473,889 Members | 1,444 Online
Bytes | Software Development & Data Engineering Community
+ Post

Home Posts Topics Members FAQ

Is my MySQL Gaining ?

Dear all,

Their was a huge rore about MySQL recently for something in java functions
now theirs one more

http://www.mysql.com/doc/en/News-5.0.x.html

Does this concern anyone.

What I think is PostgreSQL would have less USP's (Uniqe Selling Points
though we dont sell) now.

What do you think yes we PostgreSQL users need some introspection.

Regards,
Vishal Kashyap.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?

http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html

Nov 12 '05
175 11565
John Sidney-Woollett wrote:
Why is everyone so concerned about how Postgres is product-placed compared
to MySQL? Do you really care whether users prefer MySQL or Postgres?
It's a natural frustration stemming from watching our fellow humans toil
needlessly. This is a study of human psycology that we all do to some
extent and when we see our value of "better product should be rewarded
more than a lesser product" there are cracks in the foundations of our
motives.

Why don't you just focus on your growing Postgres userbase, the core
product, and keep refining it (as you are). Granted you need to keep
looking around to see what other DB's offer, and keep the product fresh
and current.
Understanding the competition is usually neccessary to achieve this.
....

I just have to add that Postgres (the db, and the postgres community) is
GREAT! I'm sold on it!


Agreed.


---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
subscribe-nomail command to ma*******@postg resql.org so that your
message can get through to the mailing list cleanly

Nov 12 '05 #31
But your examples also lists things like interface libraries. For
postgresql to do that, we would have to pick specific interfaces
applications / libraries, then have them all centralize their
development/release process around the main distribution. If you can get
everyone to agree to this (and I recommend starting by picking the
official python interface), we can start down a unified path, but I
don't see it happening.

Robert Treat

On Sat, 2003-12-27 at 09:41, Dave Cramer wrote:
Regardless of the reasons, perception is reality. If we appear to be
disheveled then we are.

I would think that it should be possible to give the appearance of unity
without actually requiring a full time web-master?
Dave

On Fri, 2003-12-26 at 12:43, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, Dave Cramer wrote:
One thing that they do have over postgres is a unified experience, one
doesn't have to go to n different sites to find things, such as
interface libraries, advocacy sites, development sites, etc.


Course they don't ... cause they have one, full time, paid webmaster that
has nothing else on his plate ... one advantage to being able to control
everything is the ability to keep everything centralized ...
>
Dave

On Fri, 2003-12-26 at 11:53, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, B. van Ouwerkerk wrote:
>
> > I think I will switch to PG anywhere soon but sometimes it's hard to
> > find whatever information I need. Google is a great help but I would
> > expect it in the docs.
>
> Like ... ?
>
> ----
> Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
> Email: sc*****@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
>


--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?

http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html

Nov 12 '05 #32
22************* *@ganymede.hub. org><006201c3cc6f$ 77830fe0$93285e 3d@winxp><229
7.************* *************** **...a rdbrook.com>
<86************ @blue.stoneheng e.com>
<30************ *************** ********@mercur y.wardbrook.com >
NNTP-Posting-Host: floppy.pyrenet. fr
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: floppy.pyrenet. fr 1072563146 20740 194.250.190.2 (27 Dec 2003 22:12:26 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: ab***@pyrenet.f r
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:12:26 +0000 (UTC)
X-Original-To: pg***********@f loppy.pyrenet.f r
X-Delivered-To: pg***********@f loppy.pyrenet.f r
X-Received: from server.pyrenet. fr (server.pyrenet .fr [194.250.190.1])
by floppy.pyrenet. fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A7B521C42
for <pg***********@ floppy.pyrenet. fr>; Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:12:26 +0100 (MET)
X-Received: by server.pyrenet. fr (Postfix)
id E5D3E27C95; Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:12:25 +0100 (MET)
X-Delivered-To: pg***********@p yrenet.fr
X-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by localhost.pyren et.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7EE27C93
for <pg***********@ pyrenet.fr>; Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:12:25 +0100 (MET)
X-Received: from server.pyrenet. fr ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (server [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP
id 07090-01 for <pg***********@ pyrenet.fr>;
Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:12:24 +0100 (MET)
X-Received: from floppy.pyrenet. fr (floppy.pyrenet .fr [194.250.190.2])
by server.pyrenet. fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 145F727C81
for <pg***********@ pyrenet.fr>; Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:12:24 +0100 (MET)
X-Received: from postgresql.org (svr1.postgresq l.org [200.46.204.71])
by floppy.pyrenet. fr (Postfix) with ESMTP
id B4BC821C42; Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:12:22 +0100 (MET)
X-Original-To: pg************* *************@l oc...stgr esql.org
X-Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.or g [200.46.204.2])
by svr1.postgresql .org (Postfix) with ESMTP
id F0324D1B472; Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:12:14 +0000 (GMT)
X-Received: from svr1.postgresql .org ([200.46.204.71])
by localhost (neptune.hub.or g [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id 90104-05; Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:11:28 -0400 (AST)
X-Received: from bramble.mmrd.co m (unknown [65.217.53.66])
by svr1.postgresql .org (Postfix) with ESMTP
id A474AD1B432; Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:10:45 -0400 (AST)
X-Received: from thorn.mmrd.com (thorn.mmrd.com [172.25.10.100])
by bramble.mmrd.co m (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id hBRLQIcM009239;
Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:26:18 -0500
X-Received: from gnvex001.mmrd.c om (gnvex001.mmrd. com [192.168.3.55])
by thorn.mmrd.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id hBRMAQl10092;
Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:10:26 -0500
X-Received: from camel.mmrd.com ([172.25.5.213]) by gnvex001.mmrd.c om with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2657.72)
id XT878V5Q; Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:10:23 -0500
X-To: jo****@wardbroo k.com
X-Cc: "Randal L. Schwartz" <me****@stonehe nge.com>,
Chris Travers <ch***@travelam ericas.com>,
"Marc G. Fournier" <sc*****@postgr esql.org>, as*******@hotpo p.com,
pg***********@p ostgresql.org,
"pg***********@ postgresql.org" <pg***********@ postgresql.org>
X-In-Reply-To: <30************ *************** ********@mercur y.wardbrook.com >
X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org
X-Mailing-List: pgsql-general
X-Precedence: bulk
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at pyrenet.fr
Xref: intern1.nntp.au s1.giganews.com comp.databases. postgresql.gene ral:50997

On Sat, 2003-12-27 at 13:26, John Sidney-Woollett wrote:
It just seems that some people are becoming fixated on the number of
features implemented in either MySQL or Postgres instead of looking at the
sum total of all the parts.


I'd tend to agree given that mysql's alpha uber new java pl language
with no given release date generates this much concern on these lists,
while microsofts next version of m$ $ql $erver is planning on having
..net compatible pl's, which should give them the ability to program pl
in multiple languages (like we currently have). This is a much better
feature and coming from a company I have more faith in to deliver the
goods than mysql and their javapl.

Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
joining column's datatypes do not match

Nov 12 '05 #33
Well, I'm not suggesting that we force them to do anything, just give
the appearance of unity, this should be possible with tools available,
no?

Dave
On Sat, 2003-12-27 at 16:57, Robert Treat wrote:
But your examples also lists things like interface libraries. For
postgresql to do that, we would have to pick specific interfaces
applications / libraries, then have them all centralize their
development/release process around the main distribution. If you can get
everyone to agree to this (and I recommend starting by picking the
official python interface), we can start down a unified path, but I
don't see it happening.

Robert Treat

On Sat, 2003-12-27 at 09:41, Dave Cramer wrote:
Regardless of the reasons, perception is reality. If we appear to be
disheveled then we are.

I would think that it should be possible to give the appearance of unity
without actually requiring a full time web-master?
Dave

On Fri, 2003-12-26 at 12:43, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, Dave Cramer wrote:

> One thing that they do have over postgres is a unified experience, one
> doesn't have to go to n different sites to find things, such as
> interface libraries, advocacy sites, development sites, etc.

Course they don't ... cause they have one, full time, paid webmaster that
has nothing else on his plate ... one advantage to being able to control
everything is the ability to keep everything centralized ...

>
> Dave
>
> On Fri, 2003-12-26 at 11:53, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, B. van Ouwerkerk wrote:
> >
> > > I think I will switch to PG anywhere soon but sometimes it's hard to
> > > find whatever information I need. Google is a great help but I would
> > > expect it in the docs.
> >
> > Like ... ?
> >
> > ----
> > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
> > Email: sc*****@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664
> >

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
subscribe-nomail command to ma*******@postg resql.org so that your
message can get through to the mailing list cleanly

Nov 12 '05 #34
Regarding the importance of PostgreSQL on Windows.

For example, I am developing a hotel reservation management application
using Python and PostgreSQL (http://sourceforge.net/projects/openres). This
will only run on Linux and UNIX, so in order to get this to run on Windows,
I need to use either MySQL or Firebird. Or aI can require Cygwin. But that
is a bit over the top IMO, for a small hotel or B&B to consider, especially
because I want to run it if possible on existing equipment to keep
implimentation costs down.

Best WIshes,
Chris Travers
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

Nov 12 '05 #35
Hi all;

The problem with trying to maintain an image of unity is that PostgreSQL is
moving in a direction of being sort of like a kernel. In this sense, we
already are unified. But regarding new types, client libs, etc. then unity
is neither necessary nor desirable IMO.

If that is something that some people see here as important, maybe they can
start their own PostgreSQL "distributions. " Maybe we can link to them via
the PostgreSQL advocacy site :-)

Best Wishes,
Chris Travers

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cramer" <pg@fastcrypt.c om>
To: "Robert Treat" <xz****@users.s ourceforge.net>
Cc: "Marc G. Fournier" <sc*****@postgr esql.org>;
<pg***********@ postgresql.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 5:31 AM
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Is my MySQL Gaining ?

Well, I'm not suggesting that we force them to do anything, just give
the appearance of unity, this should be possible with tools available,
no?

Dave
On Sat, 2003-12-27 at 16:57, Robert Treat wrote:
But your examples also lists things like interface libraries. For
postgresql to do that, we would have to pick specific interfaces
applications / libraries, then have them all centralize their
development/release process around the main distribution. If you can get
everyone to agree to this (and I recommend starting by picking the
official python interface), we can start down a unified path, but I
don't see it happening.

Robert Treat

On Sat, 2003-12-27 at 09:41, Dave Cramer wrote:
Regardless of the reasons, perception is reality. If we appear to be
disheveled then we are.

I would think that it should be possible to give the appearance of unity without actually requiring a full time web-master?
Dave

On Fri, 2003-12-26 at 12:43, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, Dave Cramer wrote:
>
> > One thing that they do have over postgres is a unified experience, one > > doesn't have to go to n different sites to find things, such as
> > interface libraries, advocacy sites, development sites, etc.
>
> Course they don't ... cause they have one, full time, paid webmaster that > has nothing else on his plate ... one advantage to being able to control > everything is the ability to keep everything centralized ...
>
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > On Fri, 2003-12-26 at 11:53, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > > On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, B. van Ouwerkerk wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think I will switch to PG anywhere soon but sometimes it's hard to > > > > find whatever information I need. Google is a great help but I would > > > > expect it in the docs.
> > >
> > > Like ... ?
> > >
> > > ----
> > > Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) > > > Email: sc*****@hub.org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 > > >

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
subscribe-nomail command to ma*******@postg resql.org so that your
message can get through to the mailing list cleanly

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

Nov 12 '05 #36

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christophe r Murtagh" <ch************ *****@mcgill.ca >
Since my experience with Postgres hasn't been that it is easier than
MySQL (quite the opposite in fact), perhaps some work needs to be done to
either dispel that myth, or to make sure that Postgres is easier to use
(since I started with Postgres and learned MySQL afterwards).
When I started with PostgreSQL and MySQL, MySQL was far easier to use,
especially during the prototyping phase. I would actually do all my
prototyping on MySQL and then migrate to PostgreSQL and edit the schemas.
This was version 6.5...

Since then, PostgreSQL has removed all the obstacles I had seen towards its
use. For example, we now have ALTER TABLE DROP COLUMN, and a host of other
goodies to make it as easy to use as MySQL.

Basically, with phppgadmin and a few other tools, PostgreSQL is just as easy
to use as MySQL for the things that MySQL does. There are a few programming
issues with PHP (most notably the fact that the result sets in PHP are not
foreward only), but this is can be very useful.

Of course, learning views, new data types, etc. that MySQL doesn't have
makes the product harder to use but then MySQL can't do these things anyway.

PostgreSQL IMO has a bit of an intimidating reputation due in part to its
past lack of ease of use....

Best Wishes,
Chris Travers
I know it sucks, but ease of use/simplicity goes a long way, often
further than performance, features and stability.

Cheers,

Chris

--
Christopher Murtagh
Enterprise Systems Administrator
ISR / Web Communications Group
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec
Canada

Tel.: (514) 398-3122
Fax: (514) 398-2017
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?

http://archives.postgresql.org

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your
joining column's datatypes do not match

Nov 12 '05 #37
I am not sure if my previous email was sent, so I am trying again.

From: "Casey Allen Shobe" <cs****@softhom e.net>
You can blind yourselves to the users, but do this for long enough, and you'll discover you don't have any users, no matter how great your product might be.

This is exactly my point. A truly open source project with large community
involvement is fundamentally more responsive to user demands than a small
centralized one that releases the project under an open source license.

This hybrid approach sometimes works for a while but in the end, it does not
really work so well. We have already seen Caldera OpenLinux fall because of
such a strategy, and now, we are seeing GTK win many battles over QT for the
same reason (despite the fact that many people see QT as superior to GTK).
In fact the current success story I can see with the dual license strategy
is that of Sleepycat Software's Berkeley Database. But then it is a niche
product...

The fundamental problem is that although the 2-track approach starts out
with a larger, more vibrant community, it is harder to grow this community
because community involvement in the entire process is more limited.
We live in a very strange world where people use what they see advertised the most, or what the most of their friends have told them to use, instead of
doing actual research and making an educated decision. As a PostgreSQL user, I've had to deal with at least 20-30 MySQL nazis telling me that *I'm* the
ignorant and accursed one, whereas I've met one guy who likes PostgreSQL.


You know, this is the challenge at hand-- how to more successfully promote
PostgreSQL.

Although we should always be working to improve the database, I think that
you are right that it is not the limiting factor in competing with MySQL.
It is, however, when we are talking about competing with Oracle.

I see the work ahead to be along the following lines:

1: The development of a community-maintained curriculum for PostgreSQL. Or
at least a skill set definition that individuals can use in order to develop
the skills necessary to be considered truely competent.

2: Third parties producing PostgreSQL distributions, including client
libraries, additional PL's etc. They can then market their products and
help take some of the heat off the main advocacy site. I know that there
are already some closed-source distros out there from SRA, Command Prompt,
etc. but we also need some open source ones as well.

Maybe if I have the time. Or maybe some other consultants out there would
like to take this on as well, or at least help...

Best Wishes,
Chris Travers
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?

http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html

Nov 12 '05 #38
Chris Travers wrote:
Regarding the importance of PostgreSQL on Windows.

For example, I am developing a hotel reservation management application
using Python and PostgreSQL (http://sourceforge.net/projects/openres). This
will only run on Linux and UNIX, so in order to get this to run on Windows,
I need to use either MySQL or Firebird. Or aI can require Cygwin. But that
is a bit over the top IMO, for a small hotel or B&B to consider, especially
because I want to run it if possible on existing equipment to keep
implimentati on costs down.

Does Microsoft's "Windows Services for Unix" run Postgresql ?

I was a little surprised (but it makes sense) that Microsoft actually
ships GNU based products.

Another option is to use Linux under VMWARE and put PostgreSQL under it.

However, I'd agree that a native port to windows would be best.

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?

http://archives.postgresql.org

Nov 12 '05 #39
Sorry to jump into this late but I just had to commment...

Quoting John Sidney-Woollett <jo****@wardbro ok.com>:
That's a fair point.

I used to get the same debate from customers when they wanted M$SqlServer,
and I would always try to steer them towards Oracle (even if the starting
point DB was simple). For me this was a no brainer (having used both
products), but it sometimes took a lot of convincing even when Oracle
provided no OS lock in, reliability, scalability, good 3rd party toolsets,
and loads of consultants willing/able to support it.

I'm not sure a comparison matrix is always helpful, because on paper
products can look comparable, but can be wildly different in real use. We
all drive cars, and they get you from A to B - in a paper feature
comparison they can be made to look fairly identical, but their real life
experience can be completely different.

I guess my point was really to use an enterprise database like Oracle as a
yard stick to judge Postgres against. Although the newer versions of
Oracle are becoming bloatware, so you need to be careful!

Compare MySQL to make a case for using Postgres over MySQL, sure. I
understand why you'd want and need to do that.

It just seems that some people are becoming fixated on the number of
features implemented in either MySQL or Postgres instead of looking at the
sum total of all the parts.

John Sidney-Woollett
Extremely good point. I actually stopped using paper comparisons because in the
end its simply my word and experience against someone elses. If someone wants
to go feature by feature, I have my PG table of contents and some other
highlight points usually with me. In my
experience, I've never had a problem deploying PG- maybe it is because I've been
lucky to not get into "contests" like what I've hearing or maybe it is because
most of the chatter I encounter is with Oracle, Sybase, Informix and the MS
product. I do remember times when I have said things like, "I would not put my
company's data on MySQL or MS-SQL"
and things like, "my company's consulting app was developed on PostgreSQL and
has been in use for <number inserted here> years".

To the point- I don't make it solely about the product. That is only part of
the successful formula for building an application. You have to "sell" yourself
just as much as you have to sell the components of your solutions (if your
clients care). Truth be told, I have turned down (i.e. walked away from or
simply lost) projects based on the fact that I would NOT architect a
solution with product which I did not feel comforatable deploying.
Business-wise that might be bad thing for cash flow but in the long run, I don't
think it is. Products are not successful unless they are used and if you
politely refuse to use a particular product that, if nothing, else sends a strong
message. The way I look at it is that I probably don't want to deal with a
company that
thinks that MySQL on windows is "good environment".

Another technique that corporate folks use is get testimonials. Here is where I
think we can shine. Imagine that you are in a meeting and someone doubts the
viability of PG for whatever reason. I'd love to be able to say somethings like
this, "I will get you a list of developers and the applications they have
designed and YOU can pick who you want to get a reference from. Talk to as many
people as you need to feel comforable". That would go a long way because the
client could look for similar projects and because I am not picking the person
that is giving the testimonial, the reference is less biased.

Imagine that list containing hundreds of people from all over the world...

*grin*
I would certainly make myself available to any one in the community. AFAIK,
there was a very short list on "success stories" on advocacy or techdocs but if
the community thinks something like this would be useful then perhaps we should
"market" those stories and their authors more formally.
Randal L. Schwartz said:
>>> "John" == John Sidney-Woollett <jo****@wardbro ok.com> writes:


John> Why is everyone so concerned about how Postgres is
John> product-placed compared to MySQL? Do you really care whether
John> users prefer MySQL or Postgres?

I care, because as a consultant, I'm called in to solve other people's
problems when they most need help. And I'd rather solve problems
in PostgreSQL than farking around with MySQL.

I also am in an opportunity to be called in during the early phases of
project assessment and design. There, I have an opportunity to talk
about choice of database amongst other things. So, I need to be armed
with facts about choices, more than just anecdotes.

So this is a useful thread, for those areas of my business. Please
continue. :)

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777
0095
<me****@stonehe nge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge. com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.St onehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl
training!

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to ma*******@postg resql.org

--
Keith C. Perry, MS E.E.
Director of Networks & Applications
VCSN, Inc.
http://vcsn.com

_______________ _______________ ______
This email account is being host by:
VCSN, Inc : http://vcsn.com

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings

Nov 12 '05 #40

This thread has been closed and replies have been disabled. Please start a new discussion.

By using Bytes.com and it's services, you agree to our Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.

To disable or enable advertisements and analytics tracking please visit the manage ads & tracking page.