PostgreSQL versus MySQL

[Joshua D. Drake]

Hello,

I think the below just about says it all:

http://www.commandprompt.com/images/...olphin_500.jpg

Sincerely,

Joshua Drake
--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
[phone] - [e-mail] - http://www.commandprompt.com
The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings

[Mike Mascari]

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Hello,

I think the below just about says it all:

http://www.commandprompt.com/images/...olphin_500.jpg

Sincerely,

Joshua Drake

Too bad the symbol of Oracle Corp. isn't a peanut...

Mike Mascari
ma*****@mascari.com

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

[Sean Chittenden]

> I think the below just about says it all:

http://www.commandprompt.com/images/...olphin_500.jpg

Hey Josh, what about some t-shirts with this on the back and some
snappy verbiage above/below the image? Just a thought, but maybe
that's something the advocacy team could run with depending on who
owns the copyright to the image. -sc

--
Sean Chittenden

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
joining column's datatypes do not match

[Andrew L. Gould]

On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:04 pm, Sean Chittenden wrote:

I think the below just about says it all:

http://www.commandprompt.com/images/...olphin_500.jpg

Hey Josh, what about some t-shirts with this on the back and some
snappy verbiage above/below the image? Just a thought, but maybe
that's something the advocacy team could run with depending on who
owns the copyright to the image. -sc

If the dolphin were in a different setting, one could wonder if it got caught
in a .net

;-)

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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[scott.marlowe]

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Hello,

I think the below just about says it all:

http://www.commandprompt.com/images/...olphin_500.jpg

Oh. My. God. That is just so wrong.

But I want a TShirt with that on it so bad... :-)
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

[scott.marlowe]

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Hello,

I think the below just about says it all:

http://www.commandprompt.com/images/...olphin_500.jpg

Is that available in a higher res version, I'd really like it as a
background on my 1600x1200 desktop.
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
joining column's datatypes do not match

[Scott Holmes]

Andrew L. Gould wrote:

On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:04 pm, Sean Chittenden wrote:

I think the below just about says it all:

http://www.commandprompt.com/images/...olphin_500.jpg

Not exactly the kind of image I'd like to project, especially since I
care about dolphins (at least non-iconified dolphins)

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Holmes http://sholmes.ws
http://pages.sbcglobal.net/scottholmes
sc*********@sbcglobal.net

Independent Programmer/Analyst Passport 4GL
PHP HTML Composer PostgreSQL Informix 4GL, SQL
---------------------------------------------------------------------
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
than are dreamt of in your philosophy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to ma*******@postgresql.org

[Joshua D. Drake]

Hello,

We own the copyright. I would not be opposed to putting it on a shirt.

J
Sean Chittenden wrote:

I think the below just about says it all:

http://www.commandprompt.com/images/...olphin_500.jpg

Hey Josh, what about some t-shirts with this on the back and some
snappy verbiage above/below the image? Just a thought, but maybe
that's something the advocacy team could run with depending on who
owns the copyright to the image. -sc

--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
[phone] - [e-mail] - http://www.commandprompt.com
The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?

http://archives.postgresql.org

[Dennis Gearon]

I think in the interest of good neighborliness that something be put in
the image like the elephant winking, and/or, the dolphin saying, "we
sure have fun playing together", or a overlaid byline like, "Another
open source domination theme debunked", or whatever.

Just my $0.02 and 0.56 rubles.

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Hello,

We own the copyright. I would not be opposed to putting it on a shirt.

J
Sean Chittenden wrote:

I think the below just about says it all:

http://www.commandprompt.com/images/...olphin_500.jpg

Hey Josh, what about some t-shirts with this on the back and some
snappy verbiage above/below the image? Just a thought, but maybe
that's something the advocacy team could run with depending on who
owns the copyright to the image. -sc

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings

[Steve Crawford]

On Thursday 18 September 2003 2:45 pm, Scott Holmes wrote:

Andrew L. Gould wrote:

On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:04 pm, Sean Chittenden wrote:

I think the below just about says it all:

http://www.commandprompt.com/images/..._dolphin_500.j
pg

Not exactly the kind of image I'd like to project, especially since
I care about dolphins (at least non-iconified dolphins)

More to the point, why is it deemed necessary to equate PostgreSQL
with MySQL? Constantly doing that creates the image that the two are
somehow comparable products (and that PostgreSQL has an inferiority
complex).

BMW might compare its cars to Mercedes or other cars percieved to be
in the "luxury class" but it would never compare them to Ford or
Hyundai - to do so would create the impression that BMW and Hyundai
are in the same class. PostgreSQL should do the same.

I think the much more effective pitch is the dismissive one: sure, you
can get a lot done with MySQL - it will probably work fine for many
projects...Oh, but what about true transactions - are you ever going
to need those? Or bulletproof reliability? Or true MVCC? Have you
looked into the license restrictions? We just wanted you to know that
when you run into these issues in MySQL, we'll be here for you.

Meanwhile, if we want to pick a fight we should at least pick one with
a database in our own class.

Cheers,
Steve
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to ma*******@postgresql.org

[Joshua D. Drake]

Hello,

O.k. boys here ya go:

http://www.cafeshops.com/linuxports

Sincerely,

Joshua Drake
scott.marlowe wrote:

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Hello,

I think the below just about says it all:

http://www.commandprompt.com/images/...olphin_500.jpg

Is that available in a higher res version, I'd really like it as a
background on my 1600x1200 desktop.
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
joining column's datatypes do not match

--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
[phone] - [e-mail] - http://www.commandprompt.com
The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings

[Dennis Gearon]

LOL, good points!

OTOH, until we fix some of the problems we have been talking about in
the last week, we are kind of BETWEEN mysql and other databases.

Postgres is far better than Mysql, though, not a near cousin.

Steve Crawford wrote:

On Thursday 18 September 2003 2:45 pm, Scott Holmes wrote:

Andrew L. Gould wrote:

On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:04 pm, Sean Chittenden wrote:
> I think the below just about says it all:
>
>http://www.commandprompt.com/images/..._dolphin_500.j
>pg
>
>

Not exactly the kind of image I'd like to project, especially since
I care about dolphins (at least non-iconified dolphins)

More to the point, why is it deemed necessary to equate PostgreSQL
with MySQL? Constantly doing that creates the image that the two are
somehow comparable products (and that PostgreSQL has an inferiority
complex).

BMW might compare its cars to Mercedes or other cars percieved to be
in the "luxury class" but it would never compare them to Ford or
Hyundai - to do so would create the impression that BMW and Hyundai
are in the same class. PostgreSQL should do the same.

I think the much more effective pitch is the dismissive one: sure, you
can get a lot done with MySQL - it will probably work fine for many
projects...Oh, but what about true transactions - are you ever going
to need those? Or bulletproof reliability? Or true MVCC? Have you
looked into the license restrictions? We just wanted you to know that
when you run into these issues in MySQL, we'll be here for you.

Meanwhile, if we want to pick a fight we should at least pick one with
a database in our own class.

Cheers,
Steve
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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[Joshua D. Drake]

Hello,

I would agree with you from a technical perspective but the reality is
the most used Open Source
databases are MySQL and PostgreSQL so there is a logical comparison.

Sincerley,

Joshua Drake
Steve Crawford wrote:

On Thursday 18 September 2003 2:45 pm, Scott Holmes wrote:

Andrew L. Gould wrote:

On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:04 pm, Sean Chittenden wrote:
> I think the below just about says it all:
>
>http://www.commandprompt.com/images/..._dolphin_500.j
>pg
>
>

Not exactly the kind of image I'd like to project, especially since
I care about dolphins (at least non-iconified dolphins)

More to the point, why is it deemed necessary to equate PostgreSQL
with MySQL? Constantly doing that creates the image that the two are
somehow comparable products (and that PostgreSQL has an inferiority
complex).

BMW might compare its cars to Mercedes or other cars percieved to be
in the "luxury class" but it would never compare them to Ford or
Hyundai - to do so would create the impression that BMW and Hyundai
are in the same class. PostgreSQL should do the same.

I think the much more effective pitch is the dismissive one: sure, you
can get a lot done with MySQL - it will probably work fine for many
projects...Oh, but what about true transactions - are you ever going
to need those? Or bulletproof reliability? Or true MVCC? Have you
looked into the license restrictions? We just wanted you to know that
when you run into these issues in MySQL, we'll be here for you.

Meanwhile, if we want to pick a fight we should at least pick one with
a database in our own class.

Cheers,
Steve
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to ma*******@postgresql.org

--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
[phone] - [e-mail] - http://www.commandprompt.com
The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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[Joshua D. Drake]

Hello,

MySQL has over 15 million dollars in capital. We have comics.

Sincerely,

Joshua Drake
Dennis Gearon wrote:

I think in the interest of good neighborliness that something be put
in the image like the elephant winking, and/or, the dolphin saying,
"we sure have fun playing together", or a overlaid byline like,
"Another open source domination theme debunked", or whatever.

Just my $0.02 and 0.56 rubles.

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Hello,

We own the copyright. I would not be opposed to putting it on a shirt.

J
Sean Chittenden wrote:

I think the below just about says it all:

http://www.commandprompt.com/images/...olphin_500.jpg


Hey Josh, what about some t-shirts with this on the back and some
snappy verbiage above/below the image? Just a thought, but maybe
that's something the advocacy team could run with depending on who
owns the copyright to the image. -sc

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings

--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
[phone] - [e-mail] - http://www.commandprompt.com
The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

[Christopher Browne]

se**@chittenden.org (Sean Chittenden) writes:

I think the below just about says it all:

http://www.commandprompt.com/images/...olphin_500.jpg

Hey Josh, what about some t-shirts with this on the back and some
snappy verbiage above/below the image? Just a thought, but maybe
that's something the advocacy team could run with depending on who
owns the copyright to the image. -sc

I'm not sure this presents quite the right message.

A coworker made the snide remark that anyone that doesn't totally "get
it" is likely to really wonder about the notion of roasting a dolphin
over a spit.

Roasting dolphins over the fire isn't exactly politically correct, and
the only people that could "get it" as being funny are those that are
in the advocacy group.

And I thought that MySQL _wasn't_ the real competition, and that the
PostgreSQL community had higher standards and such...

(Note, I say this all as one of the politically-incorrect people that
find jokes involving furry creatures being blown up to be outrageously
funny at some weird visceral level.)
--
"cbbrowne","@","libertyrms.info"
<http://dev6.int.libertyrms.com/>
Christopher Browne
[phone] x124 (land)

[Nigel J. Andrews]

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Dennis Gearon wrote:

I think in the interest of good neighborliness that something be put in
the image like the elephant winking, and/or, the dolphin saying, "we
sure have fun playing together", or a overlaid byline like, "Another
open source domination theme debunked", or whatever.

Just my $0.02 and 0.56 rubles.

Oh come off it! Surely 2 cents is worth more than 0.56 rubles!
--
Nigel J. Andrews
....who gave up counting at one stage and started using notes in units of "a
wodge".
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to ma*******@postgresql.org

[Anthony Best]

Nigel J. Andrews wrote:

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Dennis Gearon wrote:

I think in the interest of good neighborliness that something be put in
the image like the elephant winking, and/or, the dolphin saying, "we
sure have fun playing together", or a overlaid byline like, "Another
open source domination theme debunked", or whatever.

Just my $0.02 and 0.56 rubles.

Oh come off it! Surely 2 cents is worth more than 0.56 rubles!

as of 2003.09.18 23:15:31 GMT
$0.02 USD == 0.610182 RUR
:P

--
Anthony Best <ab***@digitalflex.net>
Consultant, DigitalFlex LLC
801-541-5013

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

[scott.marlowe]

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Steve Crawford wrote:

On Thursday 18 September 2003 2:45 pm, Scott Holmes wrote:

Andrew L. Gould wrote:

On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:04 pm, Sean Chittenden wrote:
>> I think the below just about says it all:
>>
>>http://www.commandprompt.com/images/..._dolphin_500.j
>>pg
Not exactly the kind of image I'd like to project, especially since
I care about dolphins (at least non-iconified dolphins)

More to the point, why is it deemed necessary to equate PostgreSQL
with MySQL? Constantly doing that creates the image that the two are
somehow comparable products (and that PostgreSQL has an inferiority
complex).

I think that MySQL and Postgresql tend to occupy different problem
solution spaces. There's some overlap, but generally, I recommend MySQL
for CMS stuff, where multiple collations and built in full text indexing
are needed, and where you don't want to have to worry about tuning or
maintaining the database to get good performance. These are situations
where writes are heavily outnumbered by reads, and MySQL seems a good fit.

Postgresql is better for doing things with numbers, transactions, complex
data sets, and environments where writes make up a large portion of what
the database is doing.

Unfortunately, MySQL is busily trying to market themselves into the space
that Postgresql is so much better at, and they're doing a pretty good job
of it.

While I wouldn't wear the Elephant roasting a Dolphin TShirt to while
trying to make a "sale" of Postgresql over MySQL, I'd certainly wear it
around some of my LUG buddies, who would likely "get it".

A lot of my friends think I'm a MySQL bigot, even though when I'm
comparing MySQL to Postgresql, I'm generally pointing out one wart in
Postgresql for each one in MySQL. The lack of multiple locale support
within a single cluster, lack of an integrated vacuum method, need for
more sysadmin skill / time in maintenance and tuning, slow aggregate
performance, etc...

But often, all they're hearing are the negatives MySQL has if I'm
comparing. Why? Because they've had smoke blown up their orifices about
how great MySQL is and how it can do anything Postgresql can do now that
it has innodb tables. Why have they heard this so much? MySQL has the
budget to keep putting out press releases and paying for more people to
give speeches than Postgresql.

And MySQL doesn't fight fair in my opinion.

they still claim to have ACID compliance, an issue I've discussed with a
few of the folks from MySQL AB. To them, the C in ACID only implies fk
constraints. The fact that they ignore base type constraints (i.e. insert
8 billion into an int4 and it just sets the field to the max value an int4
can hold (2gig) and generates no error seems to not bother them.

Well, it bothers me, and it should bother their users, but they gloss
right over their own warts while pointing out ours.

To this day their crashme suite lists the maximum query size of Postgresql
as 16 Megs. I've told them many times it's not limited. Have they
changed it? No. Why? Because it looks a lot better to say MySQL has a
maximum query size of 1 meg versus 16 meg for pgsql than to admit that
it's their 1 meg versus our UNLIMITED.

While I'm not sure the TShirts are the answer, I would gladly wear one to
a LUG meeting in order to be a lightening rod for questions about pgsql.
and if it generates discussion and someone finds out they've been LIED to
by MySQL AB, all the better.
BMW might compare its cars to Mercedes or other cars percieved to be
in the "luxury class" but it would never compare them to Ford or
Hyundai - to do so would create the impression that BMW and Hyundai
are in the same class. PostgreSQL should do the same.
But we don't have the luxury of Mercedes of already owning a large chunk
of the market, and MySQL already spends a fair amount of effort targeting
us. Like it or not, many folks DO compare us to them, and will continue
to do so until they have been enlightened.
I think the much more effective pitch is the dismissive one: sure, you
can get a lot done with MySQL - it will probably work fine for many
projects...Oh, but what about true transactions - are you ever going
to need those? Or bulletproof reliability? Or true MVCC? Have you
looked into the license restrictions? We just wanted you to know that
when you run into these issues in MySQL, we'll be here for you.
I think the best response is the informed one. And the fair and level
headed one.

Sure, MySQL is a great storage subsystem for text and web content. I
wouldn't use it to run the payroll though, and here's why...
Meanwhile, if we want to pick a fight we should at least pick one with
a database in our own class.

I think MySQL is in our class in some ways, and we're in Oracle's class in
many ways. What matters is not what class we and they are in, but what
class we and they are PERCEIVED to be in. And most average users equate
us as being similar, because they don't know better. Pointing out where
each database is strong, while making it clear that Postgresql is the
heavy lifting winner is my approach, and it works quite well.

The worse thing that can happen for Postgresql is for someone to move an
application from MySQL to Postgresql if that application is better suited
to MySQL. and those applications exist. Being honest and fair will win
hearts and minds, and when they need the Saturn 4 instead of the Estes
rocket, they'll remember who to come to.
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
joining column's datatypes do not match

[Andrew L. Gould]

On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:45 pm, Scott Holmes wrote:

Andrew L. Gould wrote:

On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:04 pm, Sean Chittenden wrote:

I think the below just about says it all:

http://www.commandprompt.com/images/...olphin_500.jpg

Not exactly the kind of image I'd like to project, especially since I
care about dolphins (at least non-iconified dolphins)

We're among friends; and, quite frankly, I needed a good laugh today. I don't
think any of us plan run the image up a flag pole.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?

http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html

[Tom Lane]

"scott.marlowe" <sc***********@ihs.com> writes:

... Being honest and fair will win
hearts and minds, and when they need the Saturn 4 instead of the Estes
rocket, they'll remember who to come to.

I like this analogy, though maybe you've overstretched. Perhaps:

MySQL = Estes. Put in InnoDB, and you have a D engine ... but it's
still a model rocket.

Postgres = Titan II. Can boost LEO missions or small interplanetary
probes. Never mind its ICBM heritage ;-)

Oracle = Saturn IV. Can take you to the moon ... if you can afford
the price tag.

regards, tom lane

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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[Oleg Bartunov]

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Hello,

I think the below just about says it all:

http://www.commandprompt.com/images/...olphin_500.jpg
Cool !

Sincerely,

Joshua Drake

Regards,
Oleg
__________________________________________________ ___________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: ol**@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: [phone]

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?

http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html

[Oleg Bartunov]

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003, Andrew L. Gould wrote:

On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:45 pm, Scott Holmes wrote:

Andrew L. Gould wrote:

On Thursday 18 September 2003 04:04 pm, Sean Chittenden wrote:
>> I think the below just about says it all:
>>
>>http://www.commandprompt.com/images/...olphin_500.jpg
Not exactly the kind of image I'd like to project, especially since I
care about dolphins (at least non-iconified dolphins)

We're among friends; and, quite frankly, I needed a good laugh today. I don't
think any of us plan run the image up a flag pole.

Exactly my impression. Good laugh and gigh spirits for this day.


---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?

http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html

Regards,
Oleg
__________________________________________________ ___________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: ol**@sai.msu.su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: [phone]

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
joining column's datatypes do not match

[Ron Johnson]

On Fri, 2003-09-19 at 00:30, Tom Lane wrote:

"scott.marlowe" <sc***********@ihs.com> writes:

... Being honest and fair will win
hearts and minds, and when they need the Saturn 4 instead of the Estes
rocket, they'll remember who to come to.
I like this analogy, though maybe you've overstretched. Perhaps:

MySQL = Estes. Put in InnoDB, and you have a D engine ... but it's
still a model rocket.

Postgres = Titan II. Can boost LEO missions or small interplanetary
probes. Never mind its ICBM heritage ;-)

All US (government) and Soviet/Russian rockets have ICBM roots.
Oracle = Saturn IV. Can take you to the moon ... if you can afford
the price tag.

What's a Saturn IV? Do you mean the Saturn V?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr. ro***********@cox.net
Jefferson, LA USA

The difference between Rock&Roll and Country Music?
Old Rockers still on tour are pathetic, but old Country singers
are still great.
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
joining column's datatypes do not match

[Martin Marques]

El Jue 18 Sep 2003 20:34, scott.marlowe escribió:

they still claim to have ACID compliance, an issue I've discussed with a
few of the folks from MySQL AB. To them, the C in ACID only implies fk
constraints. The fact that they ignore base type constraints (i.e. insert
8 billion into an int4 and it just sets the field to the max value an int4
can hold (2gig) and generates no error seems to not bother them.

You mean that when they hit the limit, all other inserts have the MAX value?
That would be terrible!

--
09:05:01 up 28 days, 55 min, 2 users, load average: 1.25, 0.60, 0.38
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Martín Marqués | mm******@unl.edu.ar
Programador, Administrador, DBA | Centro de Telematica
Universidad Nacional
del Litoral
-----------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?

http://archives.postgresql.org

[Robert Treat]

On Thu, 2003-09-18 at 19:34, scott.marlowe wrote:

Meanwhile, if we want to pick a fight we should at least pick one with
a database in our own class.

I think MySQL is in our class in some ways, and we're in Oracle's class in
many ways. What matters is not what class we and they are in, but what
class we and they are PERCEIVED to be in. And most average users equate
us as being similar, because they don't know better. Pointing out where
each database is strong, while making it clear that Postgresql is the
heavy lifting winner is my approach, and it works quite well.

We can't change the perception of being in mysql's class by always
comparing ourselves to them. I think discussion that is initiated by us
should focus on comparisons to oracle,db2,informix,m$. We only need to
compare ourselves to mysql in response to other questioning us about
them, and when we do try to stick to technical considerations as much as
possible.

Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

[scott.marlowe]

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote:

On Fri, 2003-09-19 at 00:30, Tom Lane wrote:

"scott.marlowe" <sc***********@ihs.com> writes:

... Being honest and fair will win
hearts and minds, and when they need the Saturn 4 instead of the Estes
rocket, they'll remember who to come to.

I like this analogy, though maybe you've overstretched. Perhaps:

MySQL = Estes. Put in InnoDB, and you have a D engine ... but it's
still a model rocket.

Postgres = Titan II. Can boost LEO missions or small interplanetary
probes. Never mind its ICBM heritage ;-)

All US (government) and Soviet/Russian rockets have ICBM roots.

Oracle = Saturn IV. Can take you to the moon ... if you can afford
the price tag.

What's a Saturn IV? Do you mean the Saturn V?

http://www.aviation-central.com/space/usm50.htm
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TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings

[scott.marlowe]

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003, Martin Marques wrote:

El Jue 18 Sep 2003 20:34, scott.marlowe escribió:

they still claim to have ACID compliance, an issue I've discussed with a
few of the folks from MySQL AB. To them, the C in ACID only implies fk
constraints. The fact that they ignore base type constraints (i.e. insert
8 billion into an int4 and it just sets the field to the max value an int4
can hold (2gig) and generates no error seems to not bother them.

You mean that when they hit the limit, all other inserts have the MAX value?
That would be terrible!

Yes it would. And it's exacly how MySQL works:

lookee here:

mysql> create table test (i1 int, i2 numeric(6,2) not null);
Query OK, 0 rows affected (0.01 sec)

mysql> insert into test values (12345678901234,123456.23);
Query OK, 1 row affected (0.01 sec)

mysql> select * from test;
+------------+----------+
| i1 | i2 |
+------------+----------+
| 2147483647 | 99999.99 |
+------------+----------+
1 row in set (0.00 sec)

Hey, nice database to run payroll on, huh? Happens with innodb tables
too. So how can they logically claim the C in ACID, when the data I put
in is not the data that got inserted? What's the word to describe that
behaviour? Inconsistent. :-)
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TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?

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[scott.marlowe]

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003, scott.marlowe wrote:

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote:

On Fri, 2003-09-19 at 00:30, Tom Lane wrote:

"scott.marlowe" <sc***********@ihs.com> writes:
> ... Being honest and fair will win
> hearts and minds, and when they need the Saturn 4 instead of the Estes
> rocket, they'll remember who to come to.

I like this analogy, though maybe you've overstretched. Perhaps:

MySQL = Estes. Put in InnoDB, and you have a D engine ... but it's
still a model rocket.

Postgres = Titan II. Can boost LEO missions or small interplanetary
probes. Never mind its ICBM heritage ;-)

All US (government) and Soviet/Russian rockets have ICBM roots.

Oracle = Saturn IV. Can take you to the moon ... if you can afford
the price tag.

What's a Saturn IV? Do you mean the Saturn V?

http://www.aviation-central.com/space/usm50.htm

That's not the best URL, here's a better one:

http://www.space.com/news/a11_nomanmissions.html

Basically, the Saturn IV was the third stage of the Saturn V rocket if I
read that correctly, and the one that made the final boost to escape
from LEO to go to the moon. Oddly enough, it appears the stages were
named Saturn IC (first stage), II(second stage) and IV (third stage), with
no III I could see.
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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[Richard Welty]

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:49:32 -0600 (MDT) "scott.marlowe" <sc***********@ihs.com> wrote:

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote:

What's a Saturn IV? Do you mean the Saturn V?

http://www.aviation-central.com/space/usm50.htm

actually, may i suggeset

http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/saturnv.htm

there actually was a design for a "Saturn IV" (really called a Saturn C4,
the contemporary Saturn C5 became the Saturn V, and development of the C4
was dropped) see

http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/saturnc.htm)

this is awfully off topic, but here is a web page i've been working on
sporadically now for a couple of months that rocketheads may find
interesting:

http://www.averillpark.net/space/booster.html

I would suggest that if Tom wanted to use the rocket analogy, he might want
to compare PostgreSQL to maybe a contemporary Atlas 5 medium configuration.
the Titan II is quite old now and there's only one more launch scheduled.

cheers,
richard
--
Richard Welty rw****@averillpark.net
Averill Park Networking 518-573-7592
Java, PHP, PostgreSQL, Unix, Linux, IP Network Engineering, Security

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TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings

[Tom Lane]

Richard Welty <rw****@averillpark.net> writes:

http://www.averillpark.net/space/booster.html I would suggest that if Tom wanted to use the rocket analogy, he might want
to compare PostgreSQL to maybe a contemporary Atlas 5 medium configuration.
the Titan II is quite old now and there's only one more launch scheduled.

Sheesh. This is what I get for making an off-the-cuff analogy without
researching it first, I guess ;-)

For the record, I did mean Saturn V, not IV.

regards, tom lane

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TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend

[Ron Johnson]

On Thu, 2003-09-18 at 17:15, Christopher Browne wrote:

se**@chittenden.org (Sean Chittenden) writes: [snip] A coworker made the snide remark that anyone that doesn't totally "get
it" is likely to really wonder about the notion of roasting a dolphin
over a spit.

Roasting dolphins over the fire isn't exactly politically correct, and
the only people that could "get it" as being funny are those that are
in the advocacy group.
When I saw the image, I had to check at mysql.com to ensure that
the dolphin actually *is* the MySQL mascot.

[snip] (Note, I say this all as one of the politically-incorrect people that
find jokes involving furry creatures being blown up to be outrageously
funny at some weird visceral level.)

http://www.geekswithguns.com/

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr. ro***********@cox.net
Jefferson, LA USA

"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer
arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
Bertrand Meyer
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TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
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[Jan Wieck]

Richard Welty wrote:

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:49:32 -0600 (MDT) "scott.marlowe" <sc***********@ihs.com> wrote:

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote:

> What's a Saturn IV? Do you mean the Saturn V?

http://www.aviation-central.com/space/usm50.htm

actually, may i suggeset

http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/saturnv.htm

there actually was a design for a "Saturn IV" (really called a Saturn C4,
the contemporary Saturn C5 became the Saturn V, and development of the C4
was dropped) see

http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/saturnc.htm)

this is awfully off topic, but here is a web page i've been working on
sporadically now for a couple of months that rocketheads may find
interesting:

http://www.averillpark.net/space/booster.html

I would suggest that if Tom wanted to use the rocket analogy, he might want
to compare PostgreSQL to maybe a contemporary Atlas 5 medium configuration.
the Titan II is quite old now and there's only one more launch scheduled.

Whereas despite the crashes, the Space Shuttle with it's
Add-On-Collection look alike is yet most popular ;-)
Jan
cheers,
richard

--
#================================================= =====================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#================================================= = Ja******@Yahoo.com #
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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[Gaetano Mendola]

Jan Wieck wrote:

Richard Welty wrote:

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:49:32 -0600 (MDT) "scott.marlowe"
<sc***********@ihs.com> wrote:

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003, Ron Johnson wrote:

> What's a Saturn IV? Do you mean the Saturn V?

http://www.aviation-central.com/space/usm50.htm

actually, may i suggeset

http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/saturnv.htm

there actually was a design for a "Saturn IV" (really called a Saturn C4,
the contemporary Saturn C5 became the Saturn V, and development of the C4
was dropped) see

http://www.astronautix.com/lvfam/saturnc.htm)

this is awfully off topic, but here is a web page i've been working on
sporadically now for a couple of months that rocketheads may find
interesting:

http://www.averillpark.net/space/booster.html

I would suggest that if Tom wanted to use the rocket analogy, he might
want
to compare PostgreSQL to maybe a contemporary Atlas 5 medium
configuration.
the Titan II is quite old now and there's only one more launch scheduled.

Whereas despite the crashes, the Space Shuttle with it's
Add-On-Collection look alike is yet most popular ;-)

BTW this weekend we are going to launch a new satellite using
ariane V rockets ( http://www.satexpo.it/en/news-new.php/1?c=6531 )
this mean more users and more stress for our Postgres installation :-)

http://www.arianespace.com/site/news...ate_index.html

some pictures here:

http://66.33.199.225/image_library/i...sub_index.html


Regards
Gaetano Mendola



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TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings

[Joshua D. Drake]

Hello,

All due respect to everyone but political correctness is essentially
the living with the feeling that you are a politician.
I am not a politician, neither is Command Prompt. We are a business, we
have opinions, views and a sense of humor.
These traits may or may not be representative of other people's views,
opinions and or sense of humor. If it is not
to your liking, don't view it, and don't purchase a shirt of mug.

Personally I have no problem standing up and saying, we going to eat
you alive because in my not so humble opinion,
and my very business plan states that our purpose is insure that
PostgreSQL is the number one choice for database use
in the small to medium size business. If that means I upset some people
along the way... well I am not a politician, I don't
have to make everybody happy.

Cheers!

Joshua D. Drake
Ron Johnson wrote:

On Thu, 2003-09-18 at 17:15, Christopher Browne wrote:

se**@chittenden.org (Sean Chittenden) writes:

[snip]

A coworker made the snide remark that anyone that doesn't totally "get
it" is likely to really wonder about the notion of roasting a dolphin
over a spit.

Roasting dolphins over the fire isn't exactly politically correct, and
the only people that could "get it" as being funny are those that are
in the advocacy group.

When I saw the image, I had to check at mysql.com to ensure that
the dolphin actually *is* the MySQL mascot.

[snip]

(Note, I say this all as one of the politically-incorrect people that
find jokes involving furry creatures being blown up to be outrageously
funny at some weird visceral level.)

http://www.geekswithguns.com/

--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
[phone] - [e-mail] - http://www.commandprompt.com
The most reliable support for the most reliable Open Source database.

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