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Postgress and MYSQL

To whom it may concern:

I find the recent articles in various trade publications a little
disturbing due to the lack of PostgrSQL mention. I continue to see
articles about how IBM may be considering MYSQL for development an
open_source web database.

Why isn't PostgreSQL being considered or talked about by major industry
giants? As a DBA I know that Postgres is far superior to MYSQL but if
the industry directs it's energies towards open-source database this
coming year I think somehow PostgreSQL needs to be represented better.
Bob Powell
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Nov 22 '05
67 12588
Matt Davies wrote:
2. Documentation: In delving deeper into the Postgress database I
have tried to find whatever I can to learn more. I have found an
Oreilly book out there, but the TOC reads almost the exact same as
the online documentation. I ask myself - have they lifted the
documentation and are now trying to sell me it bound in book form?
MySQL did the same for a while, but it was the other books- problem
solving, examples, programming, etc.. that really helped MySQL
adoption IMO.


http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/books.html
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Nov 22 '05 #11
1. Replication: Like it or not most people regard their data and access to their
data as 'invaluable'. If not, why are they storing it. Having a secondary
server (read slaves) on which you can perform backups, load balance RO traffic,
and eventually use as a failover has been one of the great selling points of
MySQL for my specific applications. I wish there were a Master-Master
replication scheme out there, but that is not the case.
Replication exists in multiple manners for PostgreSQL. There is Mammoth
replicator (our product),
ErServer (pgsql.com's product), dbmirror, Rserv, and pgCluster.
2. Documentation: In delving deeper into the Postgress database I have tried to
find whatever I can to learn more. I have found an Oreilly book out there, but
the TOC reads almost the exact same as the online documentation. I ask myself -
have they lifted the documentation and are now trying to sell me it bound in
book form?
I am sorry but I am the co-author of that book and I can tell you the
only thing in that
book that reads like the documentation is the reference chapter and the
appendixes.
Not to mention that PostgreSQL.Org has some of the most complete
documentation
of any software out there.

There are also several books on PostgreSQL including the O'Reilly one,
the Addison
Wesley one, the Sams one... and I think even a PTR one.
MySQL marketing has done much to help the average database user out there feel
like they are getting a powerful and feature-rich database. The average user
out there is doing nothing more than address books and recipe books. They,

MySQL has what 19 million in the bank?
I have ranted about this for a point. It is not what the seasoned 20 year UNIX
veteran knows about a database/OS that really matters in terms of adoption - it
is what the general mass of people __THINKS__ matters. They are becoming ever
present in high levels of decision making functions. Perception is the key.
This is very true. Perception is the key.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake
My $0.02.


Quoting Dustin Sallings <du****@spy.net >:
On Jan 14, 2004, at 0:08, An************* @loteco.ru wrote:
around. To make PG known there should be more and more products that
relay on PG. And this should be not Banking or other mission critical
projects. It should be a simple forums, picture bases i do not know

This is very insightful. mySQL is not popular in the enterprise
because it's known to solve big problems, but because it's known to
solve little ones. It seems so wrong, but makes so much sense.

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Nov 22 '05 #12
Ben
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Not to mention that PostgreSQL.Org has some of the most complete
documentation
of any software out there.


Yes, I don't understand why people seem to keep complaining about
Postgres' documentation - it is by far the best reference documentation
I've ever come across.

Maybe it's that there isn't much tutorial content in the documentation -
for somebody trying to learn how to do SQL in the first place, it's not
going to hold your hand and I could see how that will turn off newbies.

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Nov 22 '05 #13

On Jan 14, 2004, at 10:18, Matt Davies wrote:
1. Replication: Like it or not most people regard their data and
access to their
data as 'invaluable'. If not, why are they storing it. Having a
secondary
I'm not the only person who has used this same argument against mySQL
installs. There is a huge understanding problem here. Sure, so you're
replicating your data...that doesn't mean you're storing what you think
you're storing, or transactionally safe, or consistent, etc...
server (read slaves) on which you can perform backups, load balance RO
traffic,
and eventually use as a failover has been one of the great selling
points of
MySQL for my specific applications. I wish there were a Master-Master
replication scheme out there, but that is not the case.


You don't need a replicate to perform a backup in general. mySQL
imposed this requirement, but a replicate shouldn't be used that way.
Load balancing, perhaps...failo ver, maybe.

In my experience with really good replication systems (sybase's rep
server), we didn't really use replication this way. We had a replicate
going to a DSS system which was indexed and used differently, and we
had a replicate going to a ``warm'' standby which we would use for some
read-only queries. Its original purpose was to use as a failover
system, but it was rarely used this way, even when there were
catastrophic database problems. The reason is simple. If something
broke the DB, it would be plain irresponsible to swap out the DB server
for another one that is (as far as we know) just as likely to break for
the same reason leaving us stranded. Breaking replication required
rematerializati on of the master after brining it back online, which was
an expensive process that left us without a spare for several hours.
So it was the DBAs' job to spend some time during any database failure
to determine the cause and solution. Occasionally that meant swapping
to the other DB, but that process was never automated (well, no more
than being a script a DBA would run whenever he determined it
necessary).

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Nov 22 '05 #14
Quoting "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprom pt.com>:
Replication exists in multiple manners for PostgreSQL. There is Mammoth
replicator (our product),
ErServer (pgsql.com's product), dbmirror, Rserv, and pgCluster.


What I meant was integrated replication. When adding more layers to the database
there is yet one more possible mechanism for failure at some point. I don't
know about you, but Murphy always bites me in the butt. In addition, I found
your product VERY interesting, but it kinda puts me off that it is starting at
$1000. PG is free, MySQL is not (for my purposes) and costs ~$500 with
everything in one tried and true package.

MySQL has what 19 million in the bank?


I only point out what the userbase is feeling. I have never been attacked as an
idiot when using MySQL - I have always had helpful responses instead of "RTFM"
as I have seen and experienced here (and with qmail). To many people starting
the decision making process one looks at the type of support and how the group
makes you feel. You don't risk the company or project on potential hostility.

This is very true. Perception is the key.


Again, I point out, PERCEPTION is the key. This can be done regardless of the
cash stash in the bank.
Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


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Nov 22 '05 #15
Quoting Ben <be***@silentme dia.com>:
Yes, I don't understand why people seem to keep complaining about
Postgres' documentation - it is by far the best reference documentation
I've ever come across.

Maybe it's that there isn't much tutorial content in the documentation -
for somebody trying to learn how to do SQL in the first place, it's not
going to hold your hand and I could see how that will turn off newbies.


I agree - it is very clear and complete. I do think that tutorials will help.
Tutorials being -
1. Basic SQL (one must understand that if you want your product to go forward
you have to teach some basic fundamentals - again no barrier to entry =
(usually) no formal training)

2. General Tutorials (see above)

3. Advanced Usage Tutorials (see above, again)
Acceptance of PG could be greatly accelerated by more:
1. small projects using PG as a backend (as stated in previous thread post)
2. documenation coming from multiple sources. Don't ask me to explain why, but
one seems to equate robustness, usability, etc... with the more titles one
sees. If you go to Barnes and Noble's and look there for DB books you see the
wall of red (Oracle books), black (M$oft), blue (MySQL). I simply point out
that perception being as it is - PG is not there. I am trying to learn more and
more about it to remedy my newcomer understanding of PG. Do not read this as if
I am a newbie to DB's; I am not ignorant.

I talk of perception - if you get PG into the hands of more newbies and make
them feel good you have a viral marketing strategy that costs you no $. I fell
for it years ago with MySQL, but I have since learned. Now that I have Oracle
experience as a reference I see MySQL as lacking and trying to hoodwink me.
Most never make it out of the cloud.

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Nov 22 '05 #16

""Bob Powell"" <Bo*@hotchkiss. org> wrote in message
news:s0******** **@grpwise.hotc hkiss.org...
To whom it may concern:

I find the recent articles in various trade publications a little
disturbing due to the lack of PostgrSQL mention. I continue to see
articles about how IBM may be considering MYSQL for development an
open_source web database.

Why isn't PostgreSQL being considered or talked about by major industry
giants? As a DBA I know that Postgres is far superior to MYSQL but if
the industry directs it's energies towards open-source database this
coming year I think somehow PostgreSQL needs to be represented better.


Hear, hear!

Almost all the replies are about technical superiority. But, as we have all
seen dozens of times over, marketing trumps technology in the marketplace.

So the only "fix" is to find vocal, clear and market-savvy evangelist(s) for
Postgres. Doesn't even need to be technically savvy (probably helps if the
person isn't).

== Ezra Epostein.
Nov 22 '05 #17

A good clean replication system is not available for bsd platforms as far as
I can tell, which is the preferred OS of choice for many PG installations.
I am playing around with Erserver, but the download has to be updated from
cvs or it won't even compile (corrupted file in the distribution). It
appears to me at first glance that it is not actively being worked on,
although it may indeed work (I haven't had a chance to fully configure/test
it yet on freebsd 5).

The Erserver I downloaded is free, although I was confused also because I
found that same page that said it was $1000. I'm still not sure if the
erserver I downloaded is the only version, or if there is a commercial
version?

Chris

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Davies" <ma**@mattdavie s.net>
To: <pg***********@ postgresql.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Postgress and MYSQL

Quoting "Joshua D. Drake" <jd@commandprom pt.com>:
Replication exists in multiple manners for PostgreSQL. There is Mammoth
replicator (our product),
ErServer (pgsql.com's product), dbmirror, Rserv, and pgCluster.


What I meant was integrated replication. When adding more layers to the

database there is yet one more possible mechanism for failure at some point. I don't know about you, but Murphy always bites me in the butt. In addition, I found your product VERY interesting, but it kinda puts me off that it is starting at $1000. PG is free, MySQL is not (for my purposes) and costs ~$500 with
everything in one tried and true package.
MySQL has what 19 million in the bank?


I only point out what the userbase is feeling. I have never been attacked

as an idiot when using MySQL - I have always had helpful responses instead of "RTFM" as I have seen and experienced here (and with qmail). To many people starting the decision making process one looks at the type of support and how the group makes you feel. You don't risk the company or project on potential hostility.

This is very true. Perception is the key.


Again, I point out, PERCEPTION is the key. This can be done regardless of

the cash stash in the bank.
Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake


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Nov 22 '05 #18
Mensaje citado por Ben <be***@silentme dia.com>:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
Not to mention that PostgreSQL.Org has some of the most complete
documentation
of any software out there.


Yes, I don't understand why people seem to keep complaining about
Postgres' documentation - it is by far the best reference documentation
I've ever come across.


Not really. I just tried to look in the docs for the explicit for of a CAST
(really trying to find the link to send someone), and I just couldn't find it.
I know it's somewhere there, as I have read it before, but not even the search
engine installed in the interactive docs seem to find that doc.

Personally I think the docs are great (I learned a lot from them), but some
things are not that easy to find, even with a search engine. Compared to MySQL
online docs, PG's docs are heaven!!! :-)

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Nov 22 '05 #19
What I meant was integrated replication. When adding more layers to the database
there is yet one more possible mechanism for failure at some point. I don't
know about you, but Murphy always bites me in the butt. In addition, I found
your product VERY interesting, but it kinda puts me off that it is starting at
$1000. PG is free, MySQL is not (for my purposes) and costs ~$500 with
everything in one tried and true package.
I am sorry but MySQL is anything but a tried a true package for any
serious database stuff.
Yes it is simple, but I don't consider any database that will allow you to:

divide by zero
truncate data
ignore data type constraints

worth even 500.00.
only point out what the userbase is feeling. I have never been attacked as an
idiot when using MySQL - I have always had helpful responses instead of "RTFM"

Well first, you should always RTFM but I have never seen anyone being
treated like
an idiot on these lists and we have some pretty dumb monkeys ask
questions some times.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake
--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd@commandpromp t.com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL
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Nov 22 '05 #20

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