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Postgress and MYSQL

P: n/a
To whom it may concern:

I find the recent articles in various trade publications a little
disturbing due to the lack of PostgrSQL mention. I continue to see
articles about how IBM may be considering MYSQL for development an
open_source web database.

Why isn't PostgreSQL being considered or talked about by major industry
giants? As a DBA I know that Postgres is far superior to MYSQL but if
the industry directs it's energies towards open-source database this
coming year I think somehow PostgreSQL needs to be represented better.
Bob Powell
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Nov 22 '05 #1
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P: n/a
Bob Powell said:
I continue to see articles about how IBM may be considering MYSQL for
development an open_source web database.


Why would IBM use and promote postgres when it is much closer an offering
to DB2 than MySQL, and a much bigger commercial threat?

I'll bet that IBM will be planning on a nice migration path from the
open-source-web-db to DB2...

John Sidney-Woollett

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Nov 22 '05 #2

P: n/a
"Bob Powell" <Bo*@hotchkiss.org> writes:
I find the recent articles in various trade publications a little
disturbing due to the lack of PostgrSQL mention.


You are seeing the effects of MySQL AB's large marketing budget;
they have the time and money to cause such articles to appear.
I'm not sure there is much we can do to counter this in the short run.
(I do wonder how quickly they are running through that $19 mil
investment though ...)

regards, tom lane

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Nov 22 '05 #3

P: n/a
>>>>> "Tom" == Tom Lane <tg*@sss.pgh.pa.us> writes:

Tom> "Bob Powell" <Bo*@hotchkiss.org> writes:
I find the recent articles in various trade publications a little
disturbing due to the lack of PostgrSQL mention.


Tom> You are seeing the effects of MySQL AB's large marketing budget;
Tom> they have the time and money to cause such articles to appear.
Tom> I'm not sure there is much we can do to counter this in the short run.
Tom> (I do wonder how quickly they are running through that $19 mil
Tom> investment though ...)

My new buzz-meme (pass it along)...

"You're still using MySQL... that's sooooo 90's!"

:-)

Seriously, the space occupied by MySQL has been encroached by SQLite
from the low end (if you just want SQL access to a data file,
including transactions) and PostgreSQL from the high end (when you
want a full-featured database). I think they've completely overlapped
at this point (especially when I just discovered yesterday that you
can register Perl callbacks for user-defined functions and aggregates
in DBD::SQLite!), so MySQL really doesn't have much of a win at either
end.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<me****@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
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Nov 22 '05 #4

P: n/a
On Tue, 13 Jan 2004, Tom Lane wrote:
"Bob Powell" <Bo*@hotchkiss.org> writes:
I find the recent articles in various trade publications a little
disturbing due to the lack of PostgrSQL mention.


You are seeing the effects of MySQL AB's large marketing budget;
they have the time and money to cause such articles to appear.
I'm not sure there is much we can do to counter this in the short run.
(I do wonder how quickly they are running through that $19 mil
investment though ...)


Let's see if they can beat GB? *evil grin*
----
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Nov 22 '05 #5

P: n/a
(I do wonder how quickly they are running through that $19 mil
investment though ...)
Let's see if they can beat GB? *evil grin*

I seriously doubt they will be a GB... MySQL is at least making money
(probably not profit though).
They have a huge, loyal following and presumably a decent size customer
base.

GB had none of this.

MySQL will probably be around a long, long time.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

----
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Email: sc*****@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

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Nov 22 '05 #6

P: n/a
After a long battle with technology, Bo*@hotchkiss.org ("Bob Powell"), an earthling, wrote:
To whom it may concern:

I find the recent articles in various trade publications a little
disturbing due to the lack of PostgrSQL mention. I continue to see
articles about how IBM may be considering MYSQL for development an
open_source web database.

Why isn't PostgreSQL being considered or talked about by major industry
giants? As a DBA I know that Postgres is far superior to MYSQL but if
the industry directs it's energies towards open-source database this
coming year I think somehow PostgreSQL needs to be represented better.


For IBM, in particular, it would be hugely counterproductive to point
people to something that might take away from the sales of their own
products. After all, they bought Informix and Universe, and developed
DB/2. There's presumably some money in the latter.

Furthermore, there's presumably some money in getting people to adopt
a product that has rudimentary support for what they need, and then,
when scalability proves troublesome, migrate them to DB/2.

Mind you, as the recent changes to the licensing and marketing of
MySQL AB get better known, it is also possible that IBM would
(correctly) perceive them as competition (irrespective of technical
merits), and either demand money for promoting the product, or cease
promoting it.
--
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http://cbbrowne.com/info/nonrdbms.html
"very few people approach me in real life and insist on proving they
are drooling idiots." -- Erik Naggum, comp.lang.lisp
Nov 22 '05 #7

P: n/a
Hello Bob!
Everybody knows that PostgreSQL is better than MySQL and supports more
features etc. But remember - the main issue of database systems now is
web that is being build mainly by students that do not even know what
database engines are made for. At least here (My second job is
Instructor in Unix/Linux/etc.) and i know that the main thing that is
required by students is Linux with apache and MySQL. And the strange
thing - students are always starting learning from Network
Administration or Linux in Enterprise course, but real administrators
who is working with systems for 10-15 years are starting from
Introduction into unix systems.
Here in Russia almost all web design companies using MySQL, on all
hosting systems owners asking to install MySQL for their users etc.
MySQL is everywhere.
So, who will work with PG? Only people registered here :)) Maybe a few
more. So it is normal that MySQL beats PG on the market.
I have Oracle, PostgreSQL servers, used to work with DB2 on AS/400 and
personaly i know that PG is better than MySQL. But who will tell it to
students who saw a computer twice and already think that they are
administrators? :))))
Please do not kill me for this post - i like PG and working with
PG and developing for PG, i was talking just about what happening
around. To make PG known there should be more and more products that
relay on PG. And this should be not Banking or other mission critical
projects. It should be a simple forums, picture bases i do not know
what but the things that should be installable for 3 minutes and
working for years. Otherwise if PG is positioning itself as a DB
system for huge and mission critical tasks - nobody here should think
about MySQL that was simple and will be simple when PG is being
installed for tasks where MySQL will never work and nobody will ever
think it will.

Regards,
Anton

BP> To whom it may concern:

BP> I find the recent articles in various trade publications a little
BP> disturbing due to the lack of PostgrSQL mention. I continue to see
BP> articles about how IBM may be considering MYSQL for development an
BP> open_source web database.

BP> Why isn't PostgreSQL being considered or talked about by major industry
BP> giants? As a DBA I know that Postgres is far superior to MYSQL but if
BP> the industry directs it's energies towards open-source database this
BP> coming year I think somehow PostgreSQL needs to be represented better.
BP> Bob Powell
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Nov 22 '05 #8

P: n/a

On Jan 14, 2004, at 0:08, An*************@loteco.ru wrote:
around. To make PG known there should be more and more products that
relay on PG. And this should be not Banking or other mission critical
projects. It should be a simple forums, picture bases i do not know


This is very insightful. mySQL is not popular in the enterprise
because it's known to solve big problems, but because it's known to
solve little ones. It seems so wrong, but makes so much sense.

--
Dustin Sallings
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Nov 22 '05 #9

P: n/a
I have to agree. In my experience the average database user out there does not
need the entire functionality of something like Oracle. It is because of this
that I have used MySQL for many years now.

In this light (please accept my confession as to being a more prolific MySQL
user), I am becoming more converted to Postgress. I am very impressed with the
full features of PG, but I have noticed some things that will make PG more
useful out of the box.

1. Replication: Like it or not most people regard their data and access to their
data as 'invaluable'. If not, why are they storing it. Having a secondary
server (read slaves) on which you can perform backups, load balance RO traffic,
and eventually use as a failover has been one of the great selling points of
MySQL for my specific applications. I wish there were a Master-Master
replication scheme out there, but that is not the case.

2. Documentation: In delving deeper into the Postgress database I have tried to
find whatever I can to learn more. I have found an Oreilly book out there, but
the TOC reads almost the exact same as the online documentation. I ask myself -
have they lifted the documentation and are now trying to sell me it bound in
book form? MySQL did the same for a while, but it was the other books- problem
solving, examples, programming, etc.. that really helped MySQL adoption IMO.

MySQL marketing has done much to help the average database user out there feel
like they are getting a powerful and feature-rich database. The average user
out there is doing nothing more than address books and recipe books. They,
however, __THINK__ they are real DBA's because MySQL is happy to lead them to
believe that. Having them evangelize the database is like gold. There is no
barrier-to-entry (read cash!!!) to MySQL (or Postgress for that matter) that
requires business case analysis and hiring of trained professionals to run the
database.

I see a trend of "DBA's", "Network Admin's", "** Admins'"(fill in blank) out
there that lack a fundamental understanding of how a computer works and how you
make it work for you, not the other way around. I scoff at most training
centers that sit you in front of a terminal (maintained by them) and teach you
everything you need to know in 20 days for $1200. They lack the understanding
of how I/O works, CPU & caching, ... They know one thing, but they __THINK__
they are the master.

I have ranted about this for a point. It is not what the seasoned 20 year UNIX
veteran knows about a database/OS that really matters in terms of adoption - it
is what the general mass of people __THINKS__ matters. They are becoming ever
present in high levels of decision making functions. Perception is the key.

My $0.02.


Quoting Dustin Sallings <du****@spy.net>:

On Jan 14, 2004, at 0:08, An*************@loteco.ru wrote:
around. To make PG known there should be more and more products that
relay on PG. And this should be not Banking or other mission critical
projects. It should be a simple forums, picture bases i do not know


This is very insightful. mySQL is not popular in the enterprise
because it's known to solve big problems, but because it's known to
solve little ones. It seems so wrong, but makes so much sense.

--
Dustin Sallings
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Nov 22 '05 #10

P: n/a
Matt Davies wrote:
2. Documentation: In delving deeper into the Postgress database I
have tried to find whatever I can to learn more. I have found an
Oreilly book out there, but the TOC reads almost the exact same as
the online documentation. I ask myself - have they lifted the
documentation and are now trying to sell me it bound in book form?
MySQL did the same for a while, but it was the other books- problem
solving, examples, programming, etc.. that really helped MySQL
adoption IMO.


http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/books.html
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Nov 22 '05 #11

P: n/a
1. Replication: Like it or not most people regard their data and access to their
data as 'invaluable'. If not, why are they storing it. Having a secondary
server (read slaves) on which you can perform backups, load balance RO traffic,
and eventually use as a failover has been one of the great selling points of
MySQL for my specific applications. I wish there were a Master-Master
replication scheme out there, but that is not the case.
Replication exists in multiple manners for PostgreSQL. There is Mammoth
replicator (our product),
ErServer (pgsql.com's product), dbmirror, Rserv, and pgCluster.
2. Documentation: In delving deeper into the Postgress database I have tried to
find whatever I can to learn more. I have found an Oreilly book out there, but
the TOC reads almost the exact same as the online documentation. I ask myself -
have they lifted the documentation and are now trying to sell me it bound in
book form?
I am sorry but I am the co-author of that book and I can tell you the
only thing in that
book that reads like the documentation is the reference chapter and the
appendixes.
Not to mention that PostgreSQL.Org has some of the most complete
documentation
of any software out there.

There are also several books on PostgreSQL including the O'Reilly one,
the Addison
Wesley one, the Sams one... and I think even a PTR one.
MySQL marketing has done much to help the average database user out there feel
like they are getting a powerful and feature-rich database. The average user
out there is doing nothing more than address books and recipe books. They,

MySQL has what 19 million in the bank?
I have ranted about this for a point. It is not what the seasoned 20 year UNIX
veteran knows about a database/OS that really matters in terms of adoption - it
is what the general mass of people __THINKS__ matters. They are becoming ever
present in high levels of decision making functions. Perception is the key.
This is very true. Perception is the key.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake
My $0.02.


Quoting Dustin Sallings <du****@spy.net>:
On Jan 14, 2004, at 0:08, An*************@loteco.ru wrote:
around. To make PG known there should be more and more products that
relay on PG. And this should be not Banking or other mission critical
projects. It should be a simple forums, picture bases i do not know

This is very insightful. mySQL is not popular in the enterprise
because it's known to solve big problems, but because it's known to
solve little ones. It seems so wrong, but makes so much sense.

--
Dustin Sallings
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Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL
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Nov 22 '05 #12

P: n/a
Ben
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Not to mention that PostgreSQL.Org has some of the most complete
documentation
of any software out there.


Yes, I don't understand why people seem to keep complaining about
Postgres' documentation - it is by far the best reference documentation
I've ever come across.

Maybe it's that there isn't much tutorial content in the documentation -
for somebody trying to learn how to do SQL in the first place, it's not
going to hold your hand and I could see how that will turn off newbies.

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Nov 22 '05 #13

P: n/a

On Jan 14, 2004, at 10:18, Matt Davies wrote:
1. Replication: Like it or not most people regard their data and
access to their
data as 'invaluable'. If not, why are they storing it. Having a
secondary
I'm not the only person who has used this same argument against mySQL
installs. There is a huge understanding problem here. Sure, so you're
replicating your data...that doesn't mean you're storing what you think
you're storing, or transactionally safe, or consistent, etc...
server (read slaves) on which you can perform backups, load balance RO
traffic,
and eventually use as a failover has been one of the great selling
points of
MySQL for my specific applications. I wish there were a Master-Master
replication scheme out there, but that is not the case.


You don't need a replicate to perform a backup in general. mySQL
imposed this requirement, but a replicate shouldn't be used that way.
Load balancing, perhaps...failover, maybe.

In my experience with really good replication systems (sybase's rep
server), we didn't really use replication this way. We had a replicate
going to a DSS system which was indexed and used differently, and we
had a replicate going to a ``warm'' standby which we would use for some
read-only queries. Its original purpose was to use as a failover
system, but it was rarely used this way, even when there were
catastrophic database problems. The reason is simple. If something
broke the DB, it would be plain irresponsible to swap out the DB server
for another one that is (as far as we know) just as likely to break for
the same reason leaving us stranded. Breaking replication required
rematerialization of the master after brining it back online, which was
an expensive process that left us without a spare for several hours.
So it was the DBAs' job to spend some time during any database failure
to determine the cause and solution. Occasionally that meant swapping
to the other DB, but that process was never automated (well, no more
than being a script a DBA would run whenever he determined it
necessary).

--
Dustin Sallings
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Nov 22 '05 #14

P: n/a
Quoting "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>:
Replication exists in multiple manners for PostgreSQL. There is Mammoth
replicator (our product),
ErServer (pgsql.com's product), dbmirror, Rserv, and pgCluster.


What I meant was integrated replication. When adding more layers to the database
there is yet one more possible mechanism for failure at some point. I don't
know about you, but Murphy always bites me in the butt. In addition, I found
your product VERY interesting, but it kinda puts me off that it is starting at
$1000. PG is free, MySQL is not (for my purposes) and costs ~$500 with
everything in one tried and true package.

MySQL has what 19 million in the bank?


I only point out what the userbase is feeling. I have never been attacked as an
idiot when using MySQL - I have always had helpful responses instead of "RTFM"
as I have seen and experienced here (and with qmail). To many people starting
the decision making process one looks at the type of support and how the group
makes you feel. You don't risk the company or project on potential hostility.

This is very true. Perception is the key.


Again, I point out, PERCEPTION is the key. This can be done regardless of the
cash stash in the bank.
Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


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Nov 22 '05 #15

P: n/a
Quoting Ben <be***@silentmedia.com>:
Yes, I don't understand why people seem to keep complaining about
Postgres' documentation - it is by far the best reference documentation
I've ever come across.

Maybe it's that there isn't much tutorial content in the documentation -
for somebody trying to learn how to do SQL in the first place, it's not
going to hold your hand and I could see how that will turn off newbies.


I agree - it is very clear and complete. I do think that tutorials will help.
Tutorials being -
1. Basic SQL (one must understand that if you want your product to go forward
you have to teach some basic fundamentals - again no barrier to entry =
(usually) no formal training)

2. General Tutorials (see above)

3. Advanced Usage Tutorials (see above, again)
Acceptance of PG could be greatly accelerated by more:
1. small projects using PG as a backend (as stated in previous thread post)
2. documenation coming from multiple sources. Don't ask me to explain why, but
one seems to equate robustness, usability, etc... with the more titles one
sees. If you go to Barnes and Noble's and look there for DB books you see the
wall of red (Oracle books), black (M$oft), blue (MySQL). I simply point out
that perception being as it is - PG is not there. I am trying to learn more and
more about it to remedy my newcomer understanding of PG. Do not read this as if
I am a newbie to DB's; I am not ignorant.

I talk of perception - if you get PG into the hands of more newbies and make
them feel good you have a viral marketing strategy that costs you no $. I fell
for it years ago with MySQL, but I have since learned. Now that I have Oracle
experience as a reference I see MySQL as lacking and trying to hoodwink me.
Most never make it out of the cloud.

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Nov 22 '05 #16

P: n/a

""Bob Powell"" <Bo*@hotchkiss.org> wrote in message
news:s0**********@grpwise.hotchkiss.org...
To whom it may concern:

I find the recent articles in various trade publications a little
disturbing due to the lack of PostgrSQL mention. I continue to see
articles about how IBM may be considering MYSQL for development an
open_source web database.

Why isn't PostgreSQL being considered or talked about by major industry
giants? As a DBA I know that Postgres is far superior to MYSQL but if
the industry directs it's energies towards open-source database this
coming year I think somehow PostgreSQL needs to be represented better.


Hear, hear!

Almost all the replies are about technical superiority. But, as we have all
seen dozens of times over, marketing trumps technology in the marketplace.

So the only "fix" is to find vocal, clear and market-savvy evangelist(s) for
Postgres. Doesn't even need to be technically savvy (probably helps if the
person isn't).

== Ezra Epostein.
Nov 22 '05 #17

P: n/a

A good clean replication system is not available for bsd platforms as far as
I can tell, which is the preferred OS of choice for many PG installations.
I am playing around with Erserver, but the download has to be updated from
cvs or it won't even compile (corrupted file in the distribution). It
appears to me at first glance that it is not actively being worked on,
although it may indeed work (I haven't had a chance to fully configure/test
it yet on freebsd 5).

The Erserver I downloaded is free, although I was confused also because I
found that same page that said it was $1000. I'm still not sure if the
erserver I downloaded is the only version, or if there is a commercial
version?

Chris

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Davies" <ma**@mattdavies.net>
To: <pg***********@postgresql.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Postgress and MYSQL

Quoting "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>:
Replication exists in multiple manners for PostgreSQL. There is Mammoth
replicator (our product),
ErServer (pgsql.com's product), dbmirror, Rserv, and pgCluster.


What I meant was integrated replication. When adding more layers to the

database there is yet one more possible mechanism for failure at some point. I don't know about you, but Murphy always bites me in the butt. In addition, I found your product VERY interesting, but it kinda puts me off that it is starting at $1000. PG is free, MySQL is not (for my purposes) and costs ~$500 with
everything in one tried and true package.
MySQL has what 19 million in the bank?


I only point out what the userbase is feeling. I have never been attacked

as an idiot when using MySQL - I have always had helpful responses instead of "RTFM" as I have seen and experienced here (and with qmail). To many people starting the decision making process one looks at the type of support and how the group makes you feel. You don't risk the company or project on potential hostility.

This is very true. Perception is the key.


Again, I point out, PERCEPTION is the key. This can be done regardless of

the cash stash in the bank.
Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


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Nov 22 '05 #18

P: n/a
Mensaje citado por Ben <be***@silentmedia.com>:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Not to mention that PostgreSQL.Org has some of the most complete
documentation
of any software out there.


Yes, I don't understand why people seem to keep complaining about
Postgres' documentation - it is by far the best reference documentation
I've ever come across.


Not really. I just tried to look in the docs for the explicit for of a CAST
(really trying to find the link to send someone), and I just couldn't find it.
I know it's somewhere there, as I have read it before, but not even the search
engine installed in the interactive docs seem to find that doc.

Personally I think the docs are great (I learned a lot from them), but some
things are not that easy to find, even with a search engine. Compared to MySQL
online docs, PG's docs are heaven!!! :-)

--
select 'mmarques' || '@' || 'unl.edu.ar' AS email;
---------------------------------------------------------
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Centro de Telemática | Administrador
Universidad Nacional
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Nov 22 '05 #19

P: n/a
What I meant was integrated replication. When adding more layers to the database
there is yet one more possible mechanism for failure at some point. I don't
know about you, but Murphy always bites me in the butt. In addition, I found
your product VERY interesting, but it kinda puts me off that it is starting at
$1000. PG is free, MySQL is not (for my purposes) and costs ~$500 with
everything in one tried and true package.
I am sorry but MySQL is anything but a tried a true package for any
serious database stuff.
Yes it is simple, but I don't consider any database that will allow you to:

divide by zero
truncate data
ignore data type constraints

worth even 500.00.
only point out what the userbase is feeling. I have never been attacked as an
idiot when using MySQL - I have always had helpful responses instead of "RTFM"

Well first, you should always RTFM but I have never seen anyone being
treated like
an idiot on these lists and we have some pretty dumb monkeys ask
questions some times.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake
--
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Nov 22 '05 #20

P: n/a
We are in the process of porting a logistics application to Postgres from a
Progress Software database. We have about 75 employees and will be putting
Postgres to work in a real time business situation where there are lots of
transactions. Once we are successful in this endeavor, how can we get stories
like that out to people who would care to know? I know this is a small
business project, but will it help to advertise that the "little" guys are in
the trenches doing this kind of thing?

On Tuesday 13 January 2004 11:32 am, Bob Powell wrote:
To whom it may concern:

I find the recent articles in various trade publications a little
disturbing due to the lack of PostgrSQL mention. I continue to see
articles about how IBM may be considering MYSQL for development an
open_source web database.

Why isn't PostgreSQL being considered or talked about by major industry
giants? As a DBA I know that Postgres is far superior to MYSQL but if
the industry directs it's energies towards open-source database this
coming year I think somehow PostgreSQL needs to be represented better.
Bob Powell
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Nov 22 '05 #21

P: n/a
> On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Not to mention that PostgreSQL.Org has some of the most complete
documentation
of any software out there.


Yes, I don't understand why people seem to keep complaining about
Postgres' documentation - it is by far the best reference documentation
I've ever come across.

Maybe it's that there isn't much tutorial content in the documentation -
for somebody trying to learn how to do SQL in the first place, it's not
going to hold your hand and I could see how that will turn off newbies.


I used to have that complaint until I got more aquainted with the docs.
When I used to use mysql I found that if I used search feature on their docs
I could find exactly what I was looking for almost immediately. When I use
the postgres doc search feature I don't get the same experience. It is
slow, sometimes doesn't work and rarely gives me what I am looking for.
Then I just started using google to search the docs and realized that just
looking at the TOC is usually good enough and that the postgres docs are
actually excellent. My bad experience with search, as well as the good
experience with mysql search (do other people feel this way) however led me
initially to conclude that the postgres docs were not as good.
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Nov 22 '05 #22

P: n/a
Terry Lee Tucker wrote:
We are in the process of porting a logistics application to Postgres from a
Progress Software database. We have about 75 employees and will be putting
Postgres to work in a real time business situation where there are lots of
transactions. Once we are successful in this endeavor, how can we get stories
like that out to people who would care to know? I know this is a small
business project, but will it help to advertise that the "little" guys are in
the trenches doing this kind of thing?
Absolutely. If you have a case study you can point over to pgsql-advocacy.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake
On Tuesday 13 January 2004 11:32 am, Bob Powell wrote:

To whom it may concern:

I find the recent articles in various trade publications a little
disturbing due to the lack of PostgrSQL mention. I continue to see
articles about how IBM may be considering MYSQL for development an
open_source web database.

Why isn't PostgreSQL being considered or talked about by major industry
giants? As a DBA I know that Postgres is far superior to MYSQL but if
the industry directs it's energies towards open-source database this
coming year I think somehow PostgreSQL needs to be represented better.
Bob Powell
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Nov 22 '05 #23

P: n/a
I used to have that complaint until I got more aquainted with the docs.
When I used to use mysql I found that if I used search feature on their docs
I could find exactly what I was looking for almost immediately. When I use
the postgres doc search feature I don't get the same experience. It is

Our doc search sucks. No question... there has been some work recently on it
but it doesn't seem to be that reliable. So you have us on that one.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake
slow, sometimes doesn't work and rarely gives me what I am looking for.
Then I just started using google to search the docs and realized that just
looking at the TOC is usually good enough and that the postgres docs are
actually excellent. My bad experience with search, as well as the good
experience with mysql search (do other people feel this way) however led me
initially to conclude that the postgres docs were not as good.
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Nov 22 '05 #24

P: n/a
Mensaje citado por Matt Davies <ma**@mattdavies.net>:
Quoting "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>:

MySQL has what 19 million in the bank?


I only point out what the userbase is feeling. I have never been attacked as
an
idiot when using MySQL - I have always had helpful responses instead of
"RTFM"
as I have seen and experienced here (and with qmail). To many people
starting
the decision making process one looks at the type of support and how the
group
makes you feel. You don't risk the company or project on potential
hostility.


Oh, please! I have never seen such a better community then this one (well, some
exceptions come to mind right now, but it's still within the best).

I have personally found GREAT replys from the developers (Tom Lane comes to
mind, saving me lots of time in some ocations), and users of this list.

Don't missunderstand me. Everyone (including me) some times makes responces in a
bit of a hard manner, but I think you have to see the whole picture, and not a
par of snapshots.

P.D.: BTW, RTFM is very good. You can learn alot from them. ;-)

--
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Nov 22 '05 #25

P: n/a
> >I used to have that complaint until I got more aquainted with the docs.
When I used to use mysql I found that if I used search feature on their docsI could find exactly what I was looking for almost immediately. When I usethe postgres doc search feature I don't get the same experience. It is

Our doc search sucks. No question... there has been some work recently on

it but it doesn't seem to be that reliable. So you have us on that one.


Uh, I don't have one on you the mysql team does. I haven't used mysql in
over a year and don't intend to again (at least not for any app I write
myself at leaset). I assume that the mysql website is just using the mysql
full text search. Having used the mysql full text search it does not
surprise me that the search on their website search is so good. I always
asummed (read hoped) that the postgres full text search was just as good. I
hope the bad website search is not a reflection of the quality of the full
text search in postgres.

Does anyone have any experience with postgers full text search?

Perhaps someone could get two birds with one stone and make a good full text
search engine for postgres (how hard could it be if mysql has such a good
one :-) ) and use it to index the postgres docs.

Of course maybe mysql.com uses some other proprietery seach.
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Nov 22 '05 #26

P: n/a
Mensaje citado por "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>:
I used to have that complaint until I got more aquainted with the docs.
When I used to use mysql I found that if I used search feature on their

docs
I could find exactly what I was looking for almost immediately. When I use
the postgres doc search feature I don't get the same experience. It is

Our doc search sucks. No question... there has been some work recently on it
but it doesn't seem to be that reliable. So you have us on that one.


I personally think that the search criterion is what's wrong here. The speed can
be fixed with optimization in the server.

--
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Nov 22 '05 #27

P: n/a

Does anyone have any experience with postgers full text search?
It works well but it is my understanding that our docs search doesn't
use PostgreSQL
and TSearch. It uses PostgreSQL monogo search or something like that.

J
Perhaps someone could get two birds with one stone and make a good full text
search engine for postgres (how hard could it be if mysql has such a good
one :-) ) and use it to index the postgres docs.

Of course maybe mysql.com uses some other proprietery seach.
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Nov 22 '05 #28

P: n/a
Quoting Martin Marques <ma****@bugs.unl.edu.ar>:
Oh, please! I have never seen such a better community then this one (well,
some
exceptions come to mind right now, but it's still within the best).

I have personally found GREAT replys from the developers (Tom Lane comes to
mind, saving me lots of time in some ocations), and users of this list.

Don't missunderstand me. Everyone (including me) some times makes responces
in a
bit of a hard manner, but I think you have to see the whole picture, and not
a
par of snapshots.

P.D.: BTW, RTFM is very good. You can learn alot from them. ;-)


This thread is getting long and out in never-never land. I have RTFM. In fact,
many times. As a matter of practice I subscribe long before I post. I RTFM, I
google, attempted to search the docs and lists, ...

My comments come from my experiences and others. Yes, Tom Lane has wonderful
advice and help.

I do not mean to call the PG baby ugly (as I fear some people have taken it), I
only mean to point out some areas (as others have in this thread) that could be
improved upon that would greatly enhance PG.

Imagine this: more users, more installations, more (selective) development
fingers. Not all users are rocket scientists, but the video game rule applies
to many: if I can't get it going in X (user preference) minutes then it isn't
worth the trouble. Should PG be limited to only those who are hard core DB
users? If so, I don't think PG will take off as fast.

OK, I am done.


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Nov 22 '05 #29

P: n/a
> >Does anyone have any experience with postgers full text search?

It works well but it is my understanding that our docs search doesn't
use PostgreSQL
and TSearch. It uses PostgreSQL monogo search or something like that.


That's good to hear. What is monogo and is it the problem here? Why don't
it use TSearch if it is better? Is it just a matter of someone taking the
time to set it up?
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Nov 22 '05 #30

P: n/a
That's good to hear. What is monogo and is it the problem here? Why don't
it use TSearch if it is better? Is it just a matter of someone taking the
time to set it up?

It is a little more complicated than that. Monogo or whatever it is
called is more
like a web spider that uses postgresql. Thus we can search the entire
postgresql
website. Tsearch is more about text search within PostgreSQL so we would
have
to load the books etc... into the database. That is not as easy as it
sounds.

Also if you are looking for something very cool... check out www.pgsql.ru

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
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Nov 22 '05 #31

P: n/a
> Imagine this: more users, more installations, more (selective) development
fingers. Not all users are rocket scientists, but the video game rule applies
to many: if I can't get it going in X (user preference) minutes then it isn't
worth the trouble. Should PG be limited to only those who are hard core DB
users? If so, I don't think PG will take off as fast.


We need a Postgres vs MySQL Mailing list :)

Honestly PG is easy to get up and running on several distributions. On
RH, service postgres start willgive you a running Postgres (it will do an
initdb if needed). Now just create a user and get going.

PG is only hard because people _think_ it's going to be hard. Or because
it used to be hard. However, it hasn't been hard for a long time.

I also don't think "how fast will this take off" is necesarily a good
design requirement.

Jon

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Nov 22 '05 #32

P: n/a
Mensaje citado por Rick Gigger <ri**@alpinenetworking.com>:
Does anyone have any experience with postgers full text search?

It works well but it is my understanding that our docs search doesn't
use PostgreSQL
and TSearch. It uses PostgreSQL monogo search or something like that.


That's good to hear. What is monogo and is it the problem here? Why don't
it use TSearch if it is better? Is it just a matter of someone taking the
time to set it up?


http://www.mnogosearch.com/

Aparently the problem is that this application is already written (I'm talking
about the presentation and buisness layers).

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Universidad Nacional
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Nov 22 '05 #33

P: n/a

Personally I don't think it's installing/running the database server that
people have problems with. I used postgresql about 5 years ago and am now
switching back to it from sapdb. I have also used mysql and oracle.

The problems I have had with postgresql is the websites. The website does
very little to make an impression on new users, or to showcase the features
that are available to someone that doesn't know anything about postgresql.
It's difficult to find information, and too much information is outdated
which makes you question everything else. I still am not sure what
replication options are available because of all the conflicting information
that is posted on the various websites (gborg, pgsql.com, postgresql.org,
etc..).

Look I love postgresql, but reality is reality. The database itself is
great, the documentation is pretty good, but a lot of the other things about
postgresql (like the website) need a lot of work. Postgresql gives the
impression of being a second rate disorganized product if you were to just
go by the website alone. Now of course that is not true, but perception
governs people's actions and behavior. If people think postgresql is
difficult, guess what, for all intents and purposes it is. If that
perception leads them to use mysql instead of postgresql, then at some point
you have to face the fact that it's the perceptions that are really
important, regardless of the facts.

Chris

Honestly PG is easy to get up and running on several distributions. On
RH, service postgres start willgive you a running Postgres (it will do an
initdb if needed). Now just create a user and get going.

PG is only hard because people _think_ it's going to be hard. Or because
it used to be hard. However, it hasn't been hard for a long time.

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Nov 22 '05 #34

P: n/a
Quoting Rick Gigger <ri**@alpinenetworking.com>:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Not to mention that PostgreSQL.Org has some of the most complete
documentation
of any software out there.


Yes, I don't understand why people seem to keep complaining about
Postgres' documentation - it is by far the best reference documentation
I've ever come across.

Maybe it's that there isn't much tutorial content in the documentation -
for somebody trying to learn how to do SQL in the first place, it's not
going to hold your hand and I could see how that will turn off newbies.


I used to have that complaint until I got more aquainted with the docs.
When I used to use mysql I found that if I used search feature on their docs
I could find exactly what I was looking for almost immediately. When I use
the postgres doc search feature I don't get the same experience. It is
slow, sometimes doesn't work and rarely gives me what I am looking for.
Then I just started using google to search the docs and realized that just
looking at the TOC is usually good enough and that the postgres docs are
actually excellent. My bad experience with search, as well as the good
experience with mysql search (do other people feel this way) however led me
initially to conclude that the postgres docs were not as good.
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That is something we can't seem to get across the new folks who think that they
can come from MySQL and move to PostgreSQL. I don't know why- I've heard people
say it because they are both open source, I heard (new) people say that they
should have to read the docs first, the reasons go on and on. What I do know is:

1) Comparing MySQL to PostgreSQL is not a valid technical discussion They're
different products.

2) Assuming the way MySQL does is correct is also invalid. What MySQL does for
MySQL works for them. Over time and with and open mind, I saw that even back
in the 6.x days that PostgreSQL was going to be a more robust product
and as such I had to not only learn PG but I also had to learn more about
relational theory and SQL. I was initially put off too (I remember all my
engineering buddies and I cracking jokes about those "database people") but
at the time, my DB experience was Dbase, Filemaker Pro and Foxpro. I mean
really... *laff*

3) Not being able to "find" something in via search BEFORE even reading the
documentation is somewhat backwards. You have to at least get a feel for
the docs before even know what to look for. That is not to say that the
search engine is not problematic but it is to say that I'm am more and more
convinced that knowing how to search more important than what is being
searched for.

4) As many people pointed out before, a product should not be technical
education it should product education. Some people take it as being rude
we some on-list says use google or check <some other site>. Granted
being told "this is not hand holding" is definitely a slap in the face its
been done to me and I'm sure there is a better way to put it but the
reality is that PG docs are very good. Get some paper and print
they out double-sided- they're an excellent reference. However, you have to
understand the basics first and that simply does not belong on the PG
site (save a link to some community recommendations).
BTW, I've asked this before but where are the 7.4 docs in PS or PDF format? If
any one needs or wants them, I do have the 7.3.2-US books (admin, user,
programmer & reference) in PS with the duplexing code. They all fit nicely in a
3" ring binder and will compliment any bookshelf :)

--
Keith C. Perry, MS E.E.
Director of Networks & Applications
VCSN, Inc.
http://vcsn.com

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Nov 22 '05 #35

P: n/a
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Rick Gigger wrote:
Does anyone have any experience with postgers full text search?


I just put the docs on my apache server and hit them with htdig or
mnogosearch.
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Nov 22 '05 #36

P: n/a
Quoting "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprompt.com>:
That's good to hear. What is monogo and is it the problem here? Why don't
it use TSearch if it is better? Is it just a matter of someone taking the
time to set it up?

It is a little more complicated than that. Monogo or whatever it is
called is more
like a web spider that uses postgresql. Thus we can search the entire
postgresql
website. Tsearch is more about text search within PostgreSQL so we would
have
to load the books etc... into the database. That is not as easy as it
sounds.

Also if you are looking for something very cool... check out www.pgsql.ru

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
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I thought Marc optimized the search last week when this same thread was being
discussed?

Marc?

--
Keith C. Perry, MS E.E.
Director of Networks & Applications
VCSN, Inc.
http://vcsn.com

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Nov 22 '05 #37

P: n/a

BTW, I've asked this before but where are the 7.4 docs in PS or PDF format? If


They are being worked on ;)
any one needs or wants them, I do have the 7.3.2-US books (admin, user,
programmer & reference) in PS with the duplexing code. They all fit nicely in a
3" ring binder and will compliment any bookshelf :)

--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandprompt.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
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Nov 22 '05 #38

P: n/a
Look I love postgresql, but reality is reality. The database itself is
great, the documentation is pretty good, but a lot of the other things about
postgresql (like the website) need a lot of work. Postgresql gives the
impression of being a second rate disorganized product if you were to just
go by the website alone.
Isn't that true of just about any OSS project? Heck, Linux doesn't even
have a website ;).
MySQL is not an OSS project, it is an OSS product with a commercial
company backing
it. There is a big difference.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

Now of course that is not true, but perception
governs people's actions and behavior. If people think postgresql is
difficult, guess what, for all intents and purposes it is. If that
perception leads them to use mysql instead of postgresql, then at some point
you have to face the fact that it's the perceptions that are really
important, regardless of the facts.

Chris


Honestly PG is easy to get up and running on several distributions. On
RH, service postgres start willgive you a running Postgres (it will do an
initdb if needed). Now just create a user and get going.

PG is only hard because people _think_ it's going to be hard. Or because
it used to be hard. However, it hasn't been hard for a long time.

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Nov 22 '05 #39

P: n/a
Martin Marques wrote:
Not really. I just tried to look in the docs for the explicit for of
a CAST (really trying to find the link to send someone), and I just
couldn't find it. I know it's somewhere there, as I have read it
before, but not even the search engine installed in the interactive
docs seem to find that doc.


If you want to find something in the documentation, there's an index at
the end of it. I realize now that there's no entry for CAST, which I
will fix. But if you find more terms that you would like to see in the
index, write to pgsql-docs.
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Nov 22 '05 #40

P: n/a
Yes I didn't really want to get into that at the moment, but that is THE
main difference....

That said, there are number of OSS projects that have very nice websites,
and it wouldn't be that much work to clean up the postgresql site a bit.
I'm not talking about a ton of new content, just a simple, clean layout for
the front page that's easier to use. I might even do a template myself and
send it to the list if I can get the time.

Chris

Isn't that true of just about any OSS project? Heck, Linux doesn't even
have a website ;).
MySQL is not an OSS project, it is an OSS product with a commercial
company backing
it. There is a big difference.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

Now of course that is not true, but perception
governs people's actions and behavior. If people think postgresql is
difficult, guess what, for all intents and purposes it is. If that
perception leads them to use mysql instead of postgresql, then at some pointyou have to face the fact that it's the perceptions that are really
important, regardless of the facts.

Chris


Honestly PG is easy to get up and running on several distributions. On
RH, service postgres start willgive you a running Postgres (it will do aninitdb if needed). Now just create a user and get going.

PG is only hard because people _think_ it's going to be hard. Or becauseit used to be hard. However, it hasn't been hard for a long time.

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Nov 22 '05 #41

P: n/a
I'm not talking about a ton of new content, just a simple, clean layout for
the front page that's easier to use. I might even do a template myself and
send it to the list if I can get the time.
Well before you do that, you might want to look at pgsql-advocacy and
pgsql-www. There
are some arguments going on right now about that very subject :)

Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
Chris

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Nov 22 '05 #42

P: n/a
jd@commandprompt.com ("Joshua D. Drake") writes:
BTW, I've asked this before but where are the 7.4 docs in PS or PDF format? If


They are being worked on ;)
any one needs or wants them, I do have the 7.3.2-US books (admin, user,
programmer & reference) in PS with the duplexing code. They all fit nicely in a
3" ring binder and will compliment any bookshelf :)


Quick question that popped up when chatting with a friend that's
considering using PG...

The PDF documentation set didn't seem to have _valid_ links from
indices/table-of-contents to the 'destinations.' I don't recall
offhand; might this be that he grabbed something a bit old-and-broken?
Or have there been troubles with this with the DocBook tools?
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Nov 22 '05 #43

P: n/a
I will, and glad to hear it is being worked on.

Chris
I'm not talking about a ton of new content, just a simple, clean layout forthe front page that's easier to use. I might even do a template myself andsend it to the list if I can get the time.

Well before you do that, you might want to look at pgsql-advocacy and
pgsql-www. There
are some arguments going on right now about that very subject :)

Sincerely,
Joshua D. Drake
Chris

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Nov 22 '05 #44

P: n/a
Mensaje citado por Peter Eisentraut <pe*****@gmx.net>:
Martin Marques wrote:
Not really. I just tried to look in the docs for the explicit for of
a CAST (really trying to find the link to send someone), and I just
couldn't find it. I know it's somewhere there, as I have read it
before, but not even the search engine installed in the interactive
docs seem to find that doc.


If you want to find something in the documentation, there's an index at
the end of it. I realize now that there's no entry for CAST, which I
will fix. But if you find more terms that you would like to see in the
index, write to pgsql-docs.


Well, this is something very interesting. I didn't know about pgsql-docs (maybe
it's because I go into the "lists" section in www.postgresql.org not looking at
the lists available, but looking for actual help on a certain list).

I will do so in the future. Thanks alot.

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Nov 22 '05 #45

P: n/a
Mensaje citado por "Keith C. Perry" <ne******@vcsn.com>:

3) Not being able to "find" something in via search BEFORE even reading the
documentation is somewhat backwards. You have to at least get a feel for
the docs before even know what to look for. That is not to say that the
search engine is not problematic but it is to say that I'm am more and
more
convinced that knowing how to search more important than what is being
searched for.
I am totally against this kind of believes.
Personally, I think that one of the most important caracteristics a book should
have is a VERY GOOD INDEX. This makes the searching easier.
I can remember starting with Informix, about 4 years ago, and I can say that
even not being excelent manuals the index really helped me and made me save
lots of time when trying to find a determinated information.
BTW, I've asked this before but where are the 7.4 docs in PS or PDF format?
If
any one needs or wants them, I do have the 7.3.2-US books (admin, user,
programmer & reference) in PS with the duplexing code. They all fit nicely
in a
3" ring binder and will compliment any bookshelf :)


I had the 7.1 printed. Read most of it when my wife was in the hospital having
my daughter, and I had to stay there 2 days. :-)

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Nov 22 '05 #46

P: n/a
On Wed, Jan 14, 2004 at 09:29:32PM -0300, Martin Marques wrote:
Mensaje citado por "Keith C. Perry" <ne******@vcsn.com>:

3) Not being able to "find" something in via search BEFORE even reading the
documentation is somewhat backwards. You have to at least get a feel for
the docs before even know what to look for. That is not to say that the
search engine is not problematic but it is to say that I'm am more and
more
convinced that knowing how to search more important than what is being
searched for.
I am totally against this kind of believes.
Personally, I think that one of the most important caracteristics a book should
have is a VERY GOOD INDEX. This makes the searching easier.


But the PG docs _have_ good indexes! (Much better than other docs for
open source projects I have seen.) I for one have always found what I
was looking for. Searching in a full text engine is a different matter
and I agree it is lousy (maybe that's the reason I don't use it
anymore).

I had the 7.1 printed. Read most of it when my wife was in the hospital having
my daughter, and I had to stay there 2 days. :-)


Go figure. Maybe I'll start thinking about children so I can have a
spare time to read documentation ... or maybe not ;-)

--
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"I think my standards have lowered enough that now I think 'good design'
is when the page doesn't irritate the living f*ck out of me." (JWZ)

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Nov 22 '05 #47

P: n/a
Mensaje citado por Alvaro Herrera <al******@dcc.uchile.cl>:
On Wed, Jan 14, 2004 at 09:29:32PM -0300, Martin Marques wrote:

I am totally against this kind of believes.
Personally, I think that one of the most important caracteristics a book

should
have is a VERY GOOD INDEX. This makes the searching easier.


But the PG docs _have_ good indexes! (Much better than other docs for
open source projects I have seen.) I for one have always found what I
was looking for. Searching in a full text engine is a different matter
and I agree it is lousy (maybe that's the reason I don't use it
anymore).


CAST wasn't there. :-)
Any way, as I stated before, I find PG docs to be very good. But I know that they
can be even better, so that is what I'm aiming at.
I had the 7.1 printed. Read most of it when my wife was in the hospital having
my daughter, and I had to stay there 2 days. :-)


Go figure. Maybe I'll start thinking about children so I can have a
spare time to read documentation ... or maybe not ;-)


No Alvaro! I had does two days to read. Since then I have had lots of less time for
relaxing with a book. :-)

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Nov 22 '05 #48

P: n/a
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Matt Davies wrote:

Acceptance of PG could be greatly accelerated by more:
1. small projects using PG as a backend (as stated in previous thread post)
2. documenation coming from multiple sources. Don't ask me to explain why, but
one seems to equate robustness, usability, etc... with the more titles one
sees. If you go to Barnes and Noble's and look there for DB books you see the
wall of red (Oracle books), black (M$oft), blue (MySQL). I simply point out
that perception being as it is - PG is not there. I am trying to learn more and
more about it to remedy my newcomer understanding of PG. Do not read this as if
I am a newbie to DB's; I am not ignorant.


I have just gone to www.barnesandnoble.com , and, searched on
postgresql, and got 13 results - including the famous and
previously mentioned "Teach Yourself PostgreSQL in 21 Days", by Chris
Smith, published in December 2002!

:)

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Nov 22 '05 #49

P: n/a
From: "Keith C. Perry" <ne******@vcsn.com>
3) Not being able to "find" something in via search BEFORE even reading the documentation is somewhat backwards. You have to at least get a feel for the docs before even know what to look for. That is not to say that the search engine is not problematic but it is to say that I'm am more and more convinced that knowing how to search more important than what is being
searched for.
Well put, and I like the other posts about the usefullness of a really good
index. However, I think that there is an attitude that MySQL docs are
better for beginners because the search really takes the place of the index.
However, IMO, this masks a more subtle issue, see below.
4) As many people pointed out before, a product should not be technical
education it should product education. Some people take it as being rude we some on-list says use google or check <some other site>. Granted
being told "this is not hand holding" is definitely a slap in the face its been done to me and I'm sure there is a better way to put it but the
reality is that PG docs are very good. Get some paper and print
they out double-sided- they're an excellent reference. However, you have to understand the basics first and that simply does not belong on the PG
site (save a link to some community recommendations).

I agree to a point, in that the PostgreSQL product documentation is product
education, not general database education. However, the "community
recommended links" approach has a number of difficiencies that I don't think
have been discussed much:

1: Community maintained lists of links seems the easy way to go until those
links become broken or change and need to be removed due to inaccurate
content. It may be easier over the long term to maintain our own technical
education database that we have control over.

2: You DO have a problem that PostgreSQL as a product assumes more general
knowledge than MySQL. The docs tend to assume you know stuff, and it would
be nice to have community maintained references on these general topics,
perhaps on techdocs, perhaps elsewhere.

3: MySQL is a database engine which seems to make sense UNTIL you are
technically educated. Competing with MySQL may mean being able to
articulate why ACID complience is important, for example. Or why the
database should abort the operation/transaction rather than truncate your
data in a NUMERIC column.

So what is the alternative? I am working on some documentation but my work
is slowed by my laptop being in the shop. Perhaps we could have a technical
education category in Techdocs?

Best Wishes,
Chris Travers
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Nov 22 '05 #50

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