473,723 Members | 2,211 Online
Bytes | Software Development & Data Engineering Community
+ Post

Home Posts Topics Members FAQ

Alternative decorator syntax - POLL RESULTS SO FAR - ARE WE DONE?

Well, after 3 days of open polling, the number of additional votes have
dropped off pretty dramatically. Here are the results so far:

Total voters: 55 (with 3 votes each)
Votes for each choice or group of choices:
Any J 81
J2 78
Any C 40
C1 29
Any D 9
C2 8
D2 6
F 6
L 5
Any E 5
A1 4
H 4
K 4
Any A 4
B 3
D1 3
E1 3
C3 2
I 2
J1 2
C4 1
E2 1
E4 1
J3 1
M 1
A2 0
E3 0
G 0
J4 0

This would put J2 and C1 as the clear favorites among those who voted, with
J2 between 2:1 and 3:1 more strongly favored. Of all of the votes cast, J2
received 48%, C1 received 18%. No other option received more than 10% of
any votes.

However, the multivote format gives us some additional information, over
conventional "one-person-one-vote" format. Of the 55 voters, 75% cast at
least one vote for J2, while only 35% cast one or more votes for C1. From
the standpoint of building concensus, I find this statistic more compelling
than the raw vote count. It tells me that 3/4 of the voting sample are at
least open to the option presented by J2, so that developing community
acceptance is more likely to happen more quickly with J2 than with C1.

I believe that Anthony Baxter's read of Guido's intentions on what happens
next are fairly accurate (Anthony has been very active on python-dev and in
private e-mails on this subject, and I'm sure his view is more than most of
us here on c.l.py) - I think Guido has challenged us to rally around *one*
alternative to the current @ syntax, and from this poll, I think J2 is our
collective best bet. I do *not* think that Guido plans to have a run-off
between the chosen alternative and the @ syntax, nor that he would give much
credence to one if it were held - remember what the D in BDFL stands for.
But I think he *will* be pleased that among the babel of syntax proposals
that have been put forward, this fairly unstructured and unorganized group
will have come to closure and met his challenge, and settled on *one*
alternative option. I believe that Robert Brewer's technical discussion and
Michael Sparks' implementation will at least cause him to seriously consider
our concensus choice as a viable alternative to the @ syntax.

I'm sure that there are many asking if 55 is a sufficient sample for
determining the wishes of the Python community. I have no response other
than to say that this poll was posted on an open Usenet forum, and that it
quickly gathered a breadth of responses (despite the fact that many people
are just tired of talking and reading about decorators), and that the
response rate noe looks to be dropping off. I am skeptical that additional
time will significantly change the results. And I'm not sure what other
measures to take to obtain further responses. If there are other forums for
eliciting these inputs, I would have hoped that those who follow c.l.py
would have already contacted them for their participation.

So I would like to propose that we collectively move forward with J2 as our
selected alternative. I would say that those who proposed other
alternatives are not "the losers" in this, that they put valued thought and
discussion into this overall topic. In fact, the J2 proposal evolved over
the past several months, and I believe this is in part due to the influence
of concepts put forth in other proposals. I believe that both C1 and J2 are
clear, Pythonic, and pleasing to the eye, but in the interests of moving
forward, we need to focus our efforts in a single direction from here on.
If we continue to promote our other various favorites, I think it's fairly
certain that we will all be typing @ characters after release 2.4 comes out.

Please start giving some thought to what the 'decorate' keyword should be.
If we can get/keep this selection to a manageable list, then we should have
another multivote some time next week.

-- Paul


Jul 18 '05 #1
28 2388
"Paul McGuire" <pt***@austin.r r._bogus_.com> writes:
Please start giving some thought to what the 'decorate' keyword should be.


Looks like "declare" to me ;-)
Jul 18 '05 #2
>
Please start giving some thought to what the 'decorate' keyword should be.
If we can get/keep this selection to a manageable list, then we should have
another multivote some time next week.

-- Paul

How about 'predef'?

--Nick
Jul 18 '05 #3
On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 02:53:09 +0000, Paul McGuire wrote:
Please start giving some thought to what the 'decorate' keyword should be.
If we can get/keep this selection to a manageable list, then we should have
another multivote some time next week.


If you are still open to lurkers suggestions, I'm partial to syntax that
can be read like common language (this is one reason why I like Python and
I mildly dislike the @ sintax). Therefore I would like to suggest
to use in J2 keywords like 'using' or 'with', which also hint to the fact
that this is only the first part of a declaration suite that will be
continued by the 'def' statement.

Ciao
-------
FB

Jul 18 '05 #4


Some morphological images suggest me "through" can be a keyword as it
hide the verb filter which can be a little more general then others.
Anyway using a verb or a noun doesn't suggest the orthogonality of the
piece,so please consider adverbs as clever candidates.

Paolino
Jul 18 '05 #5

"Paul McGuire" <pt***@austin.r r._bogus_.com> wrote in message
news:pU******** *********@fe1.t exas.rr.com...
Well, after 3 days of open polling, the number of additional votes have
dropped off pretty dramatically. Here are the results so far:

Total voters: 55 (with 3 votes each)
Now that I've had a chance to look at the syntax, you can count
me mildly in favor of J2. (I haven't voted yet.) It's an extra line,
but I think the explicitness outweighs the vertical space it
takes up.

The keyword is fine even though it will almost certainly require
a future statement for 2.4.

John Roth


Jul 18 '05 #6
John Roth wrote:
Now that I've had a chance to look at the syntax, you can count
me mildly in favor of J2. (I haven't voted yet.) It's an extra line,
but I think the explicitness outweighs the vertical space it
takes up.


Although I'm not sure it was implemented this way, I
believe there may be an intent to support the usual
sort of one-line version as this (using an alternate
keyword instead of "decorate" which now seems doomed):

using: staticmethod
def foo(bar, baz):
pass

That makes it no extra lines, but still explicit and Pythonic
in nature.

(Michael, was that how you implemented the latest?)

-Peter
Jul 18 '05 #7
Paul McGuire wrote:
Total voters: 55
Of all of the votes cast, J2
received 48%, C1 received 18%. No other option received more than 10% of
any votes.


I vote 3 times for C1. So just my one vote raises C1 to 20%. I think
you need to do an online poll so you get more people than just those who
have been discussing the decorator keyword here this past week. I got
over 250 votes for C1 just last week vs. the 22 who voted for J2 here.
During this 2nd poll people were confused about whether they could vote
for A1 or not, and some people said many of the options on the wiki page
were not allowed anymore.

Just make a poll with J2 vs. C1 and see what you find.
Jul 18 '05 #8
"Paolo Veronelli" <pa************ *@yahoo.it> wrote in message
news:ma******** *************** *************** @python.org...


Some morphological images suggest me "through" can be a keyword as it
hide the verb filter which can be a little more general then others.
Anyway using a verb or a noun doesn't suggest the orthogonality of the
piece,so please consider adverbs as clever candidates.

Paolino


I always thought "through" was a preposition. So I googled for lists of
prepositions, and found these other candidates (they are also shorter):

per
via

-- Paul
Jul 18 '05 #9
On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 08:07:53 -0500, Doug Holton <in****@spam.he re>
wrote:
Paul McGuire wrote:
Total voters: 55
Of all of the votes cast, J2
received 48%, C1 received 18%. No other option received more than 10% of
any votes.


I vote 3 times for C1. So just my one vote raises C1 to 20%. I think
you need to do an online poll so you get more people than just those who
have been discussing the decorator keyword here this past week. I got
over 250 votes for C1 just last week vs. the 22 who voted for J2 here.
During this 2nd poll people were confused about whether they could vote
for A1 or not, and some people said many of the options on the wiki page
were not allowed anymore.


I think it should also be noted in the report of the voting results
that the a vote for "no new syntax at this time" was specifically
outlawed.

As a side point:

It seems ironic to me that in a group devoted to an appreciation of
Python, and its advocacy - it is often those who reject the notion
that the language has the kinds of glaring weaknesses that require
some fundamental change ot it, that form the opposition to an
"establishm ent" that has become convinced quite otherwise.

I sometimes wish those folks were more candid about its deficiencies
before I started my study of it back in 1.5.2 days.

Art
Jul 18 '05 #10

This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion.

Similar topics

17
1925
by: Istvan Albert | last post by:
Paul McGuire wrote: > Please reconsider the "def f() :" construct. Instead of > invoking a special punctuation character, it uses context and placement, > with familiar old 's, to infuse the declaration of a function with special > characteristics. If this causes def lines to run longer than one line, > perhaps the same rule that allows an unmatched "(" to carry over multiple > lines without requiring "\" continuation markers could be...
24
2062
by: Steven Bethard | last post by:
I think one of the biggest reasons we're having such problems coming to any agreement on decorator syntax is that each proposal makes a number of syntax decisions, not just one. For decorators, I see the following decisions that must be made: 1) Indicator Proposals differ on how some sort of indicator of "decoratorhood" is use. These include: * none (e.g. just the list, as in the "list-after-def" suggestion) * the '@' character
7
1586
by: Steven Bethard | last post by:
So here's the state of the decorator debate as I see it: *** Location GvR pretty strongly wants decorators before the function: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047112.html http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-August/047279.html
17
1987
by: Doug Holton | last post by:
George W Bush, as certified by Florida's election commission. Which decorator syntax do you like the most? See http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/PythonDecoratorsPoll A. @classmethod def foo(): (82) 14% C1. def foo() : (235) 41% E1. def foo(): @classmethod (260) 45% Total Votes: 577
12
1536
by: Steven Bethard | last post by:
The poll, as stated, asked voters to vote for the syntax suggestion they liked the /most/. Some of the conclusions people are trying to draw from it are what syntaxes people liked the /least/. This is probably not the right conclusion to be drawing from the poll that was given. It is, however, the kind of conclusion I think we'd like to draw. I'm not sure we're going to agree fully on a single "best" proposal, but it would help to...
99
4646
by: Paul McGuire | last post by:
There are a number of messages on the python-dev mail list that indicate that Guido is looking for some concensus to come from this list as to what *one* alternative syntax for decorators we would like him to consider in place of the @ syntax that is currently in 2.4a2. I think special thanks are due to: - Anthony Baxter for his continuing efforts in this regard - Steven Bethard for some of the clearest thinking and writing on this topic...
0
8868
marktang
by: marktang | last post by:
ONU (Optical Network Unit) is one of the key components for providing high-speed Internet services. Its primary function is to act as an endpoint device located at the user's premises. However, people are often confused as to whether an ONU can Work As a Router. In this blog post, we’ll explore What is ONU, What Is Router, ONU & Router’s main usage, and What is the difference between ONU and Router. Let’s take a closer look ! Part I. Meaning of...
0
8741
by: Hystou | last post by:
Most computers default to English, but sometimes we require a different language, especially when relocating. Forgot to request a specific language before your computer shipped? No problem! You can effortlessly switch the default language on Windows 10 without reinstalling. I'll walk you through it. First, let's disable language synchronization. With a Microsoft account, language settings sync across devices. To prevent any complications,...
0
9388
Oralloy
by: Oralloy | last post by:
Hello folks, I am unable to find appropriate documentation on the type promotion of bit-fields when using the generalised comparison operator "<=>". The problem is that using the GNU compilers, it seems that the internal comparison operator "<=>" tries to promote arguments from unsigned to signed. This is as boiled down as I can make it. Here is my compilation command: g++-12 -std=c++20 -Wnarrowing bit_field.cpp Here is the code in...
0
9241
jinu1996
by: jinu1996 | last post by:
In today's digital age, having a compelling online presence is paramount for businesses aiming to thrive in a competitive landscape. At the heart of this digital strategy lies an intricately woven tapestry of website design and digital marketing. It's not merely about having a website; it's about crafting an immersive digital experience that captivates audiences and drives business growth. The Art of Business Website Design Your website is...
1
9160
by: Hystou | last post by:
Overview: Windows 11 and 10 have less user interface control over operating system update behaviour than previous versions of Windows. In Windows 11 and 10, there is no way to turn off the Windows Update option using the Control Panel or Settings app; it automatically checks for updates and installs any it finds, whether you like it or not. For most users, this new feature is actually very convenient. If you want to control the update process,...
0
9090
tracyyun
by: tracyyun | last post by:
Dear forum friends, With the development of smart home technology, a variety of wireless communication protocols have appeared on the market, such as Zigbee, Z-Wave, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc. Each protocol has its own unique characteristics and advantages, but as a user who is planning to build a smart home system, I am a bit confused by the choice of these technologies. I'm particularly interested in Zigbee because I've heard it does some...
0
8062
agi2029
by: agi2029 | last post by:
Let's talk about the concept of autonomous AI software engineers and no-code agents. These AIs are designed to manage the entire lifecycle of a software development project—planning, coding, testing, and deployment—without human intervention. Imagine an AI that can take a project description, break it down, write the code, debug it, and then launch it, all on its own.... Now, this would greatly impact the work of software developers. The idea...
0
5996
by: conductexam | last post by:
I have .net C# application in which I am extracting data from word file and save it in database particularly. To store word all data as it is I am converting the whole word file firstly in HTML and then checking html paragraph one by one. At the time of converting from word file to html my equations which are in the word document file was convert into image. Globals.ThisAddIn.Application.ActiveDocument.Select();...
0
4764
by: adsilva | last post by:
A Windows Forms form does not have the event Unload, like VB6. What one acts like?

By using Bytes.com and it's services, you agree to our Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.

To disable or enable advertisements and analytics tracking please visit the manage ads & tracking page.