Conservation of OIDs

[btober]

I run three instances of a database, in a typical change-control scenario:
Production, QAT, and DEV.

The Production database is the "real" data, and we periodically take a
back up from Prod and re-instantiate QAT and DEV by dropping them and
then restoring from the Prod backup.

The development (DEV) instance is used by application developers and
DBA's to "play" with, when initially trying out or developing new
features. It gives them completely realistic sample data to work with,
and I don't care if they screw up the data or even accidentally delete
all of it, because I can easily re-create DEV from PROD.

QAT is somewhat similar to DEV, but it is intended to be the proving
ground for newly implemented features: we start with QAT in the same,
(presumably stable) state as Prod, apply any required changes, test the
client application and data, repeat as necessary until it works right,
then process the same changes against Prod.

My question relates to how to avoid expending OID's unnecessarily. I have
declared all my tables as WITHOUT OIDS, but my understanding is that
applies only to the actual table data and that database objects, like
tables, view, procedures, etc, still have a uniquie OID assigned at
instantiation. So every time I refresh QAT and DEV from the production
database, I burn up lots of OID's. Not that OID's are in short supply,
but I'm anal retentive about these things and so if there is a
straight-forward way to avoid unnecesary OID consumption it would help me
sleep better.

~Berend Tober


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[Manfred Koizar]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:01:51 -0500 (EST), <bt****@seaworthysys.com>
wrote:

The Production database is the "real" data, and we periodically take a
back up from Prod and re-instantiate QAT and DEV by dropping them and
then restoring from the Prod backup. Not that OID's are in short supply,
but I'm anal retentive about these things and so if there is a
straight-forward way to avoid unnecesary OID consumption it would help me
sleep better.

OIDs are unsigned 32 bit. Something like 1000 or 10000 are reserved
for system use. So you still have more than 4000000000 for your
objects. How many objects (tables, indices, operators, functions,
....) are there, and how often is "periodically"?

If you're really concerned, you can initdb separate clusters for QAT
and DEV and run three postmasters using three different ports.

Servus
Manfred

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[btober]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:01:51 -0500 (EST), <bt****@seaworthysys.com>
wrote:

The Production database is the "real" data, and we periodically take a
back up from Prod and re-instantiate QAT and DEV by dropping them and
then restoring from the Prod backup.

Not that OID's are in short supply,
but I'm anal retentive about these things and so if there is a
straight-forward way to avoid unnecesary OID consumption it would help
me sleep better.

OIDs are unsigned 32 bit...you still have more than 4000000000 for your
objects. How many objects (tables, indices, operators, functions, ...)

Only several thousand, so as a practical matter I realize in this case it
realistically is not a problem, but for the sake of completenss in
understanding how I *could* do this, I'd like to learn.
...and how often is "periodically"?
I guess periodically isn't really the right word. We may not refresh QAT
or DEV at all for weeks. But when a change is required, there may be
many, say dozens, of iterations on some days when testing is in full
operation because we want to be sure to have QAT in the same state as
PROD before applying a sequence of changes for QA testing that are
proposed for PROD before implementing in PROD. So an iterative cycle
happens where a proposed change is implemented in QAT, problems are
discovered in QAT, we try to fix the problems, then refresh QAT,
re-apply, test again, etc., until we get it right and are confident that
we need do it only once in PROD.

Another reason we may do a refresh, against PROD even, is to change a
column width, since, as numerous list participants here have realized, is
not really very easy otherwise, if you want to be sure to get all
dependent views, rules, and triggers to not break.

...you can initdb separate clusters for QAT
and DEV and run three postmasters using three different ports.

This is what I was thinking but didn't really understand fully what I
would have to do. So your suggestion involves

initdb -D my_QAT_path

then

psql -f my_PROD_backup.sql ... [?]

Can you help me out with a little more detail and tell me where does the
"different port" assignement come into play? I know I have the default
port 5432 in my postgresql.conf file, but how do I associate different
ports with the different postmasters? I guess the -h option on the start
command line, but my RH Linux machine is setup up start the postmaster
automatically on startup, using the /etc/init.d/postgresql script file.
How would I get the postmaster to auto start multiple instances using the
different port configurations?

~Berend Tober


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[btober]

>

If you're really concerned, you can initdb separate clusters for QAT
and DEV and run three postmasters using three different ports.

Follow-up question: Are different ports really necessary? I currently
have the three different databases defined all in the same cluster, and
differentiated by name, e.g., mydb, mydbqat, and mydbdev. If I have the
postmaster start these three instances in separate clusters,
respectively, using three different directories, such as

$ postmaster -D /usr/local/pgsql/data
$ postmaster -D /usr/local/pgsql/qat
$ postmaster -D /usr/local/pgsql/dev

and make no change regarding which port the daemon listens on, but DO
have a single, unique database name, one per cluster (mydb, mydbqat,
mydbdev) in the respective clusters, will connections requests to any one
of these databases on that same port find their way to the right place
(and back)?

Or maybe would be better to not used different database names at all to
differential PROD, QAT, and DEV, and instead differentiate solely which
cluster is to be used by means of your suggestion of using different
ports? I dunno. What do you think?

~Berend Tober


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[Peter Eisentraut]

bt****@seaworthysys.com writes:

Follow-up question: Are different ports really necessary?
Yes.
I currently have the three different databases defined all in the same
cluster, and differentiated by name, e.g., mydb, mydbqat, and mydbdev.
If I have the postmaster start these three instances in separate
clusters, respectively, using three different directories, such as

$ postmaster -D /usr/local/pgsql/data
$ postmaster -D /usr/local/pgsql/qat
$ postmaster -D /usr/local/pgsql/dev

.... then the second and third command will fail.

--
Peter Eisentraut pe*****@gmx.net
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[Alvaro Herrera]

On Fri, Nov 14, 2003 at 01:37:50PM -0500, bt****@seaworthysys.com wrote:

If you're really concerned, you can initdb separate clusters for QAT
and DEV and run three postmasters using three different ports.

Follow-up question: Are different ports really necessary?

No, and it will be probably a waste of shared_buffers too. IMHO you
should keep them under a single postmaster, and forget about the OID
wraparound problem. It won't be a problem for you anyway, because if
you create the whole DB from scratch you won't have OID collision
anyway, even on year 2030 when your OIDs really do wrap around. Maybe by
then we will have 8 bit OIDs anyway, and you will surely initdb way
before that.

--
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"Las mujeres son como hondas: mientras más resistencia tienen,
más lejos puedes llegar con ellas" (Jonas Nightingale, Leap of Faith)

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[Nigel J. Andrews]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 bt****@seaworthysys.com wrote:

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:01:51 -0500 (EST), <bt****@seaworthysys.com>
wrote:

The Production database is the "real" data, and we periodically take a
back up from Prod and re-instantiate QAT and DEV by dropping them and
then restoring from the Prod backup.

OIDs are unsigned 32 bit...you still have more than 4000000000 for your
objects. How many objects (tables, indices, operators, functions, ...)

Only several thousand, so as a practical matter I realize in this case it
realistically is not a problem, but for the sake of completenss in
understanding how I *could* do this, I'd like to learn.

...

...you can initdb separate clusters for QAT
and DEV and run three postmasters using three different ports.

This is what I was thinking but didn't really understand fully what I
would have to do. So your suggestion involves

initdb -D my_QAT_path

then

psql -f my_PROD_backup.sql ... [?]

Can you help me out with a little more detail and tell me where does the
"different port" assignement come into play? I know I have the default
port 5432 in my postgresql.conf file, but how do I associate different
ports with the different postmasters? I guess the -h option on the start
command line, but my RH Linux machine is setup up start the postmaster
automatically on startup, using the /etc/init.d/postgresql script file.
How would I get the postmaster to auto start multiple instances using the
different port configurations?

Whoa! You mean these aren't already separate database clusters or even separate
systems? I am very shocked, you can't do a proper Dev --> QAT --> Prod
environment if all three systems are run by the same postmaster, or on the same
host imo. But maybe I'm just over cautious, or worked on systems where access
to production systems is controlled.

I can see the advantages in that Dev and QAT environments are automatically the
same as Prod but in general Dev can be a law unto itself almost and QAT
reflects the environment of Prod, e.g. Prod is Solaris 5.9 so QAT is Solaris
5.9, with the only differences being changes applied to QAT that have not yet
been applied to Prod, and Dev could be Windows if that can provide everything
needed to develop for the end product.

At the very least I think your three database should be run as separate
clusters, indeed reading the section I edited out from your email about the
usage pattern on QAT and Dev my first thought was "Well if you think oid wrap
around would be a problem just throw an initdb into your rebuild cycle."

I've seen some useful replies on how to run these separately but am I the only
one shocked that the whole process is happening on a production system?
--
Nigel Andrews
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[btober]

> Whoa! You mean these aren't already separate database clusters or even

separate systems? I am very shocked, you can't do a proper Dev --> QAT
--> Prod environment if all three systems are run by the same
postmaster, or on the same host imo.

I can see having separate clusters would save me the unnecessary
expenditure of OID',s, and I can see access to the production data being
restricted (from developers?) in most cases as a good thing, but for this
environment the set of end-users and developers is actually quite small,
they are in close proximity and have ready communication, and so I don't
see why it would be a problem to have the same postmaster running all
three databases for this case. I would be interested in hearing more
detail as to why it is a bad idea in general.

~Berend Tober


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[Joshua D. Drake]

Whoa! You mean these aren't already separate database clusters or even separate
systems? I am very shocked, you can't do a proper Dev --> QAT --> Prod
environment if all three systems are run by the same postmaster, or on the same
host imo. But maybe I'm just over cautious, or worked on systems where access
to production systems is controlled.

I second this. Use different databases for each. You can run them
on the same machine (there are some real advantages to this) but
create a separate initdb for each... Then run PostgreSQL on its own
port for each.

If you really want to make it structured create virtual IP addresses
for each so that you never think about it...

dev.database.com
qat.database.com
prod.database.com

I can see the advantages in that Dev and QAT environments are automatically the
same as Prod but in general Dev can be a law unto itself almost and QAT
reflects the environment of Prod, e.g. Prod is Solaris 5.9 so QAT is Solaris
5.9, with the only differences being changes applied to QAT that have not yet
been applied to Prod, and Dev could be Windows if that can provide everything
needed to develop for the end product.

At the very least I think your three database should be run as separate
clusters, indeed reading the section I edited out from your email about the
usage pattern on QAT and Dev my first thought was "Well if you think oid wrap
around would be a problem just throw an initdb into your rebuild cycle."

I've seen some useful replies on how to run these separately but am I the only
one shocked that the whole process is happening on a production system?
--
Nigel Andrews
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--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC - S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming, shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
[phone] - [e-mail] - http://www.commandprompt.com
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[Alvaro Herrera]

On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 10:47:22AM -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Whoa! You mean these aren't already separate database clusters or
even separate systems? I am very shocked, you can't do a proper Dev
--> QAT --> Prod environment if all three systems are run by the same
postmaster, or on the same host imo. But maybe I'm just over
cautious, or worked on systems where access to production systems is
controlled.

I second this. Use different databases for each. You can run them
on the same machine (there are some real advantages to this) but
create a separate initdb for each...

What's the point? You can keep them separate through pg_hba.conf if
it's really needed. I don't see how having several clusters, one
database each, buys you any security.

--
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"Cuando mañana llegue pelearemos segun lo que mañana exija" (Mowgli)

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[Stephan Szabo]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Alvaro Herrera wrote:

On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 10:47:22AM -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Whoa! You mean these aren't already separate database clusters or
even separate systems? I am very shocked, you can't do a proper Dev
--> QAT --> Prod environment if all three systems are run by the same
postmaster, or on the same host imo. But maybe I'm just over
cautious, or worked on systems where access to production systems is
controlled.

I second this. Use different databases for each. You can run them
on the same machine (there are some real advantages to this) but
create a separate initdb for each...

What's the point? You can keep them separate through pg_hba.conf if
it's really needed. I don't see how having several clusters, one
database each, buys you any security.

I don't think security isn't the issue but instead it's reliability. If
you have a bug in your dev system that say causes backends to die and
forcing full postmaster restarts, do you really want to be mucking up your
production system as well? This isn't hard to imagine if you have
extension functions that you're loading as part of your dev system that
are different from production.

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[btober]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, Alvaro Herrera wrote:

On Sun, Nov 16, 2003 at 10:47:22AM -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

>
> >Whoa! You mean these aren't already separate database clusters or even separate systems? I am very shocked, you can't do a proper
Dev --> QAT --> Prod environment if all three systems are run by
the same postmaster, or on the same host imo. But maybe I'm just
over

> >cautious, or worked on systems where access to production systems

is controlled.

>
> I second this. Use different databases for each. You can run them

on the same machine (there are some real advantages to this) but
create a separate initdb for each...

What's the point? You can keep them separate through pg_hba.conf if
it's really needed. I don't see how having several clusters, one
database each, buys you any security.

Using a separate cluster for each, or at least one cluster for PROD and
one for both QAT and DEV does address the original question posed about
burning through OIDS during the refresh->modify->test->fix iteration.

I don't think security isn't the issue but instead it's reliability. If
you have a bug in your dev system that say causes backends to die and
forcing full postmaster restarts, do you really want to be mucking up
your production system as well? This isn't hard to imagine ...

I can see the reliability thing being a big plus, too. While I don't care
if developers accidentally drop an important table in DEV, if they hang
the production postmaster or otherwise screw up the server, then that is
undesireable.

The complications (real or imagined at this point) of using different
port numbers has me kind of stuck, however.

So, help me out with some specifics of the multi-cluster route, and lets
pretend I can't afford another machine (actually the hardware acquisition
is not a problem, but I don't want to incur the additional server setup
and maintenance responsiblity). I create a new cluster with

initdb -D /path/to/my/qat/cluster
initdb -D /path/to/my/dev/cluster
right? Then that means that I need to maintain separate pg_hba.conf and
postgresql.conf files for each (in the respective cluster directories),
right?

Then I restore into the new QAT and DEV cluster my backup from PROD, but
exactly how is that done? I guess I have to employ the -p option with
psql, something like

psql -p 5433 -U postgres -f my_prod_backup.sql myqatdb
psql -p 5433 -U postgres -f my_prod_backup.sql mydevdb

(I guess I can use the same database name if I'm using separate
clusters?) assuming I've modified the QAT and DEV postgresql.conf files
to specify that port, or possilby started postmaster with

postmaster -p 5433

for qat and maybe

postmaster -p 5434

for dev.

Actually, the two postmaster commands above are probably wrong. Instead,
is what I need

postmaster -D /path/to/my/qat/cluster

and

postmaster -D /path/to/my/dev/cluster
so that the proper port is picked up from the respectively-modified
postgresql.conf files in the separate cluster directories?

And how would I automate the QAT and DEV postmaster startup with server
startup, the way the current postmaster is started with all three
databases in a single cluster, on my RH Linux host that uses the
rc.d/init.d/postgresql script? Would it be necessary to make a qat and
dev version of that stgartup script, appropriately modified to use the
different cluster directories, or what?

~Berend Tober


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[Doug McNaught]

<bt****@seaworthysys.com> writes:

The complications (real or imagined at this point) of using different
port numbers has me kind of stuck, however.
It's really not that hard.
initdb -D /path/to/my/qat/cluster
initdb -D /path/to/my/dev/cluster
Right.
right? Then that means that I need to maintain separate pg_hba.conf and
postgresql.conf files for each (in the respective cluster directories),
right?
Exactly. Setting the 'port' parameter in postgresql.conf is probably
preferable to doing it on the command line.
Then I restore into the new QAT and DEV cluster my backup from PROD, but
exactly how is that done? I guess I have to employ the -p option with
psql, something like

psql -p 5433 -U postgres -f my_prod_backup.sql myqatdb
psql -p 5433 -U postgres -f my_prod_backup.sql mydevdb ^^^^5434
Yup.
And how would I automate the QAT and DEV postmaster startup with server
startup, the way the current postmaster is started with all three
databases in a single cluster, on my RH Linux host that uses the
rc.d/init.d/postgresql script? Would it be necessary to make a qat and
dev version of that stgartup script, appropriately modified to use the
different cluster directories, or what?

This is a possible approach, but there is a lot of hair in the RH
startup that makes it less than conducive to running multiple
postmasters. In particular, it looks for (or used to; I haven't
looked at it recently since RH 7.x) a process named 'postmaster' to
see if the server is currently running, which doesn't work very well
when you have multiple postmasters.

I'd probably replace the existing init.d script with three copies of
something simpler that just calls

'pg_ctl <start|stop> -D /the/proper/place -l /log/file/name'

-Doug

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