedy for large data sets. That could give the windows pybench a win on
certain tests regardless of which compiler has better optimizations.

Then you've got issues of whether the compilers are really competing on
equal footing. Were similar options enabled for each build, does each
build represent the best possible optimizations or only the ones the
builder knew about, etc. I think Apple switched to the Intel compiler for
x86 macs, was python built with that or with gcc?

In short, your results are interesting but I'm not sure what to make of
them yet.
Apr 24 '06 #6
Edward Elliott wrote:
I think Apple switched to the Intel compiler for
x86 macs, was python built with that or with gcc?


I'm pretty sure MacTel OS X still uses gcc 4 (although I think there is a beta
version of the Intel compiler available). All of the Python builds floating
around for it certainly use gcc.

--
Robert Kern
ro*********@gma il.com

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
an underlying truth."
-- Umberto Eco

Apr 24 '06 #7
Alex Martelli wrote:
Can anybody suggest where to get a Framework SDK 1.1., or any other
legal way to get "the core msvcrt.lib for msvcr71.dll against which to
link your extensions. This is critically important"...?? ?
From

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en
I'm sure my Windows-loving
colleagues in the PSF (who got several free copies of VS 2003 from
Microsoft, I believe -- at the time, I had zero Windows installations
and zero interest in Windows, so I didn't sign up for one) have fully
considered this recurring drama, and come to the decision of sticking
with VS 2003 (avoiding any free-as-in-beer compilers such as VS 2005 or
mingw) with thorough and wise deliberation.


Not sure whether this mark was meant to be sarcastic: but why you don't
want to use mingw to build extensions on Windows, I cannot understand.

Regards,
Martin
Apr 24 '06 #8
Alex Martelli wrote:
As suggested to me by David Rushby 10 hours ago,

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...72BE09D-40BB-4
9FD-9CB0-4BFA122FA91B&di splaylang=en

does work.


Can you please try this again: I'm also getting the error message
that AIM is getting.

Regards,
Martin
Apr 24 '06 #9
JW
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 21:15:23 -0700, Alex Martelli wrote:
As suggested to me by David Rushby 10 hours ago,

... < huge URL snipped > ...
Alas, somehow this URL was split in two, and all the kings horses and all
the kings men can't seem to put it back together again (at least in my
browser). Could someone post a tinyurl?
And, as an aside...:

[Those] not willing to shell out mucho $$$ to MS for a pro VS
2003) must go through such gyrations as these in order to be able to
build Python extensions on Windows. I'm sure my Windows-loving
colleagues in the PSF (who got several free copies of VS 2003 from
Microsoft, I believe -- at the time, I had zero Windows installations
and zero interest in Windows, so I didn't sign up for one) have fully
considered this recurring drama, and come to the decision of sticking
with VS 2003 (avoiding any free-as-in-beer compilers such as VS 2005 or
mingw) with thorough and wise deliberation.


Well, so long as there's a way to get the requisite tools. I'm sure
these Windows-loving colleagues confirmed these "free" tools worked under
WINE, else how would us cheap programmers with Windows-less boxes avoid
sending $$$ to the Great Satan?

Jim Wilson
Gainesville, FL
Apr 24 '06 #10

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